PowerMacs updated in late January - Page 3

[quote]Originally posted by Amorph:
<strong>
They're not overclocked AFAIK, they're just parts that beat the spec, available in enough numbers to supply Apple for their top of the line machine.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Motorola uses the prefixes "MPC" and "XPC" (among others) to denote a PPC's qualification status. MPC means the chip is fully qualified while XPC means that it is not. There was a pic on the web of the 1.25 taken after someone removed the heatsink. The prefix on the chip was XPC. IMO, this supports Amorph's statement that the current 1.25's are "freak" chips. I just wonder how many more Apple has stockpiled- they can't continue to sell them for the next 6 months with a finite quantity and they won't be able to move them down the product ladder for the same reason.

Maybe the 970 will be here by March and we will never see the '57s.

[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>Been reading up on the POWER4+ (130nm version of the POWER4) that gets to 1.45GHz and is used in IBM's 650 server. That server can take up to 8 processors, 2 processors to a card. Interesting to note is that the RAM is on the daughtercard connected via 208 pin DIMM slots, populated 4 at a time, so it looks like a NUMA architecture. The cards connect via the GX bus which is described as a derivative of the 6XX bus used on the PPC 620 and 630 (aka the POWER3). Apparently the G stands for Gigaprocessor (their words not mine).

From studying the diagram of the processor card, the memory controller is very close to the processors. The GX bus runs at 3:1 ratio of core processor speed (for a 1.45GHz machine that's 483MHz) and is 32bit (4byte) read and 32bit write. Thats good for 3.87GBps. Hmm, sounds awefully familiar... if it was scaled to 900MHz it would reach 7.2GBps...hmm

There is a faster fabric bus that runs at 2:1 ratio and is 64bit read/write and it connects to other processor modules while GX bus connects to the IO bus.

The module for the 1.45GHz model is different to the module with 1.2GHz POWER4+'s. For expample the memory controller and L3 cache are on seperate chips on the 1.45GHz card. The L3 on that one is 32MB, while on the 1.2GHz card the L3 cache (8MB) and memory controller are one chip! The RAM is DDR 200MHz (PC1600) and there are SMI chips that combine the slots into 256bit data paths to the memory controller a main reason, I suspect, that the RAM slots are on the same card as the processors.

There are similarities between GX bus and the bus described for the 970.</strong><hr></blockquote>

reference please?

[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>IBM's red paper for the 650. I gave you all the clues...

I'm sure you want a link... click the smiley
<a href="http://publib-b.boulder.ibm.com/Redbooks.nsf/RedpaperAbstracts/redp0194.html?Open" target="_blank"> :cool: </a></strong><hr></blockquote>

Thanks for the info.

[quote]Originally posted by A Random Walk:
<strong>

Motorola uses the prefixes "MPC" and "XPC" (among others) to denote a PPC's qualification status. MPC means the chip is fully qualified while XPC means that it is not. There was a pic on the web of the 1.25 taken after someone removed the heatsink. The prefix on the chip was XPC. IMO, this supports Amorph's statement that the current 1.25's are "freak" chips. I just wonder how many more Apple has stockpiled- they can't continue to sell them for the next 6 months with a finite quantity and they won't be able to move them down the product ladder for the same reason.

Maybe the 970 will be here by March and we will never see the '57s.</strong><hr></blockquote>

My 400MHz G4 says "XPC7400".

ALL Apple chips are tested against a different standard of cooling than other G4s.

"MPC" doesn't happen until years after a chip's release.

There will be a Power Mac update very soon, and it will be the last Power Mac G4.

Barto

[quote]Originally posted by Barto:
<strong>

There will be a Power Mac update very soon, and it will be the last Power Mac G4.

Barto</strong><hr></blockquote>

oooh oooh... bet it has bigger fins and more chrome... as the last G4, it needs a Moto hood ornament for people to rip off in frustration when the 970 comes out

(yes i realize that the MDD SpeedHole case probably won't change and they'll reserve the true design shift to accompany the paradigm shifts to IBM (Black Macs anyone? NeXT's sure looked good)

maybe Apple will cut a deal with Ford/Jaguar to resell all the old G4s for embedded use in exchange for use of the Jaguar name, hood ornament, and British Racing Green paint rights.

updates to FW2, BlueTooth, Airport Extreme, etc don't seem to require a case change... all mobo level or daughtercard, IIRC

but if it's truly the bye bye Moto Mac, it ought to have something special, shouldn't it?

wire hubcaps for better cooling?

let's hear or see some mockups &lt;think chrome and fins&gt;

bad signs



good signs



[ 01-20-2003: Message edited by: curiousuburb ]</p>

Well, it's getting later and later into Jan.
No special events on the horizon. Maybe no updates in Jan.

There is no way the next PowerMac should be black. PC makes finally realized that all their PCs look the same (beige), so they all switched to black. They still look the same . Here is an article called "<a href="http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,427047,00.asp" target="_blank">Black is the New Beige</a>. Sorry for being somewhat OT.

Andrew

I think the lack of iMac and Powermac updates are probably a good sign. The clue is that the iMac is over a year old without a speed bump. Why has Apple not bumped it at all?

The answer must be that they have something up their sleave and it is just a round the corner (They must have long arms). They have held off bumpig the speed of the imac when they could easily have bumped it to 1ghz before Christmas.

This must indicate that the next models of both iMacs and PM will include FW800 and bluetooth and that either...

The PM will get the 970, seems unlikely yet or that they will get the MPC7457 very soon, more likely. That would then allow the iMac to start shipping at up to 1.25ghz and give a great boost to it's sales.

We all know that Apple is very confident that they have some exciting products for this year, so I guess we need a little patience. The seems to be a body of opinion which is being largly ignored that new machines are arriving in March. I guess that as time rolls on and given the information above regarding MOTO I think we will just have to wait another 6 weeks.

<img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

Well the 7457 is supposed to be smaller and cheaper because of the die shrink, maybe the iMac and Powermacs will get the new processor at the same time. If the stats on the 57 are good, that may explain why Apple wants to delay the new desktops so they can get these processors in them. In this case, delays seem to be a good sign.

[quote]Originally posted by hotboxd:
<strong>Well the 7457 is supposed to be smaller and cheaper because of the die shrink, maybe the iMac and Powermacs will get the new processor at the same time. If the stats on the 57 are good, that may explain why Apple wants to delay the new desktops so they can get these processors in them. In this case, delays seem to be a good sign.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Agreed.

I also think the "Windtunnel" tag for current machines is a serious impediment to sales of current PM's. If the 7457 is cooler perhaps the "Windtunnel" will be behind them.

then they can change the PM nickname from windtunnel to speedholes....g

Or the 'hot air' 'power'Macs...

Lemon Bon Bon

[quote]Originally posted by Addison:
<strong>

Agreed.

I also think the "Windtunnel" tag for current machines is a serious impediment to sales of current PM's. If the 7457 is cooler perhaps the "Windtunnel" will be behind them.</strong><hr></blockquote>

If the 57 is the new G4 that I was told about with a new mobo design, then no, it won't be cooler. The G4 that is suppose to come out was due last year but wasn't released because of over heating issues. Even the vents on the MDD weren't enough to cool it. So we'll see what they release and how hot it runs.

[quote]Originally posted by KidRed:
<strong>

If the 57 is the new G4 that I was told about with a new mobo design, then no, it won't be cooler. The G4 that is suppose to come out was due last year but wasn't released because of over heating issues. Even the vents on the MDD weren't enough to cool it. So we'll see what they release and how hot it runs.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well I hope that it's not. I hope that it will be a die shrunk G4 with cooler operating temperatures.

[quote]Originally posted by Addison:
<strong>

When my IBM 970 powered PowerMac and 23" cinema display arrives I will leave these boards and get a life.</strong><hr></blockquote>

We all know better than that; it's only half true.

When you get that rig set up, you may well leave the boards, yes, but you deffinately won't be getting a life, because, well, you will have just gotten the best computer setup in the world. You won't be leaving OSX's warm glow for quite some time, and you know it.

[quote]Originally posted by Transcendental Octothorpe:
<strong>

We all know better than that; it's only half true.

When you get that rig set up, you may well leave the boards, yes, but you deffinately won't be getting a life, because, well, you will have just gotten the best computer setup in the world. You won't be leaving OSX's warm glow for quite some time, and you know it.


</strong><hr></blockquote>

You will have to find a website that utilizes 64 bit processors and needs huge amounts of computation time to render. ie the 3d version of Appleinsider, in real time only for 970 users.

Just sitting here pondering what the heck Moki's IBM sandbagging comment meant?

970 early? nawww, can't be

75X w/ Altivec? nawww, a slower G4 than Motorola's

I'm stumped.

[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>970 will be early I bet. 970+ to follow later this year or early next year.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Based on info from un-deniable sources, I concur!

I posted this in another thread, make of it what you like:

[quote]
This may mean nothing, but... colleague was just on the phone to large UK reseller, who said "all G4s towers are in contraint" ie they aren't getting deliveries.

He says this usually means changes are afoot, and that the word was that new machines are coming and that they will be X-only.

At the same time this reseller has several hundred G4s in stock - but seemed keen to knock £50.00 off some 1Ghz for us.
<hr></blockquote>

Before we all start hyperveintilating lets remember that the probability of just a speedbump of the towers is 95% or more.

Replacing the current 0.867/1.00/1.25 with something betwen 1.0/1.2/1.4 or a more optimistic 1.2-1.4-1.6 is very nice but more of step up rather than a jump or leap!

If IBM planned to have the 970 in producion during the third quarter it is more then very very optimistic to have Apple selling them in the beginning of the first quarter.

I will be very pleased if Apple can sell 970 based computers at the beginning of the third quarter
Between that time and August 2002 when the current line up came out I do expect one speedbump and the sooner the better

[quote]Originally posted by rickag:
Just sitting here pondering what the heck Moki's IBM sandbagging comment meant?
<hr></blockquote>

Which one?

[ 01-24-2003: Message edited by: ARW2 ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by ARW2:
<strong>Which one?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm only aware of the one comment. It was in one of the numerous threads on the 970 or MPC7457, I think. Because I can't get the search engine to work I can't track it down.

My impression was that moki was referring to something other than IBM's 970 and that there is another cpu IBM has been working on that [my words here: may be introduced in an Apple computer sooner than the 970].

What it would be I have no idea though. Nothing seems to fit.
An early 970 no
A G3 w/ Altivec no(that's a G4)
A G3 w/ Altivec RapidI/O etc. no - too soon for this tech

<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[ 01-24-2003: Message edited by: rickag ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by adpowers:
<strong>There is no way the next PowerMac should be black. PC makes finally realized that all their PCs look the same (beige), so they all switched to black. They still look the same . Here is an article called "<a href="http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,427047,00.asp" target="_blank">Black is the New Beige</a>. Sorry for being somewhat OT.

Andrew</strong><hr></blockquote>

Perhaps the rumoured new Apple displays swathed in crystalline gleaming transparent plastics and chrome give an indication of what the next G4 PowerMac or 970 PowerMac will look like. I can picture the existing El Capatain (sp?) case in crystalline white with chrome handles and latch (I hope there isn't that much chrome though).

[quote]Originally posted by A Random Walk:
<strong>Motorola uses the prefixes "MPC" and "XPC" (among others) to denote a PPC's qualification status.</strong><hr></blockquote>

<a href="http://e-www.motorola.com/collateral/PPCCPUPNS.gif" target="_blank">Processor Part Numbering Scheme</a>

Maybe there is a newer version I don't know.

[quote]Originally posted by RodUK:
<strong>

Perhaps the rumoured new Apple displays swathed in crystalline gleaming transparent plastics and chrome give an indication of what the next G4 PowerMac or 970 PowerMac will look like. I can picture the existing El Capatain (sp?) case in crystalline white with chrome handles and latch (I hope there isn't that much chrome though).</strong><hr></blockquote>

i believed those "mirrored doors" are the chrome you're looking for...unfortunately. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />

[quote]Originally posted by DrBoar:
<strong>Before we all start hyperveintilating lets remember that the probability of just a speedbump of the towers is 95% or more.

Replacing the current 0.867/1.00/1.25 with something betwen 1.0/1.2/1.4 or a more optimistic 1.2-1.4-1.6 is very nice but more of step up rather than a jump or leap!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Processor-wise, yes.

There are all kinds of other things Apple could do to make the PowerMacs more appealing and higher performing, though.

[quote]Originally posted by rickag:
<strong>

I'm only aware of the one comment. It was in one of the numerous threads on the 970 or MPC7457, I think. Because I can't get the search engine to work I can't track it down.

My impression was that moki was referring to something other than IBM's 970 and that there is another cpu IBM has been working on that [my words here: may be introduced in an Apple computer sooner than the 970].

What it would be I have no idea though. Nothing seems to fit.
An early 970 no
A G3 w/ Altivec no(that's a G4)
A G3 w/ Altivec RapidI/O etc. no - too soon for this tech

:confused:

[ 01-24-2003: Message edited by: rickag ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Read the naked mole rat to find out more. Gobi is next (1.6ghz IIRC) and then a MP G3 which I think will replace the consumer G4.

[ 01-24-2003: Message edited by: KidRed ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by KidRed:
<strong>Read the naked mole rat to find out more. Gobi is next (1.6ghz IIRC) and then a MP G3 which I think will replace the consumer G4.</strong><hr></blockquote>

NMR didn't mention a speed for the Gobi, however, he did mention the Mojave starting @ 1.6GHz on a 0.10µm process in 2004.

I can't believe the Gobi will clock much higher than the current G3 unless IBM changed the architecture. This could be what moki's sandbagging comment refered to, if so, I'm not impressed, especially if it doesn't include Altivec. Let's see Gobi no RapidI/O, no DDR frontside bus, clocks maybe to 1.2 - 1.3GHz, maximum FSB @ 200MHz, probably no Altivec.

I hope IBM was sandbagging something much better

[quote]Originally posted by rickag:
<strong>NMR didn't mention a speed for the Gobi, however, he did mention the Mojave starting @ 1.6GHz on a 0.10µm process in 2004.

I can't believe the Gobi will clock much higher than the current G3 unless IBM changed the architecture. This could be what moki's sandbagging comment refered to, if so, I'm not impressed, especially if it doesn't include Altivec. Let's see Gobi no RapidI/O, no DDR frontside bus, clocks maybe to 1.2 - 1.3GHz, maximum FSB @ 200MHz, probably no Altivec.

I hope IBM was sandbagging something much better </strong><hr></blockquote>

From dictionary.com:

Sandbagging
To downplay or misrepresent one's ability in a game or activity in order to deceive (someone), especially in gambling: sandbagged the pool player by playing poorly in the first game when stakes were low.

v. intr. Slang
To downplay or misrepresent one's ability in order to deceive someone, especially in gambling.

-------------

IIRC, Moki's comment was related directly to the capabilities of the 970, or the 9x0 series of processors in general. He has also repeatedly predicted the arrival of the 970 in roughly the Sept '03 timeframe, which fits perfectly with what IBM's announcement said. There is no evidence that would cause us to doubt this.

So what could the "sandbagging" comment refer to? Here are my thoughts, roughly in order of likelyhood:

1) IBM stated that their performance numbers were estimates, and they may have low-balled them. 10-20% faster would surprise me at all.

2) The 0.09 micron delivery will be within 6 months of the 0.13 micron delivery and will significantly improve performance.

3) The 0.13 part will arrive at higher clock rates than projected, either right away or very soon after. Motorola, for example, has only announced G4s up to 1 GHz or so but Apple is shipping faster ones.

4) IBM omitted processor details. For example, based on the architectural details I've seen it wouldn't be unreasonable for the 970 to support hyper-threading in the same manner as it was added to Intel's P4. There are enough registers, prefetch streams, execution units, etc to drive two threads. This is a relatively straightforward addition to the microarchitecture of the processor, and a very small %age increase in the transistor count.

5) IBM has a multicore version intended only for use in IBM and Apple machines. This would still be &lt;100 million transistors. It would be damn hot, but look at Apple's current case. Alternatively this might arrive with the 0.09 migration.

6) All of the above.

7) Alternatively it could be that Motorola is the one sandbagging.... [EDIT] but this is refutted by the quote pointed out below. We know its about IBM and its about PowerPC processors.


I wouldn't bet on any of these coming true, but it makes for more interesting speculation than when the next gen PowerMac will ship.

[ 01-25-2003: Message edited by: Programmer ]</p>

Here's the post that got me to think maybe the sandbagging wasn't about the 970. I could be and most probably am completely wrong.
<a href="http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002877" target="_blank">http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002877</a>
moki
Member

Posts: 323
From: Rochester, NY

posted 01-12-2003 02:44 AM
[quote] <img src="embarrassed.gif" border="0"> riginally posted by Locomotive:
Does anyone remember (from someone whose screen name is a four-letter-word) the suggestion that IBM might be sandbagging?<hr></blockquote>

Sure... but I didn't say about what.

[ 01-25-2003: Message edited by: rickag ]</p>

IIRC, I inferred from various moki posts that there would be a dual core 970.

[quote]Originally posted by rickag:
<strong>Here's the post that got me to think maybe the sandbagging wasn't about the 970.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You're right, but it was definitely about IBM. And its certainly about processors since that's what the discussion was about. It might not carry the number 970, but it is most likely a direct relative... 971, 975, 980. I lump any of these into the category "970 w/ variation". See my list above for the possible variations.

[quote]Originally posted by Programmer:
<strong>
There is no evidence that would cause us to doubt this.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Speak for yourself. :cool:

[ 01-25-2003: Message edited by: Transcendental Octothorpe ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by Programmer:
<strong>It might not carry the number 970, but it is most likely a direct relative... 971, 975, 980...</strong><hr></blockquote>

A thought just occured to me. moki's comment,"Sure... but I didn't say about what." may have just been concerning any NDA(which he says he isn't under), ethical issues he may have or he enjoys the guessing games we play.