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SDW=1, Nameless GMC Dealer "X" =0.

post #1 of 32
Thread Starter 
Well, I finally did it. My wife and I got a new GMC Envoy XL, SLT 4WD. (please, let's not go down the "Why'd you get the SUV, why are you killing the planet, why'd you buy new, blah blah, blah BLAH route).

After we had the baby, we knew we'd need some serious cargo space. We pretty much made the choice months ago, but were waiting 'till my lease was nearer to the end. "Anywho:"

I beat the hell out of these guys. They quoted me a first price of $3,000 under sticker (not all bad, I guess). They, thinking that I think I could actually know their true cost by looking at an invoice, tried to tell me that was $150 over their "cost". Having done this before, I talked about the number with them, then left and went to another dealer. Oooohhh....they HATE that.

The second dealer didn't really have what I wanted, so I decided to play hard ball with the first. After a quick call to the wife, we decided to get serious. I was playing for keeps this time, and offered them $2,500 LESS than their "best deal" price. They laughed. We negotiated...upwards, until we reached a price $1000 under their best deal. They pulled out their "invoice" (I believe Wayne would say...."AS IF!!!) and I picked it apart, then showed them, according to my math, what their actual invoice was. Anyway, after we fought for awhile the sales manager came out at my request and agreed on the price. Not ten minutes before, I was told the best they could do was perhaps $200 less than their "best deal". I got $1000.

So, I paid $4,132 under sticker, which probably puts them into their holdback (and the car's been on the lot for a while so that's not good for them). I also got a whopping $4,250 in rebates because I provided my own financing. I've prided myself on beating the hell out of dealers, but getting a car for $8,382 under sticker is a personal best for me. Picking up the car Thursday night.

Any stories to share? I know the dealer's tactic well, and I'm sure some of you do too. I'm not naive enought think they made nothing, but I think I did pretty well.
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post #2 of 32
You dirty dog, you! I could only wish to have the level of salesmanship you demonstrated (I'm really terrible at this sort of thing).

Oh btw, shame on you for buying an SUV!
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post #3 of 32
You are one evil dude SDW. I thought that what was good for GMC was good for America (or maybe that was GE, or maybe GWB). By cutting into corporate profits, you cause GW Bush and his friends to sink into a deep deep funk. This can only undermine the ongoing war effort.
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post #4 of 32
Quote:
Originally posted by Randycat99
You dirty dog, you! I could only wish to have the level of salesmanship you demonstrated (I'm really terrible at this sort of thing).

Oh btw, shame on you for buying an SUV!

nice work. what is the invoice on the envoy? is that a small, midsize or large suv?
post #5 of 32
I know you don't want to hear it but did you really need an SUV for one baby?
post #6 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
I know you don't want to hear it but did you really need an SUV for one baby?

Here we go.

The answer is no. But, we also have an 85 pound collie whom we need to keep separate from her. We also wanted a lot of cargo space. In addition, it's going to be my car (my lease was coming up) so I'd PREFER not to drive minivan (In our opinion, the only other real option).


chinney:

Quote:
You are one evil dude SDW. I thought that what was good for GMC was good for America (or maybe that was GE, or maybe GWB). By cutting into corporate profits, you cause GW Bush and his friends to sink into a deep deep funk. This can only undermine the ongoing war effort.

I need the third seat it offers to give your big Straw Man a ride.

progmac:



Quote:
nice work. what is the invoice on the envoy? is that a small, midsize or large suv?

Invoice depends on equipment of course. And, people need to realize that the dealer invoice is basically fiction. They get secret factory to dealer incentives, holdback, etc. We, as consumers, can never know their real cost. I'm sure they made at least $1K on me. The difference is, if I do say so myself, I know that going in.

The vehicle I got is essentially a large SUV, because it's the XL with the third seat. I got the 4WD SLT model, with 6 disc Cd changer, comfort and convenenience, load-level suspension (don't need it...but it was there) and Bose audio. Oh, and sunroof. I didn't care about that in an SUV, but after seeing it...it really makes the vehicle feel a lot more open.

The invoice, which they showed me without my asking (unusual), was like $37,700 as equipped. The sticker was a whopping $41,020. Their first offer was about $37,900 or so. Not bad, but I took them down another thousand.

I also had a few lease payments left to be considered (I needed to get rid of my Maxima because I was out of warranty recently...and we needed the bigger vechicle). So, we figured this in the price (not included above) and they are cutting me a check to pay it off. Here's the kicker: since they had to add the lease payments into the purchase price, they tried to charge me sales tax on the entire amount. I argued about that, since the lease payments were *not* a taxable sale. I got them to add the tax on the lease payments onto the lease rebate check...about another $100.
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post #7 of 32
Quote:
I also got a whopping $4,250 in rebates because I provided my own financing.

So was this in addition to talking them down to $36,900 or was that including the incentives?

I'll share my most recent story. Of course it doesn't involve a dealer but it does involve vehicles.

I own(ed) a 1970 RV which I had originally purchased for $800. I wanted to learn about RV's, home repair (they have all the same systems), and just generally improve my fix up skills.

I made about $1000 worth of improvements to the RV estimating very aggressively. I installed indoor outdoor carpet from Home Depot, I painted the panels from some appliances white, tore it open and replaced some rotting wood and paneling, etc. I paid my brother to go through and rebuild the engine in his spare time for $600 total.

My wife loved the work I had done however there was one thing I could not do about the RV. It was only about 20 feet long (that was the longest that could fit in our driveway back at our old house) and she thought it was too small. So I sold it for $2200 cash to a nice gentleman.

I turned around and found a nice 27 ft RV with a recently installed $1200 fridge, an extra RV-sized freezer, microwave, etc. The works. It is a 1974 with a Dodge 440 and sleeps 7 while our other RV only slept 4. I checked to insure it had no wood rot. (Amazingly I am much better and finding and knowing about that now )

I paid $2000 cash for it.

I plan on using the extra $200 to update the flooring to either vinyl or possible some of that snap in wood flooring to give it a kind of classy look.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #8 of 32
Thread Starter 
Cool.

To answer your question:

The sticker was 41,020. I paid $36,888, not including rebates of $4,250. This brings the total (not including the lease payments left) to $32,638. That means a paid $8,382 less than the sticker...or a whopping 20%.
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post #9 of 32
SDW, you've got to learn that Nick will ALWAYS beat you at this game.

You got a good deal, but man, that's still a helluva lot of money to spend on a car. That's gotta be one year's take-home pay for you. A friend of mine has a big family with two teenagers, and has three cars. His car payments are more than his mortgage payment. There's something seriously wrong with spending that much on consumption rather than investment. Eh, I'm a snob because I ride my bike to work.
post #10 of 32
Nice one SDW


I got my bass amp and cabinets for about 500 dollars off the sale price, Saved a total of 800 dollars. By haggling a little but also because the guy likes me so he gave me the best possible price.
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post #11 of 32
I got a free dildo once......you don't want to know what I had to do to get that.
And all that could have been.
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And all that could have been.
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post #12 of 32
Quote:
Originally posted by Argento
I got a free dildo once......you don't want to know what I had to do to get that.

Don't worry Argento, I won't show them the pictures...

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #13 of 32
you have the pictures too?

(the sad part is i'm not kidding)

right Sock-O?
post #14 of 32
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
SDW, you've got to learn that Nick will ALWAYS beat you at this game.

You got a good deal, but man, that's still a helluva lot of money to spend on a car. That's gotta be one year's take-home pay for you. A friend of mine has a big family with two teenagers, and has three cars. His car payments are more than his mortgage payment. There's something seriously wrong with spending that much on consumption rather than investment. Eh, I'm a snob because I ride my bike to work.

BRussell,

If the game is net-worth, I don't do too badly, but there are others here who do better than I. That is a lot for a vehicle and I wouldn't buy new, but it still sounds like SDW did his best and got a good deal.

$742.48 (assuming about $3,000 for lease pay-off, fees, etc.) a month for 48 months though, there are a lot of things I could buy for that.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #15 of 32
Quote:
Originally posted by alcimedes
you have the pictures too?

(the sad part is i'm not kidding)

right Sock-O?

You wouldn't by chance have a dave@aol.com email would you?
And all that could have been.
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post #16 of 32
Minivans are great. Got two.
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post #17 of 32
Typical gross margins on SUVs from the manufacturer is 25%. What the dealers tack on is an obscenity. There's a lot more negotiating room for an SUV than say, a Focus.

Technically, the rebates you got didn't come out of the dealer's pocket, since that's from the manufacturer. They're happy to give you those, since it makes you (the customer) even happier. My dad was raving about the $500 he got, just because my 944 sits on his driveway, for example.

In any case, negotiating with a dealer is mandatory, and I think you did extremely well for yourself.
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post #18 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by GardenOfEarthlyDelights
Typical gross margins on SUVs from the manufacturer is 25%. What the dealers tack on is an obscenity. There's a lot more negotiating room for an SUV than say, a Focus.

Technically, the rebates you got didn't come out of the dealer's pocket, since that's from the manufacturer. They're happy to give you those, since it makes you (the customer) even happier. My dad was raving about the $500 he got, just because my 944 sits on his driveway, for example.

In any case, negotiating with a dealer is mandatory, and I think you did extremely well for yourself.

Thanks. My family is starting to recruit me for their car shpping needs!

My Dad told me that in FL, some dealers have Lincoln Navigators marked down....wait for it....$15,000 off sticker! Apparently, Ford makes another $15K on the car. This means a $60,000 SUV costs less than $30K to make.

They could care less about the rebates. I agree. It's amazing how many people think that the rebates are the discount, though. The dealer cares if people are stupid...that's how they make money. What I did was offer them an absurd price. The orginal price they quoted me for the vehicle was "$150 over invoice". I offered them $2500 less than that. Then, I came up in $500 increments another $1,500. Then, we subtracted the $3000 rebate, the $750 GM owner loyalty, and the $500 Conquest discount (for having a non-GM car as well)

The price: It's an absurd amount of money. I know that. But, as trumptman and I have discussed before, I'm convinced that new is the way to go. A lot of folks disagree, but I've come to the conclusion that no matter what one does, he/she is going to PAY substantial dollars to drive ANY car. I'm choosing to pay a bit more and drive a new car. I've done the numbers, and I'm convinced driving used is not worth it in most cases. Trumptman disagrees and that's fine.

We did it through home equity (fixed). The interest is tax deductible and the minumum payment is low. It's a fifteen year loan, but my real goal is simply to keep it from going "upside down" (vehicle worth less than loan amount). In other words, I'll lease it from myself while still buying it. When I'm done, my equity will be right back where it was, and in 6-7 years I'll be ready for another vehicle.

It's also secured debt on an appreciating asset (the house) so it's better than a car loan. With a regular car loan, the car is "worth what it is worth" at the end...perhaps 70% less than you paid. You've made your payments, and that's it. With this, the money is back where it started. The vehicle is now listed as an asset because I'll have the title outright. Yes, I have the loan liability, but as I said it's secured debt, so it's not just a straight-out liability. Our net worth actually doesn't change much from this purchase, because what I'm really doing is paying down the depreciation...which, BTW will be clsoe to what a used car payment would be. And, a used car won't last 6-7 years for most people. I'd have to buy another one in 4 years.

Many say a car is an investment, and a terrible one at that. I basically disagree. One buys a car to drive. It's like any other product, but more expensive. One doesn't hear people talking about what a lousy investment a Pismo PowerBook is worth now ($400-700) because it had a "sticker" of $3500 when new.
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post #19 of 32
Used american scrap is definitely the way to go. The things have no resale value, so that's good for the buyer, and a little research will show you which ones run for miles and miles without major trouble.
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post #20 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Matsu
Used american scrap is definitely the way to go. The things have no resale value, so that's good for the buyer, and a little research will show you which ones run for miles and miles without major trouble.

I don't agree. Any decent used car is going to cost $10-15K. Then, the buyer is exposed to a lack of original warrantty, repairs, added interest because the car is used and most importantly...the buyer is paying every month to drive a 4-5 year old vehicle.

One can, of course, buy cash. But what is one going to be able to buy for cash? Most people I know don't have an exra $15K sitting around, no matter what their income is. It's just reality. Sure, we can sit back and poo-poo those who don't save enough, spend too much; but, that's not really the problem when it comes to a car. They're just too damn expensive. People also think that if they buy cash, they don;t have a payment. That's not true. One has to amortize for repairs and the monthly savings for the NEXT car.

In most cases, buying a used car is poor man's thinking. No offense intended at all.
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post #21 of 32
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
I don't agree. Any decent used car is going to cost $10-15K. Then, the buyer is exposed to a lack of original warrantty, repairs, added interest because the car is used and most importantly...the buyer is paying every month to drive a 4-5 year old vehicle.

One can, of course, buy cash. But what is one going to be able to buy for cash? Most people I know don't have an exra $15K sitting around, no matter what their income is. It's just reality. Sure, we can sit back and poo-poo those who don't save enough, spend too much; but, that's not really the problem when it comes to a car. They're just too damn expensive. People also think that if they buy cash, they don;t have a payment. That's not true. One has to amortize for repairs and the monthly savings for the NEXT car.

In most cases, buying a used car is poor man's thinking. No offense intended at all.

SDW, please don't rehash this again. Your assumptions lead to your conclusions. Others have different assumptions and have had different results. Congrats on the new vehicle. I hope it works trouble free until the next millenium.

And as for poor man's thinking... I'm not the millionaire next door, but I don't do too badly.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #22 of 32
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
SDW, please don't rehash this again. Your assumptions lead to your conclusions. Others have different assumptions and have had different results. Congrats on the new vehicle. I hope it works trouble free until the next millenium.

And as for poor man's thinking... I'm not the millionaire next door, but I don't do too badly.

Nick

Our financial consultant ALWAYS says to buy a used car.

I don't usually do that, but it IS sage advice.
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post #23 of 32
Quote:
Originally posted by JRC
Our financial consultant ALWAYS says to buy a used car.

I don't usually do that, but it IS sage advice.

Yes, every personal financial analysis says the same. The only analysis I've ever seen that concludes that buying new is more economical than buying used is SDW's.


There are other values, of course. It's not all about money. To a lot of people the prestige and social acceptance of the big, expensive car is important. And everybody spends a ton of money on their cars, so it's true that you're not keeping up with the Joneses if you're the only one with a small, used car in neighborhoods otherwise full of 2005 monster SUVs.

Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
One can, of course, buy cash. But what is one going to be able to buy for cash? Most people I know don't have an exra $15K sitting around, no matter what their income is.

That is the real problem - more so probably than the new vs. used issue. People just live beyond their means. They don't have to, but our culture just promotes it. And I think you're right that it's not related to income. I know lots of people with monster incomes and yet no money. It's weird.

Quote:
People also think that if they buy cash, they don;t have a payment. That's not true. One has to amortize for repairs and the monthly savings for the NEXT car.

Wow. That's some seriously twisted logic. Taking out a loan for consumption is good because otherwise you'd have to be saving?

Hey, we all have our vices. Life wouldn't be interesting otherwise. For lots of folks on AI, it's new computers. For you, SDW, it's year's-salary gas-guzzling killer SUVs.

But another issue that I think is even more important than the used vs. new issue is how long you keep the car. If you can keep that monster for over a decade, you've probably more than made up for your loss from buying new compared to most image-conscious people who buy every coupla years.
post #24 of 32
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
I don't agree. Any decent used car is going to cost $10-15K...

Nope. I've never spent more than $9000 for a used car and I've had some very, very good used cars. I bought one new car and it was okay but not worth the extra cost.

Sounds like you got a fairly good deal on the SUV, though. I just can't imagine spending that much on a car.
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post #25 of 32
Buying a car new is definately for the type of person that buys to keep a car- like me! It's the only way you can ensure the car has always been kept in the best shape for the best longevity.

If you don't mind going through car after car every few years, then "used" sounds like a good plan. Of course, leasing can be a very competitive strategy in the same vein, plus you get to enjoy the joys of a new car to boot. I guess it all depends on how much "personal attachment" you assign to the car you drive.
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post #26 of 32
Count me in the 'used' category. (Um, wait...)

Current car is a used '95/'96 Jeep Cherokee Sport chop shop rebuild special... $9k in '96. (Twas two Jeeps that had bad days, ripped to component pieces and built into one sparkly new... er... Frankenjeep.)

I've plunked $800 into repairs into it in the past 7 years (gotta love Mopar wiring harnesses), and just took it into the dealer prior to my current round-the-continent tour (3700 miles so far in the past 10 days), and his synopsis was: "You have 30-40% left on your front brake pads, and a *slight* rear main seal leak that we'll look at when you get back, other than that, it's perfect." The pads are normal wear and tear maintenance, and the seal is likely due to some new oil I'm using that is undoubtedly taking out the deposits... I wouldn't be surprised if it reseats by the time I get back. If not, eh, a minor repair.

Cosmetically, it's got some 'character', but I really couldn't give a rat's posterior about whether or not the fit and finish is 100%... it's a vehicle, not a showpiece. (Besides, the chances of it getting ripped off are much, much lower. ) No chrome brush guards here, this is a real 4WD, not a groinal extension.

It gets me around more than decently, and my total cost so far has been <$10k for 7 years... with low insurance rates ($70/month). Resale value is going to suck, since the title says 'rebuild' on it, but I don't plan on selling it until it's lived a full life. I'll be hitting 100kmi this week, most likely, and Gwanjeep* has been great. Here's to another 250kmi, like my brother's truck.

Yeah, you can get a lemon, or you can find yourself a Gwanjeep, and do more than fine. Good buys can be found in new or used cars. Sounds like you did just fine for yourself $ wise, SDW, as far as new cars go.

*It got christened this trip, after _Valley of the Gwangi_, a B scifi movie starring Ray Harryhausen's stop motion work about a valley of lost dinosaurs. Going through the backroads of the South Dakota Badlands, it seemed appropriate.
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post #27 of 32
Thread Starter 
Wow. An honest to goodness disagreement with minimal, perhaps NO flames.

Buying a new car is going to cost more. That's true and I don't dispute it. For me, I know it's not really about prestige. Despite the price of the vehicle, I don't generally live beyond my means. I don't finance things other than my house an my cars for the most part We did finance my dining room set for one year at zero interest...we're a payment ahead and will be done next month. We did this so we could use some of the cash to build a deck. It worked out great.

We have two vehicles, one being a 2001 Grand Am and the other is the Envoy. The Grand Am is paid off. We put a lot of money into our vehicles and our house. A nice, clean and exceptionally reliable vehicle is very important to me. I drive almost an hour to work and we make fairly frequent long trips...sometimes to FL to see my Dad. I'm not doing that trip in a 1994 Caravan, for example. We plan to keep the car for quite awhile. Or, depending on whether we're upside down on the loan, we may trade it after several years (this would amount to leasing the car from ourselves with no restrictions). We'll have to see about that. Anyway, we'll soon have NO other debt than the mortgage and the home equity loan, both of which are secured debt on an appeciating asset. We also have substantial investments, including IRA's and a college fund, not to mention substantial reserve cash and bond fond as well. Making a judgement that we live beyond our means is premature and ill-informed.

Trumptman, I'm not taking a dig at you. I know plenty of folks who go the used route. I just disgaree with it...that's all. I don't fault you or anyone else for going that way.

BRussell, as far as twisted logic goes, I don't think that's fair. It's a matter of perspective. Though spending and saving are not the same thing, one is still "making a a payment" in a sense when he saves for next car. Most analysts will also tell you that saving has to be treated as an EXPENSE. That's a fact.

Let's say you buy a nice used vehicle for $9600 with tax, tags, etc. There is a 30 day warranty on the car. It has 65,000 miles on it. This vehicle is probably not going to last more than 4 years. This means to buy another car for cash in four years, one has to save $200 a month just to buy the next car. One also is going to amortize repairs. Though it would be nice to accept the "feel good" scenarios here about repair frequency and cost, I have seen people drop $1500 into a 5 year old vehicle on multiple ocassions. It is NOT uncommon. I've seen this with cars that are 4 years old, 5 years old, and 6 years old. Head gasket goes? $1200. Clutch? $700 Transmission? $400-$1200 Shocks? $150-$600. Brakes? $50-$200. All of these are going to have more wear (probably) with a used car.

But let's be fair and amortize in $50 a month for repairs and maintainence one wouldn't have to do on newer vehicle (we're exlcuding regular scheduled maintenece except for higher "mileage maintainences" like a 60,000 mile service). This means we're ate $250 a month. That's what it WILL cost to drive the car. Assuming you want to keep buying cash, that's what it will cost. During the time you're doing this "saving", you're driving a 4-9 year old vehicle which doesn't have any warranty at all...usually even powertrain at that point. If you've never seen someone drop this kind of money, you're practicing wishful thinking. Again...no offense.

Is it going to cost me more than you. I know that. I'm also driving a fairly new car every day. When I'm done, the money will be back in my home instead of being pissed away like with third-party financing. If I move (unlikely) and need the cash, I'll just go get a used vehicle loan.

One last point: You are right that most financial advisors will tell you to buy used. That's because they look at it as an investment. Newsflash: If a car were a true "investment", we'd have people jumping off buidlings every day. It's NOT an investment. It's a product. It's become no different than a computer or TV set. As I said...I don't hear anybody telling me I'm crazy because I bought a $3500 Pismo 3 years ago...which is now worth $500-$600. That's a bigger percentage loss than on the vehicle!
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post #28 of 32
Quote:
[i]

One last point: You are right that most financial advisors will tell you to buy used. That's because they look at it as an investment. Newsflash: If a car were a true "investment", we'd have people jumping off buidlings every day. It's NOT an investment. It's a product. It's become no different than a computer or TV set. As I said...I don't hear anybody telling me I'm crazy because I bought a $3500 Pismo 3 years ago...which is now worth $500-$600. That's a bigger percentage loss than on the vehicle! [/B]

Absolutely NOT.

No one thinks of cars as investments. Financial Advisors especially. They are just trying to get you to waste LESS money, essentially.

For me, I like buying and owning a NEW car because I know it's complete history. I don't smoke and other such things and with my old 89 Shelby, I never even let anyone eat/drink, lean in or on it. I was very stingy with it.

Now, with 3 young kids, I can't be so picky.

The biggest advantage in my mind buying new is some of the other makes. They include scheduled service. For M-B, for example, it means a couple of things. First, it saves you hundreds if not thousands over their high service prices. (My M-B used to cost me > $100 for oil changes). Plus, once the car is traded in, there's no excuse for it not being mechanically superior to a car that didn't have its 15k, 30k, 45k, etc. service intervals performed. How many american-make buyers religiously take their car in for those intervals? <1%, perhaps. Just try. I did. Call and schedule a "15k service". The guy on the other end will ask you what's wrong, needs fixed, or what you'd like to do to it. Say "That's your area of expertise, but the manual states this.....", and you'll hear "If you don't need that, then why ask for it"< and so on and so forth. It's a riot.

Anyway, I like to buy new, and that's but one additional reason that I'm not a millionaire. (Besides the THREE other reasons, that are all under 7 years old, !!!!!)
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post #29 of 32
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
Count me in the 'used' category. (Um, wait...)

Current car is a used '95/'96 Jeep Cherokee Sport chop shop rebuild special... $9k in '96. (Twas two Jeeps that had bad days, ripped to component pieces and built into one sparkly new... er... Frankenjeep.)


Alright another Jeep Cherokee owner! I own two so does that mean I get call them frankenjeeps? I mean I never turned them into one machine, but still. One is quite ugly.

My blue Jeep Cherokee made a round the continent trip about 4 years ago. I put over 8,000 miles on it that summer. I started the trip with 167,000 miles on it. It is still around now with 221k miles on it but is currently getting the air repaired thanks to a screw up on my part.

The rear main seal leak is unlikely to go away. It is a "feature" of the 4.0 L engine and transmission that appears when ever they are run in dirty conditions often. For example 2 years ago I took my blue Jeep down deep into the Baja California. We went down to Bahia de Los Angeles. Along the way I learned that a Mexican "road" on a map can indeed be 120+ miles of nothing more than dirt trails. It took us about 4 hours to get through that adventure and I was just a little worried as the Jeep was running in fairly hot conditions off-road continiously for 4 hours. I was even worried more about the shocks than the engine because I doubted they had ever been designed to travel for that long over very rough trails.

Needless to say, when we came back I had a rear seal leak that had widened a bit more. However it did make the entire trip from Beaumont to B. d. L.A. and back with no trouble.

I have begun looking into engine rebuilds as the Jeep might someday need one. However for now it is a sort of fun experiment to see how long it will go.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #30 of 32
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Wow. An honest to goodness disagreement with minimal, perhaps NO flames.

One last point: You are right that most financial advisors will tell you to buy used. That's because they look at it as an investment. Newsflash: If a car were a true "investment", we'd have people jumping off buidlings every day. It's NOT an investment. It's a product. It's become no different than a computer or TV set. As I said...I don't hear anybody telling me I'm crazy because I bought a $3500 Pismo 3 years ago...which is now worth $500-$600. That's a bigger percentage loss than on the vehicle!

It's not that they look at cars as investments. It's that most investments take some serious money to get into and start earning a return. If someone doesn't have the $10-15k to buy a used car, how likely are they to have $10-15k to buy an investment property, start a business, etc.

We don't have people jumping off buildings... yet. However we do see lots of folks who are just never going to be able to retire or retire while trying to live off just Social Security. The fit is going to hit the shan pretty darn soon now. If that prescription drug benefit passes, I imagine it will blow a hole in the budget the size of Jupiter.

As for your Pismo, sure there is a cost in owning the computer. No one said life isn't to be enjoyed in some regards, or to have no hobbies or interests. If you didn't earn any money with your Pismo though and kept upgrading just to have the latests and greatest to play MP3's with etc. Then people would likely question your purchasing decisions.

Take it from me, the now owner of a dual 1 gig PowerMac G4 which I picked up yesterday.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #31 of 32
Thread Starter 
trumptman:

Quote:
It's not that they look at cars as investments. It's that most investments take some serious money to get into and start earning a return. If someone doesn't have the $10-15k to buy a used car, how likely are they to have $10-15k to buy an investment property, start a business, etc.

We don't have people jumping off buildings... yet. However we do see lots of folks who are just never going to be able to retire or retire while trying to live off just Social Security. The fit is going to hit the shan pretty darn soon now. If that prescription drug benefit passes, I imagine it will blow a hole in the budget the size of Jupiter.

As for your Pismo, sure there is a cost in owning the computer. No one said life isn't to be enjoyed in some regards, or to have no hobbies or interests. If you didn't earn any money with your Pismo though and kept upgrading just to have the latests and greatest to play MP3's with etc. Then people would likely question your purchasing decisions.

Take it from me, the now owner of a dual 1 gig PowerMac G4 which I picked up yesterday.


Again, we'll just have to disagree. I spend more and I'm fine with that. I'm not putiing my retirement in jeopardy in any way. My only debts at the end of next month will be my mortgage and equity loan. I've had knowledgeable folks (like loan consultants...who are pretty tough) look at my credit, debt loab, etc...and I've been told I'm in superb shape. We've got IRA's and a college fund in securities. I have bonds and cash for reserve funds and emergencies/castostrophies (like losing a job or the like).

I think your assumptions are a bit off, in other words. An expensve car does not equal financial peril or future jeopardy.
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post #32 of 32
Thread Starter 
JRC:

Quote:
o one thinks of cars as investments. Financial Advisors especially. They are just trying to get you to waste LESS money, essentially.

And I'm saying it's not as much waste as one thinks...expecially when compared to buying used. To me, it's more than worth it to drive new.

Though, in a sense, ALL cars are a money pit. I figure if I'm going to pay, then I'm going to drive new. Period.
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