7447/7457

Good catch.

For those wondering, it's a description for a seminar to be delivered at SNDF Dallas, which is held from March 23-26.

So there's an approximate timeframe for the 7457 to bow in.

"* How Does the Performance of the MPC7447/7457 Compare to Competition?"

Hee-hee

Lemon Bon Bon

[quote]Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon:
<strong>"* How Does the Performance of the MPC7447/7457 Compare to Competition?"

Hee-hee </strong><hr></blockquote>

Keep in mind for the embedded market the G4 is a very good chip compared to a lot of the competition. It really isn't meant to compete in the desktop market right now and if it weren't for Apple I doubt it'd even be where it is.

From what I've heard about the power dissapation numbers, a .13u SOI G4 in the 1.2-1.8Ghz range would be a nice-nice little CPU for laptops.

[quote]Originally posted by Matsu:
<strong>From what I've heard about the power dissapation numbers, a .13u SOI G4 in the 1.2-1.8Ghz range would be a nice-nice little CPU for laptops.</strong><hr></blockquote>

i hope they'll put a 7457 in the powerbooks, the 7447 has no L3 cache and fits nice in the consumermarket imac/emac and maybe ibook.
especially if we have to wait a little longer for the ppc970 (you never now)

Apple havenever before used the low power version, 74x/744x-processors, but instead gone all the way with its big brother 75x/745x, even i PowerBooks, iBooks and iMacs. If I recall correctly. They probably won't do it this time either. One of the diffenrences is the pin out and I guess that it'd be somewhat harder to design two separate chipsets just to use the low power and the high power versions of essentially the same processor.

[quote]Originally posted by A Random Walk:
<strong>Can someone post the technicals on each of these processors. Is the '57 simply a die shrink of the '55?</strong><hr></blockquote>

As moto PDF leaked before, the 7457 introduce process enhancement like .13u and HIP8. AND ! 512Kb L2 cache, support for a 4Mb cache (instead of 2Mb max like the current 7455), support for parity on L3 and also support for 200mhz bus. So we could see a 1.4 and 1.6Ghz G4 soon. (7457 is suppose to go over 2ghz on the roadmap, probably this summer)

<a href="http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~ceugene/MPC7457.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~ceugene/MPC7457.jpg</a>

Doesn't look like anything other than a die shrink.

[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong><a href="http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~ceugene/MPC7457.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~ceugene/MPC7457.jpg</a>

Doesn't look like anything other than a die shrink.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I tought the 7457 was supposed to have 512kb L2 cache (due to more space availible).

<strong>Originally posted by microtrash:
support for a 4Mb cache (instead of 2Mb max like the current 7455)</strong>

The important subtlety here is that the 7457 has support for 4 MByte of private memory backside cache, an embedded hardware feature. I believe regular backside L3 cache support is still 2 MByte.

[ 01-19-2003: Message edited by: THT ]</p>

I don't know if this information has been posted yet, but have a look anyway...

PDF is here:

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/lmtncom/xfiles/PPCSALESFACT.pdf" target="_blank">www.geocities.com/lmtncom/xfiles/PPCSALESFACT.pdf</a>

And the HTML is here:

<a href="http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:6gM58WAn1hgC:www.geocities.com/lmtncom/xfiles/PPCSALESFACT.pdf+%22MPC7457%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-" target="_blank">GeoCities link</a>

[Edit by Amorph: edited link name to restore board formatting]

--
Ed M.

[ 01-20-2003: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>

Did you notice that in the Motorola/IBM comparison chart on page 4:

IBM 750CXe or 750FX gets 1624 MIPS @ 700Mhz

Motorola G4 appears to get 1617 MIPS @ 700 Mhz

[ 01-19-2003: Message edited by: heaven or las vegas ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by heaven or las vegas:
<strong>Did you notice that in the Motorola/IBM comparison chart on page 4:

IBM 750CXe or 750FX gets 1624 MIPS @ 700Mhz

Motorola G4 appears to get 1617 MIPS @ 700 Mhz
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Not very impressive.

I'm not upgrading until the powermacs come with either a G5 or the PPC 970. (I could settle for a G4 if it had an integrated DDR memory controller.)

[quote]Originally posted by heaven or las vegas:
<strong>Did you notice that in the Motorola/IBM comparison chart on page 4:

IBM 750CXe or 750FX gets 1624 MIPS @ 700Mhz

Motorola G4 appears to get 1617 MIPS @ 700 Mhz
</strong><hr></blockquote>

No surprise there, really... the G4 family has gone to a longer pipeline which impacts performance somewhat but allows higher clock rates. MIPS also doesn't measure double precision floating point performance, which the G4 is superiour at. It also doesn't reflect bus bandwidth. And of course, no AltiVec.

Since they list the 7455 to a maximum of 1 GHz and the 7457 to a maximum of 1.3 GHz, that probably means we can expect to see Apple using 7457s somewhat in excess of 1.3 GHz.

So it looks like the 7457-RM is still on the roadmap for approximately the beginning of 2004. That ought to do well in Apple's portable and low-end lineup.

[quote]Originally posted by Ed M.:
<strong>I don't know if this information has been posted yet, but have a look anyway...</strong><hr></blockquote>

You people amaze me, even if the MPC 7457 doesn't, finding information on the web. I was expecting the 0.13µ process long ago, hopefully this isn't BS and the MPC 7457 is very near production, finally.

I imagine if the person that leaked that document is found out they will be in serious trouble.

[quote]Originally posted by rickag:
<strong>You people amaze me...finding information on the web.</strong><hr></blockquote>

This is an internet BB afterall.What else is there to do?

[quote]
<strong>

Since they list the 7455 to a maximum of 1 GHz and the 7457 to a maximum of 1.3 GHz, that probably means we can expect to see Apple using 7457s somewhat in excess of 1.3 GHz.

So it looks like the 7457-RM is still on the roadmap for approximately the beginning of 2004. That ought to do well in Apple's portable and low-end lineup.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sooo ... Can we expect the 7457 in the new portable lineup ? Or is it still too soon ?

[quote]Originally posted by BigBlue:
<strong>

Sooo ... Can we expect the 7457 in the new portable lineup ? Or is it still too soon ?</strong><hr></blockquote>

They just introduced a flagship laptop that isn't even shipping for a while, so I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that you're not going to see a 7457 in a laptop within the next 6 months or so. The PowerBooks usually lag behind the desktop machines for at least one product cycle. Whatever's next is going to show up in the PowerMacs first.

Alex

[quote]Originally posted by Alexander:
<strong>

They just introduced a flagship laptop that isn't even shipping for a while, so I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that you're not going to see a 7457 in a laptop within the next 6 months or so. The PowerBooks usually lag behind the desktop machines for at least one product cycle. Whatever's next is going to show up in the PowerMacs first.

Alex</strong><hr></blockquote>

i dont know... havent there been cases where the powerbooks were the first to use a new processor?

wallstreets come to mind and the 7410....maybe not...cant remember

[quote]Originally posted by applenut:
<strong>

i dont know... havent there been cases where the powerbooks were the first to use a new processor?

wallstreets come to mind and the 7410....maybe not...cant remember</strong><hr></blockquote>

no... no... no...
the wallstreet was the fastest G3 in the street with a 292Mhz G3 and a 83Mhz bus (and 14.1" screen an dvd playback and so on) not the first with a G3

He's referring to the 7410, which was the (long in coming) die shrunk 7400 G4, not the G3.

i don't know how safe it is to talk about what usually happens in these terms. The iBook beat the rest of Apple's line to AirPort because it made sense for the model. The PowerMacs might get the 7457 first just because the notebooks were recently updated, not because the chip "makes more sense" in them. A smaller, cooler, cheaper G4 is great for laptops too.

Slightly off-topic.

If 854x is a fully PPC-compliant chip running at up to 1GHz with DDR support, here are 2 silly questions:
1) can it run OS X?
2) can it be used in DSP?

Anyway, you know what I mean.

[quote]Originally posted by costique:
<strong>Slightly off-topic.

If 854x is a fully PPC-compliant chip running at up to 1GHz with DDR support, here are 2 silly questions:
1) can it run OS X?
2) can it be used in DSP?

Anyway, you know what I mean.</strong><hr></blockquote>
2 big problems with that chip being used in a computer system. 1. It does not have Altivec. 2. Worse, it does not have an FPU.

Apple could silently update to a newer processor without telling anyone, or without changing the clockspeed. The 7457 is a drop-in replacement so switching to it isn't a big deal.

Well the G4 I was told about has a new mobo design so I'm not sure if that means it could just be dropped in or not.

maybe the new mobo is for bluetooth and 802.11g?? (and some 200MHz FSB stuff and a built in hardware RAID controller??)

[ 01-21-2003: Message edited by: Bigc ]</p>

Well a new mobo would be needed for the following reasons:

Firewire 800 - needs a new or modified controller plus the ports to support it.

Airport Extreme - has a new slot; looks more like a small PCI connector than a PCMCIA connector.

Bluetooth - needs to be added to the controller.

Yes, those all could be true. I was under the impression it's a new board because the old one had topped out tho, but I wasn't given many specifics, jsut a new G4 mobo that is very hot. It was due last year but they could not solve the heat issues.

[quote]Originally posted by KidRed:
<strong>Well the G4 I was told about has a new mobo design so I'm not sure if that means it could just be dropped in or not.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It could mean that Apple's going to update a lot of other things to compensate for the lack of a major processor upgrade.

A dual 1.4GHz machine might be easier to swallow if it shipped with dual-channel ATA RAID, PCI-X, FW800, AirPort Extreme, onboard Bluetooth, etc.

Since Apple will have to roll out a memory controller that can feed two (or more) dedicated busses for the 970, maybe they can roll out an intermediate model that supports two MaxBuses with two processors each! Not that I think that'll happen. It's enough work supporting one. But I can see Apple rolling out as many upgrades as possible to keep the PowerMac attractive. They don't have to save everything for the 970 - that'll be news enough by itself.

[ 01-21-2003: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>
Airport Extreme - has a new slot; looks more like a small PCI connector than a PCMCIA connector.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's exactly what changed, actually. PCMCIA doesn't have the bandwidth to support 802.11g, so Apple switched to a small PCI bus.

PCMCIA doesn't, but Cardbus does.

[quote]Originally posted by Amorph:
<strong>A dual 1.4GHz machine might be easier to swallow if it shipped with dual-channel ATA RAID, PCI-X, FW800, AirPort Extreme, onboard Bluetooth, etc.

Since Apple will have to roll out a memory controller that can feed two (or more) dedicated busses for the 970, maybe they can roll out an intermediate model that supports two MaxBuses with two processors each! Not that I think that'll happen. It's enough work supporting one. But I can see Apple rolling out as many upgrades as possible to keep the PowerMac attractive. They don't have to save everything for the 970 - that'll be news enough by itself.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

There is much speculation that a future 970 machine will need to have the memory/main controller right on the daughtercard. Now imagine a motherboard with a HyperTransport or RIO bus running from a motherboard controller that has PCI-X, Firewire, ethernet, ATA, and all other IO on the main board and it connects to the daughtercard that houses the processor(s), memory controller/Hypertransport/RIO bridge chipset to the motherboard. For a 7457 machine it would have G4 processors connecting to the main controller via MPX (maybe at faster than 200MHz speeds since the proximity of the chips will help with speed) and the main controller will connect to the DIMM slots and peripheral controller on the motherboard. To make a 970 machine you would only need to replace the G4 card with a 970 chipset and 970 processor. Hmm, it would make a G4/970 line up easier to handle.

[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>

There is much speculation that a future 970 machine will need to have the memory/main controller right on the daughtercard. Now imagine a motherboard with a HyperTransport or RIO bus running from a motherboard controller that has PCI-X, Firewire, ethernet, ATA, and all other IO on the main board and it connects to the daughtercard that houses the processor(s), memory controller/Hypertransport/RIO bridge chipset to the motherboard. For a 7457 machine it would have G4 processors connecting to the main controller via MPX (maybe at faster than 200MHz speeds since the proximity of the chips will help with speed) and the main controller will connect to the DIMM slots and peripheral controller on the motherboard. To make a 970 machine you would only need to replace the G4 card with a 970 chipset and 970 processor. Hmm, it would make a G4/970 line up easier to handle.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'll take one...

[quote]Originally posted by Amorph:
<strong>That's exactly what changed, actually. PCMCIA doesn't have the bandwidth to support 802.11g, so Apple switched to a small PCI bus.</strong><hr></blockquote>Not enough for 54 Kbps, but enough for FireWire? Carbus is not the bottleneck here..
I think the Mini-PCI is for some future sweetnes..

54Mbps

[quote]Originally posted by Henriok:
<strong>Not enough for 54 Kbps, but enough for FireWire? Carbus is not the bottleneck here..
I think the Mini-PCI is for some future sweetnes..</strong><hr></blockquote>

The AirPort slot wasn't CardBus. It was a 16-bit ATA interface or something ridiculous like that.

[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>There is much speculation that a future 970 machine will need to have the memory/main controller right on the daughtercard.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Who said anything about a daughtercard? I see a lot of posts assuming that there will be one, but it's not guaranteed; Apple could just put everything on the motherboard.

<a href="http://www.rapidio.org/data/press/070902.pdf" target="_blank">Serial FapidIO Specification Released To General Industry</a>
High-Performance Serial Interconnect Augments Parallel RapidIO
-Austin, Texas July9, 2002-
....Products bases on Serial RapidIO are expected to be sampled to the industry in early 2003.....

<a href="http://www.rapidio.org/data/press/070902.pdf" target="_blank">RapidIO Interconnect Architecture</a>Accepted as ECMA International Standard
Geneva, Switzerland and Austin, Texas_January 20, 2003


Just wondering what impact these announcements on any timelines Motorola and/or IBM have on implementing this technology into processors like the MPC7457-RM and the IBM 75X

If I read this correctly, we may have quite a wait to see any Rapid I/O in any desktop processors. Any one with more knowledge have a better insight??

[ 01-24-2003: Message edited by: rickag ]

oh brother did I mess up the URL's, hope they're corrected now

[ 01-24-2003: Message edited by: rickag ]</p>