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My Body My Choice- For men too..

post #1 of 382
Thread Starter 
Men's Reproductive Choice

The premise:

On January 22, 1973, the United States Supreme Court eliminated a checkerboard of state laws on reproductive freedom and guaranteed American women choice throughout the country. Thirty years later, American men are still waiting for the same right.

Women participate in ending their parental rights via abortion, adoption or in some states even abandonment within the first couple months after the pregnancy. All with absolutely no consequences for her actions.

We are also told that abortion is needed for women because there is no foolproof method of birth control and women shouldn't be forced to have a child if they do not wish one, nor subject their body to a pregnancy they don't desire.

Why should men, if they don't so desire be subjected to 18 years of child support demands if they didn't even desire the child in the first place? Certainly that is a lot longer than 10 months of pregnancy. Likewise if women shouldn't be forced to suffer for imperfect birth-control why should men?

Do you promote true equality?

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #2 of 382
Apples and Oranges...
post #3 of 382
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Do you promote true equality?

Yes. I say men should be able to abort any fetuses inside their bodies.
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post #4 of 382
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
Yes. I say men should be able to abort any fetuses inside their bodies.

Very cute answer. Definately deserved a smilie.

Women are also allowed to relinquish their paternal rights outside of the body as well with adoption and abandonment.

Do you support the same rights for men?

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #5 of 382
Here is exactly what's wrong with this premise:

Quote:
Quoted from i"feminists".net:
Certainly nobody should be able to dictate to a woman what she can and cannot do with her own body, thus the feminist slogan "My Body, My Choice." Yet our current laws allow a woman to dictate to a man what to do with his body. The average American father works a 51-hour work week, one of the longest in the industrialized world. It is men, overwhelmingly, who do our society's hazardous and most strenuous jobs, and nearly 50 American workers--mostly men--are injured every minute of the 40-hour work week. Can anybody deny that the sacrifices required to pay 18 years of child support take a heavy toll on a man's body, too? Where's his choice?

The author compares forcing a woman to have a baby with forcing men to work in industrialized labor (or other hazardous and "strenuous" jobs.) He reasons that if you cannot do the former, you should certainly not do the latter. But here's the catch (where his logic breaks down): Men don't have to work to pay child support (if they have the money). Men don't have to work hazardous and "strenuous" jobs to pay child support. Any decent paying job will do.. maybe even jobs men LIKE. Who woulda thought? But women MUST have a baby if her choice is revoked. So a woman is TOLD exactly what to do with her body, while a man is not.

Apples and Oranges.

On another note: Since it's completely unlikely that a court will strike down the payment of child support by men, this exercise in spin is just another way of saying abortion should be illegal.
post #6 of 382
trumptman, many many of the cases a woman ends to abort is not her _liberally_ own will or choise but more the will of her man / boyfriend / olover etc. of course there are those dummies that want to get money of a rich guy, thus get pregnant and force him to marry (and later divorce, or produce more kids to "save the marriage".

a man can for sure do more about the subject than just rant. a few suggestions: 1) don't have sex with women that are between 10 and 50 years old. 2) use a condom when you f*ck. 3) do a vasectomy. if you do, no way you'll find any women who want your money for the next 40 years. oh, maybe you'll still "need to" reproduce some brats one day so you have to eliminate the last of these suggestions ...



oh - i remember a movie where arnold schwarnegger was pregnant. hilarious. i said after seeing that that when that'll be technically possible, i'll have some kids. heh. i guess it is as the men want the abort rights ...
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post #7 of 382
You know if a father ever went into family court and said, "Your honor I cannot take care of these kids. I am here to terminate my parental rights". He'd be tossed in jail.
post #8 of 382
Equality...yeah.

Well, if BOTH the man and woman decided to have sex, BOTH should have the legal right to deal with the consequences one way or the other.

I'll let you take it from there, because it only gets exponentially more complicated after that.
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post #9 of 382
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Shawn
Here is exactly what's wrong with this premise:



The author compares forcing a woman to have a baby with forcing men to work in industrialized labor (or other hazardous and "strenuous" jobs.) He reasons that if you cannot do the former, you should certainly not do the latter. But here's the catch (where his logic breaks down): Men don't have to work to pay child support (if they have the money). Men don't have to work hazardous and "strenuous" jobs to pay child support. Any decent paying job will do.. maybe even jobs men LIKE. Who woulda thought? But women MUST have a baby if her choice is revoked. So a woman is TOLD exactly what to do with her body, while a man is not.

Apples and Oranges.

On another note: Since it's completely unlikely that a court will strike down the payment of child support by men, this exercise in spin is just another way of saying abortion should be illegal.

Actually he simply compares it to support in general. From the article.

Quote:
Yet if she decides she wants the child, she can demand 18 years of child support from the father, and he has no choice in the matter. When it comes to reproduction, in America today women have rights and men merely have responsibilities.

Likewise your own logic breaks down badly because a woman is not TOLD to become pregnant. Thus she is not told what to do with her body. However a man will be TOLD by a quote to pay child support, regardless of the type of job he works out with threats of jail time if he fails.

The issue stands, when women have sex, they have rights. When men have sex they only have responsibilities and no rights.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #10 of 382
Responsibility...yeah.

When a woman makes the CHOICE to have sex, she can also then have the CHOICE to shirk her RESPONSIBILITY to her unborn child and abort it.

When a man makes the CHOICE to have sex, he is forced to have RESPONSIBILITY if the woman makes the CHOICE to keep the child.

When a woman makes the CHOICE to abort her unborn child, the father has NO CHOICE in the matter. While he may be willing to exercise RESPONSIBILITY in raising the child, he has no legal right to save the life of his unborn child.

Something is wrong with this picture, isn't it?
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post #11 of 382
Why this is even a debate is foolish.

Yes I agree with Women. It's "their" bodies. Let them do what they must even if that means aborting a child that the Father wants dearly.

However on the flipside. A potential "Father" should be able to opt out if he decides that having a child is not in "his" best interests.

Having a child is a joint effort and the responsibility is shared. Men working strenuous jobs to pay child suppor is auxillary to the real issue which is there is a clear imbalance of rights between Men and Women on this issue. This imbalance does not have to exist.

I have a Step Father that I care for. Why do people automatically assume that a Father has to be Biological. This potentially fosters and unwillingness for Men to bond with a child that isn't theirs.

The responsibility to change this rests with Men. However we don't unify and correct this problem. There is a social stigma about Men who impregnate and run and I feel that while many of us may agree. We keep quiet about it for fear of coming off as a supporter of Men who wish to shirk their duties.
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post #12 of 382
Quote:
Originally posted by CosmoNut
When a man makes the CHOICE to have sex, he is forced to have RESPONSIBILITY if the woman makes the CHOICE to keep the child.

If you as a man want no kids, is it so difficult to use a condom? Or do a vasectomy? Or not have sex with any women of potential reproduction age?
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post #13 of 382
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Women are also allowed to relinquish their paternal rights outside of the body as well with adoption and abandonment.

Do you support the same rights for men?

Nick

Abandonment? I'm not sure what rights a women has in the case of abandonment. Mostly I've read about women going to jail because of it. That doesn't seem like a 'right' in the sense you're discussing.

What rights do women have in the case of adoption that men don't have?

Lastly, the courts have learned over time that men are worse parents than women. Should they be allowed to take that into consideration? Of the two cases closest to me the courts have ruled once for the mom and once for the day (two seperate cases for two seperate sets of parents and kids.) In both cases the court ruled correctly in my opinion. I'm only saying that the evidence I've seen is that the courts look at individual cases and rule accordingly and that in my experience have been accurate.
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post #14 of 382
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
The issue stands, when women have sex, they have rights. When men have sex they only have responsibilities and no rights.

Excuse me?
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post #15 of 382
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Why this is even a debate is foolish.

Yes I agree with Women. It's "their" bodies. Let them do what they must even if that means aborting a child that the Father wants dearly.

However on the flipside. A potential "Father" should be able to opt out if he decides that having a child is not in "his" best interests.

Having a child is a joint effort and the responsibility is shared. Men working strenuous jobs to pay child suppor is auxillary to the real issue which is there is a clear imbalance of rights between Men and Women on this issue. This imbalance does not have to exist.

I have a Step Father that I care for. Why do people automatically assume that a Father has to be Biological. This potentially fosters and unwillingness for Men to bond with a child that isn't theirs.

The responsibility to change this rests with Men. However we don't unify and correct this problem. There is a social stigma about Men who impregnate and run and I feel that while many of us may agree. We keep quiet about it for fear of coming off as a supporter of Men who wish to shirk their duties.

However we really should discuss that stigma as well. Women who slept around before they were married were "sluts" or "easy." Now they are just sexually liberated. If a man doesn't want to be a parent it shouldn't be a stigma.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #16 of 382
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Giaguara
Excuse me?

If a man has sex, what are his rights with regard to terminating parental rights?

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #17 of 382
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
If a man has sex, what are his rights with regard to terminating parental rights?

Nick

Don't have unprotecterd sex so nobody can come to rant to you about any parental rights.
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post #18 of 382
Quote:
If you as a man want no kids, is it so difficult to use a condom? Or do a vasectomy? Or not have sex with any women of potential reproduction age

Why put the onus on Men? Women share this very same responsibility yet they are given a "Get out of Parenting" pass. Why not us??

Quote:
Lastly, the courts have learned over time that men are worse parents than women

This is totally irrelevant. The crux of this issue is not who is the best parent but who should be able to absolve themselves of being a Parent. Women have that right. Men don't. End of story.

Quote:
Don't have unprotecterd sex so nobody can come to rant to you about any parental rights.

Are you really this ignorant? I know you feel it's some Noble gesture for a Man to owe up to his responsibilty but the facts are we cannot move forwared as a society based on equality if such imbalance exist. What is so wrong in the Country that we have completely different sets of rules for the genders? Period and point blank Women have JUST as much responsibily as Men regarding reproduction yet they have the control and Men do not. They too can abstain from sex "G"
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post #19 of 382
The other thing that gets me about all these issues is that pro-abortionists think that women should be able to have it both ways. My argument:
  • Men and women alike are not allowed by law to use drugs such as cocaine, heroine, marijuana, etc.
  • Men and women alike are not allowed to attempt suicide without consequences.
  • Men and women alike, in most states, aren't legally allowed to ride in a vehicle without a seat belt or on a motorcycle without a helmet.
In each of the examples above, the law has limited what you are allowed to do with/to your own body. In each of those cases, the law has dictated that you are not allowed to CHOOSE to do that which puts your body in harms way, and that if you do, you will suffer the consequences under the law. I don't see how being pregnant can be considered that much different under the law. The law could state that women are not allowed to do potential damage to their own body and the unborn child by requiring that women go full term and deliver the baby. If the woman doesn't want the baby, it would then be the law's responsibility to find an adoptive home for the child...or maybe even the child would become the responsibility of the father if he is so willing.

I guess what I'm saying is that in the legal system, people must take RESPONSIBILITY for CHOICES that they make. You kill a person, you get punished. If you injure someone in a car accident by driving drunk, you get punished. When a woman chooses to have sex, she must understand that pregancy may be a consequence that follows. Murderers cannot unkill their victim after their choice is made. Drunk drivers cannot uninjure someone after they get behind the wheel. So why should a woman be allowed to unimpregnate herself by killing an unborn child after she chose to have sex?

EDIT: Or here's an idea! Let's outlaw sex for women who are registered as not allowed to be impregnated. After all, abstinence is the only way to guarantee that someone won't get pregnant or contract an STD. So that's the answer: Either make sex or abortion illegal. Which one should we pick? \
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post #20 of 382
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Giaguara
If you as a man want no kids, is it so difficult to use a condom? Or do a vasectomy? Or not have sex with any women of potential reproduction age?

Is it so difficult for women to remember a little pill or to say no?

Likewise who would get a vasectomy at such an early age?!? Would you have 17-18 year olds getting them?

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #21 of 382
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Why put the onus on Men? Women share this very same responsibility yet they are given a "Get out of Parenting" pass. Why not us??
[...]
Are you really this ignorant? I know you feel it's some Noble gesture for a Man to owe up to his responsibilty but the facts are we cannot move forwared as a society based on equality if such imbalance exist. What is so wrong in the Country that we have completely different sets of rules for the genders? Period and point blank Women have JUST as much responsibily as Men regarding reproduction yet they have the control and Men do not. They too can abstain from sex "G"

1) I have not said the responsability is men's. In the first hand, it's the woman's FAULT if she gets pregnant (unless raped). But it's not only her. Never trust a woman who says she's on pill, she can simply "forget" it.

How about requesting a signature on a piece of paper before every sexual intercourse with a woman stating that you two use the xx and yy methods of protection (e.g. the pill and the condom), and in case of a potential failure of both / all methods, she has no rights for any kind of damage, including pregnancy?

2) I have not said it's all men's responsabilities or noble gestures, there aren't any noble men or women... How many countries are there in this world where a woman can not get an abort even if she was raped? And it's not just the 3rd world countries but even Ireland... At least I hope in all those countries the women are allowed to get the money out of the rapists... but like the money would in those cases bring back the dignity and life (the life that she had before having kids)?

As said, in normal case if a woman finds herself pregnant it's her own fault, even if she's a moron.
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post #22 of 382
Now consider this logic. There is debate over whether the unborn child is considered a life or not. Well it's fairly obvious that to some the child is "not" a life if they wish to abort. However, should someone else cause the Death of that unborn Fetus then things change and that Fetus is now counted as a life.

This is why Liberal views of laws is dangerous. Anything beyond the base rights of each gender is immaterial. Every possible right extended to Women needs to be also extended to Men.

You know. There's a reason why the Equal Rights amendment failed back in the 70s. Upon introspection you will see that there are many Laws that are biased towards a particular Gender and making a Constitutional Amemdment would have been just the loophole needed for many of both Genders.

How long will we continue to extol the virtues of a Democracy when we can't even master it ourselves.
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post #23 of 382
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Is it so difficult for women to remember a little pill or to say no?

Likewise who would get a vasectomy at such an early age?!? Would you have 17-18 year olds getting them?

Nick

It should not be. Only a bastard woman "forgets" the pill, or a bastard man supposes that she MUST be on a pill as she is a) a female and b) says she is on the pill. I personally hate the idea of the pill so I don't use it - but I'm very clear about it.

I don't care at what age anyone disables his/her reproductional possibilities, it's up to personal choises.



How about asking a written document before having sex where she declares she will not became pregnant because of the sex you have with her, and if she breaks the deal, YOU will get her to court and ask 1'000'000 $ for the damage caused to you and your sufferings?
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post #24 of 382
They meet in a bar.

They start talking.

They go back to her place.

They start kissing.

They move to the bedroom.

They rip each others clothes off.

And then...

"Excuse me, could you read this and sign at the "x" please?"

Right.
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post #25 of 382
I think "G" is stuck in the "prevention" mode, while the topic is really about a "contingencies" issue. In a "perfect" world, prevention would be 100% effective. However, we should all know that the world is not perfect. Thus we have contingencies. Right now the contingencies are imbalanced, as has already been stated. Both sexes should have equal rights to "opt-out" of parental responsibility within a certain time period. No one is "forcing" a woman to have an abortion. She can keep it or whatever she pleases. However, she should acknowledge the biological father's wishes to either abort or not abort, support or not support. If it is "abort" or "not support", that is the "opt-out" agreement. She can keep the baby if she really wants it. There will simply be no expectation of support from "him".
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post #26 of 382
In my esteem, guys, if you don't want to make babies either wear a jimmy hat, use spermicide, have the girl use a diaphram and pray, all at the same time, or abstain, damnit folks you know what the consequenses could be, own up to it. Also in my esteem, this applies to the ladies as well. Abortion as birth control is bad, a pregnancy is not about a single body, it's a symbiosis, it is another life forming in there, and both mother and father should be responsible. Take some resposibility, both guys and gals. As for abortion is special cases, I'll advocate it and hope that the government doesn't outlaw it. I am genuinely troubled by the abortion issue as well by the death penalty. I would not vote to outlaw abortions outside of special cases, because I know just b/c it is illegal does not mean it will not happen, it just means it happens in an unsavory enviroment with the possibility of young women getting killed due to improper procedure and bad conditions. We need to educate people better. Alas, my dreams and ideals far outstrip our reality.
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post #27 of 382
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
The crux of this issue is not who is the best parent but who should be able to absolve themselves of being a Parent. Women have that right. Men don't. End of story.

I'll ask again, how so? I haven't heard a clear argument about this yet.
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post #28 of 382
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
I'll ask again, how so? I haven't heard a clear argument about this yet.

Bunge,

Many states have passed abandonment laws where women can drop off their infant children to hospitals, firestations, etc. with no questions asked. This was done because women would throw them in dumpsters and things of that nature.

Men can't.

Nick

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post #29 of 382
Men can't do what? Take the child from the mother and leave it at a firestation?

I can see the gripe re:child support, but as usual you're taking a semi-valid point and surrounding it with a pile of shit making it difficult to get to.

*cue reactionary spew*
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post #30 of 382
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Many states have passed abandonment laws where women can drop off their infant children to hospitals, firestations, etc. with no questions asked.

As far as I know, they can't do this if the father wants custody. A mother can't abandon a child when the father wants it. So the analogy seems a bit false.
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post #31 of 382
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
Men can't do what? Take the child from the mother and leave it at a firestation?

I can see the gripe re:child support, but as usual you're taking a semi-valid point and surrounding it with a pile of shit making it difficult to get to.

*cue reactionary spew*

As hmurchison mentioned...

Quote:
The crux of this issue is not who is the best parent but who should be able to absolve themselves of being a Parent. Women have that right. Men don't. End of story.

Women can absolve themselves even after the child is born. That was the point that Bunge was doubting. (at least as I understood it)

You are welcome to clear away the "shit." The article mentioned that men, within a month of learning of their impending fatherhood could decide to renounce their paternal rights. It isn't a lifelong choice or something they could decide to do in the midst of divorce with children from the marriage, etc.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #32 of 382
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Bunge,

Many states have passed abandonment laws where women can drop off their infant children to hospitals, firestations, etc. with no questions asked. This was done because women would throw them in dumpsters and things of that nature.

Men can't.

Nick

Women would not throw their infants in dumpsters etc. They would and will be charged for murder if they do that. Even if the kid was the less vivible, ugliest and last last thing on the universe they'd care about.
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post #33 of 382
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Women can absolve themselves even after the child is born.

If a women absolves herself of parenting rights, can't a man put the child up for adoption?

If a women absolves herself of parenting rights, can a man take the child to a firehouse and drop it off?

You're ignoring my main point. That a women can 'abandon' a child only if the father will as well.
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post #34 of 382
If you just don't break the laws in many many states, you practically have no chances to make any women pregnant - even your wife.

It's against the law to make love to a virgin, whatever the circumstances, anywhere in the state of Washington. According to the wording of the legislation, it's a major crime even to marry and then spend the night with a virgin bride in that city.

Connecticut still retains an old law forbidding any kind of "private sexual behavior between consenting adults." This odd law makes absolutely no distinction between married and single couples.


Arizona - It is illegal for unmarried persons to have sex. The penalty is three years in prison.

Connecticut - "Private sexual behavior between consenting adults" is still illegal.

Michigan - Sex between unmarried consenting adults is punishable by a fine up to $5000 and/or up to five years in prison.

Rhode Island - It is illegal for unmarried persons to have sex. The fine is $10.

Texas - Sex between unmarried consenting adults is punishable by a $500 fine.

Nevada - sex without a condom is considered illegal.

Sodomy laws still: (forbids any non-reproductive, non-commericial sex between adults in private)
Alabama, Florida, Idaho, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, Utah, Virgina and Puerto Rico.
(Utah -sex with an animalunless performed for profitis not considered sodomy and therefore is legal. )

Georgia -a man was sentenced to five years in prison for engaging in oral sex. With his wife. With her consent. In their home.

Single guys and gals caught in the act of sex in Michigan can be fined as much as $5,000, and they could be sentenced to as many as five years in prison. Single adults in Texas who are apprehended while having sex are charged with a misdemeanor and given a $500 fine.

Rhode Island prohibits unmarried people from partaking of bedroom activities under any circumstances. However, if caught, the lovers are both fined $10.

Unmarried adults in Arizona who decide to fool around a little are committing a serious felony. Anyone single, man or woman, caught having sex can be sent to the penitentiary for three full years.


How many problems have you modified or originated in the past 1 day?
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How many problems have you modified or originated in the past 1 day?
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post #35 of 382
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
As far as I know, they can't do this if the father wants custody. A mother can't abandon a child when the father wants it. So the analogy seems a bit false.

If the mother has abandoned the child she didn't have to name the father. Hospitals only require mothers to name the fathers to get benefits. If the father's name isn't on the birth certificate, he would have to find the abandoned child and attempt to establish paternity. He would have to do all this before the court entered a decision terminating all parental rights.

Likewise I didn't claim it was a perfect solution. It is just an example of how women can terminate their rights even after birth. If you wanted to say that men, when notified during the pregnancy would have one month to terminate their parental rights, I doubt I would argue against that.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #36 of 382
Quote:
Originally posted by Giaguara
Women would not throw their infants in dumpsters etc. They would and will be charged for murder if they do that.

Women would do that, and it was these needless deaths that prompted the amnesty for handing in new-born children.

It wasn't, as some in this thread would have you believe, some femi-nazi plot to give extra rights to women, and so if you really want men to have these 'rights' too then all you have to do is start a campaign to encourage mentally unbalanced men to kill their new-born children.

Likewise, the pragmatic among us accept that sex will continue to happen and unwanted children will continue to be born, and further that many of these unwanted children will be aborted wehther it is legal or not. This will result in many deaths and other unpleasantness.

To change this we need better sex education, better availability of effective contraception and better financial, emotional and moral support for women who find themselves pregnant in difficult circumstances.

In conclusion, if you want to ban abortion then just come out and say so. This bollocks about male/female equality is just tiring.
a flirt with mediocrity comes with heavy penalty
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a flirt with mediocrity comes with heavy penalty
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post #37 of 382
the premise that women only care for a child for 9 months while a man cares for it for 18 years is the stupidest thing I have ever seen.

the rest of whatever blather these fools are talking about should be judged in that light.

your sperm, your kid. deal.
post #38 of 382
Ya ever wonder how many babies get tossed in dumpsters and never found? I do.
post #39 of 382
Okay, with all this discussion, we still haven't tackled the main point:

If a pregnant woman is dead-set on aborting her unborn baby, what legal rights does the father have if he wants to keep it? None, and that's not right.
Living life in glorious 4G HD (with a 2GB data cap).
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Living life in glorious 4G HD (with a 2GB data cap).
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post #40 of 382
Quote:
your sperm, your kid. deal.

And that benefits a child in which way? Being a Sperm Donor doesn't make you a Father. It's simple ..forget the cute slogans and look at the bedrock of this issue. Women should not be allowed to have Abortions if Men have no say so in being comdemned to financially and/or emotionally support a child they have no desire to have.

I don't give a rip about the other rather extranneous issues. Frankly I'm pretty tired of seeing shitty parents of both Genders.

I do believe it is a Womans body and our Gov has some tough choices to make. Either disallow Abortions in %95 of all cases or allow them and also allow potential Fathers to Op Out. This issue really isn't that tough. Every inequality that our Gov allows to exist potentially weakens faith in our Gov and way of life. This doesn't have to happen.
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
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He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
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