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PPC 970 date?

post #1 of 345
Thread Starter 
I've been reading rumors of a february debut, a 3rd quarter debut and 2004 debut.

Everybody seems to have their very own personal sources!
And what I would like to know is, what does YOUR source('s) indicate?

Who has 'official' rumors and who has 'unofficial' rumors, and who's just guessing?

I (Guess) august-september.
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post #2 of 345
The fall.
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post #3 of 345
rumour has it as: "Real Soon Now".
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post #4 of 345
My official sources tells me nobody knows
post #5 of 345
Didn't IBM articles clearly state Q3 / 03? Which would be around October.
post #6 of 345
Gauging by the urges of most people in these forums (including myself), I don't think the PPC970 is gonna have any trouble finding a date .
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post #7 of 345
[quote]Originally posted by Chucker:
<strong>Didn't IBM articles clearly state Q3 / 03? Which would be around October.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Q3 begins July 1 and ends Sept 30. October is just when they report Q3 results.
post #8 of 345
when?

probably after apple have waited for the competition to move too far ahead. . . .

seriously though I just hope they don't find a way to hinder the performance of the new systems
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post #9 of 345
<a href="http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/products/powerpc/newsletter/dec2002/newproductfocus2.html" target="_blank">Sampling is scheduled to begin in the second quarter of 2003 with production expected in the second half of 2003.</a>
post #10 of 345
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong><a href="http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/products/powerpc/newsletter/dec2002/newproductfocus2.html" target="_blank">Sampling is scheduled to begin in the second quarter of 2003 with production expected in the second half of 2003.</a></strong><hr></blockquote>
Expected.. But who says Steve didnt let out a few false rumors just to surprise us all by a february announcement? Even YOU might be Steve undercover!
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post #11 of 345
RSN&trade;

What the... that ? should be a ?.

OK. That second question mark should be a superscripted TM. So, yes, I know what RSN is... it just doesn't seem complete without the TM.

[ 01-24-2003: Message edited by: serrano ]

[ 01-24-2003: Message edited by: serrano ]

[edit by Amorph: HTML entities are your friend. ]

[ 01-24-2003: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
post #12 of 345
Not that I would be one to complain, but wouldn't releasing the 970 in February undermine Jobs' whole marketing strategy for the year (or at least what seems his marketing strategy -- "year of the notebook")? But perhaps not, perhaps we'd see something tremendously surprising like we got with the PowerBooks......hmmmmm..... IBM is a darn well-run company - they could ramp up production and have given late dates on the advice of Apple who they're bound by contract with (assuming Apple's even chosen to use the 970, but c'ommon!). Perhaps a 970 release in the XServe will come in February - at least this way Apple can blow the socks off the benchmarks with *some* machine, albeit a server.

Awwwww, mom!! I wanna 970!!! Mom!!

This is how sad I've become. Pitiful. But wouldn't it be darn nice to see Apple release this thing? They could be responsible for sparking the computer industry to make a turnaround if they market it well enough. I say phooey with the Switcher commercials - they're demeaning and humiliating to both the Mac platform and their "actors." Bring back Ridley Scott for some incredible work again, Apple -- spend the money, do something dramatic instead of silly and cute as your commercials have been!
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post #13 of 345
IBM are under a legal obligation, as a result of an anti-trust settlement, to announce (reasonably) accurately their forthcoming plans. If they say sampling in Q2 and production in Q3, a mere six months before the first of those dates, then they cannot wildly diverge without serious questions being asked.

However, were they to make a variation on the 970 for a specific customer as a custom chip, they don't have to pre-announce it at all, and may be contractually required not to.

&lt; Wild speculation mode&gt; If Apple came along some years ago and spoke to IBM, saying "How about taking your plans for a POWER4 lite and making us a special version, dual core, shared L2, on-board memory controller, and our nice ApplePI interface?". IBM would probably have said "Show us the money and we'll do it." I like to think of it as the PPC 977, could appear any time, and, being a custom design, knowledge would not even be widespread within IBM. &lt;/Wild speculation mode&gt;

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post #14 of 345
Along those lines, IBM only promised ship dates for the .13&mu; 970. What if they have one coming fabbed at 18&mu;? That would explain why they're not being fabbed at Fishkill right now, and why the PowerMac has so many radical means to cool its innards.

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
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post #15 of 345
I hadn't thought of that...---what an incredibly great wild speculative sentiment. Like I said, Apple'll probably throw us another curve ball, and something like you describe seems to fit that bill rather nicely -- considering Steve-o's little remarks to CNBC ("some things up our sleeve..." tends to imply a design nobody knows about, right? So why would they go on the well-known 970? Even a slight deviation is still just that -- and it's its own proc...)

wow, excited, hoping...thinking.

Anyone else?
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post #16 of 345
[quote]Originally posted by mmicist:
<strong>IBM are under a legal obligation, as a result of an anti-trust settlement, to announce (reasonably) accurately their forthcoming plans. If they say sampling in Q2 and production in Q3, a mere six months before the first of those dates, then they cannot wildly diverge without serious questions being asked.

However, were they to make a variation on the 970 for a specific customer as a custom chip, they don't have to pre-announce it at all, and may be contractually required not to.

&lt; Wild speculation mode&gt; If Apple came along some years ago and spoke to IBM, saying "How about taking your plans for a POWER4 lite and making us a special version, dual core, shared L2, on-board memory controller, and our nice ApplePI interface?". IBM would probably have said "Show us the money and we'll do it." I like to think of it as the PPC 977, could appear any time, and, being a custom design, knowledge would not even be widespread within IBM. &lt;/Wild speculation mode&gt;

michael</strong><hr></blockquote>


I like "wild speculation mode"...lol....honestly most of it sounds like it could be withine the realm of possabilities, especially given IBM's past deals with Nintendo and now with Sony to build custom PowerPC chips. The only difference is that all of these deals were pre-announced, and this only helps IBM. Not anouncing a deal like this may or may not be in IBM's best interest, they do afterall need to answer to stockholders. The only part of your described chip that I dont think is in the realm of possability is the dual core. If they had a dual core version of the 970 they would have anounced it.
post #17 of 345
[quote]Originally posted by Amorph:
<strong>Along those lines, IBM only promised ship dates for the .13&mu; 970. What if they have one coming fabbed at 18&mu;? That would explain why they're not being fabbed at Fishkill right now, and why the PowerMac has so many radical means to cool its innards.

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

.... wow... :eek:

well, that will be a lot of updates till mwsf2004
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post #18 of 345
[quote]Originally posted by Amorph:
<strong>Along those lines, IBM only promised ship dates for the .13&mu; 970. What if they have one coming fabbed at 18&mu;? That would explain why they're not being fabbed at Fishkill right now, and why the PowerMac has so many radical means to cool its innards.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Great observation.
post #19 of 345
[quote]Originally posted by @homenow:
<strong>


I like "wild speculation mode"...lol....honestly most of it sounds like it could be withine the realm of possabilities, especially given IBM's past deals with Nintendo and now with Sony to build custom PowerPC chips. The only difference is that all of these deals were pre-announced, and this only helps IBM. Not anouncing a deal like this may or may not be in IBM's best interest, they do afterall need to answer to stockholders. The only part of your described chip that I dont think is in the realm of possability is the dual core. If they had a dual core version of the 970 they would have anounced it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

But Nintendo and Sony wanted to announce, so IBM were only too happy. The shareholders know that IBM are a foundry, they make chips for other people, so long as they charge a reasonable rate, that's all the stockholders need to know.
Dual core is possible, with 512K shared L2, you are probably talking about 200mm^2 chip area, for 1M L2, about 240mm^2. Whilst more expensive than the current G4, should be considerably cheaper than two, and the high bandwidth should eliminate the need for L3 cache, which is very expensive to imlement.

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post #20 of 345
My guess is the third quarter of this year. Any later would only drag Apple's proits down due to declining sales and Apple is not known for being early either.
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post #21 of 345
My guess is that none of us really know what apple will release. That what we most expect will be the last thing to happen and that whatever apple does will be good enough to hold them over but not good enough to bash Intel. That we will all be dissapointed when the time comes but will all race out to buy the new machines anyway. Then we'll all complain for 4 years about how apple's are to slow and that we need the G6. We will all go on about how great the G6 is and how much better it will be compared to Intel. In the mean time apple will stop going to trade shows and we will never have a clue as to when anything will be announced. This site will slowly dissolve into nothingness because of lack of rumors and then one day apple will be bought by Micro$soft and shut down. And of course because of the super Apple secrecy no one will know about it for 7 years. Oh and did I forget to say that the PPC970 will be out this year. Oh wait we already know that. Gosh you guys... you all know that apple will take their sweet time on it.
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post #22 of 345
Have a little faith. We are no longer dealing with the likes of Moto.
post #23 of 345
[quote]Originally posted by sc_markt:
<strong>

Great observation.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Don't forget the <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> at the end of that post, though.

I don't even want to think about how hot one of those puppies would run, let alone two. They would be venturing up into P4 and Athlon territory.

Also, apparently the leap from .18&mu; to .13&mu; is a big one technically - or from .15&mu; to .13&mu; - and the subsequent shrink to .09&mu; is comparatively easy. So what I'm talking about is essentially a limited run of the 970 (the 969?) specifically tweaked for the .18&mu; -or, for a larger than .13&mu; - process, concurrent with the announced 970.

Given: that it would require its own engineering effort; that it would be physically large, that it would have a very short shelf life, that it would be hard pressed to clock much higher than the current G4; that adapting the design to be fabbed on .13&mu; would be a nontrivial task (doable, though, especially if they'd prepared for it); I consider this fairly unlikely. Large size + limited quantity + high heat = high cost, especially from the most expensive foundry in the world.

[ 01-24-2003: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
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post #24 of 345
[quote]Originally posted by Amorph:
<strong>

Don't forget the <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> at the end of that post, though.

I don't even want to think about how hot one of those puppies would run, let alone two. They would be venturing up into P4 and Athlon territory.

Also, apparently the leap from .18&mu; to .13&mu; is a big one technically - or from .15&mu; to .13&mu; - and the subsequent shrink to .09&mu; is comparatively easy. So what I'm talking about is essentially a limited run of the 970 (the 969?) specifically tweaked for the .18&mu; -or, for a larger than .13&mu; - process, concurrent with the announced 970.

Given: that it would require its own engineering effort; that it would be physically large, that it would have a very short shelf life, that it would be hard pressed to clock much higher than the current G4; that adapting the design to be fabbed on .13&mu; would be a nontrivial task (doable, though, especially if they'd prepared for it); I consider this fairly unlikely. Large size + limited quantity + high heat = high cost, especially from the most expensive foundry in the world.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

By applying Occam's Razor to this situation it would seem that the most logical conclusion that we will see a 0.13&mu; 970 in the August-October timeframe. Is everybody so desperately bored that they have to sit around speculating on this over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over, ad infinitum ad nauseum...?

Lets at least speculate about interesting things while we wait.
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post #25 of 345
[quote]Originally posted by Spart:
<strong>Have a little faith. We are no longer dealing with the likes of Moto. </strong><hr></blockquote>

As of now we're still bound to them. But as soon as the complete line of Apple's computers have made the (real) "switch" to IBM's 970 we may define ourselves as being grown up. It's a painful slow bandwagen we're on right now heading west, and I do hope things will change in this regard.
post #26 of 345
Given Apple needs to release a 970 based PowerMac as soon as possible, but not repeat the mistakes of the G4 introduction (lack of chips, down grading of processor speeds etc), I guess the Autumn.

I can't see them being released before that, given Steve Jobs announced a short time ago it's the year of the notebook. An Autumn introduction would have quantities in place for the year of the desktop, next year.

[ 01-25-2003: Message edited by: RodUK ]</p>
post #27 of 345
For what it's worth:

Just found this <a href="http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,806465,00.asp" target="_blank">PC Mag</a>


Motorola's road map includes a G5 built on 0.13-micron technology, using the relatively new RapidIO bus architecture for connecting CPUs or other I/O components on the motherboard. Both 32-bit and 64-bit versions will operate at 1.2 to 2 GHz. The estimated release date is June or July.

Interestingly, it is rumored that Apple may use the recently disclosed IBM PowerPC 970 architecture, a scaled-down version of IBM's 64-bit Power4 architecture. The 970 will be built on a 0.13-micron process, use SOI technology, run both 32-bit and 64-bit code, and start at around 1.4 GHz with a 512K L2 cache. The chip will ship in quantity in the second half of 2003. Apple is not saying whether it will use IBM's or Motorola's technologies.



For the most part it's good reading, also found a processor roadmap.




Only hope, whatever Apple chooses to do, they do it quick.

[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: iCom ]</p>
post #28 of 345
Its worth what you paid for it. They don't know any more than we do, they just have a fancy website to "publish" their information on.
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post #29 of 345
heh, looking at that roadmap, Apple's not going to find themselves in much better of a situation come next year -- they'll merely be "on par" with the other Wintel machines it would seem (if the roadmap's any good). But I don't see, well, I hope that Steve doesn't accept second best again. I'm sick and tired of having to settle...Macs should have the hardware to glorify the already brilliant software (that's another myth out there from Wintelon people --- "there's no games for Mac..." blah, blah, blah -- if you're that idle then you don't need the Mac anyway).

To answer the thing about this being "boring" speculation - yep. But oh, well. We need something soon - and hearing that the next desktop may not appear til this time NEXT year is a bit disappointing. <img src="embarrassed.gif" border="0">
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post #30 of 345
[quote]Originally posted by Amorph:
<strong>

Don't forget the <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> at the end of that post, though.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

I saw it. I guess I'm getting desperate for any piece of information that could point to ppc970 powermacs being released in a few weeks.
post #31 of 345
[quote]Originally posted by Programmer:
<strong>

By applying Occam's Razor to this situation it would seem that the most logical conclusion that we will see a 0.13&mu; 970 in the August-October timeframe.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I really hate having to explain jokes, and I really hate it when I have to explain the explanation.

But yes, that was my point in a nutshell.

[quote]<strong>Lets at least speculate about interesting things while we wait.</strong><hr></blockquote>

So, uhhh, come to Future Hardware often?
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post #32 of 345
[quote]Originally posted by fred_lj:
<strong>heh, looking at that roadmap, Apple's not going to find themselves in much better of a situation come next year -- they'll merely be "on par" with the other Wintel machines it would seem (if the roadmap's any good).</strong><hr></blockquote>

Realistically "on par" is about as good as we can really expect. Apple doesn't have some source of magic pixie dust that lets them build supercomputers. "on par" is a slippery term, however, and frankly if on paper the Apple machines are rated the same speed as the contemporary PCs then its a pretty safe bet that in practice they'll be faster. And certainly much nicer to use. And given the current relative performance, "on par" is going to be a tremendous improvement.

Another thing to note about the roadmap is that Intel and AMD publish theirs, Motorola and IBM don't (at least not in any formal sense). The 2004/2005 columns are blank for the PowerPC guys, but that doesn't mean there aren't products there. We know the POWER5 and POWER6 are coming, so its a pretty good bet that we will see the 980 and 990, and they will be at least "on par" with Intel's deliveries.
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post #33 of 345
[quote]Originally posted by Amorph:
<strong>
I really hate having to explain jokes, and I really hate it when I have to explain the explanation.

But yes, that was my point in a nutshell.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sorry, I just clicked on your message at random in order to inject my comment. I think you and I are more or less in agreement.

[quote]<strong>
So, uhhh, come to Future Hardware often?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Far too often, I just don't feel like actually doing any work right now...
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post #34 of 345
[quote]Originally posted by Programmer:
<strong>

Realistically "on par" is about as good as we can really expect. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Certainly in the desktop market that has become use to a single fast processor that might be the case and I wouldn't be surprised if the 970 is a touch behind the PIV of the time. In fact I'd be amazed if it wasn't considering Intel will have moved to 90 nm production.

Where I'd expect the PPC 970 to be a very nice chip is in 2 way, 4 way or 8 way solutions against the likes of Xeons or Opterons. I rather expect IBM is planning it that way too it is just a question of cost now. Personally I think that would be the best argument for why Apple should finally release some much higher end (and higher margin) workstations or servers using 4 or even 8 processors.

[ 01-26-2003: Message edited by: Telomar ]</p>
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post #35 of 345
[quote]Originally posted by Programmer:
<strong>And given the current relative performance, "on par" is going to be a tremendous improvement.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm still obsessing over the floating point improvements. A 1GHz G4 scores SpecFP=187, a 1.8 GHz ppc 970 is conservatively estimated at 1051. I don't see that as 'on par' inprovement for the year
post #36 of 345
[quote]Originally posted by Nevyn:
<strong>I'm still obsessing over the floating point improvements. A 1GHz G4 scores SpecFP=187, a 1.8 GHz ppc 970 is conservatively estimated at 1051. I don't see that as 'on par' inprovement for the year </strong><hr></blockquote>

The 2.8 GHz P4 posts just under 1000 SPECfp, and it will be &gt; 3 GHz by the time the 970 arrives. That seems "on par" to me. It will kick the snot out of the G4 though.
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post #37 of 345
"on par" performance would be more than welcome.
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post #38 of 345
sorry I ever uttered the dreaded term...I don't even realistically need the 970. There, I said it. I still run a G3/400 laptop for god's sake; I don't know why I really care that much about it -- getting a TiBook since the prices will be dropping will be a good upgrade for me --'ve never used a G4 in full practice with apps that are written to take advantage of it. Apple must move ahead, agreed. They're choosing to move ahead in the area that's their strength right now - notebooks, and they're listening for our input (or so it would seem with the Al-Book's improvements).

Perhaps next year at this time we will have seen the release of the second revision of 970-based Powermacs. My thinking is that the PowerBook may stay G4-based like *my* PowerBook was for quite some time until the Tis came around in Jan. '01 (was almost two years with no G4 laptop).
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post #39 of 345
NEVER! It's NEVER COMING OUT!
post #40 of 345
[quote]fred_lj: wouldn't releasing the 970 in February undermine Jobs' whole marketing strategy for the year (or at least what seems his marketing strategy -- "year of the notebook")?<hr></blockquote>

I think the marketing strategy has devolved more to "don't get slaughtered like arthritic, myopic old mutton."

They'll put out faster machines as soon as they can possibly do so.
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