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PPC 970 date? - Page 5

post #161 of 345
I'll have to go digging for a link to the article, but apparently IBM's Fishkill fab is already running at about 1/3 capacity, satisfying orders for customers. IBM expects it to ramp up steadily from there and reach full bore by the end of the year.

So there's definitely something coming off the lines as we speak. And it's not sampling.
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post #162 of 345
Thats exciting, I could see this all rolling together nicely for this...imagine.... FCP 4 (which could stay 32bit until a 4.01 and then go 64 bit..but...) is out in June, and WWDC released PPC970 based macs, then DVDSP and Shake kick in soon after in 64bit, and judging on Apple, if they released their 970 systems, a 1-2 month delay after ordering is expected. I still go for a WWDC release for the 970, i'd be dissapointed if it took longer. I think I am going to hold off on my purchases of Apple hardware until the 970 comes out. It seems foolish to buy a system that will be DESTROYED by these new products that will be out FOR SURE within 1 year of my purchase. Makes ya think, doesn't it?
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post #163 of 345
from MacBidouille :
"Yesterday, Peter Sandon - father of the PPC970 - gave his ok to go to production. The PPC970 is exempt of any bugs and good to go. As of April 15, it will be manufactured in IBM fabs and integrated in IBM Blade servers at the end of june (and of course in Apple Macintosh)."

Can't wait !

edit: spelling
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post #164 of 345
Full translation, with some changes:

Up to now, all PowerPC 970 processors manufactured have been prototypes, made for testing purposes. The 970 is now considered completely bug-free and ready for production. Yesterday, Peter Sandon father of the 970 gave the green light.

As of April 15, the 970 will be manufactured in quantity in IBM factories. Starting the end of June, the chips will be integrated in IBM Blade servers and in Apple systems. One may note the proximity of the dates for IBM's introduction and WWDC. Knowing Apple, they have probably negotiated for an exclusive rollout a few days early.
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post #165 of 345
Must - fight - the urge - to hope.

Now watch them first be in Xserves and delayed for the PowerMacs until late September. (Ah there, a refreshing splash of pessimism).

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post #166 of 345
No mention of chip speeds?
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post #167 of 345
We, and Apple, will be facing the fact that the 970's clock speed will be equal or only mildly higher than the G4, but the actual processing power will be much greater (irrespective of its 64-bitness, as discussed to death). So there's a perception gap Apple will have to drag users across.

We might see a "bakeoff" (one last time and hopefully not just Photoshop) of the P4, G4 and the 970 (imagine a 3GHz, a dual 1.4 and a single 1.4 and the 970, hopefully, wiping the floor with the others).

Apple will be in a position to talk a lot about the speed (that hasn't happened in good, long while). I wonder how Steve will sell it?

Come to think of it, when was the last time Steve committed some actual RDF on PowerMacs?? When they introduced the Superdrive?? Sheesh, it's been a bit, hasn't it?!

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post #168 of 345
Quote:
Originally posted by sCreeD
a refreshing splash of pessimism


... a smack of reality's Aqua Velva ...

Great phrase sCreeD
(think I'll borrow it)
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post #169 of 345
Quote:
Originally posted by jeromba
from MacBidouille :
"Yesterday, Peter Sandon - father of the PPC970 - has give his ok to go to production. The PPC970 is exempt of any bugs en good to go. As of April 15, it will be manufactured in IBM fabs. It will be integrated in IBM Blade servers at the end of june and of course in Apple Macintosh."

Can't wait !

When is WWDC? May or something? Maybe we'll see an unveiling of something wicked!
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post #170 of 345
Mmmmm, bake-off cookies!
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post #171 of 345
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
When is WWDC? May or something? Maybe we'll see an unveiling of something wicked!

A comment that truly shows you need to spend WAY more time in this forum...

While in years past (always?) Apple has held WWDC in May this year it's been moved to June (and before you ask) MWNY has indeed been canceled and kinda replaced with a show called 'Create' (blech) that will NOT have Steve Jobs as a keynote speaker.

Dave
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post #172 of 345
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
When is WWDC? May or something? Maybe we'll see an unveiling of something wicked!

It was, Steve moved it back to June and that's why everyone think he postponed for the 970 launch. This article seems to say that the 970 will be ready by then.
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post #173 of 345
I had a dream last night that on apples web site they had anounced the 970 machines. the only info on them was a teaser apple store looking page, same way its set up now with the 4 powermac versions, but like 6-7 versions with no pictures just prices and a little info on features and weird names like 3452gi 68349 for the different models. Prices ranged from 1200 to 18000. and we were all going crazy talking about it
post #174 of 345
Quote:
Originally posted by Ti Fighter
I had a dream last night that on apples web site they had anounced the 970 machines. the only info on them was a teaser apple store looking page, same way its set up now with the 4 powermac versions, but like 6-7 versions with no pictures just prices and a little info on features and weird names like 3452gi 68349 for the different models. Prices ranged from 1200 to 18000. and we were all going crazy talking about it

$18,000!?!?!? Damn, don't let Matsu see that!
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post #175 of 345
Quote:
Originally posted by OverToasty
... a smack of reality's Aqua Velva ...

Sounds like something The Tick might say.

(Damn! Why'd they have to cancel that show!?)
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post #176 of 345
Quote:
Originally posted by sCreeD
We, and Apple, will be facing the fact that the 970's clock speed will be equal or only mildly higher than the G4, but the actual processing power will be much greater (irrespective of its 64-bitness, as discussed to death). So there's a perception gap Apple will have to drag users across.

True. The "megahertz myth" is actually going to be more of a problem with the 970, because there will be more of a performance/mhz differential than with the G4.
post #177 of 345
Quote:
Originally posted by 709
No mention of chip speeds?

They're planning to roll them out at 400MHz, 450MHz and 500MHz this June.

*running*
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post #178 of 345
poll:


if you were apple/jobs and you are going to release 907s in August. would you

a) switch to a AMD type raiting* - Power Mac 4800 (dual 1.8 hgz.) meaning it runs some aps like a 4.8 gig intel.

b) find a different way to explain mzh...


*the hard part of this is how / what benchmarks do you use?

1) ones that ususally favor intel chips anyway,
2) zd type office benchmarks (knowing M$ does not optimize as much as they do for the win versions)
3) graphic benchamrks that show graphic programs benched. main problem is adobe does no opti. certain apps like after effects ...
4) unix benchmarks - then pc people say - yah what about win benchmarks

???

the toughest part is that i have a feeling that there are going to me some goodies on the mother board (vector? GPU? new nvida card with apple extensions, much faster altivec) that makes a rating either that much more worthwhile or worthless.
post #179 of 345
Quote:
Originally posted by Amorph
They're planning to roll them out at 400MHz, 450MHz and 500MHz this June.

*running*

So they'll be equal in speed to what we have now?
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post #180 of 345
Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardf12
if you were apple/jobs and you are going to release 907s in August. would you

a) switch to a AMD type raiting* - Power Mac 4800 (dual 1.8 hgz.) meaning it runs some aps like a 4.8 gig intel.

b) find a different way to explain mzh...

I've said it before: peak operations per second. It allows you to truthfully put forth a wildly high number, it isn't too technical-sounding, and it combines into a cute acronym: POPS.
post #181 of 345
Quote:
Originally posted by Amorph
They're planning to roll them out at 400MHz, 450MHz and 500MHz this June.

*running*

It's true, but those will be the new FSB speeds.

boots
post #182 of 345
2 x 1.8 = 3.6
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post #183 of 345
Quote:
Originally posted by Aphelion
2 x 1.8 = 3.6

But that's not enough -- Apple has to communicate to the customer that the result of your equation is double the performance of the 3.6 GHz x86. It is too bad that "flops" is such a bad acronym.

With the 970 it should be more reasonable for Apple to start using industry standard benchmarks like SPECmarks. The G4 was always hamstrung in those benchmarks but the 970 will apparently do much better. The use of things like MP3 and MPEG compression speeds will also be useful. Even game framerates. It is all going to be much happier with 970...
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post #184 of 345
and everything that did better with a g4 (blast, some compressions) should do _even better with the new bus on the 970... correct?
post #185 of 345
Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardf12
and everything that did better with a g4 (blast, some compressions) should do _even better with the new bus on the 970... correct?

Yes.

My favorite example (can you tell I'm an engineer) is SpecFP, a set of pretty heavily used science/engineering code. It's a benchmark, but it's a pretty darn useful benchmark for actual computational code.

Mot G4 1.0 GHz = 157
IBM 970 1.8 GHz = 1051

That's a _lot_ faster, even scaled to exactly the same GHz.

"Proving" that a ppc970 can beat the living daylights out of a G4 isn't going to take a team of demo-designers or marketing types a year to do. Comparing it to x86 isn't neccesarily important at first - there's probably an upper limit to how many Apple can make. Only after the Mac-types-who-are-waiting (easy sells) are satisfied would Apple really push for PC types. If it does live up to the numbers of the CPU, that might take awhile.
post #186 of 345
The really frightening thing is: Just look at what Apple's squeezing out of the G4! I walked through the web pages introducing the latest FCP and DVDSP and Shake, and you'd honestly think they were talking about something that didn't run on a single G4 on a laptop (well, Shake excepted). Apple has a hardcore mathematics group now, and they've done some really impressive work squeezing performance out of that chip.

In other words, I think it'll actually help the 970 to have been a bit late to the party. Apple's had to get really creative to get the level of performance they get out of their current machines, and they've succeeded. Once the bottlenecks come out, we'll see some real speed.

Meanwhile, MS makes every version of Windows slower and less efficient so that you'll feel compelled to buy the same machine over again, but with bigger numbers in the same places. That's not going to work in their favor, no matter what the potential performance of the hardware underneath happens to be.
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post #187 of 345
On Mac Bidouille today ...

"The 2 mobo of the PPC 970 will have AGP 8x and hypertransport. At the beginning of 2004, with the first update, PCI Express will make its appearance.

There will be no Powerbook PPC 970 before the second quarter 2004, when the 0,9 microns will appear. The current version @ 13 microns develop too much heat. Moreover the combination hypertransport/PPC 970 would give an insufficient autonomy."
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post #188 of 345
Give me strenght to stay put until rev2 and hopefully a DP midrange8)
post #189 of 345
Sign of the Apocalypse: MacBidouille confirming MacOSRumors about the PowerBooks! (Or do you think the CESM* read Meader)?

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post #190 of 345
Mac Whispers is at it again with renewed claims of 970 based Power Macs (and Powerbooks) RSN.

970 based motherboard production

"April 10, 2003
Update: 970 PowerBook Production: Accelerated 970 Production

Further discussions with Apple OEM assembly partners have given us up to date information on motherboard production for both PowerBooks and PowerMacs, both using the IBM PPC 970 processor.

First, we have been told, and we have second-sourced the claim that 15.4-inch PowerBook motherboards are now in production and are shipping regularly to Apple's contract PowerBook assembler. Next, we have been told, and we have also second-sourced a claim that bid requests for a fully-designed 970-based board for the 17-inch PowerBook were received by two assembly plants this past Friday, with a submission deadline for replies of April 30th.

Finally, a reliable source in engineering management at the ODM supplier providing the upcoming PowerMac motherboards has informed us that those boards went into volume production this past Friday, and that first shipments to Apple's final assembly partner for the new PowerMacs is to take place "about April 15th."

We will add that our sources seem consistently taken aback by what they all characterize as the unexpected and very unusual hurry involved in all work on these new desktop and portable Apple products. Every step in each process is being scheduled far tighter than is normal for a new production run."
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post #191 of 345
Let me renew my "minty pessimism": hurried assembly = bad.

It'd be wonderful if PowerMac 970s are introduced June and are ready to ship the minute after the announcement, but this rush to assembly gets me worried. The rollout for this new architecture needs to go flawlessly.

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post #192 of 345
Quote:
Originally posted by sCreeD
The rollout for this new architecture needs to go flawlessly.

Don't worry.
I think that the manufacturers know what they are doing. I think the PPC970 mobo will look - a lot - like the nForce2 mobo : FireWire, USB2, HyperTransport, Dual DDR400, ATA, SATA, Audio 5.1, AGP 8X

Except if Apple go with Apple PI \
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post #193 of 345
Quote:
Originally posted by Mac The Fork
One may note the proximity of the dates for IBM's introduction and WWDC. Knowing Apple, they have probably negotiated for an exclusive rollout a few days early.

Just thinking about this, what about the possibility of a full-scale PowerMac 970 announcement at WWDC, with machines shipping shortly thereafter?

1) MWNY has effectively pulled an eWeek, ceasing to be an appropriate venue for Apple to make big announcements.

2) Apple is pushing this WWDC as a big event, and not just to developers. (home page splash for weeks?)

3) This would be a great opportunity for Apple to introduce developers to the machines and all the yummy goodness they need to know about.

4) The new machines would ship with 10.2.6, which would be entirely 32-bit (970 can run 32-bit code unmodified, right?), and Panther would be the 64-bit OS. OR, the machines would be announced, but not ship until 10.3 is released. If the 10.3 schedule has GM sometime before beginning of August, this may be more likely.
post #194 of 345
Quote:
Originally posted by Alexander
4) The new machines would ship with 10.2.6, which would be entirely 32-bit (970 can run 32-bit code unmodified, right?), and Panther would be the 64-bit OS. OR, the machines would be announced, but not ship until 10.3 is released. If the 10.3 schedule has GM sometime before beginning of August, this may be more likely.

They might well ship with 10.2.6, but that would require "necessary modifications [that] have been designed to be minimal" (quote David Wang) to the kernel. The 970 can't run 32-bit OS's without modification, but 32-bit apps and code.

I wouldn't mind a quick rollout of 970's shipping with 10.2.6, but I wouldn't mind if I have to wait until August/September for 64-bit (or just 64-bit or 970-enabled) Panther. As long as I'm getting this baby this year, I'll wait patiently
post #195 of 345
Apple can put the 970's out with 10.2.6 with a fix for the OS (allowing 32-bit OS to run on PPC970) and then be able to charge big for 10.3 (full 64-bit) in September.

They wouldn't do that would they?
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post #196 of 345
Quote:
Originally posted by jeromba
On Mac Bidouille today ...

" . . . There will be no Powerbook PPC 970 before the second quarter 2004, when the 0,9 microns will appear. The current version @ 13 microns develop too much heat. Moreover the combination hypertransport/PPC 970 would give an insufficient autonomy."


Just an observation that the IBM 970 can operate at lower voltage, clocking 1.2 GHz and dissipating 19 Watt. The same people who say no 970 in the 17 inch PowerBook are saying it will have a dual G4. At 10 Watts each, the dual G4s would dissipate 20 Watts. Their logic escapes me. I think there is a good chance for a "G5" 17 inch PowerBook.
post #197 of 345
Quote:
Originally posted by snoopy
Their logic escapes me. I think there is a good chance for a "G5" 17 inch PowerBook.

I'm an addict of "Pro-Go-Whoa" !
Hoping it will happen a second time with the 970
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post #198 of 345
Quote:
Originally posted by snoopy
Just an observation that the IBM 970 can operate at lower voltage, clocking 1.2 GHz and dissipating 19 Watt. The same people who say no 970 in the 17 inch PowerBook are saying it will have a dual G4. At 10 Watts each, the dual G4s would dissipate 20 Watts. Their logic escapes me. I think there is a good chance for a "G5" 17 inch PowerBook.

How much additional power does a PPC 970 MB (faster FSB, DDR memory, memory controller, etc.) require over a dual G4 MB?
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post #199 of 345
Quote:
Originally posted by Bigc
How much additional power does a PPC 970 MB (faster FSB, DDR memory, memory controller, etc.) require over a dual G4 MB?

I don't know how much information anyone has about that. DDR SDRAM is actually cooler than SDR SDRAM, since it's made on a better process, so I wouldn't expect it to contribute much to the problem. Also, the 'book can shut down unused banks of RAM to conserve power. If Apple uses RapidIO rather than HyperTransport, they'll have an especially power-efficient means to connect the various pieces of their board together. (I don't think HT is all that bad either, actually, but I can't say for sure.)

The things you really worry about in a laptop are the CPU, the GPU, the HDD, the optical drive (especially if it's writable) and the LCD backlight. Those are your major power consumers.

I seem to recall that Apple doesn't use especially dense batteries in the current PowerBooks. They could always switch to denser (and more expensive) battery tech. to make up for any difference
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post #200 of 345
The chipset in a 970 based machine will run at a higher clock rate than a G4 based machine's chipset runs. That will probably increase power/heat dissapation but no hard info is available on what that really works out to be in practice. Apple could probably build a 970-based PowerBook @ 1-1.2 GHz, but I would be surprised if arrived at the same time as the PowerMacs. Of course I wouldn't complain. Personally I think its more likely than a MP PowerBook, but that still doesn't mean I think its likely.

The rushing to production jives with the news that things are going really well at IBM's production facility. Manufacturers compress production schedules all the time, and it isn't necessarily a bad thing from a reliability point of view. The reliability issues are usually the result of design mistakes, and we don't know that Apple compressed the design/testing phases. The compression of the production schedule may also be a result of a longer design/testing cycle and since the 970 is coming out better than expected this has given them the opportunity to hurry things along.
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