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PPC 970 date? - Page 7

post #241 of 345
4/14/03 at 5:00am
Why is this same BS trotted out time after time. Um, hello, we've already seen this one, please move along....
Idiot, slow down....

- The Tourist, Radiohead
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Idiot, slow down....

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post #242 of 345
4/14/03 at 5:20am
Just to give an example of what the 970 will compete against on the other side of the fence (from the current issue of PC World)
__________________________________________________
What's the bottom-line buying advice? Power desktop PC users who favor Intel-based machines may want to sit tight until June. That's the expected debut date for "Prescott," the revamped P4 chip for which the 875P chipset paves the way. Note, too, that you can upgrade PCs with the 875P chip set to Prescott later if you need to buy an Intel system now.

Prescott, likely to launch at a 3.4-GHz clock speed, will double the P4's Level 2 cache and improve the hyperthreading technology. And, Prescott machines should more fully take advantage of the higher-bandwidth memory and 800-MHz bus that the 875P chip set enables, Krewell says.
__________________________________________________
Substantially faster than the current 3.06 Ghz P4 that spank dual G4s.
IBM better get those 970 out of the door pretty soon, and I think they will
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post #243 of 345
4/14/03 at 5:31am
Quote:
Originally posted by fgjh
a freind of mine got an email from his buddy that works in a certain place in cupertino. I am just merely passing it on...=]


"The following is surely going to drop this September. It was leaked about 5 weeks ago, so I can tell you without pain and discomfort in my ballz.
Listen jerk, remember......you heard this from a bird on a big tree. Don't ****ing quote me you bitch. :P

The New PowerMac's all with the PPC970 Chip.
2 Models confirmed. (Possibly three)

1) Panther OS X 10.3 (Free upgrade from Jaguar. OS 9.2 will be terminated.)
2) 1.6Ghz-1.9Ghz, with the new PPC970 processor(maybe duals)
3) PCI extreme (much faster than PCI and AGP 8X and backwards compatible with PCI)
4) 900Mhz system Busses.
5) Serial ATA, Firewire 800, USB 2, AirportExtreme, BlueTooth
6) Water Cooling, so there is no fan noise!! :P"

1) Does that mean it first will come with Jaguar and then later Panther?
2) That's a little more sane than Dual 2.3Ghz.
3) That'll impress (or piss off) a lot of the "l33t gamerz" and graphics workstation users.
4) Fine.
5) Sounds good.
6) <jamaican>Yah, no fookin way, mon!!</jamaican>

No PC manufacturer with an inkling of intelligence would make a PC that requires a water pump connected to it. Can you imagine the Tech Support nightmare that would entail!?

Unless they can build a self-contained-will-never-leak-cooling system, this is - not - going - to - happen!

Therefore your source is suspect in its entirety.

Screed
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post #244 of 345
4/14/03 at 8:12am
Quote:
Originally posted by sCreeD
6) <jamaican>Yah, no fookin way, mon!!</jamaican>

No PC manufacturer with an inkling of intelligence would make a PC that requires a water pump connected to it. Can you imagine the Tech Support nightmare that would entail!?

Unless they can build a self-contained-will-never-leak-cooling system, this is - not - going - to - happen!

Water cooling is not such an unreasonable idea. Water has a much higher specific heat capacity than air and it might be possible to design a system that doesn't require a pump (thus much more reliable). I suppose you might be able to hear a little bubbling, but it would be a lot more pleasing that fan noise. Sort of a relaxing babbling-brook kind of sound.
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post #245 of 345
4/14/03 at 8:20am
There are passive liquid cooling systems that use thermal pumps in other industries. Designed them myself for maintaining constant temperature baths.
I heard that geeks are a dime a dozen, I just want to find out who's been passin' out the dimes
----- Fred Blassie 1964
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I heard that geeks are a dime a dozen, I just want to find out who's been passin' out the dimes
----- Fred Blassie 1964
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post #246 of 345
4/14/03 at 9:36am
Quote:
Originally posted by Programmer
Water cooling is not such an unreasonable idea.

Maybe not. But there is no way Panther will be a free upgrade.

"Spec" is short for "specification" not "speculation".
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"Spec" is short for "specification" not "speculation".
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post #247 of 345
4/14/03 at 10:08am
Quote:
Originally posted by Tomb of the Unknown
Maybe not. But there is no way Panther will be a free upgrade.


I think it means free upgrade for purchasers of the 970 systems. That is a bit more believable.

Not that I necessarily believe the whole thing.
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post #248 of 345
4/14/03 at 10:23am
Isn't there already something like passive liquid cooling in the PowerBooks?

It makes sense that Apple would at least try it, since a significant portion of their user base wants an incredibly powerful and absolutely silent workstation. Fans are obviously not cutting it.

It's not an entirely unbelievable report, although it looks like someone's going to get hurt for quoting the source verbatim...
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post #249 of 345
4/14/03 at 11:03am
Quote:
I suppose you might be able to hear a little bubbling, but it would be a lot more pleasing that fan noise. Sort of a relaxing babbling-brook kind of sound.

great..then this computer better come with the rumored iCathater also as i will constantly have this urge to pee while sitting at the computer....

g



here is the protype
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post #250 of 345
4/14/03 at 11:53am
Quote:
Originally posted by Tomb of the Unknown
Maybe not. But there is no way Panther will be a free upgrade.


Why not? 10.1 was a free upgrade. When 10.2 came out there was some discussion of the odd upgrades being free.
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post #251 of 345
4/14/03 at 11:59am
I'll pony up sixty bucks for a student copy of Panther. Hell.. who wouldn't? Jaguar rocked for the money. If the 970ers get it free w/ purchase, smashing, if Jaguar buyers get $10 off, amazing, but even without any other promotion, Jaguar ($120) was only $60 for students and lets face it... you can afford $60 for a 'whole new mac'.

If we have the 'beta release' program like we did for X available at WWDC, I figure the finals release will correspond with the 970 (980/whateveryacallit) release. (which would seem to be fall to me... just before folks go back to school or just in time for spanksgiving and christmass.
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post #252 of 345
4/14/03 at 12:58pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Not Unlike Myself
I'll pony up sixty bucks for a student copy of Panther. Hell.. who wouldn't?

If Panther delivers a speed increase that is noticeable, then I'll by it. Otherwise I cant afford it since I'm a student.
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post #253 of 345
4/14/03 at 1:35pm
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post #254 of 345
4/14/03 at 3:02pm
Actually, after I went on a quick hunt through IBM's site, the only statement of the 970's bus speed that I can find is 900MHz.
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post #255 of 345
4/14/03 at 4:31pm
airsluf, maybe go do a search on your own for the bus speed? numerous sites got the bus @ 900
heres one

..i have no idea if this info is 100% true or 1% true. as i said i am just passing it on, i havent been on the forum for ages and forgot how much speculation goes on in here.
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post #256 of 345
4/14/03 at 5:23pm
Isn't the bus supposed to be 1/2 the processor speed? (1/4 DDR)
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post #257 of 345
4/14/03 at 6:03pm
i want a 970 BAAAAAAD!!!!

i hope the "leaked email" is true!
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post #258 of 345
4/14/03 at 6:15pm
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post #259 of 345
4/14/03 at 6:39pm
Actually, if memory serves, the IBM release that touted speeds up to 2.3GHz still mentioned a 900MHz bus.

The relative clock speed design makes sense, but now that I think about it, I can't remember if it came from any other source than these boards.

Anyone got a link?
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Becca Sutlive - Iowa Fried Rock 'n Roll - now on iTMS!
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"...within intervention's distance of the embassy." - CvB

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Becca Sutlive - Iowa Fried Rock 'n Roll - now on iTMS!
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post #260 of 345
4/14/03 at 8:47pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Amorph
Actually, if memory serves, the IBM release that touted speeds up to 2.3GHz still mentioned a 900MHz bus.

The relative clock speed design makes sense, but now that I think about it, I can't remember if it came from any other source than these boards.

Anyone got a link?

I think it was that article by David Wang, who was actually at the IBM conference in October.
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post #261 of 345
4/14/03 at 9:04pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Amorph
Isn't there already something like passive liquid cooling in the PowerBooks?

It makes sense that Apple would at least try it, since a significant portion of their user base wants an incredibly powerful and absolutely silent workstation. Fans are obviously not cutting it.

It's not an entirely unbelievable report, although it looks like someone's going to get hurt for quoting the source verbatim...


http://www.scienceblog.com/community...rder=0&thold=0
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post #262 of 345
4/14/03 at 9:15pm
Quote:
Originally posted by JBL
Why not? 10.1 was a free upgrade. When 10.2 came out there was some discussion of the odd upgrades being free.

It won't be. Sorry . If you don't believe me, wait and see.
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post #263 of 345
4/14/03 at 9:31pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Programmer
http://www.scienceblog.com/community...rder=0&thold=0

May I be the first to say it?

"Cool"

Ya know, if this isn't just another completely impractical weisenheimer brainstorm, but in fact, actually works - geez would that ever make Apple gosh darn, uh, cool ... the buzz factor alone would probably make people want to at least check the machines out.

Besides ...

I've got a bleedin' WinNT Vacuum cleaner next to my ear half the time - and worse, in the recording studio, there's nothing more annoying than wild ground hum or, when that incredible subtle detailed musical passage is about to happen (Imagine Arvo Part), and the 24bit 96K AD/DA illusion that you sold your kidney to hear is overwhelmed by the rising noise of cooling fans - like telling the girl of your dreams you make less money than she does ... it just breaks the spell.

Yes, Apple would do well to keep the dream alive with silent cooling!
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post #264 of 345
4/14/03 at 9:35pm
the water cooled bit seems reasonable since hitachi came out with thier p4 laptops that were water cooled last july 02
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post #265 of 345
4/14/03 at 10:21pm
The liquid (not necessary water) cooling system will work to transfer heat away from the processor(s) but fans will still be needed to expel the heated air from the case (plus there are other heat generators in the case other than the processor(s).)
I heard that geeks are a dime a dozen, I just want to find out who's been passin' out the dimes
----- Fred Blassie 1964
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I heard that geeks are a dime a dozen, I just want to find out who's been passin' out the dimes
----- Fred Blassie 1964
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post #266 of 345
4/14/03 at 11:04pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Programmer
http://www.scienceblog.com/community...rder=0&thold=0

Thank you, Programmer, for the excellent find. This, indeed, would be a cool cooling system.
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post #267 of 345
4/15/03 at 5:51am
Quote:
Originally posted by OverToasty
I've got a bleedin' WinNT Vacuum cleaner next to my ear half the time
...
Yes, Apple would do well to keep the dream alive with silent cooling!

I second the motion. Fans are probably the loudest and least robust form of heat dissipation available. I find it likely that someday, no computers will have cooling fans. Moving parts are fragile and require periodic replacement.

A far better solution, although currently more expensive, is to use convection cooling. Convection cooling using only air has been proven in everything from the Cars (old VWs) to the G4 cube. It is also possible to use radiant cooling with closed, liquid-based systems. These resemble your typical, finned, aluminum heatsinks but have internal passageways through which liquid is circulated. It is possible to design these such that no pump is needed, with coolant circulation caused by the liquid being less dense when heated.

If any company can make closed-system, liquid-convection-cooled computers a reality, it would be Apple.

How much money do people pay to make their cars quiet? Many people would pay a ton of money to lower the average noise level of their lives by 20db. I spend a lot of time around computers and live with constant white noise.

Damn this athlon box under my desk and its 6 fans! I feel like I'm at a bleepin airport.

[edit: quite != quiet]
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post #268 of 345
4/15/03 at 7:01am
The old VDubs had huge squirrel cage style fans on them...
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post #269 of 345
4/15/03 at 8:53am
Apple can't break the laws of physics. If we rule out connecting a computer to the household water supply and a drain, any liquid cooling system must interface with the air to get rid of the heat. The only thing that liquid cooling does for you then is move heat from one place to another, and lets the heat transfer to the air somewhere else. The best Apple could do is have the liquid move the heat to the entire surface of the Mac case, and let the case be the interface to air fir carrying away the heat. Such a scheme does not seem practical, however. It would have little pipes running all around.

Consider the heat flow a dual 970 produces, almost 90 Watts just from the CPUs. To transfer heat to air, an object must get very hot in still air, like an incandescent light bulb, or the air must be moving. The faster the air movement the cooler the device will be. In the case of a CPU, it cannot be allowed to get too hot, so convection cooling is out.

So, I think we are stuck with a fan somewhere. But fans can be made quiet. A large, slow moving fans make much less noise. Think of a ceiling fan. Do you hear them running?

Where liquid cooling could pay off is in the size, shape and location of the heat sink. With a large, efficient heat sink, the air flow can be slower to achieve the same heat transfer. Whether it is worth the extra effort and cost is another question.
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post #270 of 345
4/15/03 at 9:11am
Where do you get 90 watts for two 970 CPU's?
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post #271 of 345
4/15/03 at 9:17am
I think we will see thermoelectric (Peltier effect) based systems long before liquid-cooled systems. If you need to get lots of heat away from a small area pronto, there's nothing better. Their main drawback is efficiency - about 15% IIRC. So if you want to soak up 90 W off the processor, you'll have to dispel 600 W elsewhere. "Elsewhere", however, can be anyplace convenient, like a passive radiator at the back of the unit.

Purveyors of x86 hardware are way ahead of us in this area, for obvious reasons. Here's a link to some examples of TEC products:

http://www.cooltechnica.com/Merchant...egory_Code=TEC
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post #272 of 345
4/15/03 at 9:43am
There is a company called Cool Chips that has an thermal tunneling prototype. Supposedly, it is the most efficient cooling method.
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post #273 of 345
4/15/03 at 10:11am
Quote:
Originally posted by Bigc
Where do you get 90 watts for two 970 CPU's?

42W @ 1.8 GHz, 1.3v
19W @ 1.2 GHz, 1.1v

PPC970_MPF2002.pdf
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post #274 of 345
4/15/03 at 10:51am
Quote:
Originally posted by Amorph
Actually, if memory serves, the IBM release that touted speeds up to 2.3GHz still mentioned a 900MHz bus.

The relative clock speed design makes sense, but now that I think about it, I can't remember if it came from any other source than these boards.

Anyone got a link?

The basic heartbeat of the bus is 450MHz, with DDR signaling being used to make an effective 900MHz signaling rate.

3 * 450 MHz = 1350 MHz (~1.4GHz)
4 * 450 MHz = 1800 MHz (1.8GHz)
5 * 450 MHz = 2250 MHz (~2.3GHz)

so I would say that a simple multiplication of the 450MHz reference frequency is what drives the core clock rates that have been mentioned thus far.
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post #275 of 345
4/15/03 at 11:09am
Quote:
Originally posted by Bigc
Where do you get 90 watts for two 970 CPU's?


I said almost 90 Watts. I seem to remember they are 42 Watts each at 1.8 GHz. I guess I could have said "over 80 Watts."
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post #276 of 345
4/15/03 at 11:22am
Quote:
Originally posted by TJM
. . . Their main drawback is efficiency - about 15% IIRC. So if you want to soak up 90 W off the processor, you'll have to dispel 600 W elsewhere. "Elsewhere", however, can be anyplace convenient, like a passive radiator at the back of the unit. . .



If that 15 percent efficiency is correct, this is not the way to go. Who wants a 600 Watt space heater in their room, especially in Summer?
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post #277 of 345
4/15/03 at 5:52pm
Quote:
Originally posted by snoopy
If that 15 percent efficiency is correct, this is not the way to go. Who wants a 600 Watt space heater in their room, especially in Summer?

Amen to that. Peltier coolers are good for cooling down things that are well insulated and have a low heat load (x-ray detectors, infrared sensors and CCDs for example). They are not good heat pumps.

Some years ago I saw an engineering analysis showing that Peltier coolers for semiconductors was a bogus idea. You are better off just putting a heatsink and fan on the chip.
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post #278 of 345
4/15/03 at 7:07pm
Quote:
Originally posted by snoopy
If that 15 percent efficiency is correct, this is not the way to go. Who wants a 600 Watt space heater in their room, especially in Summer?

Actually the efficiency of a peltier is more like 55%. Here is a link talking about some peltier calculations for an OC'ed Celeron up to about 40W, coincidentally.

http://www.overclockers.com.au/techstuff/29oct99.shtml

If Apple used them (I don't think they would for other considerations) on a 970 they would be producing ~75W on the hot side. This still needs to be cooled, BTW.

MM
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post #279 of 345
4/15/03 at 9:37pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Bigc
The liquid (not necessary water) cooling system will work to transfer heat away from the processor(s) but fans will still be needed to expel the heated air from the case (plus there are other heat generators in the case other than the processor(s).)

Not necessarily. The problem with the heat from processors is that the heat sources are small and in a place determined by the circuit requirements, not by the cooling requirements. A water / liquid cooling system uses the medium to transport heat away from the processors to a heat exchanger that can be designed for optimal heat exchange. This means it can be larger / longer and positioned to take advantage of convective flow (is that a real word?!). Even if a fan is required it can have a much lower flow rate and thus be much quieter.
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post #280 of 345
4/15/03 at 11:10pm
I agree, a fan may be needed (depending on case designs ability for natural convective cooling) to disperse the heat from the case but I wouldn't expect that a large fan would be required such as that needed to directly remove the heat from the fin-area of the CPU heat sink. (i.e., much smaller fans would be needed)
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