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Two income trap - Is two better than one?

post #1 of 95
Thread Starter 
Two income trap-CNN

I have long been a proponant of working smarter and not harder. I definately think there is more to life than the rat race called working and that any couple should devote basically as few hours as they can working for others and instead work on their own family and their own investments.

I have long claimed that two incomes really isn't doubling your money. The increase in taxes, day care, expenses related to two professional wardrobes, extra eating out, more expensive family time since there is less of it, etc. dramatically reduce the true impact of that second income to the point of not really being worth it.

Well seems families are earning more than they ever did before in the past. In fact they earn about 75% more, but instead of living better, quite a few are worse off.

The main culprits, taxes, more income a bigger cut for the government. Day care which went from 0% to 14% of the budget. Housing by being bid up and also because the acceptable definition of what is a decent house has changed. (I've screamed about this dozens of times here)

Aside from gender issues, do you think a second income is worth it in this day and age? I've contended that if more people stayed home, those that are left working could demand a better wage because the labor market would be tighter, etc.

What do you think?

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #2 of 95
Two incomes is good, but I like the idea of neither working full time. If that's a possibility, then it's a good one. Aside from that, it's not really worth it unless you really want the five bedroom house and the fourth car.
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post #3 of 95
I disagree with some of her reasoning: two incomes caused some cost to rise. In my opinion, the cost of rising caused families to get two incomes.

10 years ago in Austin, TX you could by a house relatively cheap and stay in really cheap apartments. However, with the technology bubble and all the companies moving to Austin and paying their employees a crap load of money, housing jumped, which naturally, offset the benefits of having the extra income. That, in turn, would leave some families needing a second job.

She also assumes people are paying to send their kids to private schools rather than public schools. I see a lot of other reasoning problems in her article. What I would also like to see in the article is a comparison between single income families of thirty years ago vs. today. Are the chances of a job lost for single income families 2.5 times greater?

In short, there's lots of benefits to having a second income if you don't squander it on needless things, e.g. private schools, 5 bedroom houses, and another car. Also, this issue is far more complicated than just pinning the problems on a two income family.
post #4 of 95
My wife and I have been DINKS on and off for about 2 years now. (double income, no kids)

I noticed that we were spending so much in Gas, Food and clothing for her to go to work that it wasn't worth it. We'd both come home from work and be too lazy to cook, so we were eating out more.

I enjoyed my job so I wasn't miserable when I got home, but she was. She's a creative type. She likes to paint and write but finding a full time job doing this is very difficult. So she ended up getting jobs at banks and offices. I think when you're an artist that can be brutal to your self esteem. So it was making us both unhappy. So I told her to quit working full time.

Now she works on her paintings all day and just finished her first book! (She's looking for an agent).

We haven't saved tons of money, but our quality of life has improved. She's much happier doing her own thing and enjoys cooking dinner for us and taking care of the house.

Now if she could just manage to sell that book or some of her paintings......
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post #5 of 95
There are certainly other issues to consider in addition to income. A full time job often enhances the person's (either man or woman) self esteem, confidence and other psychological elements that contributes to a better family life. Additionally, a person who is pushed into a working environment is more adept at handling different circumstances than someone who is at home all the time. Taking time out to take care of the new arrival- child, is good and would be valuable but out of the working environment for too long dulls the social and societal senses and may end up creating gaps between the mates.
post #6 of 95
A satisfying job = good self esteem and then $.

Better two of you having a 2/3 or 1/2 time jobs than 1 having the job and other (the female) unvoluntarily forced to not work out (like some of you want, staying home, cooking and cleaning for husband and overpopulating the earth).

1 person: 1 rent, 1 electricity, 1 phone, 1 car, 1 x food, 1 x everything bills.

2 persons: 1 rent, still 1 electricity and 1 phone .. 2 x food. Other still 1x.

If you add anything else by your _CHOISE_ such as more cars, more than zero kids, mobile phones, double subscriptions to main sports events those things can be double, but the essentials apart from food, are still single. Unless you have 2 homes of course.

If you have a kid, it will cost you the same amount of money whether you raise him/her alone, or with your partner. If you seriously think that kids are too expensive, don't produce them.

Just another thread to justify why women are bad (stealing your work) and should be home just for you (cooking, cleaning etc).

If you calculate it that the MAN can be as well the one who stays home to take care of the household etc, you sure must add the lost income - as the women tend not to be paid as the men for the same job. In Europe the differences are far bigger; in Southern and Northern Europe it is normal that a woman is paid e.g. 60 % of what the man is paid, for the exact same work. The only place in Europe where I had a salary that was not better for the men in the same job was in UK, and I'm pretty sure most jobs even there have the gap. IF you have kids, having one parent home for them is fine, it's luxury, but it has to be that BOTH of you want it, and especially the one of you two who will stay home. It should not be based on the sex.
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post #7 of 95
There are some cases where two is not better than one. Some news magazine show did some analysis one some two income families. Turned out for one of them it was costing money to have both work. After mom stayed home dad starting picking up overtime and they did much better.



My wife and I are going to single income soon. Our only worry is that she'll be bored.
post #8 of 95
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
There are some cases where two is not better than one. Some news magazine show did some analysis one some two income families. Turned out for one of them it was costing money to have both work. After mom stayed home dad starting picking up overtime and they did much better.

My wife and I are going to single income soon. Our only worry is that she'll be bored.

Moving to single income by choice, or neccessity?
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post #9 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Giaguara
A satisfying job = good self esteem and then $.

Better two of you having a 2/3 or 1/2 time jobs than 1 having the job and other (the female) unvoluntarily forced to not work out (like some of you want, staying home, cooking and cleaning for husband and overpopulating the earth).

I'm fine with that. We could say one 40 hour week per family if you like. You are the one trying to make it a gender issue. I see it as a quality of life issue where people have been fooled into thinking they are getting more when they aren't in most cases. Since there is more competition for jobs, you get paid less. People take that extra "earnings" and suddenly decide to buy a bigger home, or bid up the price on the same home. No one has said that women have to stay home cooking and cleaning.

Quote:
1 person: 1 rent, 1 electricity, 1 phone, 1 car, 1 x food, 1 x everything bills.

2 persons: 1 rent, still 1 electricity and 1 phone .. 2 x food. Other still 1x.

If you add anything else by your _CHOISE_ such as more cars, more than zero kids, mobile phones, double subscriptions to main sports events those things can be double, but the essentials apart from food, are still single. Unless you have 2 homes of course.

Some costs do stay the same. However some rise due to the extra money. Say that landlord give you a rental increase. If you have one income and cannot afford it, you tell him you must move. If you have two incomes you might stay and just pay the increase. However then what happens when another one income family tries to afford that building? They can't.

So now the lost income is gone from having two incomes. The wealth from it is still concentrated at the top. (Landlord) You now "need" two incomes to get the same apartment.

Do you think the landlord could have had an empty building if all the single income families could not have afforded the more expensive rent? The thing that allowed that wealth transfer was the second income. If no one had been willing or able to pay it, it wouldn't have happened.

Then there is just the need for more housing space. The average size of a house has gone up dramatically in the United States. People are now using two incomes to buy what I call "McMansions" which are mass produced, huge, tract housing. This housing makes the older housing, still really fantastic housing that is typically a three bedroom of around 1000-1250 sq.ft. look like poverty housing.

As a result the couples will spend even more of their income, especially that second income to get "good" housing. However the definition of "good" housing has changed.

Quote:
Just another thread to justify why women are bad (stealing your work) and should be home just for you (cooking, cleaning etc).

Wrong, try a quality of life issue. Likewise it might even be a U.S. specific issue since we consent to the longest number of working hours in the modern world. Is an employer getting the benefit of getting two people to work for him for not much more than the cost of one employee oppression of women by men or oppression of the poor by the rich?

In France they passed a 32-35 hour work week. Was this seem as a measure to "keep women at home in the kitchen?"

Quote:
If you calculate it that the MAN can be as well the one who stays home to take care of the household etc, you sure must add the lost income - as the women tend not to be paid as the men for the same job. In Europe the differences are far bigger; in Southern and Northern Europe it is normal that a woman is paid e.g. 60 % of what the man is paid, for the exact same work. The only place in Europe where I had a salary that was not better for the men in the same job was in UK, and I'm pretty sure most jobs even there have the gap. IF you have kids, having one parent home for them is fine, it's luxury, but it has to be that BOTH of you want it, and especially the one of you two who will stay home. It should not be based on the sex.

I haven't said it should be based on sex/gender. Likewise I contend it really isn't a luxury if people kept their expectations after seeing the money from that second income the same. But they don't. Soon the cars are bought more frequently. A 1250 sq ft house is declared small and dingy. The two folks who are working all the time suddenly need a home landline phone and two cell phone plans to be able to communicate, etc.

I'm just saying that a little thinking differently can lead to a better quality of life. It doesn't have to be a sexism issue either. If half of all couples quit working, the labor shortage would likely make it impossible to pay women unequal wages as well.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #10 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
There are some cases where two is not better than one. Some news magazine show did some analysis one some two income families. Turned out for one of them it was costing money to have both work. After mom stayed home dad starting picking up overtime and they did much better.



My wife and I are going to single income soon. Our only worry is that she'll be bored.

If it is because of children, I assure you she won't be. If anything she be crouched at the door ready to pounce and leave for some relief the second you walk in.

My wife's day is often a little to interesting for our tastes. our children are so physically and mentally active that we have thought of investing in some lead paint chips (joke) to slow them down.

For example yesterday we spent about 20 minutes locating our almost two year old who had escaped yet again. (There seems to be no combination of locks and fences that can keep him in the yard and out of traffic that we worry about.

We located him in our boat. He had find a way to scale about 5 feet worth of trailer/boat to get inside, but he did.

Multiple this by about 100 times a week, and the last word you will ever use is boring.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #11 of 95
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Then there is just the need for more housing space. The average size of a house has gone up dramatically in the United States. People are now using two incomes to buy what I call "McMansions" which are mass produced, huge, tract housing. This housing makes the older housing, still really fantastic housing that is typically a three bedroom of around 1000-1250 sq.ft. look like poverty housing.

As a result the couples will spend even more of their income, especially that second income to get "good" housing. However the definition of "good" housing has changed.

[...] Likewise it might even be a U.S. specific issue since we consent to the longest number of working hours in the modern world. Is an employer getting the benefit of getting two people to work for him for not much more than the cost of one employee oppression of women by men or oppression of the poor by the rich?

In France they passed a 32-35 hour work week. Was this seem as a measure to "keep women at home in the kitchen?"

[...] If half of all couples quit working, the labor shortage would likely make it impossible to pay women unequal wages as well.

1. The housing sizes (meal sizes, car sizes, nearly everything) has gone up. To have a big house you need it filled with a lot of cr.. decoration, furniture etc. It is a CHOISE to "NEED" big housing.

In Cairo an average 7 people live in an 11 square meter apartment.
And they spend a lot more of their income to housing than what hte Americans do.


2. US is not the place with necessarily longest working hours. I wanted to do a few 28 hour shifts in UK. I did several 6 pm to 8 am shifts. And in holidays worked 7 days a week when I could. I can't imagine doing it here. (70 hours a week).

Most employers I've seen have preferred having one TIRED employee for 40-50 hours a week than having two, less tired employees doing hte same total amount of time, half day or different days. I see no reason for that preference, as if you in too short a time burn out you are forced to have a break and look for another place.


3. If half of all couples quit working, the double of Mexican couples work.
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post #12 of 95
I've been hearing about this book - they did an interview with the authors on NPR this morning.

I've got a pretty nice situation I think. I have very flexible hours, and my wife works half time. So we have been able to avoid day care by switching off.

Staying at home with kids certainly isn't easy - as about a 1/3-time stay-at-home dad I know. The problem is that while it is work, so much of it is mind-numbing, ego-crushing, brainless work. I'm sure to some people it's very fulfilling and nurturing and all that, but I know my wife would go crazy if she stayed at home with our kids, and I suspect that's true of a lot more women than is generally acknowledged.

I suppose it was easier when women just never expected to be professionals. But today girls are educated the same way boys are educated. My wife and I are equal professionals in our fields, so I think it's tough to just stay home for 10 years (we have two kids, 4 years apart) after all that education and those expectations of a professional life.





I'm surprised that the mortgage and the cars are the same as they were 30 years ago. It sure seems like everyone drives more expensive cars and has more of them than in the past. I wonder if this is distorted because people stretch the payments out over a longer period of time, but this chart is only annual. I've heard that people have a lot more debt than they used to. Also, I thought one of the points of their book was that people spend a lot more on their homes than they used to, partially in order to get their kids in good schools.

It's also interesting that taxes are higher - I suppose that's a combination of the marriage penalty and just having more earnings.
post #13 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell


I'm surprised that the mortgage and the cars are the same as they were 30 years ago. It sure seems like everyone drives more expensive cars and has more of them than in the past. I wonder if this is distorted because people stretch the payments out over a longer period of time, but this chart is only annual. I've heard that people have a lot more debt than they used to. Also, I thought one of the points of their book was that people spend a lot more on their homes than they used to, partially in order to get their kids in good schools.

It's also interesting that taxes are higher - I suppose that's a combination of the marriage penalty and just having more earnings.

I think what they are showing is that it is the same percent of the 75% larger income. You would expect that with two people working, the percentage of income that would go to pay for their house would have gone down. Instead it has remained the same and they have opted for a larger house or bid up the same house they would have had. Thus they now "need" two incomes to afford that house.

I think the issue is the same with the cars as well. They are spending the same percentage, but of a larger income. Obviously both of those yearly numbers, 1973 and today, are inflation adjusted. I think you are right about the more expensive cars/longer payments issue. I know when I was in high school, any car that had gone 100k miles had really had it. My wife's Honda has had 140k miles put on it and the only repair it has ever had is we had the timing belt replace because a Honda affectionado told us they stretch and cause serious damage. We did that at 100k miles and that has been it.

The saddest thing of all about that chart is that you take the mortgage and the cars and add them together and it doesn't equal the taxes paid... and we still have deficit spending and plenty of people are still calling for more taxes and spending... amazing.

It's also amazing to me that there are people out there spending as much on daycare as on a home. I wonder how they got that number.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #14 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Giaguara
1. The housing sizes (meal sizes, car sizes, nearly everything) has gone up. To have a big house you need it filled with a lot of cr.. decoration, furniture etc. It is a CHOISE to "NEED" big housing.

In Cairo an average 7 people live in an 11 square meter apartment.
And they spend a lot more of their income to housing than what hte Americans do.


2. US is not the place with necessarily longest working hours. I wanted to do a few 28 hour shifts in UK. I did several 6 pm to 8 am shifts. And in holidays worked 7 days a week when I could. I can't imagine doing it here. (70 hours a week).

Most employers I've seen have preferred having one TIRED employee for 40-50 hours a week than having two, less tired employees doing hte same total amount of time, half day or different days. I see no reason for that preference, as if you in too short a time burn out you are forced to have a break and look for another place.


3. If half of all couples quit working, the double of Mexican couples work.

1. I know it is a choice to need big houses. I am glad you point that out because I say this to people who tell me they NEED to have both people work to get by. When I ask them about housing I often discover they NEED a 2300 sq ft track home to get by. However that is a want, not a need.

And yes they do fill them with crap .....

2. From the reports I have read, if you look at annual hours worked, the U.S. leads. I'm not saying it is a good thing. As for the 70 hour work weeks. I'm sure a few people here will volunteer that it is entirely possible to do in the U.S. However I have to ask... why work so hard? Was there some big goal associated with all this work?

3. Your comment is racist, ignorant and wrong. In the U.S. the Mexican/Hispanic women stay home much more often than any other group of women. They do so in such large numbers that for the first time in recent memory the number of stay at home mom's has gone up.

There are plenty of Hispanics that have the view that the U.S. was born "running" and that you should work for what you need and not just to generate wealth for excess consumption.

Nick

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post #15 of 95
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
3. Your comment is racist, ignorant and wrong. In the U.S. the Mexican/Hispanic women stay home much more often than any other group of women. They do so in such large numbers that for the first time in recent memory the number of stay at home mom's has gone up.

There are plenty of Hispanics that have the view that the U.S. was born "running" and that you should work for what you need and not just to generate wealth for excess consumption.

Nick

For someone who spends a great deal of time pointing out unfounded accusations of racism, sexism, and other "isms," you are quick to play the "race card" yourself.

I believe the word I'm looking for is hypocrite.

Giaguara's example was probably meant to illustrate the fact that if workers stayed at home, other people would inevitably take their jobs. Mexicans in particular would have more jobs from which to choose.
post #16 of 95
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Giaguara's example was probably meant to illustrate the fact that if workers stayed at home, other people would inevitably take their jobs. Mexicans in particular would have more jobs from which to choose.

That is exactly what I ment.

If the British decide to try your technique, trumptman, that is WORKING LESS, it's not making the overall work situation for the Brits any better. If a Briton does not want to work, it's the emigrant who does. African, East European, whatever. (Never worked with Mexicans in UK)

If a Briton does not want to work and I do, they choose me or some other emigrant, they have no choise. It is not going to change anything else. If someone works fot the same price or less, they are not going to come to beg you to work for less hours and offering you more money. Someone gets the work anyway. And it is probably one who needs cash more desperately than you, and an emigrant is a good example of that category. Mexican, Polish, whatever is the dominant in your zone. Besides, I did not exclude myself in the example either. If you choose not to work, I will.
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post #17 of 95
This is another issue I disgaree with you on, trumptman...to an extent.

My wife and I MUST have two incomes to live in this area. We're teachers, and now thatt we have our first child, she's working part time. We also have an inexpensive day care option...thank God (right now...about $200 a month).

It is often the cost of living that mandates two incomes. Any decent home that would meet our needs was upwards of $180K in this area. Most were WAY above that. In fact, we lucked out so to speak...we spent less on our new construction 4 bedroom home than we would have spent on a two or three bedroom rancher...(we commute longer to work as a result).

We also only have one car payment. We have minimal unsecured debt. And with all this, we could not afford to live on my $40,000 salary. No way. It's even going to be tight now that my wife is making half what she did.

I agree that sometimes two incomes might not be worth it if one partner makes enough to live on (for example, if I made 60K instead of 40K my wife would stay home for at leat a few years). But, for most people, two incomes is required.
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post #18 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
For someone who spends a great deal of time pointing out unfounded accusations of racism, sexism, and other "isms," you are quick to play the "race card" yourself.

I believe the word I'm looking for is hypocrite.

Giaguara's example was probably meant to illustrate the fact that if workers stayed at home, other people would inevitably take their jobs. Mexicans in particular would have more jobs from which to choose.

I'm not playing the race card. My information is based on actual data generated in part by the last census.

Her claim wasn't that a Mexican would take the job but that Mexican COUPLES would take the job. You and she can try to spin it in any manner you like, but the point is that she was just making an assumption, based on race that was absolutely dead wrong.

Now does that mean that the children of these Mexican couples might not desire the same number of children, might be more inclined to have two people within the family work, etc. I don't doubt that they will likely adopt some of these attitudes. However in the meantime her conclusion is 100% wrong.

As for your name calling, it's all you have left. You know if anyone you disagreed with made a 100% false claim about a specific ethnic group based off the fact that they are immigrants you would call it racism. All you show is that your political agenda is above all everything which means you will convince on pretty much nothing.

Nick

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post #19 of 95
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
However in the meantime her conclusion is 100% wrong.

So if Americans give up work, it's wrong to assume that other races will fill in the jobs? No Nick, I think you're wrong. You're trying to latch on to a miscommunication/understanding rather than argue a valid point.
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post #20 of 95
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
I'm not playing the race card. My information is based on actual data generated in part by the last census.

Her claim wasn't that a Mexican would take the job but that Mexican COUPLES would take the job. You and she can try to spin it in any manner you like, but the point is that she was just making an assumption, based on race that was absolutely dead wrong.

Now does that mean that the children of these Mexican couples might not desire the same number of children, might be more inclined to have two people within the family work, etc. I don't doubt that they will likely adopt some of these attitudes. However in the meantime her conclusion is 100% wrong.

As for your name calling, it's all you have left. You know if anyone you disagreed with made a 100% false claim about a specific ethnic group based off the fact that they are immigrants you would call it racism. All you show is that your political agenda is above all everything which means you will convince on pretty much nothing.

Nick

EXPLAIN HOW GIAGUARA'S COMMENTS WERE RACIST.

Immigrants, including Mexican-Americans, will take over jobs abdicated en masse by other workers. It's inevitable. Why do you think they frequently work the most dangerous, physically demanding jobs?

I'm dead set on exposing you for the hypocritical, dishonest, dirty debater you are. You have a big mountain to climb to prove this one.
post #21 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
This is another issue I disgaree with you on, trumptman...to an extent.

My wife and I MUST have two incomes to live in this area. We're teachers, and now thatt we have our first child, she's working part time. We also have an inexpensive day care option...thank God (right now...about $200 a month).

It is often the cost of living that mandates two incomes. Any decent home that would meet our needs was upwards of $180K in this area. Most were WAY above that. In fact, we lucked out so to speak...we spent less on our new construction 4 bedroom home than we would have spent on a two or three bedroom rancher...(we commute longer to work as a result).

We also only have one car payment. We have minimal unsecured debt. And with all this, we could not afford to live on my $40,000 salary. No way. It's even going to be tight now that my wife is making half what she did.

I agree that sometimes two incomes might not be worth it if one partner makes enough to live on (for example, if I made 60K instead of 40K my wife would stay home for at leat a few years). But, for most people, two incomes is required.

SDW, there are plenty of folks who live on half of what your family makes. As usual your presumptions lead to your own conclusions. You speak of an "area" as if you had a right to live there or that living outside that area would = death or something of that nature. That just isn't true. I have no doubt that the "needs" expressed in your homebuying go well above a true "need" and into the "want" category.

My wife and I had to move from the beach in order to avoid bad neighborhoods every couple miles and housing prices that would have us running to stand still. As a teacher you have much more flexibility than most because there happen to be schools and kids just about everywhere.

What is even funnier is you are one of the chief preachers around here of how people have to work for taxes, not themselves. How much lower do you think your tax burden will be at $40k vs. $80k? You would likely fall from the 28% to the 15% bracket. With the right deductions I doubt you would even owe taxes on that $40k.

We all basically live in comfort zones and make adjustments to those zones when we have to do so. People might have to rent instead of own. They might have to live in an apartment or condo instead of a home with a lot. They might have to own a used car instead of new. They might use the library instead of Amazon, etc.

You have 3(one of them an infant) people living in a 4 bedroom house and you call that a "need."

I'm not telling you to sell your house or even that you don't deserve it. I'm just saying don't dare call it a need when your family wouldn't have filled a two bedroom apartment a couple months ago.

My first house when we moved away from the beach is a 4 bedroom 3 bath house with a pool and spa. My current house that I live in is 4 bedroom 2.5 bath with a large lot. I'm not claiming it only meets a need though. There is about a thousand sq ft of "want" in the house, and about 4000 sq ft in the lot. We can and have gotten by with less before and could again if we needed to do so. My condo in Long Beach was 2 bedroom, 2 bath, 800 sq ft and could still have met the needs of my family today.

So we have more, but I honestly declare the more a want and not a need. I didn't "need" to move from Long Beach, I wanted a bigger house, etc.

Nick

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post #22 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
EXPLAIN HOW GIAGUARA'S COMMENTS WERE RACIST.

Immigrants, including Mexican-Americans, will take over jobs abdicated en masse by other workers. It's inevitable. Why do you think they frequently work the most dangerous, physically demanding jobs?

I'm dead set on exposing you for the hypocritical, dishonest, dirty debater you are. You have a big mountain to climb to prove this one.

I already did explain it, learn to read.

Quote:
Her claim wasn't that a Mexican would take the job but that Mexican COUPLES would take the job. You and she can try to spin it in any manner you like, but the point is that she was just making an assumption, based on race that was absolutely dead wrong.

Here is the definition of prejudice...

An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.

Here is the definition of racism

Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

She made her judgement with no facts. She assumed they would do it because they were Mexican.

Racism to me, regardless of what you want to repeat, namecall, spin, or whatever. Prejudice does not have to start with bad intent, it starts with ignorance and that is exactly what she displayed.

So expose away. You can't because what I said is true. I CHALLENGE you to find a link that shows that the trend of stay at home mothers hasn't been growing, especially due to Hispanic influence.

And again with the names, I suppose the list has to get longer because god-forbid you have to repeat yourself instead of say, refuting what I claim with things like links, facts, evidence, etc.

Mexicans do take over certain industries and so do other ethnic groups. However if I claimed that say Jewish immigrants would go work in vegetable fields you would likely laugh out loud at that claim. However Jewish immigrants have a history of going into skilled trades.

A lot of Koreans/Indians own convenience stores. A lot of Chinese immigrants open restaurants. I don't consider those the most physically demanding jobs do you?

As usual your claims are 100% bullshit. There are some Mexican immigrants that do physical labor. This is true of all groups. The fact that certain groups get into a vocational niche, consider it a strong area and then have a whole lot of their peers follow is like saying the Earth goes around the sun. It is true of all groups, not just Mexicans nor just immigrants. Gee women go into teaching and nursing disportionately. Seems like a whole lot of white men went into computers and are now pissed their jobs are going to SKILLED workers in India.

See Shawn you bias is that you assume all immigrants poorly educated, unskilled, and likely only capable of manual labor.

However immigrants are capable of taking over all sorts of fields in mass, not just unskilled ones. There are so many Filipino nurses your head would spin, but I suppose they have to be digging a hole or working in a field to be an "immigrant" to you.

Here are some of these.... I like to call them links..perhaps you can start using them too.

Hispanic Cultural Influence-More Moms staying home

More kids have a stay at home mom

She said COUPLES claiming that if other moms decided to stay home with their children, the Mexican (her words) moms would dump the kids and go to work in their place.

However they have a different set of priorities than us.

Of course if "I" assumed my set of priorities were better than "Mexican" priorities or even that the should adopt mine because mine are better, it would be seen as racism.

That's exactly what it is in her case. Spin, spin, spin away and of course call names too because that is all you can do.

Every year they measure the gains in productivity. Eventually there is just less work to do. Farms don't as much labor today as they did 100 years ago. I can't think of any industry that does require more labor now than it did in the past once growth has been factored in.

That is why France passed the 35 hour work week. Eventually there will just be fewer jobs. It was passed by Socialists, it is considered... PROGRESSIVE to work fewer hours and still get the same amount of pay.

Even if a different ethnic group would take the job, all it means is that they are willing to be EXPLOITED and why the hell would you accept or encourage that?

Nick

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post #23 of 95
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
SDW, there are plenty of folks who live on half of what your family makes

[..] My wife and I had to move from the beach in order to avoid bad neighborhoods every couple miles and housing prices that would have us running to stand still.

[...] People might have to rent instead of own. They might have to live in an apartment or condo instead of a home with a lot. They might have to own a used car instead of new. They might use the library instead of Amazon, etc.

[...] My first house when we moved away from the beach is a 4 bedroom 3 bath house with a pool and spa. [...]

There sure are plenty of people who make less than half or just a really small part of what your family makes as money.

Most of the small income people / families can not move from a bad neighborhood to a good one. When you don't have MONEY you can't decide that Skokie is nicer than South of Pilsen. Or that Notarbartolo is more cool than the worst parts of the old city.

Many people rent because they can not think about owning their own. If your income is 300 $, your spouse's 500 $ and rent takes 300, food 300, tell me how you can buy a house? Those numbers are possible, medium incomes of a 25-35 y old couple in Southern Italy. Both with degree, and 1-5 y work experience, on a field their degree suggests. If you are female, you won't get over 300. If you want to live alone, you can barely have a shared bedroom with someone else, water in the best case even every day, and be able even to eat with what you earn. If you have no phone, and buy no clothes, and live with only your salary, not eating the average of 2,000 + cals a day, you may with 6 - 12 months savings get yourself a used mac. If your parents are nobody, you are nobody and not involved in any illegal method of earning money, or in anything organized by criminal organizations, you will not get more. There are places (countryside) where you get less. And in many parts of Mexico, eastern Europe, Africa, any poorer zone or poorer country it is the same.

If you can not have a place of your own, even rented, while you try to live legally, before you are 35 or 40 there is somehting wrong. People go, they go to places where they can LIVE and not SURVIVE. You go to UK to was dishes or working in a warehouse, brcause you get more money, easier and you can LIVE. And live even if you have only the minimum legal income.

When you know what you had, and what are your real possibilities living where you chose not to live anymore, you get what you can and adapt to the possibilities.

When your graduated income is not enough to make you have a studio apartment rent AND pay for food, or phone, or computers, or to buy clothes or to go anywhere, you just DON'T talk about buying a 4 or 5 bedroom house anywhere. You don't talk, you have no voice, you just go or disappear. And when you start your life somewhere else, you are just happy that there is someone who does not need the work you want as much as you do.
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post #24 of 95
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
She said COUPLES claiming that if other moms decided to stay home with their children, the Mexican (her words) moms would dump the kids and go to work in their place.

She did NOT say that Mexican women would dump their kids and go work. This is your own bias distorting what you read.
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post #25 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
She did NOT say that Mexican women would dump their kids and go work. This is your own bias distorting what you read.

Care to explain how Mexican women would be able to go to work when every other group has had to begin disportionately using day care?

My "bias" is reality for every other ethnic group. You can explain how it would be different for what she claimed.

Good luck,

Nick

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post #26 of 95
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Care to explain how Mexican women would be able to go to work when every other group has had to begin disportionately using day care?

My "bias" is reality for every other ethnic group. You can explain how it would be different for what she claimed.

Good luck,

Nick

She doesn't mention Mexican women.

The Men could stay home. More couples could come from over the borders allowing new couples to find work for one spouse while the other stays home.

Wow, that was easy. Thanks for the luck but I don't think I needed it.
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post #27 of 95
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
bullshit...snip...bullshit...snip

Nick


SHE DID NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT MEXICAN WOMEN.

Her claim was that if a large number of workers quit, you can be sure that a large number of immigrants will fill those jobs.

That's not racist.
post #28 of 95
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
A lot of Koreans/Indians own convenience stores. A lot of Chinese immigrants open restaurants. I don't consider those the most physically demanding jobs do you?

[...] As usual your claims are 100% bullshit. There are some Mexican immigrants that do physical labor. This is true of all groups. The fact that certain groups get into a vocational niche, consider it a strong area and then have a whole lot of their peers follow is like saying the Earth goes around the sun. It is true of all groups, not just Mexicans nor just immigrants. Gee women go into teaching and nursing disportionately. Seems like a whole lot of white men went into computers and are now pissed their jobs are going to SKILLED workers in India.

See Shawn you bias is that you assume all immigrants poorly educated, unskilled, and likely only capable of manual labor.

However immigrants are capable of taking over all sorts of fields in mass, not just unskilled ones.

[...]

However they have a different set of priorities than us.

[..] That is why France passed the 35 hour work week.

Don't estimate what is hard work and what is not. You haven't ever worked in a restaurant, have you? You haven't worked in a convenience store 70 hours a week, have you?

There are a lot of educated emigrants. True. Even most of the Africans I've known in Northern Europe are educated. Doctors, engineers, at least nurses, advocates .. do they get a job they could because of their degree? My cousin worked part time in a cleaning company in Northern Europe. She was doing part time university, and is 20 something. She is the boss of her team, but she is the less educated there. The other workers are emigrants. Doctors, lawyers, engineers .. cleaning. Because the people don't like their skin or hair color. Still, even cleaning you make more than you could have made home in [...] whereever. You can be with an Oxford or Yale degree, but if the local people are racists enough, or you don't speak their language, the best you can get is cleaning, warehouses etc.

Hispanics can have different PRIORITIES than the WASP but they may have more NEED to have two incomes that often together are not nearly as big as your one. The NEED tends to go over PRIORITY.

I don't personally care what France or UK working hours per week are. If I go to UK to work, I work for a short period of time as much as I can. That is simply more money. If the hours allowed are 35 / week, I sure make more extra doing 70.

Nick, I wish you would live one year of your life in a poor country.
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post #29 of 95
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Care to explain how Mexican women would be able to go to work when every other group has had to begin disportionately using day care?

My "bias" is reality for every other ethnic group. You can explain how it would be different for what she claimed.

The NEED goes over the PRIORITY. I may _prefer_ to do do something, but if I have no choise, I have to do what I NEED to do.

If I had kids and PREFERRED to stay home with them, if there was not enough money I still would NEED to work.

Kids are no necessity. When you don't have money to raise them, Nick, you don't have them. And when you calculate how much the kids cost you, you should not have them either.

A hispanic and Latin family is often composed of parents, kids, grandparents, uncles etc etc. If both parents are in work, the grandparents can do something useful and watch the kids. That was the traditional way. Blacks tend to have parents and kids only families, like most whites. Thus they ned day care, and care for their elderly too.
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post #30 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Giaguara
Don't estimate what is hard work and what is not. You haven't ever worked in a restaurant, have you? You haven't worked in a convenience store 70 hours a week, have you?

There are a lot of educated emigrants. True. Even most of the Africans I've known in Northern Europe are educated. Doctors, engineers, at least nurses, advocates .. do they get a job they could because of their degree? My cousin worked part time in a cleaning company in Northern Europe. She was doing part time university, and is 20 something. She is the boss of her team, but she is the less educated there. The other workers are emigrants. Doctors, lawyers, engineers .. cleaning. Because the people don't like their skin or hair color. Still, even cleaning you make more than you could have made home in [...] whereever. You can be with an Oxford or Yale degree, but if the local people are racists enough, or you don't speak their language, the best you can get is cleaning, warehouses etc.

Hispanics can have different PRIORITIES than the WASP but they may have more NEED to have two incomes that often together are not nearly as big as your one. The NEED tends to go over PRIORITY.

I don't personally care what France or UK working hours per week are. If I go to UK to work, I work for a short period of time as much as I can. That is simply more money. If the hours allowed are 35 / week, I sure make more extra doing 70.

Nick, I wish you would live one year of your life in a poor country.

Gia, I wish you would stop making assumptions about people based off their race.

I assure you I have worked 70 hour weeks. I have even worked full time while attending university full time. I've worked services sector jobs like restaurants. I've worked as direct care staff for disabled adults. (Want to clean up 5 lbs of poop and lift 180 lbs boys/men?) I've been a dishwasher, bused tables, stocked store shelves, busted out ceramic tile and installed cabinets in the winter homes of the rich in Palm Springs (During the summer), cleaned up dirt and grease at auto/truck garages, etc.

I've done whatever it takes to get by just like anyone else.

I've also worked with people who have not had their degrees recognized in the United States. When I was a gas station cashier (bad part of town, and hey I do believe those have "convenience stores" in them which I did stock as well) the mechanic was from Iran and had an engineering degree. His degree was not recognized here and so he was working as a mechanic.

The issue could be racism in some places, but I don't believe that the case here. It is language and having the degree evaluated. If I were to leave California and attempt to teach in another state, my degree and my credential would be evaluated to see if I could teach there. If it were found lacking, I wouldn't be allowed and I am a white male. Likewise when I was dating a Filipino woman she was a nurse and was working privately for a family while attempting to pass the test verifying her degree from the Philipines.

Are you honestly telling me that if I went to Italy, for example that they would recognize my degree with no processing, and I could get a job earning what I earn here, even while speaking no Italian?

Would that be racism if they didn't even while I happen to be majority Italian in my ancestry?

The Hispanics may have more a necessity for two incomes, but the point is they disproportionately find a way to stay home because of their priorities. In otherwords they find a way to meet their needs and still stay home. Meanwhile you have WASP's declaring they NEED two incomes even when they have incomes that are above the national average with one income. The point is that they have declared their WANTS to be NEEDS. They NEED that 4 bedroom, $200k+ home. They NEED two new cars in the driveway. They NEED a vacation on a cruise ship or abroad.

They don't NEED these things. Likewise the sacrifices to get them can show priorities that are out of whack when we see that out of all the adults and people their children interact with, their own parents are often last on the list.

Tell me what conditions you have lived in that you consider poverty Gia. When I was in college, I rented out a poorly enclosed porch as a room from a woman so I could afford to go to school. It didn't even have a heat source, or kitchen. I did have access to the bathroom though. Of course at least that one was rented alone. We can also go into accomodations I "shared" or when I was homeless for about 2 months and lived in my Subaru Brat with camper shell.

I think you assume entirely to much about a person based off their skin color.

Nick

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post #31 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
She doesn't mention Mexican women.

The Men could stay home. More couples could come from over the borders allowing new couples to find work for one spouse while the other stays home.

Wow, that was easy. Thanks for the luck but I don't think I needed it.

Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
SHE DID NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT MEXICAN WOMEN.

Her claim was that if a large number of workers quit, you can be sure that a large number of immigrants will fill those jobs.

That's not racist.

You can both try your lawyer-ese as much as you want. It is just more spin and of course no links, no support, no nothing.

The men already work in these "couples." Gia claimed and has repeatedly claimed that attempts to keep someone home is attempting to keep women home.


Quote:
Just another thread to justify why women are bad (stealing your work) and should be home just for you (cooking, cleaning etc).

In the context of the thread it is obviously which member of the "couple" to whom she thinks this relates.

Try again.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #32 of 95
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Gia, I wish you would stop making assumptions about people based off their race.
...

I think you assume entirely to much about a person based off their skin color.

And you haven't supported this claim in the least. You're attacking someone when their point is valid, but you're attacking them personally (albeit backhandedly) without supporting your point.

She hasn't mentioned skin color at all, you are.
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post #33 of 95
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Are you honestly telling me that if I went to Italy, for example that they would recognize my degree with no processing, and I could get a job earning what I earn here, even while speaking no Italian?

Would that be racism if they didn't even while I happen to be majority Italian in my ancestry?

The Hispanics may have more a necessity for two incomes, but the point is they disproportionately find a way to stay home because of their priorities. In otherwords they find a way to meet their needs and still stay home. Meanwhile you have WASP's declaring they NEED two incomes even when they have incomes that are above the national average with one income. The point is that they have declared their WANTS to be NEEDS. They NEED that 4 bedroom, $200k+ home. They NEED two new cars in the driveway. They NEED a vacation on a cruise ship or abroad.

They don't NEED these things. Likewise the sacrifices to get them can show priorities that are out of whack when we see that out of all the adults and people their children interact with, their own parents are often last on the list.

Tell me what conditions you have lived in that you consider poverty Gia. When I was in college, I rented out a poorly enclosed porch as a room from a woman so I could afford to go to school. It didn't even have a heat source, or kitchen. I did have access to the bathroom though. Of course at least that one was rented alone. We can also go into accomodations I "shared" or when I was homeless for about 2 months and lived in my Subaru Brat with camper shell.

I think you assume entirely to much about a person based off their skin color.

Happy to see you have lived and actually worked on also other than your teacher job, nick.

You would absolutely not get a job in Italy with your degree, earning what you earn here. Even if your degree was Italian, you were Italian and you knew the right persons. If you are a university director of department, your income (male) is about 2,500 $ / mo. Minus taxes.
It is far more viable one with a degree from any Italian university chooses to go anywhere elsewhere to live (vs. survive).

But you are not Italian, you don't speak Italian .. wait for a few years for processing your degree, do more exams, pay for 30 different offices for doing more paper to process you, apply for 60 different licences and licences to stay and to work. And you may end up either teaching English or working for any American company. Anyone having an accent is looked down .. in most cases. In most places. Wait, you would not pass those tests as you don't speak Italian.

What I ment with the previous post example of not mastering the language correctly was to useless languages such as Finnish or Norwegian. If they don't want you and even when 95 % of the population speaks good english, you can always be refused as your that language is not perfect. You could spend there the next 20 years of my life and still be not perfect.

Yes, wants are declared as needs. Too often. And refusing many "needs" one looks ascetic. I don't need 3 cars, 4 rooms, dishwashers, electrical tin openers, matching luggage ..

I don't consider myself having lived really in poverty. I worked one summer in Slovakia, and my salary was 125 $ a month. That was an average pay in 1997 there. I shared one room with a Finnish married guy (I have forgotten his name), an Italian and Croatian guy, a Greek girl and so on. 4 bunk beds, 2 long divided desks from the 70s, single windows, mini bathroom with at least hot water, one mini kitchen and fridge for 22 rooms (90 students) .. no fridge, no kitchen in practise. Yet it was not that bad.

I shared my 10 sq meter room in UK with a friend for a few months. We both were withoug grants. I've lived in several places with 5-6 other people in 4-5 bedroom apartment. I don't want to go to talk about poverty. Oh, water home in Palermo every 2 days 6 am to midday. Sometimes it went away earlier. And last few years it's been ever 2 - 3 days. And in some cities water a few hours every 6 days. Having 4 showers a day feels so form an other planet when you can as opposed to that have one every few days. Yet you don't NEED water every day, just PREFER it..
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post #34 of 95
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
She hasn't mentioned skin color at all, you are.

According to him (trumptman) I don't like WASPs.

(Or was it just pseudo-intellectual conservatives I didn't like?)
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post #35 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
And you haven't supported this claim in the least. You're attacking someone when their point is valid, but you're attacking them personally (albeit backhandedly) without supporting your point.

She hasn't mentioned skin color at all, you are.

She has made reference to me and my supposed in ability to have experience poverty due to my racial background.

She claimed racism keeps down people with degrees from other countries and who don't speak the language of that country, even while admitting that I would encounter the same issues in Italy and I happen to be over half Italian and a "white male."

She has made numerous declarations about WASP's and Mexicans.

Try again,

Nick

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post #36 of 95
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Giaguara
Happy to see you have lived and actually worked on also other than your teacher job, nick.

Oh how could I have worked Gia? According to you that isn't possible. I just must have had things handed to me for being a white male right?

Quote:
You would absolutely not get a job in Italy with your degree, earning what you earn here. Even if your degree was Italian, you were Italian and you knew the right persons. If you are a university director of department, your income (male) is about 2,500 $ / mo. Minus taxes.
It is far more viable one with a degree from any Italian university chooses to go anywhere elsewhere to live (vs. survive).

But you are not Italian, you don't speak Italian .. wait for a few years for processing your degree, do more exams, pay for 30 different offices for doing more paper to process you, apply for 60 different licences and licences to stay and to work. And you may end up either teaching English or working for any American company. Anyone having an accent is looked down .. in most cases. In most places. Wait, you would not pass those tests as you don't speak Italian.

What I ment with the previous post example of not mastering the language correctly was to useless languages such as Finnish or Norwegian. If they don't want you and even when 95 % of the population speaks good english, you can always be refused as your that language is not perfect. You could spend there the next 20 years of my life and still be not perfect.

(more sarcasm)

Oh but I thought the lower earnings, lack of degree recognition, and not being able to earn with their degree were all RACISM. How could that possibly happen to me when I am a white male?

You prove my point which is that all countries have these procedures and subject everyone to them equally. It happened to affect people who immigrant from one country to another, say the United States, because the immigration is only one way. There are not millions clamoring to immigrate to Mexico (retire, yes, immigrant no) from the United States or say from the United States to India. (Exactly what caste would I be in anyway?) So the procedures tend to disproportionately affect certain groups. However you said yourself that if I went through the process to move to another country, the same issues would arise. That means it is independent from racism.

Quote:
I don't consider myself having lived really in poverty. I worked one summer in Slovakia, and my salary was 125 $ a month. That was an average pay in 1997 there. I shared one room with a Finnish married guy (I have forgotten his name), an Italian and Croatian guy, a Greek girl and so on. 4 bunk beds, 2 long divided desks from the 70s, single windows, mini bathroom with at least hot water, one mini kitchen and fridge for 22 rooms (90 students) .. no fridge, no kitchen in practise. Yet it was not that bad.

I shared my 10 sq meter room in UK with a friend for a few months. We both were withoug grants. I've lived in several places with 5-6 other people in 4-5 bedroom apartment. I don't want to go to talk about poverty. Oh, water home in Palermo every 2 days 6 am to midday. Sometimes it went away earlier. And last few years it's been ever 2 - 3 days. And in some cities water a few hours every 6 days. Having 4 showers a day feels so form an other planet when you can as opposed to that have one every few days. Yet you don't NEED water every day, just PREFER it..

So basically you are telling me to go experience poverty to understand it, not knowing I have already experienced it to the point of being homeless, while you yourself can make judgements and understand it while not having truly experienced these issues.

Yep, it just keeps getting thicker in here from you guys.. (the bullshit)

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #37 of 95
Quote:
Originally posted by BJer
There are certainly other issues to consider in addition to income. A full time job often enhances the person's (either man or woman) self esteem, confidence and other psychological elements that contributes to a better family life. Additionally, a person who is pushed into a working environment is more adept at handling different circumstances than someone who is at home all the time. Taking time out to take care of the new arrival- child, is good and would be valuable but out of the working environment for too long dulls the social and societal senses and may end up creating gaps between the mates.

That's so full of bullshit.
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post #38 of 95
Quote:
Originally posted by JRC
That's so full of bullshit.

It is? I agree fully with what the BeiJinger stated. Can you be more specific?
post #39 of 95
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
She has made numerous declarations about WASP's and Mexicans.

Yeah, she claimed that if all white couples decided to become one income families immigrants would pick up the slack.
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post #40 of 95
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Oh how could I have worked Gia? According to you that isn't possible. I just must have had things handed to me for being a white male right?

[...]
Oh but I thought the lower earnings, lack of degree recognition, and not being able to earn with their degree were all RACISM. How could that possibly happen to me when I am a white male?
[...]
So basically you are telling me to go experience poverty to understand it, not knowing I have already experienced it to the point of being homeless, while you yourself can make judgements and understand it while not having truly experienced these issues.

You just sound like you have only had your degree, and worked only in white collar works.

Racism can happen to anyone. In one of my jobs in UK there was one boss who was racist. A black British who did not like the whites.

Yes. Live the poverty and understand it. When the hot water is the only luxury you have, after turning back to "normality" I assume you don't "NEED" the 4+X room houses, 3 trucks, etc etc etc. The fact I did not start to list any of the poverty issues I have had does not mean I have not lived them. I am skinny but sometimes it was also because I had 4 £ to spend for food in a week (before getting one more job). That's about 2 coffees if I drink out, or one coffee and 4 cans of beans from Sainsbury's.

A month in Africa changes most people. In better.
How many problems have you modified or originated in the past 1 day?
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How many problems have you modified or originated in the past 1 day?
Reply
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