Vatican: condoms don't stop Aids - Page 6  

You know, this is just the "morals before life" stance that makes the churches teachings so despicable, immoral and unethical in my (and certainly not only my) eyes.
It is a Good Thing [tm] that the number of those blind enough to follow such a barbaric religion is going down (at least over here) year after year, I certainly hope I do live long enough to see them as irrelevant as they deserve.

Any human being should be compassionate enough to put theory behind practice, experience above teaching and human needs above the desires of some unproven, absent and (if existent) cold-hearted "god" thing.

Heck, I'd rather see a population screw around like rabbits (there is nothing immoral about this) then see one hemophiliac die because the blood donor was a freaking honest-to-god catholic who used to happen to fvck with some bastard lying about his other sex partner.
Having sex is human nature, get over it already. Preaching life-long abstinence or life-long monogamy is trying to force something people are not made for.

Sorry, I know I said I wasn't going to reply again. But I just feel so bad for this person I have to respond. This belief is a protestant belief, but not at all a Catholic one. If you would like, email me and I will give you a list of good books to read if you are sincerely interested in knowing.

Yes, have you ?


There's this book called the Bible. Luke is a writer in that book who claims to be an eyewitness to the events he describes. You'll find his contribuition two other chap's called Matthew and Mark.

And yes, I suppose they were quite irrational sometimes.

Guess old Jukey doesn't see the Inquisition (2 milion dead plus), Crusades (1.5 Million), European Witch hunts (3 Million), St Cyril (250, 000 in one afternoon), Nazi collaboration (6 Million plus) and now AIDS (X Million) as morally reprehensible.

At least he's bang on about the not saving lives bit.

A mind is like a parachute, it only works if its open.

But seriously, you think I haven't thought of all these questions? Faith is a lifelong journey, not something you find after reading a post on apple insider. If you are interested in starting that journey, email me and I will send you a list of books to get you started. I started as a staunch non-believer as well, so I understand the hostility. But its amazing what a 1 year attempt to disprove christianity did to me.

Had to happen, the conversion 'close'.

Got to give you maximum credit for the stupendous 2-day build-up.

Keyboard, I never read it - is it a novel or what ? If old JBH wouldn't like it that's good enough for me

America no longer "kills Indians and keeps slaves." It does actively and often corporately discriminate against homosexuals, non-Christians and especially non-theists, but somehow, I don't think a piece of... you like you would find those things to be bad.

Until you can show me a new, official "throw them to the wolves at the first sign of an accusation" policy within the Catholic Church, I see no reason to believe those lying, evil old men when they say they've reformed. They hid child molesters. Every single bishop in America who knew of this practice should be thrown in jail for the rest of their lives and the entire Curia should be indicted and barred from ever visiting the United States.

And then there's the Protestants, who were responsible for most of the witch hunts in post-Reformation Europe, who started their own, bloody anti-Catholic wars, and who ran one of the most despotic regimes in European history in Geneva under the Calvinists.

And at least nowadays the Catholics don't try to muck up text books with creationist bullspit or myths about talking snakes and magic gardens.

Both sides are so caked with blood and evil that they make me want to vomit. It is time for the world to take St. Paul's advice and put away childish things... including silly beliefs about a magical old man who lives in the sky.

Now, whos so beaten he's tucking his tail between his legs and runs? :-P

You absolute must read it. its a novel that mixes art history, bible(mostly Catholic) history and a murder mystery all in one...

here's the blurb:

Amazon.com
With The Da Vinci Code, Dan Brown masterfully concocts an intelligent and lucid thriller that marries the gusto of an international murder mystery with a collection of fascinating esoteria culled from 2,000 years of Western history.

A murder in the silent after-hour halls of the Louvre museum reveals a sinister plot to uncover a secret that has been protected by a clandestine society since the days of Christ. The victim is a high-ranking agent of this ancient society who, in the moments before his death, manages to leave gruesome clues at the scene that only his granddaughter, noted cryptographer Sophie Neveu, and Robert Langdon, a famed symbologist, can untangle. The duo become both suspects and detectives searching for not only Neveu's father's murderer but also the stunning secret of the ages he was charged to protect. Mere steps ahead of the authorities and the deadly competition, the mystery leads Neveu and Langdon on a breathless flight through France, England, and history itself.


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

Based on your posts I guarantee you will love it...!

Yeah, it's like a breath of fresh air in here already...

No thank you. I was raised catholic. I've had my fill. Thanks for the conversion offer though...

WHO cares if people have promiscuous sex, the Vatican shouldnt concern them selves with that, when there are so many other problems in the world. Where were they when 500 000 children per year died in Iraq during the sanction. If having sex outside of wedlock a sin, how is concealing priests who rape little boy not a sin? The Catholic church needs to get off its ass and reform. What I dont get is, that first of all you cann't use contraception, and second of all, a woman cant say not to her man. So lets all have 14 kids, and live in poverty.

Thnx god i'm not a Catholic.

I'm sorry, is there still a point to this thread? I really think its just a logical crash-and-burn for anybody who's studied the issues to NOT believe...

Fine. Log-off and jerk-off.

You idiot. You can't just say "condoms = more sex" and only back it up with an anecdote. Is that all you have? Is this what Jukebox Hero is about? </oreilly>

both sides of the argument are anecdotal. You shouldn't be so hard on yourself, calling yourself an idiot.

This is roughly the level of maturity I have come to expect from a believer.

haha. I gave up trying to have an intelligent discussion about the time you made your first remarks. It was obvious that I wasn't working with a bunch of rocket scientists. It has amazed me for two days that, observing the logic that has gone into these responses, that you people have the intelligence necessary to log on to this forum.

Someone of your intelligence should know that that you don't need to use the word 'that' twice in your sentence.

You've made a claim that contradicts something in the article, but you can only support it with anecdotal evidence. But because you can't support your claim, you consider the rest of us unintelligent.

Noticed it. Decided it made things easier to read. Also know I'm writing in fragments. Not stopping me from getting my point across...


The article itself had only anecdotal evidence. So then I won the argument before it even began I suppose.

If you really care about a government or organization, then when you see something wrong with that organization you point it out and demand a change. You are anti-Catholic, JH.

Now, seriously.

Condom failure rate: 5%.
Abstinance failure rate (i.e. you tell 100 people to be abstinant, how many will still have sex): Much more than 5%, I'd wager.

Are you a virgin, JH? Are you pre-puberty and haven't developed a sex drive? Or are you a repressed homosexual who denies sexual existance because of church doctrine?

Actually, there are groups within the CATHOLIC CHURCH who are free enough and progressive enough to speak out against the worst aspects of the church. Condoms would be #1 in most people's books there. Abortion would be another. Gay rights would be a third.

Not really. You haven't shown any evidence that's even similar to the evidence I linked. The church says one thing, Thailand has less death with more condom use.

Go ahead and show some numbers that are more than someone just speaking out their ass. Thailand is a good start at some good proof. Go ahead and get started. Show something. Anything. Or troll away.

Thank you for the logical, respectful response.

I'm happily married with 3 kids (no Natural Family Planning cracks, all were planned). I do not buy the theory that "people can do no better, so why try!"

Look how convoluted modern society is that we don't even know who the victim is and who the perpetrator is.

Victim=Person who gets HIV (from any means).

Perpetrator=Person who knowingly deceives or who increases risk through negligence.

And I know the argument, "but these people don't know any better!" But I have three kids... Trust me, I recognize the difference between ignorance and stubbornness. In the case where someone gets HIV through stubborness, they are both perpetrator and victim.

What this whole debate reminds me of is a story that broke the news back a couple weeks ago. There was a mom who robbed a bank with her two 15 year old daughters. The mom later said that she robbed the bank because she thought she had no choice. One of the daughters told her that they were robbing the bank with or without her. So she decided to assist in the robbery to protect her two children from harm.

For people that don't believe in God, theres no incongruence; Give the poor people condoms. But for Catholics, God is the the sole author of truth and moral law. You can debate until you're blue in the face that Catholic moral doctrine has changed, but the simple truth is that it hasn't. I have seen numerous Catholic libraries and have seen pictures of the official library in the Vatican. They have the most incredibly thorough documentation of any organization I've ever seen. Any organization would be stunned to see at what great lengths they've gone through to preserve every last detail of their faith.

So now, I can't speak for all Catholics because they all have their own opinions, just the same as non-Catholics. But I have no problem with people doing what the want, where they want. But I will not be an accessory to anything that violates the law that I feel God has set forth for me.

Catholics are not actively trying to take condoms away from people. They are saying that they will not allow their mercinaries to distribute condoms. Lets keep that straight! The reason that its an issue is that the mercinaries are primarily Catholic. What that means is that the majority of the people over there trying to help are Catholics. So perhaps the folks sitting in their comfy chairs (myself included) complaining about things should get off their butts and pitch in their time/money/bodies to help.

Ok, fine. Condom use didn't start until what, the 50's? 60's? HIV was first discovered in the early 80's. So theres some pretty compelling evidence that condom use is what created the AIDS crisis to begin with. Do you see how wide-eyed theories can prove or disprove anything?

Are you daft? Nuns are telling infected husbands not to use condoms when they have sex with their wives. Priests are saying that Condoms are laced with HIV. Non-Catholic AIDS Center management are not distributing condoms because of church opposition. Or are you just ignoring that part?

Victim: Person who gets killed in an auto accident for any reason.
Perpetrator: The person behind the wheel of the car at fault.

Looks like it's time you join the Amish, JH.

Wow.

Wow.

Try here. Condom use increased from 61% to 93%, while the number of people going to brothels dropped in half. I guess that kind of refutes your theory that condom use increases promiscuity.

If they are, they're doing it without official Catholic support. It wouldn't be the first time a Catholic gave Catholics a bad name. Its a shame and its inappropriate.


That may be the "official" stance of non-catholic AIDS centers. But my guess is that they find ways to do covertly do their will. Might I suggest that the clinics that have stopped distributing condoms have done it because they have an inkling that they're doing something wrong.


Ok.


Just when I thought you were going to be respectful.

The AIDS crisis began because of an infection that spread from the Mt. Elgon region of Africa to Europe and then to the United States in the gay community. Gays were ten years late to the sexual revolution, since the gay rights movement didn't start until Stonewall, at the end of the 1960s, and didn't tend to use condoms because pregnancy was not a concern. Had the government responded quickly to the first HIV and AIDS cases in the 1970s and early 1980s, the crisis in North America might be far less. Of course, since it was only fags who were dying, no one cared, particularly not Ronald Reagan's White House.

However, in Africa, AIDS is spread almost entirely through consensual, heterosexual sex due to a lack of condom usage. These are the countries that will have staggering population collapses -- and the places where the Church is doing "God's work" by fighting education on safe sex.

No, they're trying to actively block access to them. Just like they did in America, until the Griswold decision.

Thank you, Kirkland, for pointing out some very poignant facts on the subject. Anyone still think condoms help spread AIDS? Anyone still believe the Earth is flat?

I am not surprised one iota that a "believer" confuses correlation with causation.

If condom usage and AIDS go so hand in hand, then surely HIV infection rates must be higher for, say, Episcopalians than they are for Catholics, hmmm? Since the Episcopal Church was the first mainstream Protestant body in the United States to say "a-okay" to artificial birth control, back in the 1950s, I believe, their ranks should be crawling with HIV-sufferers by now.

Whereas Catholics, with their no-condom policy, must be the most HIV-free folks on God's green (well, mostly blue) earth.

Of course, that's an absurd notion. But its no more absurd than Jukebox's conception that condoms somehow encourage the spread of the HIV virus.

Frankly, if people would just stay away from Mt. Elgon, this sorta thing wouldn't happen. Stupid African mountains with their stupid super-viruses.

No, surely this is an EXCELLENT point.

Why don't we look at communities, I don't know, say a country that his put forward a programme called "ABC" (standing for abstinence, being faithful and using a condom) versus places that the condom part has been restricted?

Maybe Ghana versus Nigeria?

Jukebox, let me ask you something. If a country aggressively followed an ABC programme and its neighbour purposefully left out the C part of it, what would you think would happen? What would you guess scientifically captured experimental data would say about those two countries?

Put your money where your mouth is baby.

I see it the other way around. Brothel usage dropped because permscuity became a widespread phenomenon that made brothels unnecessary.

They are not "fighting" education on safe sex. They are teaching the Catholic version of safe sex; don't have sex out of wedlock. Again, the only reason you have a problem is that there are a disproportionate number of Catholics out in these third world countries trying to help, as opposed to the religion-of-idealism members that sit in this forum and complain.

If they are then thats stupid. Catholics are not going to win anything by taking away peoples freedom of choice. They need to win by means of their compassion. Please don't hold it against Catholisism that some Catholics choose a stupid path.

Theological question here (I don't want you to answer - it's just that you always run away from them and leave us alone for a bit):

Why did God create people with the desire to go round shagging ?

If you answer 'to procreate' then why did he not make humans seasonal in their mating habits and 'go on heat' like the rest of the animal kingdom ?

Obviously it's possible (He is God after all) and indeed He did it with many other creatures. So is this a design fault ? A mistake ?

That should get us some peace for a while. Now where were we....oh yes...pervert priests....