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Vatican: condoms don't stop Aids - Page 7  

post #241 of 380
10/13/03 at 6:38am
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
Anyone still think condoms help spread AIDS?

Again, your getting your view of the Catholic argument from a skewed source. Its not an issue of -spreading- AIDs. The issue is that it doesn't -solve- the problem.
post #242 of 380
10/13/03 at 6:39am
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
I am not surprised one iota that a "believer" confuses correlation with causation.

Your biggotry is nothing short of astounding.
post #243 of 380
10/13/03 at 6:43am
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkland
If condom usage and AIDS go so hand in hand, then surely HIV infection rates must be higher for, say, Episcopalians than they are for Catholics, hmmm? Since the Episcopal Church was the first mainstream Protestant body in the United States to say "a-okay" to artificial birth control, back in the 1950s, I believe, their ranks should be crawling with HIV-sufferers by now.

Whereas Catholics, with their no-condom policy, must be the most HIV-free folks on God's green (well, mostly blue) earth.

Of course, that's an absurd notion. But its no more absurd than Jukebox's conception that condoms somehow encourage the spread of the HIV virus.

Frankly, if people would just stay away from Mt. Elgon, this sorta thing wouldn't happen. Stupid African mountains with their stupid super-viruses.

I was merely pointing out the absurdity of the original assertion. But apparently the absurdity was lost on you. Your argument that Catholics must be the most HIV-free folks on earth falls apart when you realize that a large percentage of Catholics ignore the teachings of The Church and use them anyway.
post #244 of 380
10/13/03 at 6:44am
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
No, surely this is an EXCELLENT point.

Why don't we look at communities, I don't know, say a country that his put forward a programme called "ABC" (standing for abstinence, being faithful and using a condom) versus places that the condom part has been restricted?

Maybe Ghana versus Nigeria?

Jukebox, let me ask you something. If a country aggressively followed an ABC programme and its neighbour purposefully left out the C part of it, what would you think would happen? What would you guess scientifically captured experimental data would say about those two countries?

Put your money where your mouth is baby.

Great. I will just need a little bit of your help getting started. Please make sure that everybody follows the rules 100%. Let me know when you have that under control.
post #245 of 380
10/13/03 at 6:49am
God let it stop! (looks for muzzle loading antique shotgun....)
I never get tired of being right all the time... but I do get tired of having to prove it to you again and again.
I never get tired of being right all the time... but I do get tired of having to prove it to you again and again.
post #246 of 380
10/13/03 at 6:54am
Quote:
Originally posted by Not Unlike Myself
God let it stop! (looks for muzzle loading antique shotgun....)

Yeah - someone say something offensive and get Powerdoc in here in his locking capacity.

I'm two posts away from doing the decent thing and wheeling out a Hitler/Bush comparison.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #247 of 380
10/13/03 at 7:26am
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Yeah - someone say something offensive and get Powerdoc in here in his locking capacity.

The cockroaches all want the lights shut back off.
post #248 of 380
10/13/03 at 7:36am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
The cockroaches all want the lights shut back off.

That should do it...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #249 of 380
10/13/03 at 8:11am
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Yeah - someone say something offensive and get Powerdoc in here in his locking capacity.

I'm two posts away from doing the decent thing and wheeling out a Hitler/Bush comparison.....

There is something better than to ask me or to oblige me to lock a thread : you should just leave it.

I have tried to put a condom in my head in order to protect me from AO : it failed, the condom must be full of holes ...
post #250 of 380
10/13/03 at 8:15am
post #251 of 380
10/13/03 at 8:23am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
Great. I will just need a little bit of your help getting started. Please make sure that everybody follows the rules 100%. Let me know when you have that under control.

The Rules:

We examine Ghana against a control West African state that has followed an approach to AIDS that discounts the condom. You may choose this state. You may also choose a state that followed an active approach without the use of condoms if you wish. If you don't, I'll choose one.

We look at the percentage increase or decrease of AIDS in that country during the lifespan of the activity as our benchmark, as given by reputable organisations (I believe we can agree on that; goverment, non-government international agencies, major charities without political backing).

Simple.

How does that sound?
meh
meh
post #252 of 380
10/13/03 at 8:43am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
The cockroaches all want the lights shut back off.

Click to turn the light on?
I never get tired of being right all the time... but I do get tired of having to prove it to you again and again.
I never get tired of being right all the time... but I do get tired of having to prove it to you again and again.
post #253 of 380
10/13/03 at 9:12am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
If they are then thats stupid. Catholics are not going to win anything by taking away peoples freedom of choice.

Catholicism is a religion that's all about control and fealty to ecclessial superiors. The Catholic Church hates freedom and equality, as shown by its many actions, both here in the United States (where Catholic legislators passed laws making it illegal for anyone... even non-Catholics... to gain access to condoms in many, many states) and abroad.

Quote:
They need to win by means of their compassion.

As a gay male, please spare me your perverted church's concept of "compassion."
post #254 of 380
10/13/03 at 9:14am
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
I'm two posts away from doing the decent thing and wheeling out a Hitler/Bush comparison.....

Well, I'm sure this pope likes Bush as much as Pius XII liked Hitler.
post #255 of 380
10/13/03 at 9:21am
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkland
Well, I'm sure this pope likes Bush as much as Pius XII liked Hitler.

I am not sure of this one, (if you imply that Pisus XII was an Hitler fan). The pope openly criticize the war in Iraq. I am not sure that Bush is on his fan list, nor Bush is a fan of the pope.
post #256 of 380
10/13/03 at 9:21am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
They are not "fighting" education on safe sex. They are teaching the Catholic version of safe sex; don't have sex out of wedlock.

If you are teaching, you have an obligation to watch for the effect of what you are saying (in contrast to just uttering a personal view).

The RC church is teaching that condoms are bad, they are teaching an ideal of chastity and monogamy that is so obviously out of this world that it has failed to work for 2000 years. You, and your teachers are turning a willfully blind eye to the consequences of your inhumane ideology, that is death, suffering and spreading of STDs. To push the standards of morale so high that no ordinary human being is able to abide to it and then if he fails to put the blame on him instead of the theory that has caused him to fail is a most unethical behavior.
post #257 of 380
10/13/03 at 9:26am
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
The Rules:

We examine Ghana against a control West African state that has followed an approach to AIDS that discounts the condom. You may choose this state. You may also choose a state that followed an active approach without the use of condoms if you wish. If you don't, I'll choose one.

We look at the percentage increase or decrease of AIDS in that country during the lifespan of the activity as our benchmark, as given by reputable organisations (I believe we can agree on that; goverment, non-government international agencies, major charities without political backing).

Simple.

How does that sound?

How do you propose that we make sure that the West African state is following the perscribed Catholic approach? That was the rule I was referring to.
post #258 of 380
10/13/03 at 9:31am
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkland
Catholicism is a religion that's all about control and fealty to ecclessial superiors. The Catholic Church hates freedom and equality, as shown by its many actions, both here in the United States (where Catholic legislators passed laws making it illegal for anyone... even non-Catholics... to gain access to condoms in many, many states) and abroad.

Your opinion.

Quote:

As a gay male, please spare me your perverted church's concept of "compassion."

I'm sorry if you've been mistreated. Abstinence is a tough pill to swallow. But much like the paraplegic is bound to a wheelchair and a blind man is not free to see the birds, so is a Gay man bound to abstinence according to God's law. He made you that way so he must have a reason. Don't take it out on the messengers.
post #259 of 380
10/13/03 at 9:33am
Quote:
Originally posted by Smircle
If you are teaching, you have an obligation to watch for the effect of what you are saying (in contrast to just uttering a personal view).

The RC church is teaching that condoms are bad, they are teaching an ideal of chastity and monogamy that is so obviously out of this world that it has failed to work for 2000 years. You, and your teachers are turning a willfully blind eye to the consequences of your inhumane ideology, that is death, suffering and spreading of STDs. To push the standards of morale so high that no ordinary human being is able to abide to it and then if he fails to put the blame on him instead of the theory that has caused him to fail is a most unethical behavior.

This is much the way that Jesus described the church 2000 years ago. He said that the ideal is set so high that most will fail. But don't get angry at me because of the failures. I'm just pointing out what I believe the Lord told me.
post #260 of 380
10/13/03 at 9:39am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
Your opinion.



I'm sorry if you've been mistreated. Abstinence is a tough pill to swallow. But much like the paraplegic is bound to a wheelchair and a blind man is not free to see the birds, so is a Gay man bound to abstinence according to God's law. He made you that way so he must have a reason. Don't take it out on the messengers.

Ah yes, but you see, I have 100% faith in the fact in the fact that gay men are allowed to have as much fun as they like with their bodies. They are allowed to fall in love, declare their love (legally if they like) and, crucially, **** till they are sore if they like, just like men and women.

I have 100% faith in this.

And as for you relating gay men to people with sickness or disability, there are few ways I can express my contempt without getting a ban. So I'll stick to rubbing your nose in the fallacy of your main argument; namely that condoms do not prevent AIDS, because I can prove it.

Or are you chicken to take me up on my offer?
meh
meh
post #261 of 380
10/13/03 at 9:42am
Quote:
He made you that way so he must have a reason. Don't take it out on the messengers.




No he didn't. My God made him, his name is Ra the Sun God. He's a pretty hot diety.
post #262 of 380
10/13/03 at 9:43am
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
There is something better than to ask me or to oblige me to lock a thread : you should just leave it.

It's good in theory Powerdoc but you see I can't leave it - I'm hopelessly addicticted to Church-bashing. I even think I'm doing a public service. I just can't let it lie....

...To misquote a Mr J T Ripper: I am down on authoritarian control systems and I won't stop ripping them till I do get buckled....

Somebody stop me.....I'm going to totally destroy another right-wing post before the night is over.....I mean it....this is serious.....the urge is getting stronger.....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #263 of 380
10/13/03 at 9:45am
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
Ah yes, but you see, I have 100% faith in the fact in the fact that gay men are allowed to have as much fun as they like with their bodies. They are allowed to fall in love, declare their love (legally if they like) and, crucially, **** till they are sore if they like, just like men and women.

I have 100% faith in this.

And as for you relating gay men to people with sickness or disability, there are few ways I can express my contempt without getting a ban. So I'll stick to rubbing your nose in the fallacy of your main argument; namely that condoms do not prevent AIDS, because I can prove it.

Or are you chicken to take me up on my offer?


If it were up to me, I would tell him it was okay and to have at it. But I bow to my creator. It is his decision, not mine. Honestly I wish there was something else I could tell him because it hurts to have to tell him the truth.

There are lots of diseases that people are born with. All disease is unfortunate. It would also be unfortunate to pass some sort of moral judgement on a gay person. I have no problem with gays. I also believe they are free to do what they want. But as for me and my family, we choose the Lord.
post #264 of 380
10/13/03 at 9:47am
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
It's good in theory Powerdoc but you see I can't leave it - I'm hopelessly addicticted to Church-bashing. I even think I'm doing a public service. I just can't let it lie....

...To misquote a Mr J T Ripper: I am down on authoritarian control systems and I won't stop ripping them till I do get buckled....

Somebody stop me.....I'm going to totally destroy another right-wing post before the night is over.....I mean it....this is serious.....the urge is getting stronger.....

Ahh, the real issue surfaces. One of self control.
post #265 of 380
10/13/03 at 9:53am
Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardf12


No he didn't. My God made him, his name is Ra the Sun God. He's a pretty hot diety.

Which is fine and great. But if you really did worship Ra, you would feel the obligation to correct people when they misquote him.
post #266 of 380
10/13/03 at 9:54am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
This is much the way that Jesus described the church 2000 years ago.

No he didn't - that's a blatant mistruth (and therefore a sin) - there was no church in Jesus's lifetime.

The first Church's were founded by the Apostles and Paul after Jesus's death AND they demonstrably have no relation to the Catholic Church whatsoever - especially as the doctrine of Apostolic succession was introduced (ie invented) 400 years later.

The fact is that after a couple of generations of persecuting and killing the early Christians (the real Christians that is) the Roman Empire realised it was merely creating martyrs and strengthening the faith so they decided on a new (and brilliant) tactic: co-opt the religion but rewrite it, thus solving two problems. One, saving the Roman Empire which was by then in terminal decline and Two, neutralising Christianity as a threat by taking it over and rewriting it.

The Catholic Church is merely the ossified husk of the former Roman Empire and the Pope a shadowy decayed simulacrum of the Emperor. Unfortunately the barbarity and unsophistication of the initial prototype lives on and still wreaks its havoc. It's Caligula without the orgies - or perhaps, more correctly, merely Caligula with guilt and the ability to hide the crimes.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #267 of 380
10/13/03 at 9:56am
Nah. I just let them read them our 2000 year old book that "sort of' defines our rules. Its filled will major inconsitiances but what they hey..

We are a happy go lucky religion. We don't try to control people.

BTW stop claiming your god made harald. My God is getting angry that your god is trying to take the credit...
post #268 of 380
10/13/03 at 9:59am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
If it were up to me, I would tell him it was okay and to have at it. But I bow to my creator. It is his decision, not mine. Honestly I wish there was something else I could tell him because it hurts to have to tell him the truth.

There are lots of diseases that people are born with. All disease is unfortunate. It would also be unfortunate to pass some sort of moral judgement on a gay person. I have no problem with gays. I also believe they are free to do what they want. But as for me and my family, we choose the Lord.

But this surely is unscriptural - do you not believe that gay men (and women) should be put to death as outlined in Leviticus ?

As you say, you have to bow to your creator so if you believe Leviticus to be his legitimate word then surely you must believe this. Or is Leviticus not the word of God ?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #269 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:00am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
If it were up to me, I would tell him it was okay and to have at it. But I bow to my creator. It is his decision, not mine. Honestly I wish there was something else I could tell him because it hurts to have to tell him the truth.

There are lots of diseases that people are born with. All disease is unfortunate. It would also be unfortunate to pass some sort of moral judgement on a gay person. I have no problem with gays. I also believe they are free to do what they want. But as for me and my family, we choose the Lord.

No, you little cop-out, have some responsiblity for your own actions. Know that whoever or whatever your are claiming for the rightness or wrongness of your opinions, you are following a line of action that puts you in the worst company of people who ever walked the ****ing planet.

Who else equated gay people with sick people?

Who else wished to reduce gay people's rights to freedom with their own bodies?

Your Church is not infallible. Ex cathedra statements can be wrong. Non-ex cathedra statements can be wrong. When it's mumbo jumbo like transubstantiation, go for it: I have utter respect for you to believe what you like if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy about your God.

But the second you start evangelising courses of action that differ from pink triangles and gas chambers in nothing but degree, or condone lies from incompetents that will result in millions of deaths, then this is beyond your right to believe mumbo jumbo. It's about the health of my planet.

There are those who, with 100% faith, take pre-pubescent girls and cut off their clitorises with rusty knives. If they die, it is God's will. With this anti-condom shit the Catholic Church is going deeper into sickness. More avoidable death, more avoidable orphans, more pain. Justification? God said it was so, and inconvenient facts are therefore trumped by faith.

Nauseating.
meh
meh
post #270 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:04am
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
No he didn't - that's a blatant mistruth (and therefore a sin) - there was no church in Jesus's lifetime.

The first Church's were founded by the Apostles and Paul after Jesus's death AND they demonstrably have no relation to the Catholic Church whatsoever - especially as the doctrine of Apostolic succession was introduced (ie invented) 400 years later.

Well no. 1) Jesus isn't dead, 2) He handed the office of Pope to Peter when he said "you are my rock and upon this rock I will build my church", and 3) He visited the Apostles for 40 days after his resurrection and established his church in great detail. Thank you for proving my point that you know very little about Catholic doctrine.

Quote:

The fact is that after a couple of generations of persecuting and killing the early Christians (the real Christians that is) the Roman Empire realised it was merely creating martyrs and strengthening the faith so they decided on a new (and brilliant) tactic: co-opt the religion but rewrite it, thus solving two problems. One, saving the Roman Empire which was by then in terminal decline and Two, neutralising Christianity as a threat by taking it over and rewriting it.

The Catholic Church is merely the ossified husk of the former Roman Empire and the Pope a shadowy decayed simulacrum of the Emperor. Unfortunately the barbarity and unsophistication of the initial prototype lives on and still wreaks its havoc. It's Caligula without the orgies - or perhaps, more correctly, merely Caligula with guilt and the ability to hide the crimes.

Interesting theory. I think you've watched lord of the rings a few too many times.
post #271 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:06am
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
But this surely is unscriptural - do you not believe that gay men (and women) should be put to death as outlined in Leviticus ?

No, I do not. I feel that Jesus came to straighten out the misunderstandings of the old testament. The commandment to love your neighbor as yourself overrides murdering innocent people.

Quote:

As you say, you have to bow to your creator so if you believe Leviticus to be his legitimate word then surely you must believe this. Or is Leviticus not the word of God ?

Leviticus is the word of God transcribed by human beings, whom as you can see are full of biggotry and self importance.
post #272 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:08am
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
There are those who, with 100% faith, take pre-pubescent girls and cut off their clitorises with rusty knives.

You're a psycho.
post #273 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:09am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
Well no. 1) Jesus isn't dead, 2) He handed the office of Pope to Peter when he said "you are my rock and upon this rock I will build my church", and 3) He visited the Apostles for 40 days after his resurrection and established his church in great detail. Thank you for proving my point that you know very little about Catholic doctrine.

You're probably right - I like to know as little as possible about Catholic doctrine. Have read the New Testament from cover to cover though more times than I care to count.

Care to give the verses reference for this 'establsihment of the Church in detail' line ?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #274 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:10am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
You're a psycho.

Why?

There are those who practise female circumscision.

Sick isn't it?

They do it with as much faith as you have in your Church.

Catholic policy on AIDS will cause more death and pain.

DEAL WITH IT.
meh
meh
post #275 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:14am
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
You're probably right - I like to know as little as possible about Catholic doctrine. Have read the New Testament from cover to cover though more times than I care to count.

Care to give the verses reference for this 'establsihment of the Church in detail' line ?

have at it:

http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/b...on&showxref=on

Pay special attention to Jesus's reference to the gates of hades and what it will not be able to do.
post #276 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:16am
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
Why?

There are those who practise female circumscision.

Sick isn't it?

They do it with as much faith as you have in your Church.

Catholic policy on AIDS will cause more death and pain.

DEAL WITH IT.

Your a psycho because you are equating me with other religions. I only support and defend the Catholic religion. So why point out all these terrible, sick things?
post #277 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:18am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
have at it:

http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/b...on&showxref=on

Pay special attention to Jesus's reference to the gates of hades and what it will not be able to do.

Yeah, that's in detail.
--
"Evolution is not random. Mutation is random, but natural selection is entirely non-random. Evolution doesn't predict that all the complexity of life just came together randomly. Claiming...
--
"Evolution is not random. Mutation is random, but natural selection is entirely non-random. Evolution doesn't predict that all the complexity of life just came together randomly. Claiming...
post #278 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:23am
Quote:
Originally posted by Nordstrodamus
Yeah, that's in detail.


see that little textbox in the lower left hand corner where it says "search by passage"... well, type "matthew 16" and hit enter or click [go]...

Isn't technology grand?
post #279 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:25am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
Your a psycho because you are equating me with other religions. I only support and defend the Catholic religion. So why point out all these terrible, sick things?

Your religion is exactly like that religion: people do things and say things that result in pain and death. They do so with 100% faith and conviction that God has ordered it to be so.

I point out these terrible, sick things to get it into you that the course of action you justify with faith results in more pain for more people then having your clitoris cut off with a rusty knife. Not hyperbole. Dying of AIDS is worse. And dying of AIDS is largely avoidable by wearing a piece of plastic on your cock, which you would deny to people because God said it should be so.
meh
meh
post #280 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:26am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
I only support and defend the Catholic religion.

Ok, forgive me if I haven't been following along, but if you're here to defend the Catholic religion are you actually supporting the presentation of factually incorrect information about condoms and HIV?

Also, since the homosexuality issue was brought up can you explain to me how the church decides someone is, in fact, homosexual? I mean, I know of a lot of cases where people are born with indeterminate genitalia (both male and female aspects) and traditionally the doctors will make a choice to use surgery to make them boy or girl. Some of these people end up attracted to the "opposite" sex, at least opposite to the sex assigned them. Are they homosexuals?
--
"Evolution is not random. Mutation is random, but natural selection is entirely non-random. Evolution doesn't predict that all the complexity of life just came together randomly. Claiming...
--
"Evolution is not random. Mutation is random, but natural selection is entirely non-random. Evolution doesn't predict that all the complexity of life just came together randomly. Claiming...
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