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Vatican: condoms don't stop Aids - Page 8  

post #281 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:27am
Quote:
Originally posted by Nordstrodamus
Yeah, that's in detail.

My God, I see it now, I was totally wrong...we all were.... how could we miss this conclusive proof ? I mean what sort of denial were we living in ?

And thank God Jukebox pointed out to pay special attention to that last bit - with all the information overload IO might have missed it and gone to hell....


What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #282 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:28am
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
dying of AIDS is largely avoidable by wearing a piece of plastic on your cock, which you would deny to people because God said it should be so.

Its also largely avoidable by abstinence. I also never said anything about denying anything to anyone. Do what you please. As for me and my house, we will follow the Lord.
post #283 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:29am
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
My God, I see it now, I was totally wrong...we all were.... how could we miss this conclusive proof ? I mean what sort of denial were we living in ?

And thank God Jukebox pointed out to pay special attention to that last bit - with all the information overload IO might have missed it and gone to hell....



I am shocked beyond belief that you people have the intelligence necessary to log on to this website... simply amazing... Are you really retarded? If so, let me know and I will lay off.
post #284 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:29am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
If it were up to me, I would tell him it was okay and to have at it. But I bow to my creator. It is his decision, not mine. Honestly I wish there was something else I could tell him because it hurts to have to tell him the truth.

Stop equating YOUR OPINION with the truth.

Why should I believe that the crap you shovel here, your hatred of gays, your hatred of those who wish to have safe sex, your hatred of non-Catholics, is the truth?

Quote:
There are lots of diseases that people are born with.

Homosexuality is not a disease.

Catholicism is.

Quote:
But as for me and my family, we choose the Lord. [/B]

No, you choose what you think the Lord is. YOUR OPINION YOUR OPINION YOUR OPINION.

I disagree.

So why should I accept that you're right, and I'm wrong? What good reason can you give me?

I hope all your children grow up to be gay.
post #285 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:31am
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
No he didn't - that's a blatant mistruth (and therefore a sin) - there was no church in Jesus's lifetime.

The first Church's were founded by the Apostles and Paul after Jesus's death AND they demonstrably have no relation to the Catholic Church whatsoever - especially as the doctrine of Apostolic succession was introduced (ie invented) 400 years later.



That's not true. You can find references to the concept of Apostolic Succession, particularly the succession of the authority of the Bishop of Rome from Peter, in many second century Christian documents. The writings of St. Polycarp, for instance.
post #286 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:32am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
Your opinion.

Right back at you.


Quote:
But much like the paraplegic is bound to a wheelchair and a blind man is not free to see the birds, so is a Gay man bound to abstinence according to God's law.

Your opinion.
post #287 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:35am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
3) He visited the Apostles for 40 days after his resurrection and established his church in great detail.

Only in the Lucan narrative. In Mark and Matthew, there was no separation between Resurrection and Ascension. Mark doesn't even include the Resurrection. Luke, using Moses as his mold for his Christ figure, created the 40-day Pentecostal sequence as a means of highlighting his subtext. The other Gospel writers and Paul show no recollection of any such period, either in person or in early Christian lore.
post #288 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:35am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
Its also largely avoidable by abstinence. I also never said anything about denying anything to anyone. Do what you please. As for me and my house, we will follow the Lord.

I have been abstinent all my life. I marry my husband, who, sadly caught AIDS. I catch AIDS. A condom would have saved me; abstinence ALONE killed me.

You are condoning the point of view of the Catholic Church who would deny people condoms. Don't use semantic bullshit to avoid responsibility for what you have said or what you are implying.

You follow the Lord all you want. If His people are lying in His name it should be your duty to speak out. The Catholic Church has been wrong before (or do you think the sun goes round the Earth?) and it is wrong now.

Death and pain. Deal with it.
meh
meh
post #289 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:35am
Quote:
Originally posted by Nordstrodamus
Ok, forgive me if I haven't been following along, but if you're here to defend the Catholic religion are you actually supporting the presentation of factually incorrect information about condoms and HIV?

If the Catholic Church says it, then I'm am supporting it. If Joe Media says it as a mis-representation of the Catholic Church, then I do not support it.

Quote:

Also, since the homosexuality issue was brought up can you explain to me how the church decides someone is, in fact, homosexual? I mean, I know of a lot of cases where people are born with indeterminate genitalia (both male and female aspects) and traditionally the doctors will make a choice to use surgery to make them boy or girl. Some of these people end up attracted to the "opposite" sex, at least opposite to the sex assigned them. Are they homosexuals?

You act like abstinence is the worst thing that could happen to any person. It doesn't (or shouldn't) affect someones ability to love and to receive love. I really feel sorry for all of you that believe that is the entire kit-and-kaboodle that love has to offer. If someone is gay, there is nothing in God's law that says they can't live their life together and love each other. The only thing that God's law says is that they must abstain from sex.

You know, there are worse tragedies in the world than someone that can't have sex anymore. Don't you think this time and effort would be better spent trying to help someone who is truely suffering?
post #290 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:36am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
see that little textbox in the lower left hand corner where it says "search by passage"... well, type "matthew 16" and hit enter or click [go]...

Isn't technology grand?

Um, ok... not sure what I'm supposed to do with a buttload of bible passages, but I'm guessing your missing sego's point about "detail".

Anyway, did you catch my post at the end of page 7?

Edit in- ok, you did, never mind
--
"Evolution is not random. Mutation is random, but natural selection is entirely non-random. Evolution doesn't predict that all the complexity of life just came together randomly. Claiming...
--
"Evolution is not random. Mutation is random, but natural selection is entirely non-random. Evolution doesn't predict that all the complexity of life just came together randomly. Claiming...
post #291 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:36am
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkland
Stop equating YOUR OPINION with the truth.

Why should I believe that the crap you shovel here, your hatred of gays, your hatred of those who wish to have safe sex, your hatred of non-Catholics, is the truth?

I don't hate anyone. My opinion is backed up by 4000 years of documented human history. Yours has been largely invented within the last three or four hundred years.
post #292 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:37am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
As for me and my house, we will follow the Lord.

I wouldn't be so sure - I thought I saw your house buying a pack of condoms last week while you were out. It was slavering something about 'getting a load of the back door on condo #23'.

This is what happens if you spend to much time on the boards - when the cat's away and all that. I'd go and sort it out pronto if I was you - smite and chastise, it's the only way....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #293 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:40am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
Your a psycho because you are equating me with other religions. I only support and defend the Catholic religion. So why point out all these terrible, sick things?

Because they are analagous to the terrible and sick things your filthy religion is guilty of. The Crusades. The Inquisition. The massive and widespread rape and molestation of children by your "holy" priests.

The Catholic Church in America pushed through laws that barred anyone -- ANYONE -- from gaining access to birth control in many states. It took a Supreme Court action to strike down all those laws.

The Catholic Church in America is actively working to continue the current governmental discrimination and oppression against gay people who wish to form life-long, legally protected and binding relationships.

The Catholic Church in America protected pedophiles, moved them to new churches, let them rape -- RAPE -- more children. And did so without remorse.

That's a lot of evil. And all only in America.

The Catholic Church in Ireland took women who were knocked up in their teens and forced them into slave labor camps to "save their souls," forcing them to work for the rest of their lives sewing and doing laundry.

What a wonderful religion you protect. Nothing like those tribes who perform female circumcision, is it?
post #294 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:42am
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
You are condoning the point of view of the Catholic Church who would deny people condoms. Don't use semantic bullshit to avoid responsibility for what you have said or what you are implying.

Quote:

You follow the Lord all you want. If His people are lying in His name it should be your duty to speak out. The Catholic Church has been wrong before (or do you think the sun goes round the Earth?) and it is wrong now.

Death and pain. Deal with it.

I would most certainly speak out if I saw someone lying in His name. There was a time in human history when believers and non-believers alike were part of the Catholic Church. But God promised to preserve it for true believers.
post #295 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:43am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
If the Catholic Church says it, then I'm am supporting it. If Joe Media says it as a mis-representation of the Catholic Church, then I do not support it.


Whether it's factual or not?

Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
You act like abstinence is the worst thing that could happen to any person. It doesn't (or shouldn't) affect someones ability to love and to receive love. I really feel sorry for all of you that believe that is the entire kit-and-kaboodle that love has to offer. If someone is gay, there is nothing in God's law that says they can't live their life together and love each other. The only thing that God's law says is that they must abstain from sex.

Whoa, talk about your red herrings. Did I ever say abstinence is the worst thing in the world? I asked a simple question about how the catholic church decides if someone is a homosexual given my example of those afflicted with indeterminate genitalia. Care to take another try at it?

Quote:
You know, there are worse tragedies in the world than someone that can't have sex anymore. Don't you think this time and effort would be better spent trying to help someone who is truely suffering?

You mean like someone having to much sex, without birth control in an area where most people are dying from starvation? Yeah, your right, that is worse. (Put words in my mouth will ya! )
--
"Evolution is not random. Mutation is random, but natural selection is entirely non-random. Evolution doesn't predict that all the complexity of life just came together randomly. Claiming...
--
"Evolution is not random. Mutation is random, but natural selection is entirely non-random. Evolution doesn't predict that all the complexity of life just came together randomly. Claiming...
post #296 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:43am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
If the Catholic Church says it, then I'm am supporting it. If Joe Media says it as a mis-representation of the Catholic Church, then I do not support it.



So when the Catholic Church in America was saying that their priests didn't go around buggering little children, you supported them?

Quote:
You act like abstinence is the worst thing that could happen to any person.

No, I'd figure being married to you would be. I feel sorry for your wife.

Quote:
The only thing that God's law says is that they must abstain from sex.

In your opinion.
post #297 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:44am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
I don't hate anyone. My opinion is backed up by 4000 years of documented human history. Yours has been largely invented within the last three or four hundred years.

For thousands years people thought the Earth was the center of the universe. That doing bad things caused you to get sick. That parental sin caused "demonic possession." Just because a piece of "wisdom" is old doesn't mean it's right.
post #298 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:46am
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkland
Because they are analagous to the terrible and sick things your filthy religion is guilty of. The Crusades. The Inquisition. The massive and widespread rape and molestation of children by your "holy" priests.

The Catholic Church in America pushed through laws that barred anyone -- ANYONE -- from gaining access to birth control in many states. It took a Supreme Court action to strike down all those laws.

The Catholic Church in America is actively working to continue the current governmental discrimination and oppression against gay people who wish to form life-long, legally protected and binding relationships.

The Catholic Church in America protected pedophiles, moved them to new churches, let them rape -- RAPE -- more children. And did so without remorse.

That's a lot of evil. And all only in America.

The Catholic Church in Ireland took women who were knocked up in their teens and forced them into slave labor camps to "save their souls," forcing them to work for the rest of their lives sewing and doing laundry.

What a wonderful religion you protect. Nothing like those tribes who perform female circumcision, is it?

1) The Religion (The documented beliefs)

2) The People (Billions of people throughout history; people who lived in different times and places than the comfy spoiled couch you call America. Theres bound to be some rotton to the core. I could make the same sweeping generalization about non-Catholics by pointing out crimes that non-Catholics committed on the world. In the end it proves nothing. All it does is justify your bitterness.)
post #299 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:57am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
1) The Religion (The documented beliefs)

2) The People (Billions of people throughout history; people who lived in different times and places than the comfy spoiled couch you call America. Theres bound to be some rotton to the core. I could make the same sweeping generalization about non-Catholics by pointing out crimes that non-Catholics committed on the world. In the end it proves nothing. All it does is justify your bitterness.)

America is hardly a comfy couch when you're gay. This is a horrible nation if you're different than the norm. A hateful, parochial cesspool of scum and fundamentalists. And a lot of that is because of the Catholic Church and its evil, perverted doctrines, which fly directly in the face of reality when it comes to sexuality, sexual health, reproduction and other forms of biological science.
post #300 of 380
10/13/03 at 10:58am
The Catholic Church has been wrong before.

The earth moves, as Galilleo said on his death bed.

The Catholic Church is lying when it says that condoms do not prevent AIDS, and millions would die if the advice was taken.

Why then will you not speak out about this?
meh
meh
post #301 of 380
10/13/03 at 11:15am
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkland
America is hardly a comfy couch when you're gay. This is a horrible nation if you're different than the norm. A hateful, parochial cesspool of scum and fundamentalists. And a lot of that is because of the Catholic Church and its evil, perverted doctrines, which fly directly in the face of reality when it comes to sexuality, sexual health, reproduction and other forms of biological science.

Especially when you want to be a sexual deviant.
post #302 of 380
10/13/03 at 11:16am
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
The Catholic Church has been wrong before.

The earth moves, as Galilleo said on his death bed.

The Catholic Church is lying when it says that condoms do not prevent AIDS, and millions would die if the advice was taken.

Why then will you not speak out about this?

Ok. Please point me to the official Catholic Doctrine that outlines that condoms do not prevent AIDS. If you can find it then I will see if I can rally support against the doctrine.
post #303 of 380
10/13/03 at 11:21am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
Ok. Please point me to the official Catholic Doctrine that outlines that condoms do not prevent AIDS. If you can find it then I will see if I can rally support against the doctrine.

Sure thing.

"The president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo (said): "The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom.""

Link.
meh
meh
post #304 of 380
10/13/03 at 11:25am
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
Sure thing.

"The president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo (said): "The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom.""

Link.

I suppose I meant the research itself. Its going to be kind of hard to refute something without seeing it.
post #305 of 380
10/13/03 at 11:29am
I can't believe you people are dopey enough to think:

"The programme includes a Catholic nun advising her HIV-infected choir master not to use condoms with his wife because "the virus can pass through".

means:

A Catholic nun advised her HIV-infected choir master to have sex without a condom.

Thats retarded.
post #306 of 380
10/13/03 at 11:30am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
I suppose I meant the research itself. Its going to be kind of hard to refute something without seeing it.

:jawdroppingrolleyesattheunbelievablecheek:

I showed you the doctrine. Will you gather support against it?
meh
meh
post #307 of 380
10/13/03 at 11:34am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
Especially when you want to be a sexual deviant.

Jukebox- you're certianly taking some ad hominem attacks here yourself, but language like this is clearly meant to provoke. Could everyone try to be a little more civil before this thread flames out.

I'm still trying to get an answer to my question. How exactly does the catholic church determine that someone is a homosexual? Specifically, how would they judge one of the individuals I refered to who was born with indeterminate genitalia?
--
"Evolution is not random. Mutation is random, but natural selection is entirely non-random. Evolution doesn't predict that all the complexity of life just came together randomly. Claiming...
--
"Evolution is not random. Mutation is random, but natural selection is entirely non-random. Evolution doesn't predict that all the complexity of life just came together randomly. Claiming...
post #308 of 380
10/13/03 at 11:35am
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
:jawdroppingrolleyesattheunbelievablecheek:

I showed you the doctrine. Will you gather support against it?

I had no idea that the BBC was an official governing body of the Catholic Church.. Incredible.
post #309 of 380
10/13/03 at 11:38am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
I suppose I meant the research itself. Its going to be kind of hard to refute something without seeing it.

Yet you blindly place all of your trust in collection of fables.
"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
post #310 of 380
10/13/03 at 11:38am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
I had no idea that the BBC was an official governing body of the Catholic Church.. Incredible.

Can you guess the name of the boss of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo?

Does he work for the BBC or does he work for the Catholic Church?

Whose opinion was he voicing, the BBC's or the Church?

Will you gather support against this doctrine?
meh
meh
post #311 of 380
10/13/03 at 11:39am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
I had no idea that the BBC was an official governing body of the Catholic Church.. Incredible.

So, is it only true if it comes out in The Osservatore Romano?
"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
post #312 of 380
10/13/03 at 12:07pm
Quote:
Originally posted by audiopollution
Yet you blindly place all of your trust in collection of fables.

After spending more than a year (full time endeavor) trying to disprove anything the Catholic Church has to say, I now accept what they say without question.
post #313 of 380
10/13/03 at 12:08pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
Can you guess the name of the boss of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo?

Does he work for the BBC or does he work for the Catholic Church?

Whose opinion was he voicing, the BBC's or the Church?

Will you gather support against this doctrine?

I have no evidence to fight a one line comment that is more likely to be true than false. I have not yet seen the supporting evidence. Have you?
post #314 of 380
10/13/03 at 12:10pm
Quote:
Originally posted by audiopollution
So, is it only true if ....


When is the last time you saw a media report with even a shread of truth to it, on any subject? Have you ever had personal experience with the media? If you had, you would not be such a blind fool.
post #315 of 380
10/13/03 at 12:11pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
After spending more than a year (full time endeavor) trying to disprove anything the Catholic Church has to say, I now accept what they say without question.

Do you accept without question that condoms are permeable to the Human Immuno-defficiency Virus?
meh
meh
post #316 of 380
10/13/03 at 12:15pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
I see it the other way around. Brothel usage dropped because permscuity became a widespread phenomenon that made brothels unnecessary.

Show it. But you can't. And if you're correct, the spread of AIDS was still reduced. Pick your poison.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
post #317 of 380
10/13/03 at 12:21pm
Jukebox? Helllooooo? Still waiting for an answer to my question.

Seems like a pretty basic question if you ask me. I mean, given the hell-fire consequences of homosexuality (according to the catholic church) you'd think they'd have a pretty solid definition.
--
"Evolution is not random. Mutation is random, but natural selection is entirely non-random. Evolution doesn't predict that all the complexity of life just came together randomly. Claiming...
--
"Evolution is not random. Mutation is random, but natural selection is entirely non-random. Evolution doesn't predict that all the complexity of life just came together randomly. Claiming...
post #318 of 380
10/13/03 at 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
When is the last time you saw a media report with even a shread of truth to it, on any subject? Have you ever had personal experience with the media? If you had, you would not be such a blind fool.

Excellent! Thanks for showing me that you don't in fact "accept what they say without question". If there is an inherent mistruth to every media report, obviously The Osservatore Romano isn't such a reliable source of news - and it's coming from the proverbial horses mouth.

Oh, wait, do you mean that only those media reports which don't originate from the Vatican are full of mistruths? Silly me.

"Blind fool"! That's great coming from someone who claims to believe everything the Catholic Church tells him.
"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
"Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell
post #319 of 380
10/13/03 at 5:28pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
If the Catholic Church says it, then I'm am supporting it.

Do you not have any ability to make decisions for yourself?

Do you accept whatever the Catholic Church says 100%?

Or are you more intelligent than that, and capable of deciding for yourself what you choose to believe?

If everyone blindly followed the Church we would still believe the world was flat.
post #320 of 380
10/13/03 at 5:42pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Nordstrodamus
Jukebox- you're certianly taking some ad hominem attacks here yourself, but language like this is clearly meant to provoke. Could everyone try to be a little more civil before this thread flames out.

He deserved it and ya'll know it.

Quote:

I'm still trying to get an answer to my question. How exactly does the catholic church determine that someone is a homosexual? Specifically, how would they judge one of the individuals I refered to who was born with indeterminate genitalia?

The Catholic Church does not care if someone is homosexual. There is no examination that one must take to enter the church. There are merely the words of God and if you believe them you follow them and if you don't, you don't. So, for example, if you're a homosexual, you will be treated like everybody else. If you decide to challenge God's word, it is likely that the members of the church will come out against you. Its that simple. In the case where the doctor chops off the wrong set of genitalia and the child grows up to be gay, then its a tragedy proportionate to all other tragedy's that affect the core of one's lifestyle. But to then say its okay to treat sex as a mere means to pleasure is against His word.
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