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Vatican: condoms don't stop Aids - Page 9  

post #321 of 380
10/13/03 at 5:47pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
Can you guess the name of the boss of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo?

Does he work for the BBC or does he work for the Catholic Church?

Whose opinion was he voicing, the BBC's or the Church?

Will you gather support against this doctrine?

Somehow I doubt he just made it up off the top of his head. I want to see the scientific research that went into that statement. I want to see notes, "I added 4 micro-grams of iodine to a saleen solution and the we repeated 650 times..." If I find that they are lying after researching the true document, and not some shock-doc designed to get viewership on BBC, I will most certainly try to gather support to discredit and reprimand all involved.
post #322 of 380
10/13/03 at 6:07pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
to a saleen solution

he he

How does he get that Automobile manfucaturer, Saleen, to make a solution, anyway?

I will not try to read any of the posts, but first and foremost the church teaches abstinence outside of marriage. Except for unfortunate incidents, that is a good way to stay as far away as one can to developing AIDS.
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post #323 of 380
10/13/03 at 6:09pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
Somehow I doubt he just made it up off the top of his head. I want to see the scientific research that went into that statement. I want to see notes, "I added 4 micro-grams of iodine to a saleen solution and the we repeated 650 times..." If I find that they are lying after researching the true document, and not some shock-doc designed to get viewership on BBC, I will most certainly try to gather support to discredit and reprimand all involved.

This is ridiculous. The AMA says condoms help prevent AIDS. The Surgeon General says condoms help prevent AIDS. A bishop with an obvious agenda says condoms have no effect against the AIDS virus. Who do you believe?

And you want to see the research, otherwise you won't believe it?

This is stupidity at its most incredible level.

I'm starting to think you are trolling.
post #324 of 380
10/13/03 at 6:18pm
Quote:
Do you accept without question that condoms are permeable to the Human Immuno-defficiency Virus?

that's basically true, although misleading. i'll have to find the exact figures. the initial studies done were w/regards to latex gloves, not condoms.

hmm, mixed boat.

Quote:
They found that, in 10 trials per brand, brands ranked high on their airburst test did block HIV, whereas some of those ranked low on their airburst test did not block HIV.
post #325 of 380
10/13/03 at 6:27pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by tonton
This is ridiculous. The AMA says condoms help prevent AIDS. The Surgeon General says condoms help prevent AIDS. A bishop with an obvious agenda says condoms have no effect against the AIDS virus. Who do you believe?

And you want to see the research, otherwise you won't believe it?

This is stupidity at its most incredible level.

I'm starting to think you are trolling.

After his last post, I'm sure of it.
post #326 of 380
10/13/03 at 6:42pm
I'm still looking for an official report. All I can find are links to news reports with no references back to the original source. I have a feeling this means the documents do not yet exist in english. I will probably send an email to the Pontifical Council for the family when I have a free moment. I'll let you know what I find.
post #327 of 380
10/13/03 at 6:46pm
Quote:
Originally posted by murbot
After his last post, I'm sure of it.

These folks are criticized no matter what they say so you can bet they have plenty to back up their statement. An anti-Catholic news blurb is hardly scientific.
post #328 of 380
10/13/03 at 7:53pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
He deserved it and ya'll know it.

Again, I hope your children are all gay.

Quote:
But to then say its okay to treat sex as a mere means to pleasure is against His word. [/B]

Who's talking about treating sex as a mere means to pleasure? Sex is the ultimate expression of intimacy and love.
post #329 of 380
10/13/03 at 7:54pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
Especially when you want to be a sexual deviant.

There's nothing inherently immoral about deviating from the statistical norm. Just ask left handed people.
post #330 of 380
10/13/03 at 8:13pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
These folks are criticized no matter what they say so you can bet they have plenty to back up their statement. An anti-Catholic news blurb is hardly scientific.

I've asked you to post some scientific evidence to support your claim.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
post #331 of 380
10/13/03 at 8:24pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
In the case where the doctor chops off the wrong set of genitalia and the child grows up to be gay, then its a tragedy proportionate to all other tragedy's that affect the core of one's lifestyle. But to then say its okay to treat sex as a mere means to pleasure is against His word.

Ok let me understand this, in the case of indeterminate genitalia you are conceding that the doctor could make the wrong decision about a human being's true sexuality, but nevertheless if the person decided to follow the direction of their true sexuality they would in fact be gay?

By this reasoning if you were kidnapped by a band of crazy doctors who gave you a sex change and then you escaped and returned to your wife, you would be commiting a sin by having sex with her? Is that correct?

Furthermore, is it a sin for an infertile married couple to have sex or a post-menopausal married woman? If you think so I believe your out of step with the catholic church.
--
"Evolution is not random. Mutation is random, but natural selection is entirely non-random. Evolution doesn't predict that all the complexity of life just came together randomly. Claiming...
--
"Evolution is not random. Mutation is random, but natural selection is entirely non-random. Evolution doesn't predict that all the complexity of life just came together randomly. Claiming...
post #332 of 380
10/13/03 at 9:00pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
These folks are criticized no matter what they say so you can bet they have plenty to back up their statement. An anti-Catholic news blurb is hardly scientific.

And you are hardly worth the effort given by our members to reason with you. If I am not mistaken, one of the replies in your formidable arsenal of logic includes what can be best described as... "I know you are, but what am I." You know, if you say that with a bit of Shakespearean flair, it even sounds kind of legitimate.
post #333 of 380
10/13/03 at 11:06pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
Your biggotry is nothing short of astounding.

Bigotry and no. Those who wish to believe in fairy tales aren't the most logical breed. I'm not surprised that an illogical person such as yourself confuses correlation with causation.

Of course, you didn't respond on point to the rebuttal of your convenient little misuse of terms. Instead you called me a bigot and ignored it.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
post #334 of 380
10/14/03 at 7:21am
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
I've asked you to post some scientific evidence to support your claim.

You are the one making the startling claim that someone falsified their research. The onus is on you to prove that claim, not me.
post #335 of 380
10/14/03 at 7:25am
Quote:
Originally posted by Nordstrodamus
Ok let me understand this, in the case of indeterminate genitalia you are conceding that the doctor could make the wrong decision about a human being's true sexuality, but nevertheless if the person decided to follow the direction of their true sexuality they would in fact be gay?

By this reasoning if you were kidnapped by a band of crazy doctors who gave you a sex change and then you escaped and returned to your wife, you would be commiting a sin by having sex with her? Is that correct?

I see your point. This was another man's mistake. But there is nothing new about a victim suffering for the sins of another person.

Quote:

Furthermore, is it a sin for an infertile married couple to have sex or a post-menopausal married woman? If you think so I believe your out of step with the catholic church.

No. In this case it is God's will to not have children.
post #336 of 380
10/14/03 at 7:27am
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
And you are hardly worth the effort given by our members to reason with you. If I am not mistaken, one of the replies in your formidable arsenal of logic includes what can be best described as... "I know you are, but what am I." You know, if you say that with a bit of Shakespearean flair, it even sounds kind of legitimate.

I don't believe I did that. But I am guilty of responding in kind with the response given to me. You treat me badly, I give you a taste of your own medicine. You can dish it but you can't take it, fine.
post #337 of 380
10/14/03 at 7:34am
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
Bigotry and no. Those who wish to believe in fairy tales aren't the most logical breed. I'm not surprised that an illogical person such as yourself confuses correlation with causation.

Of course, you didn't respond on point to the rebuttal of your convenient little misuse of terms. Instead you called me a bigot and ignored it.


bigot - One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

There is nothing inherent about Catholicism that would cause someone to hate gays, yet you cast all Catholics as gay haters. There is nothing disprovable or illogical in Catholic doctrine, yet you take a news blurb at face value without any research. I have done virtually no research on the particular issue of "holes in condoms", but I have done extensive research on numerous other Catholic doctrines and I find them to be a credible source. If you find Catholicism illogical it is because you haven't taken the time to really understand the point of view.

As for the misues of terms - as I recall it was a symantec game. Ok, great. I misued a term. Or maybe I didn't. Who cares?
post #338 of 380
10/14/03 at 8:21am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
bigot - One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

There is nothing inherent about Catholicism that would cause someone to hate gays, yet you cast all Catholics as gay haters. There is nothing disprovable or illogical in Catholic doctrine, yet you take a news blurb at face value without any research. I have done virtually no research on the particular issue of "holes in condoms", but I have done extensive research on numerous other Catholic doctrines and I find them to be a credible source. If you find Catholicism illogical it is because you haven't taken the time to really understand the point of view.

As for the misues of terms - as I recall it was a symantec game. Ok, great. I misued a term. Or maybe I didn't. Who cares?

semantic
meh
meh
post #339 of 380
10/14/03 at 8:21am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
I see your point. This was another man's mistake. But there is nothing new about a victim suffering for the sins of another person.

You lost me a bit here? Are you answering yes, it is a sin to have sex in either of the examples I mentioned (someone with indeterminate genitalia being "corrected" to the "wrong" sex or you after being forced to have a sex change operation)? It sounds like your saying yes it's still a sin even though someone else imposed this on them/you.
Quote:

No. In this case it is God's will to not have children.

Clearly most birth defects fall under "God's will" so the indeterminate genitalia qualify. If you concede it's ok for an infertile couple to have sex then why is it not ok for those with indeterminate genetalia?
--
"Evolution is not random. Mutation is random, but natural selection is entirely non-random. Evolution doesn't predict that all the complexity of life just came together randomly. Claiming...
--
"Evolution is not random. Mutation is random, but natural selection is entirely non-random. Evolution doesn't predict that all the complexity of life just came together randomly. Claiming...
post #340 of 380
10/14/03 at 8:23am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
I see your point. This was another man's mistake. But there is nothing new about a victim suffering for the sins of another person.



No. In this case it is God's will to not have children.


Eight die in church bus crash in Louisiana

I guess it was god's will that several kids had seen enough of their grandparents.

"It was god's will, Johnny."

"What do you mean?"

"Well, god decided it was time to kill Grandma and Grandpa. You'll see them in 50 years though, as long as you don't use condoms."
post #341 of 380
10/14/03 at 8:27am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
There is nothing disprovable or illogical in Catholic doctrine,

Like the earth being the center of the universe? They nearly burned a guy, forced him to backtrack on a perfectly valid claim - but I guess that was not doctrine, because most likely no papal correspondence on the matter will ever surface.
It's so easy with you religious types: everything not disproven is true. If it is disproven, it was not doctrine, but a mere mortal who made an error. This way, it is completely impossible to prove you wrong.

Someone kills a gay? Hey, it's in the bible. State says killing gays is no longer a thing they'll let you get away with? No problem, it was in the old testament, we have version 2.0 now. State gives gays the right to marry? Church still cries foul murder (happened over here in Germany - good thing we have a leftist government that did not falter). Of course the sneaky bastards will not let gays live their life and admit they have been murderously wrong for a couple of centuries, oh no. Still trying to block the road to progress by every means they have.
post #342 of 380
10/14/03 at 8:31am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
No. In this case it is God's will to not have children. [/B]

It's His will to blight my existence and my marriage? As I don't believe in Him but until now was polite to his followers , may i say **** you. You sir, are a git.
" I'll never get back the time i just wasted reading that post." Miami Craig
" It's like you've achieved some kind of irrelevance zen, or something." johnsonwax
" I'll never get back the time i just wasted reading that post." Miami Craig
" It's like you've achieved some kind of irrelevance zen, or something." johnsonwax
post #343 of 380
10/14/03 at 8:46am
Quote:
Originally posted by Alex London
It's His will to blight my existence and my marriage? As I don't believe in Him but until now was polite to his followers , may i say **** you. You sir, are a git.

Legitimate or not, personal attacks are not allowed on these board.

Perhaps it's time to consider a lock for this thread.
post #344 of 380
10/14/03 at 8:55am
I've had to take a lot of insensitive ,ignorant and hurtful remarks on the chin in my time but i responded to jukebox heroes post angrily, so i apologise if it broke the rules.
" I'll never get back the time i just wasted reading that post." Miami Craig
" It's like you've achieved some kind of irrelevance zen, or something." johnsonwax
" I'll never get back the time i just wasted reading that post." Miami Craig
" It's like you've achieved some kind of irrelevance zen, or something." johnsonwax
post #345 of 380
10/14/03 at 8:58am
Quote:
Originally posted by Nordstrodamus
You lost me a bit here? Are you answering yes, it is a sin to have sex in either of the examples I mentioned (someone with indeterminate genitalia being "corrected" to the "wrong" sex or you after being forced to have a sex change operation)? It sounds like your saying yes it's still a sin even though someone else imposed this on them/you.

I am saying its a sin. So if crazy doctors try to take you, you should fight really hard.

Quote:

Clearly most birth defects fall under "God's will" so the indeterminate genitalia qualify. If you concede it's ok for an infertile couple to have sex then why is it not ok for those with indeterminate genetalia?

Good point. I'm guessing God would forgive you.
post #346 of 380
10/14/03 at 8:59am
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
semantic

No, I meant the company.
post #347 of 380
10/14/03 at 9:00am
Quote:
Originally posted by murbot
Eight die in church bus crash in Louisiana

I guess it was god's will that several kids had seen enough of their grandparents.

"It was god's will, Johnny."

"What do you mean?"

"Well, god decided it was time to kill Grandma and Grandpa. You'll see them in 50 years though, as long as you don't use condoms."

Yes it was his will. God gives and God takes away. In this case the kids just got to go to the next stage of life a little early. What does this have to do with holes in condoms?
post #348 of 380
10/14/03 at 9:02am
Quote:
Originally posted by Alex London
It's His will to blight my existence and my marriage? As I don't believe in Him but until now was polite to his followers , may i say **** you. You sir, are a git.

God did not make this life to be easy. If he did it would be. But you, sir, are a spoiled little baby. If you can't have it your way you have to wine and cry. Boo hoo.
post #349 of 380
10/14/03 at 9:08am
Quote:
God did not make this life to be easy.

Again, Ra, the sun god, did not make this life easy....

You are starting to make him mad. Expect 90+ degree weather in your town today...
post #350 of 380
10/14/03 at 9:18am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
Yes it was his will. God gives and God takes away. In this case the kids just got to go to the next stage of life a little early. What does this have to do with holes in condoms?

Joke. Use condoms, go to hell.

Nevermind.

Keep On Trollin'
post #351 of 380
10/14/03 at 9:23am
Its not like I'm forcing anybody to do anything. Everybody has free will to make their own choices. I'm an enemy of any man that tries to take away that right. You choose to live your life the way you choose. You want to use condoms or artificial incemination, I DON'T CARE. THATS YOUR CHOICE. I don't judge. I've been on all sides of the issues. I've just become convinced that Catholicism is the truth. So what? What does it have to do with you? Why are you people so interested in my personal choices? Why are you tring to say I don't have the right to my own choices? It doesn't even affect you. Arguing that supporting the Catholic Church is affecting you is completely irrational. People are going to be mean and biggoted and evil regardless of their religious/political/ethnic background. Kill Catholics and you'll just have someone else to blame and hate. Thats the way people are. I'm just trying to live my life the best way that I know how. But thanks to you all I have learned one thing. People are wierder and dumber than I ever thought possible. You've all convinced me to go buy a Gun.

What is wrong with you people?
post #352 of 380
10/14/03 at 9:28am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
I am saying its a sin. So if crazy doctors try to take you, you should fight really hard.

And with regards to people with indeterminate genitalia having sex...
Quote:

Good point. I'm guessing God would forgive you.

Now I'm really lost. In the first part you suggest that people with indeterminant genetalia who were improperly corrected cannot have sex without it being a sin. In the second part you suggest that it wouldn't be because God made them with indeterminate sex.

Since you also suggest that a forced sex change would prohibit you from having sex with your wife (without it being a sin) it would seem that you believe that man actually has the power to change one's true sexuality, by altering their physical appearance. Is this correct?

I assume that your ok with these same unfortunate people (the miscorrected people with indeterminate genitalia) undergoing further surgery to change their sex back to their "correct" sex?
--
"Evolution is not random. Mutation is random, but natural selection is entirely non-random. Evolution doesn't predict that all the complexity of life just came together randomly. Claiming...
--
"Evolution is not random. Mutation is random, but natural selection is entirely non-random. Evolution doesn't predict that all the complexity of life just came together randomly. Claiming...
post #353 of 380
10/14/03 at 9:30am
Quote:
Originally posted by Nordstrodamus
And with regards to people with indeterminate genitalia having sex...


Now I'm really lost. In the first part you suggest that people with indeterminant genetalia who were improperly corrected cannot have sex without it being a sin. In the second part you suggest that it wouldn't be because God made them with indeterminate sex.

Since you also suggest that a forced sex change would prohibit you from having sex with your wife (without it being a sin) it would seem that you believe that man actually has the power to change one's true sexuality, by altering their physical appearance. Is this correct?

I assume that your ok with these same unfortunate people (the miscorrected people with indeterminate genitalia) undergoing further surgery to change their sex back to their "correct" sex?


Retard, I follow the church. But if you are asking me my opinion I believe that God would forgive. There is no incongruency between saying "I wouldn't do it" and saying "I can understand why someone would and don't personally see the problem."
post #354 of 380
10/14/03 at 9:34am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
You've all convinced me to go buy a Gun.

Like when you got convinced about Catholicism - maybe the problem here is how easy you are convinced...

...at least guns kill less people though....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
post #355 of 380
10/14/03 at 9:36am
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Like when you got convinced about Catholicism - maybe the problem here is how easy you are convinced...

...at least guns kill less people though....

Dear flippant moron,

No. Stupid people kill people. The fact that some of them happen to be Catholic is irrelevent. People are stupid and evil, yourself included. Thats why you should pray to God.
post #356 of 380
10/14/03 at 9:37am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
God did not make this life to be easy. If he did it would be. But you, sir, are a spoiled little baby. If you can't have it your way you have to wine and cry. Boo hoo.

Wow, such compassion for your fellow man, I'm touched. Silly me, whining and crying when as I'm actually living God's will, i should be happy. You're my hero, the way you don't judge and all, it's so hard sometimes, isn't it?
" I'll never get back the time i just wasted reading that post." Miami Craig
" It's like you've achieved some kind of irrelevance zen, or something." johnsonwax
" I'll never get back the time i just wasted reading that post." Miami Craig
" It's like you've achieved some kind of irrelevance zen, or something." johnsonwax
post #357 of 380
10/14/03 at 9:38am
Quote:
Originally posted by Alex London
Wow, such compassion for your fellow man, I'm touched. Silly me, whining and crying when as I'm actually living God's will, i should be happy. You're my hero, the way you don't judge and all, it's so hard sometimes, isn't it?

You treated me like shit, asshole. SO I treated you the same way. You clueless ****!
post #358 of 380
10/14/03 at 9:38am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
It doesn't even affect you. Arguing that supporting the Catholic Church is affecting you is completely irrational.

But it does. Unfortunately, the RC church has a lot of worldish power, else the whole discussion would not have taken place. Unfortunately too, it is known to abuse this power to coerce people who live according to a different set of rules. Supporting an unethical organization is unethical, that's all. (not to self: donate to some islamic fundamentalists)

Quote:
You've all convinced me to go buy a Gun.

Because people disagree with you?
post #359 of 380
10/14/03 at 9:41am
Quote:
Originally posted by Smircle
But it does. Unfortunately, the RC church has a lot of worldish power, else the whole discussion would not have taken place. Unfortunately too, it is known to abuse this power to coerce people who live according to a different set of rules. Supporting an unethical organization is unethical, that's all. (not to self: donate to some islamic
fundamentalists)

Some people are untehical, not the organization. Get that through your thick, useless skull.

Quote:

Because people disagree with you?

I don't care until you try to take away my rights. Then I cry fowl.
post #360 of 380
10/14/03 at 9:41am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
Dear flippant moron,

No. Stupid people kill people. The fact that some of them happen to be Catholic is irrelevent. People are stupid and evil, yourself included. Thats why you should pray to God.

You mean your God - the one created in your image.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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