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Mozilla 1.5 versus Safari

post #1 of 43
Thread Starter 
I am trying Mozilla and I think Mozilla feels faster than Safari. Safari will do this weird thing where it will load everything and than re-align the page afterwards. Mozilla will display it instantly.

I also installed Broadband Optomizer and my connection went up from a 1.1 megabit to a 1.2 megabit. Feels snappier overall.


What do you guys feel about Mozilla 1.5?
post #2 of 43
What do I feel about Mozilla?

Sure it's fast, but it's no Mac OS X app by any definition. Yes, it runs on Mac OS X, but the whole thing still looks, feels, and acts like a kludgy Linux/Windows port to me. Oh, wait, that's what it is.

And what's with Mozilla STILL creating some bizarre small window titled "hidden" upon startup? Sure, since version 1.0 (i think) it was placed off-screen, but with Exposé it's rearing its ugly head again. Dare I say, "WTF"?
post #3 of 43
Thread Starter 
I think the modern theme is descent though. Not that bad. Any luck with firebird? What's the difference?
post #4 of 43
When are the developers going to get it? Their whole thing with trying to subvert the native OS GUI is a dumb idea. Mozilla internally is getting better, really becoming a good product. But the GUI is so bad I only use Mozilla as a backup. If it was as good or even close to Safari I'd switch every now and then because it usually renders better and quicker. It is just so ugly. No matter what the platform. Linuxheads need to "get" the GUI and especially the philosophy of KISS and ease-of-use. The other issue is RAM usage. Mozilla is bloated. They are going to separate the parts soon but this is long overdue.
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post #5 of 43
"When are the developers going to get it? Their whole thing with trying to subvert the native OS GUI is a dumb idea."

Maybe someone should tell Apple this about their port of iTunes.
post #6 of 43
Quote:
Originally posted by Aquatic
Their whole thing with trying to subvert the native OS GUI is a dumb idea.

They're not trying to subvert it, they're just failing to emulate it very well, basically because Mac OS X's interface is far more advanced than others out there.

One of the main goals of Mozilla Firebird was to make it more native on XP. I think it uses some kind of built-in (to windows that is) themeing and has finally got around to implementing lots of really obscure windows shortcuts.

You can tell that Mozilla is trying given the drop down sheets, preferences, menu bar at the top etc. It's just a pretty damn hard task given their desire to use the same codebase on multiple platforms.

One of the main Firebird developers just got a dual G5, and intends to sort out some issues on the Mac, unfortunately (well, it depends how you look at it) I think he means basic underlying technology rather than the GUI

Finally, I note that Camino doesn't even seem to rate a mention anymore. Why's that? It's got the gui and the rendering.
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post #7 of 43
Firebird (with the latest beta Pinstripe theme) has just displaced poor Camino has my alternative browser. ...you know, for those times when Safari just isn't quite working right.

Firebird is improving on OS X by leaps and bounds. Latest version (again, with Pinstripe) is quite fast and practically looking like a real, bona fide OS X app.
post #8 of 43
Will we see a new 1.1 version of Safari in Panther? How sick and tired I am of having to use multible browsers
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post #9 of 43
Safari in Panther is 1.1 (v100). But I haven't really noticed any differences between it and Safari in Jaguar.
post #10 of 43
Safari 1.1 is pretty much a bug fix version for compatiblity, stability etc
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post #11 of 43
Mozilla was always supposed to be a proof of concept product. They had this great idea many years ago to start the Mozilla project and build an open source web browser. When you actually download and run Mozilla, you're using that proof of concept chunk of code; that is to say, "Here is a product that does everything we promised. Take a look at the source, take a look at the binary. This is what it does, feel free to exploit that."

As such, Mozilla was never polished from a UI standpoint. The user experience counts for a lot, I might add. But where the Mozilla project really shines is in the browsers like Camino. These are browsers that are derived from Mozilla, and are no longer proof of concepts, rather they are actual functioning, polished chunks of code.

I find it amusing that anyone could stomach using Mozilla; the user experience is just plain awful. I can see why the linux geeks like it though...
post #12 of 43
Where can one find this pinstripe theme for Mozilla Firebird for OS X?
post #13 of 43
Does Safari 1.1 finally let you UNDO typing?
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"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
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post #14 of 43
Quote:
Originally posted by Aquatic
When are the developers going to get it? Their whole thing with trying to subvert the native OS GUI is a dumb idea.

As a developer it makes a whole lot of sense to develop something that can be used by everybody, today and tomorrow, rather than focusing on a subset and developing for a platform that may or may not be here tomorrow. Before I get all flamed, remember that Apple is on (at least) its fourth API since inception of the company (II, mac, mac PPC, OSX). Windows is just as bad. Developers are sick of it.
post #15 of 43
Mozilla is my main browser... BUT
I would not use it without Pinstripe Theme.
(That's actually why I haven't upgraded past 1.4, yet) \
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post #16 of 43
Mozilla browsers, especially Mozilla itself, are about on par with rendering speeds to the naked eye, but remain so klutzy and slow when doing simple basic activities unrelated to the internet. They're also so much HUGER than Safari. Maybe the code could use a revision?
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Computer: Cedric
Specs: eMac, 700MHz PowerPC G4, 384MB of RAM, 40GB HD, CD-RW drive, nVidia GeForce 2 MX, Mac OS X 10.1.5/Mac OS 9.2.2
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post #17 of 43
Camino is great, but it's never updated anymore, besides hte nightlys and those are never that big of updates, just random bug fixes or code experiments or whatever.
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post #18 of 43
Jukebox if you use the native GUI it doesn't matter. The OS handles the GUI. Or if the app needs control then it should look like the OS, like in Office with all the toolbar icons. It's just common sense. iTunes is different, it is trying to SELL MacOS X and iApp ease of use by showcasing a better GUI. Mozilla isn't trying to sell anything, they just want a good end user experience; but they're not going to get a good end user experience with this fugly Netscape 6/7 crap look going on.
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"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
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post #19 of 43
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkland
Where can one find this pinstripe theme for Mozilla Firebird for OS X?

Just google "pinstripe".
post #20 of 43
Quote:
Originally posted by Aquatic
Jukebox if you use the native GUI it doesn't matter. The OS handles the GUI. Or if the app needs control then it should look like the OS, like in Office with all the toolbar icons. It's just common sense. iTunes is different, it is trying to SELL MacOS X and iApp ease of use by showcasing a better GUI. Mozilla isn't trying to sell anything, they just want a good end user experience; but they're not going to get a good end user experience with this fugly Netscape 6/7 crap look going on.

How do you use the native GUI in Java? JNI? That would defeat the purpose of Java. Java developers have three mainstream choices (and probably lots of smaller ones); AWT, Swing, and SWT. AWT will look native, but has traditionally been buggy and lacking in features. Swing is slightly less buggy, has more features, but does not look like the native OS (this is what your complaining about). SWT is newer, but is supposed to be a hybrid of AWT and Swing.. Supposedly it uses native components where it can, and augments them with lightweight components where it has to. I'm going to try this soon.
post #21 of 43
I'm still using camino, its a great app and the fastest browser out there for OS X IMO. Firebird seemed on par in terms of speed, but until other os X browsers can use the keychain as well as camino does, i'm sticking with Camino. Its use of the keychain is, by far its best feature.

I wish they would update it more, or has development stopped?
post #22 of 43
Quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo
I wish they would update it more, or has development stopped?

Browse through Pinkerton's old blogs and you may find some tidbits...

Quote:
Initially, Camino (then Chimera) did release early and often and it garnered a loyal following who couldn't wait to get their hands on the next release. The problem stems from our own success. Camino 0.7 was so stable and polished that people came to treat it as they would a 1.0 product. Releasing another version of lesser quality would be seen as a black-eye to the project as a whole, that quality was slipping, and what once was a promising product was now beginning to collapse under its own weight.

Quote:
What we haven't done lately is communicate, to be open and slutty with our direction. We haven't done a good job promoting Camino since 0.7 shipped. That's where we can take a cue from the Firebird Browser team. A roadmap is needed, as is a "Why Use Camino Over Safari?" webpage. We need to get people interested again. Will 0.7.5 help that? Maybe it would, but it could be equally as dangerous.

Right now it seems we're stuck in a catch-22: we can't gather developer interest without shipping a version and we can't ship a version without developer interest. We're triaging bugs because being able to point developers to a single list that we can drive to zarro boogs is, in my opinion, the best way to engage the development community, and what this project has been lacking since AOL began to fund its development. Now that AOL has fully withdrawn all support (even for Gecko itself), we need developers more than ever. I understand that the end-users on the various lists don't give a donkey about bug triage, they simply want new bits to play with. I just don't think we can get them bits without focused development.
post #23 of 43
well, today i switched to firebird and thunderbird as my main browser and e-mail client on os x. i guess i was tired of some minor quirks with safari and mail.crap. yeah they look linux like but more important to me is reliability. it will take a little getting used to but so far i am very pleased.
post #24 of 43
Jukebox what are you talking about? Mozilla isn't a Java app and Java sucks all around.
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"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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post #25 of 43
The only browser that looks good in OS X is Safari with IE a distant second. Omniweb is ok but feels alien and development is lagging. People do not pay for browsers if they can get them for free. We have Microsoft to thank for that as usual.
"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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"Overpopulation and climate change are serious shit." Gilsch
"I was really curious how they had managed such fine granularity of alienation." addabox
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post #26 of 43
Quote:
Originally posted by Aquatic
Jukebox what are you talking about? Mozilla isn't a Java app and Java sucks all around.

Really? Well then I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. Why, then, does the Mozilla GUI suck so bad if its not Java? haha..

Don't tell me Java sucks. I have to use Java or .net to be a professional programmer... So you're saying I should switch to .net?
post #27 of 43
Mozilla rules. I advocate it and use it on all my computers. It is the fastest most feature laden browser going. I also can't stand having the search feature available without keyboard shortcuts. In Mozilla I set the search for Google, then hit Apple L and enter my terms as if they were a url. Instead of hitting return I just hit the down arrow key and then return. Now I am searching at Google with no need to do some mousing around. I can't live without that it is just too convenient.

Nick

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post #28 of 43
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Now I am searching at Google with no need to do some mousing around. I can't live without that it is just too convenient.


Huh? Your directions make me queasy. Searching with Google in Safari is as easy as pressing tab twice, entering a search term and hitting return. I wonder what's incovenient about that.

(things are simpler still when you're in the URL field. then it's just one tab, and if you want a new tab or window, you can do that to: apple+t or apple+n, one tab, search term, enter).
post #29 of 43
I've switched to using Safari over Mozilla on my Macs, but I really miss the little button that Mozilla has for creating new tabs.
post #30 of 43
Control-T or Apple-T Cake

By the way, Safari uses tab shortcuts that mozilla and opera had long ago.
post #31 of 43
Quote:
Originally posted by der Kopf
Huh? Your directions make me queasy. Searching with Google in Safari is as easy as pressing tab twice, entering a search term and hitting return. I wonder what's incovenient about that.

(things are simpler still when you're in the URL field. then it's just one tab, and if you want a new tab or window, you can do that to: apple+t or apple+n, one tab, search term, enter).

Or just hit option-command-F, which takes you right to Safari's Google field.
post #32 of 43
Quote:
Originally posted by Curufinwe
Control-T or Apple-T Cake

By the way, Safari uses tab shortcuts that mozilla and opera had long ago.

Maybe I should've explained more.
I realize that Command-T make a new tab, but it's easier (for me) just to mouse over to the little button in Mozilla to create a tab as opposed to taking the keyboard typing route.
post #33 of 43
I'm using Mozilla as well and I think that it is fine. It certainly is fast and is compliant with just about every site. I would prefer the browser to be Aqua-fied, but I suppose that using Camino would provide that. I have not actually tried Camino yet, however, as it is not yet at 1.0 and I do not consider myself enough of a computer-guy to work with betas. (Idiot question: is Camino, in a sense, an Aqua-fied version of a Mozilla base??)

I did try Safari recently, but it did too many strange things on my machine. I'll try it again after its next release.
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post #34 of 43
Quote:
Originally posted by Chinney
(Idiot question: is Camino, in a sense, an Aqua-fied version of a Mozilla base??)

Yes, it is Mozilla's display engine grafted to a native interface. The window toolbars and preferences are native Cocoa goodness. The core display, however, is entirely Mozilla code and still lacks things like full service support. Also, elements like buttons and popup menus within pages still do not draw properly much of the time. It's getting better, though.
Quote:
I did try Safari recently, but it did too many strange things on my machine.

What kind of strange things you experienced? Safari shouldn't be causing problems in any other apps.
post #35 of 43
awrite i am really loving firebird and thunderbird - especially thunderbird - way better than apple mail. try it for a couple days and you'll see - especially if you have multiple imap accounts. junk trains way faster in thunderbird than with apple mail. mails mime attachements not apple double (win users hate that extra resource fork file). when you send with an account it automatically picks the smtp server you specify in prefs not some random one. searching is better, filtering (rules) are very nice. seems much faster than mail to me. its just a really well thought out program with many excellent features if you take the time to go through all the prefs and settings.

back to firebird - also rock solid with great rendering of web pages. nice bookmark manager akin to safari and again seems faster to me. if you hate brushed metal you will love firebird.
post #36 of 43
Quote:
Originally posted by der Kopf
Huh? Your directions make me queasy. Searching with Google in Safari is as easy as pressing tab twice, entering a search term and hitting return. I wonder what's incovenient about that.

(things are simpler still when you're in the URL field. then it's just one tab, and if you want a new tab or window, you can do that to: apple+t or apple+n, one tab, search term, enter).

I don't have a Mac at hand now, but doesn't Safari support keyboard browsing so that tab jumps to next link? This is what Mozilla and the rest do, and if the feature is in Safari and is enabled, the result is that you'd usually have to tab a long way to get to the location bar, and therefore you're better off with just pressing Apple-L.

I use Mozilla. There's very little it won't do, and AFAIK the only "problem" with the interface is that it doesn't have eye candy...

Okay, I'd like one more feature, and that is: when you spawn a new tab, the new tab should automatically go to your current URL... just like IE does when opening a new window. There's really no advantage to getting an empty tab.
post #37 of 43
Quote:
Originally posted by Brad
What kind of strange things you experienced? Safari shouldn't be causing problems in any other apps.

Actually, Safari 0.9 was the cause of major weirdness in my mother's iBook. I installed both Safari and Mozilla, and as long as Safari was installed, any attempt to place a Mozilla shortcut in the dock and launch it was met by Safari launching itself instead of Mozilla. Uninstalled Safari, tried to install both in another order, same result. As a programmer (no OS X exp though), I don't understand what the programs and OS could have done that would have caused the system to exhibit this behaviour.
post #38 of 43
Quote:
Originally posted by Brad
What kind of strange things you experienced? Safari shouldn't be causing problems in any other apps.

Thanks, Brad, for the clarification on the underpinnings of Mozilla.

Re your question, it is not what Safari did "to my machine" but rather "on my machine". I was talking about the behaviour of the browser itself. It seemed to jump around in a weird way when going back and forth between previous pages. Someone else recently complained about this too. Also, I could not get it to actually accept changes in selected fonts or font sizes, meaning my input fonts were always tiny, such as when posting in AI. Not big things, but I could find no way to correct them and annoying enough that I decided to wait for a new release before trying Safari again. I posted about both of these issues on AI previously.
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post #39 of 43
Quote:
Originally posted by Aquatic
When are the developers going to get it? Their whole thing with trying to subvert the native OS GUI is a dumb idea. Mozilla internally is getting better, really becoming a good product. But the GUI is so bad I only use Mozilla as a backup. If it was as good or even close to Safari I'd switch every now and then because it usually renders better and quicker. It is just so ugly. No matter what the platform. Linuxheads need to "get" the GUI and especially the philosophy of KISS and ease-of-use. The other issue is RAM usage. Mozilla is bloated. They are going to separate the parts soon but this is long overdue.

I use Safari, but I really like Firebird and it's my second favorite browser.
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post #40 of 43
There's supposed to be a special 7.1 bugfix release just for Mac OS X users of Firebird. But the more cautious may want to wait for 8.0 when the Pinstripe theme is set to become the default, as well as having a more Pather friendly look. The designer is also working on a matching theme for Thunderbird.
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