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Microsoft needs .Net for Mac

post #1 of 44
Thread Starter 
This was just a play on the title of another post... But its the honest truth. M$ needs to target the #2 desktop if they want to defeat Java.
post #2 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
This was just a play on the title of another post... But its the honest truth. M$ needs to target the #2 desktop if they want to defeat Java.

No because than developers could easily write software for the Mac. Why would Microsoft want to do this when they can keep .NET on Windows and have millions of developers continue to code for the Windows platform?
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post #3 of 44
When you control Microsoft's share of the market, you can ignore the (distant) #2 platform completely if you'd rather.

The whole reason MS destroyed Netscape, and has tried to destroy Java, is precisely because they offered cross-platform application deployment that mooted the operating system. MS doesn't want Windows to be mooted. So .NET is designed to be a "better Java," and it runs on 90% of the machines out there, which is close enough. Most importantly, it affirms the importance of Windows, and gives Microsoft absolute control. That is the whole point of the exercise.
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post #4 of 44
The point certainly isn't pushing the envelope of language development... :P

The *only* nice new thing I've seen about C# is the delegate keyword. Nice approach to making an implicit ubiquitous construct explicit. Improves comprehension and readability.

Other than that though, .NET is just warmed over tech from other companies and research groups. *shrug*
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post #5 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
The point certainly isn't pushing the envelope of language development... :P

The *only* nice new thing I've seen about C# is the delegate keyword. Nice approach to making an implicit ubiquitous construct explicit. Improves comprehension and readability.

Other than that though, .NET is just warmed over tech from other companies and research groups. *shrug*

You mean you're not totally floored by VB.NET?

C# is actually really nice. We're converting all of our old VB apps to C# at work and it is a big improvement. I haven't worked with C++ or C since College so I can't really compare C# to those. But it stacks up pretty well against Java too.

Basically if you're developing apps for Windows, there's no reason not to swith to .NET/C# it is a much better toolset to work with.
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post #6 of 44
This thread should be titled, "Please, Microsoft! We're begging you! .NET for the Mac!"
post #7 of 44
four more beers, four more beers
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post #8 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by cowerd
Already done--well almost.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/32735.html

Microsoft can kill this at anytime. They have patents on much of the .NET technology and all they have to do is call their lawyers. OR change a great deal of the .NET framework to break MONO from working. \
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post #9 of 44
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
The point certainly isn't pushing the envelope of language development... :P

The *only* nice new thing I've seen about C# is the delegate keyword. Nice approach to making an implicit ubiquitous construct explicit. Improves comprehension and readability.

Other than that though, .NET is just warmed over tech from other companies and research groups. *shrug*

The other nice feature of C# is that you cannot accidentally override a method. To make a method overridable (is that a word?) you have to declare it virtual. This solves lots of issues.



Its hard to argue with .net for GUI development. I just ordered a book on SWT (for Java), so hopefully it will be decent. Supposedly they improved Swing in 1.4.2 as well.

Edit: before I get flamed, I agree whole-heartedly that the Apple GUI is better. But I really cant see myself switching to C++ for general purpose business application development. Theres just too many issues with it.
post #10 of 44
I'm not sure I want a MS framework in OS X. It might bring more inconsistencies between apps than there is now with carbon and cocoa.
post #11 of 44
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
I'm not sure I want a MS framework in OS X. It might bring more inconsistencies between apps than there is now with carbon and cocoa.

It most certainly would. MS will always want to do it their way. So how does one put together a GUI on OSX without resorting to C++?
post #12 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
So how does one put together a GUI on OSX without resorting to C++?

Perhaps I missed a joke here, but just in case:

post #13 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
The other nice feature of C# is that you cannot accidentally override a method. To make a method overridable (is that a word?) you have to declare it virtual. This solves lots of issues.

*twitch*

*twitch*

You realize, of course, that that's exactly *BACKWARDS* of every accepted model of OO on the planet, right?

(Yeah, so is C++.)

Everything is overridable at any time in 'pure' OO... that's what gives it its power and flexibility. Having a library developer say "Oh, oops, sorry, we forgot about that one, you'll have to wait until the next release in six months" because you don't have access to the source code and can't pose a class in its place to work around their screw up is *annoying*. Not a problem in dynamic languages. :P

Just as a curious aside... what issues do you see this solving??
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post #14 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
The other nice feature of C# is that you cannot accidentally override a method.

How do you accidentally override a method, and why isn't the solution to change or delete the offending method?

Quote:
To make a method overridable (is that a word?) you have to declare it virtual. This solves lots of issues.

In other words, you "override" it by punting the definition to subclasses. What does this solve exactly? It sounds like Microsoft has given up on polymorphism, which is one of the bedrock features of object-oriented design.

So C# is an OO language for people who learned block-structured code (or BASIC!) and are confused by all this "object" stuff. Right.

It infuriates me that so many people think that you can design a language by putting lipstick on C++.

Quote:
Its hard to argue with .net for GUI development. I just ordered a book on SWT (for Java), so hopefully it will be decent. Supposedly they improved Swing in 1.4.2 as well.

GUI development has as much to do with the available toolset as anything else. Apple has Interface Builder; Borland did a good job of wrangling good UI tools out of MFC, etc.

Quote:
Edit: before I get flamed, I agree whole-heartedly that the Apple GUI is better. But I really cant see myself switching to C++ for general purpose business application development. Theres just too many issues with it.

I won't disagree, but what are the issues with an OO language that cripples polymorphism?!
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post #15 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by Willoughby
Microsoft can kill this at anytime. They have patents on much of the .NET technology and all they have to do is call their lawyers. OR change a great deal of the .NET framework to break MONO from working. \

From what I've heard, they don't own a few of the major patents for .net
post #16 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
*twitch*

*twitch*

Sounds like MS is doing to application developers with C# what they did to web designers wit IE. Allow bad coding practices and everyone will praise them.

You make a good point... I don't see how that would solve any problems at all. If you don't want it to override the method, why the hell are you declaring it again!? In fact... to me it seems like that would cause more problems than it would solve.
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post #17 of 44
Thread Starter 
I'll have to think of a good example.... If you compile this code, you will quickly find that pure OO is not all its cracked up to be. Without knowing it, a developer can override important functionality that the base class needs to properly function. In C#, the compiler will not allow you to override the method without calling it virtual. It will compile, but the base constructor will call the appropriate method, rather than inadvertantly inheriting from the new class.

Code:


package test;

public class MyBase
{
public MyBase()
{
printMessage();
}
public void printMessage()
{
System.out.println("Base Message");

//critical constructor work being done here
}
}


Now lets say you extend this class as follows:
//--------------------------------------------

package test2;

import test.MyBase;

public class MyExtended extends MyBase
{
public MyExtended()
{
super();
}

public void printMessage()
{
System.out.println("Exteneded Method");

//critical base class constructor work being inadvertantly
//overwritten here with no compiler warnings...
}

public static void main(String args[])
{
MyExtended mi=new MyExtended();
}
}




[edit by Amorph: The code tag is your friend ]
[edit by Jukebox Hero: Tx Amorph. Also, even though it has nothing to do with the point I'm making, I moved MyExtended into another package just so nobody can come back and say, "Why would anybody do that?"]
post #18 of 44
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Brad
Perhaps I missed a joke here, but just in case:


Thanks for the tip, but no thanks for the snotty, greater than thou attitude (Way to bring Windows developers into the fold!!).

I browsed around and found the following link, which describes Apples recommended approach:

http://developer.apple.com/documenta...section_7.html

Heres the exerpt:

Developing a Java Client Application
The essential tasks you need to perform when creating a Java Client application are listed below:

1) Create a model using EOModeler.
2) Create a project using Project Builder.
3) Write source code for enterprise-object classes (if your enterprise objects require custom business logic).
4) Create your applications user interface with Interface Builder (Java Client approach).
5) Customize your applications user interface (Direct to Java Client approach).
6) Write source code for any application-level logic.


//----------------

back to my take:

The problem with this approach is that alot of business application developers have beened burned by C++ application frameworks. C++ adds an entire class of bugs that don't exist in languages such as Java (or as MS calls it; managed languages). For example, I spent about 600 hours on a project that got eventually got canceled because of all the bugs in Borlands Visual Component Library (Sorry for the negative press, Borland. Its been a few years and maybe you've fixed your problems). Sure, tools have gotten better at finding the types of memory bugs that create these hard-to-find, company-destroying bugs. But these same bugs simply do not exist in Java.

So I rephrase my claim to be more specific; I would highly value a framework that was developed on a managed language.
post #19 of 44
May I ask why the critical constructor work isn't being done in the constructor, but in a public method?

This example seems a bit too contrived to be relevant. First of all, since the whole point of polymorphism is to override base class behavior, I don't understand why the compiler should warn you. Second, there's a one-line fix to that issue, if you do want the base class' PrintMessage() to be called: Call it.

This "fix" is for people who don't understand basic OO principles. If I want a sensible default behavior, but different or additional behavior in a few cases, what do I do? Either I paste the default behavior code into every instance of the method, or I stuff it in a helper method and invoke it with a call - but if I'm going to invoke a method, why not super.PrintMessage()?
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post #20 of 44
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Amorph
May I ask why the critical constructor work isn't being done in the constructor, but in a public method?

This example seems a bit too contrived to be relevant. First of all, since the whole point of polymorphism is to override base class behavior, I don't understand why the compiler should warn you. Second, there's a one-line fix to that issue, if you do want the base class' PrintMessage() to be called: Call it.

This "fix" is for people who don't understand basic OO principles. If I want a sensible default behavior, but different or additional behavior in a few cases, what do I do? Either I paste the default behavior code into every instance of the method, or I stuff it in a helper method and invoke it with a call - but if I'm going to invoke a method, why not super.PrintMessage()?


Of course this example is contrived... but now imagine the reverse happening. A developer purchases "Super Duper Framework V1.0" and builds an application on it. Later, "Super Duper Framework V2.0" becomes available. Unfortunately, the application built on SDF1.0 no longer runs on SDF2.0 and nobody knows why. Sorry about your luck. C# fixes a major problem that I have seen happen numerous times in corporate environment.
post #21 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
Thanks for the tip, but no thanks for the snotty, greater than thou attitude (Way to bring Windows developers into the fold!!).

Your point about doing interface design in C++ was bizarre, though. You can, if you really want to, but it's not like Apple doesn't offer options with slick tools backed up by rich and mature frameworks.

Quote:
I browsed around and found the following link, which describes Apples recommended approach:

http://developer.apple.com/documenta...section_7.html

Heres the exerpt:

Developing a Java Client Application
The essential tasks you need to perform when creating a Java Client application are listed below:

1) Create a model using EOModeler.
2) Create a project using Project Builder.
3) Write source code for enterprise-object classes (if your enterprise objects require custom business logic).
4) Create your applications user interface with Interface Builder (Java Client approach).
5) Customize your applications user interface (Direct to Java Client approach).
6) Write source code for any application-level logic.

The problem with this approach is that alot of business application developers have beened burned by C++ application frameworks.

Where are the C++ application frameworks here? You're looking at WebObjects, which is a client-server application design and deployment suite built 100% in Java. Its frameworks have been stable and mature for years now (dating back to when it was implemented 100% in Objective-C - it's never had anything to do with C++).

The only C++ application frameworks for the Mac that I'm aware of are third party solutions like MetroWerks' PowerPlant.

Quote:
C++ adds an entire class of bugs that don't exist in languages such as Java (or as MS calls it; managed languages).

Huh? I remember Java back in the 1.x days, and it was so buggy that our class once fixed a bug by changing the name of a local variable. In other words, there was a bug in the symbol table implementation! I've never even heard of that in a C++ compiler.

If anything, managed languages (or, if you prefer, 4GLs) are more vulnerable to quality of implementation issues. Another such thing cropped up with a "managed language" we were using at work, called Forte. They'd implemented arrays as hashes, and in one update they borked the hashing algorithm so that every eighth member of an array vanished into the ether. This, in a $50,000 toolset. At least in a 3GL like C++ if some library has a bug I can drop down and roll my own replacement, and expect it to run well. (In Objective-C, I can pose the replacement as the buggy original, and write all my code as if I were using the original framework! Then when the vendor fixes the bug, I can yank out my workaround without changing a single line of code.)

I have to wonder why you're so fixated on C++ on Apple's OS? It's there. It's available if and when you need it. But none of Apple's frameworks use C++, or even target it as a primary development language; nearly all of Apple's frameworks are mature and battle-tested at this point (there are, and will always be, bugs, but the same is true of Java and .NET). You can use Objective-C, Python, Ruby, Java... and C++ when and if it makes sense to. Most people who use C++ on the Mac use the pure language, without any framework dependencies, for cross-platform code, and at that point you're very unlikely to run into bugs in the language implementation (unfortunate caveat: Microsoft's C++ compiler).

Quote:
For example, I spent about 600 hours on a project that got eventually got canceled because of all the bugs in Borlands Visual Component Library (Sorry for the negative press, Borland. Its been a few years and maybe you've fixed your problems). Sure, tools have gotten better at finding the types of memory bugs that create these hard-to-find, company-destroying bugs. But these same bugs simply do not exist in Java.

I'll be the last person on Earth to defend Borland, as their C++ Builder has given us a world of pain over the last year and a half. But that has nothing to do with C++ (Borland's actual language implementation is quite good, it's just their IDE and frameworks and makefiles that suck...) and everything to do with the crap you're linking it to.

Quote:
So I rephrase my claim to be more specific; I would highly value a framework that was developed on a managed language.

I'm content to know that the frameworks actually work, and that if they don't, the language will allow me to efficiently route around them - because I will have to do that at some point on any non-trivial project. And if a particular library or framework sucks (*cough*AWT*cough*) I'd like to have the option of not using it.
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post #22 of 44
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Amorph
Your point about doing interface design in C++ was bizarre, though. You can, if you really want to, but it's not like Apple doesn't offer options with slick tools backed up by rich and mature frameworks.

The point comes from experience. Granted I am always learning and am always ready to be plesantly surprised

Quote:

Where are the C++ application frameworks here? You're looking at WebObjects, which is a client-server application design and deployment suite built 100% in Java. Its frameworks have been stable and mature for years now (dating back to when it was implemented 100% in Objective-C - it's never had anything to do with C++).

The only C++ application frameworks for the Mac that I'm aware of are third party solutions like MetroWerks' PowerPlant.

Obviously I'm a newbie to mac development or I wouldn't be asking these sorts of questions. I don't know what WebObjects are. I'm going to go do some research right now. That sure sounds nice to me.

Quote:

Huh? I remember Java back in the 1.x days, and it was so buggy that our class once fixed a bug by changing the name of a local variable. In other words, there was a bug in the symbol table implementation! I've never even heard of that in a C++ compiler.

If anything, managed languages (or, if you prefer, 4GLs) are more vulnerable to quality of implementation issues. Another such thing cropped up with a "managed language" we were using at work, called Forte. They'd implemented arrays as hashes, and in one update they borked the hashing algorithm so that every eighth member of an array vanished into the ether. This, in a $50,000 toolset. At least in a 3GL like C++ if some library has a bug I can drop down and roll my own replacement, and expect it to run well. (In Objective-C, I can pose the replacement as the buggy original, and write all my code as if I were using the original framework! Then when the vendor fixes the bug, I can yank out my workaround without changing a single line of code.)

Again, these arguments come down to experiences. We have different experiences. My most successful and problem-free deployment had a Swing client (as opposed to DHTML client, please note that I am a professional enterprise developer and was once, long ago, a home coder). The problem that is most vivid from my unmanaged code days was that frameworks could crash at random locations, in and out of the debugger. These sorts of crashes came from buffer overflow. I have not done this sort of development in awhile, so I would certainly be game to trying new technologies upon colleage recommendations.

Quote:

I have to wonder why you're so fixated on C++ on Apple's OS? It's there. It's available if and when you need it. But none of Apple's frameworks use C++, or even target it as a primary development language; nearly all of Apple's frameworks are mature and battle-tested at this point (there are, and will always be, bugs, but the same is true of Java and .NET). You can use Objective-C, Python, Ruby, Java... and C++ when and if it makes sense to. Most people who use C++ on the Mac use the pure language, without any framework dependencies, for cross-platform code, and at that point you're very unlikely to run into bugs in the language implementation (unfortunate caveat: Microsoft's C++ compiler).



I'll be the last person on Earth to defend Borland, as their C++ Builder has given us a world of pain over the last year and a half. But that has nothing to do with C++ (Borland's actual language implementation is quite good, it's just their IDE and frameworks and makefiles that suck...) and everything to do with the crap you're linking it to.



I'm content to know that the frameworks actually work, and that if they don't, the language will allow me to efficiently route around them - because I will have to do that at some point on any non-trivial project. And if a particular library or framework sucks (*cough*AWT*cough*) I'd like to have the option of not using it.

I have never developed for Apple. I have no friends or colleages that have ever developed for Apple. So your assertion that the frameworks actually work is valueable to me and will be used when making decisions about what types of coding to try in the future.

Ideally, I would like to own, use, and develop on a Mac. But I cannot afford to ignore the windows and linux markets. So when you start talking about code that will not easily port to these platforms, you begin to lose my interest. Again, I know nothing of WebObjects and will go to research what problem this framework(?) solves.
post #23 of 44
Thread Starter 
OK, here it says that WebObjects uses swing to implement its client application guis:

http://developer.apple.com/documenta...iew/index.html

But it looks kick-a**... It claims to deploy to virtually any J2EE server or the WebObjects J2SE application server.. Very cool. They want $699 for it, though!!! I know, I shouldn't be so cheap....
post #24 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by Amorph
How do you accidentally override a method, and why isn't the solution to change or delete the offending method?


dead on....

borland got it right the first time around with Delphi
& then C++ Builder

C# is a clone of borlands work & it still dosent get some
things right
i wont mention mfc which was a complete piece of crap
compared to other framework libraries

btw do the vb coding genius's realize that vb was in direct
response to delphi 1.0 & microsoft still managed to botch
that up.


i'd much rather see borland port over delphi/c++ builder
to os x
they still make the best compilers out there & their tools
are really good
post #25 of 44
The only C++ application frameworks for the Mac that I'm aware of are third party solutions like MetroWerks' PowerPlant.


QT by Trolltech



In other words, there was a bug in the symbol table implementation! I've never even heard of that in a C++ compiler.

this from ms vc++ 6.0 compiler

for (int i=0;i<10;i++)

in the above case the local variable DOES NOT go out
of scope when the loop exits much to peoples dismay
not exactly a symbol table bug but i digress


I'll be the last person on Earth to defend Borland, as their C++ Builder has given us a world of pain over the last year and a half. But that has nothing to do with C++ (Borland's actual language implementation is quite good, it's just their IDE and frameworks and makefiles that suck...) and everything to do with the crap you're linking it to.


& what is the prob with the ide ?
grin~!~ sounds like a bad carpenter whining about their tools
the vcl does have a few bugs but its still a damm good
library.
why not paste the problem your facing & ill see if i can help
post #26 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
OK, here it says that WebObjects uses swing to implement its client application guis:

http://developer.apple.com/documenta...iew/index.html

But it looks kick-a**... It claims to deploy to virtually any J2EE server or the WebObjects J2SE application server.. Very cool. They want $699 for it, though!!! I know, I shouldn't be so cheap....

$699 for WO is cheap. When it was a NeXT technology, it cost $15K!
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post #27 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by madmax559
QT by Trolltech

That's another third-party framework, yes. PowerPlant was only an example of one available framework.

Quote:

this from ms vc++ 6.0 compiler

for (int i=0;i<10;i++)

in the above case the local variable DOES NOT go out
of scope when the loop exits much to peoples dismay
not exactly a symbol table bug but i digress

I did disclaim Microsoft's C++ compiler.

Quote:
I'll be the last person on Earth to defend Borland, as their C++ Builder has given us a world of pain over the last year and a half. But that has nothing to do with C++ (Borland's actual language implementation is quite good, it's just their IDE and frameworks and makefiles that suck...) and everything to do with the crap you're linking it to.


& what is the prob with the ide ?
grin~!~ sounds like a bad carpenter whining about their tools

Gee, thanks.

The problem with Borland's IDE? Look at the damn thing. The make facility doesn't always know that files have changed. The search-and-replace dialog's behavior was implemented by someone who doesn't know what a mouse is. The IDE is always trying to helpfully (and silently) insert code that breaks the application completely, forcing me to mark main files read-only and modify them at my peril. The IDE occasionally forgets that VCL exists. The only way to get a speedy compile is to drop to the command line. The keyboard shortcuts are random holdovers from DOS. Oh, and lately the IDE has decided that I can't use the debugger on my own DLLs.

The contractors we brought in to help us out with this app estimated that Borland's arbitrary bugginess and baffling behavior added $80,000 to the cost of the project.

As for the "bad carpenter" insult, stuff it. I make deadlines despite this piece of crap. I've had to burn weekends and stay up nights to do it, debugging code by hand, but I do it. That doesn't excuse the pathetic behavior of this sad excuse for an application, nor does it change the fact that I'd get more done with make, gcc and vi, let alone a proper IDE.

Nevertheless, as I said, at least the C++ compiler compiles C++, which is more than I can say for MS', and at least VCL isn't MFC. I've heard that I'd like Borland's tools a lot more if I used Delphi, and I'm willing to accept that. But so far it's been nothing but a PITA, and I'm getting approval to port the whole thing over to CodeWarrior and wash my hands of Borland altogether.
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post #28 of 44
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by madmax559
borland got it right the first time around with Delphi
& then C++ Builder

C# is a clone of borlands work & it still dosent get some
things right

if they got it right the first time, then how can it still not be right?

Quote:

btw do the vb coding genius's realize that vb was in direct
response to delphi 1.0 & microsoft still managed to botch
that up.

Do you remember Delphi being referred to as "VB killer?" Why would they call it that if VB wasn't out yet?
post #29 of 44
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by madmax559
& what is the prob with the ide ?
grin~!~ sounds like a bad carpenter whining about their tools
the vcl does have a few bugs but its still a damm good
library.
why not paste the problem your facing & ill see if i can help

Might I ask how many client machines your product was deployed to? You have two ways to go about debugging the code... You can either put a TTextBox on a blank form, compile and run the executable, then play around with cutting and pasting in the text box until it crashes, then knock yourself out trying to debug the VCL. Alternately, you can download any commercial product that uses the TTextBox or any component derived from it, and have at it.
post #30 of 44
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Amorph
...

Thank you Amorph. I didn't have the patience to respond to such absurd claims. Borland C++Builder appears to be a great product at first glance, but has lots of issues that make it a major no-no for developing things on a set deadline.

I, too, never claimed anything about Microsoft C++. In fact I don't even believe I mentioned it. Nor did I mention MFC. Thankfully, I was never an MFC programmer. Back in those days I was a mainly a Unix developer. I programmed directly to the XWindows API. When I did windows development, I skipped the MFC nonsense and went right to the Windows API.

But, alas, I have had some experience with pointer languages. I've developed a number of very useful applications in C and C++. But I shy away from pointer-language based frameworks. Its not that a good framework couldn't be developed, its just that the ones I personally have experience with were nothing but trouble.

I don't know how Objective-c differs from C++. It would be interesting to find out. I would also be willing to try any of Apple's development products, as long as I have someone with me that has done it before and can attest to the integrity of the API.
post #31 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
Might I ask how many client machines your product was deployed to? You have two ways to go about debugging the code... You can either put a TTextBox on a blank form, compile and run the executable, then play around with cutting and pasting in the text box until it crashes, then knock yourself out trying to debug the VCL. Alternately, you can download any commercial product that uses the TTextBox or any component derived from it, and have at it.


the "product" was based around multiple platforms
qnx & win32
it was a SS7 implementation for a very large telco
it was "deployed" in over 29 countries & at last count
was being used by over 40 million people every time they picked up a phone
tools used were vc++6, watcom on qnx & bcb5

the other product is a security app deployed to 300+ customers..ie customer is a dealer who may have 1 or more
users
tools delphi6 & vc++ for some dll's

any other questions ?
post #32 of 44
no offense meant or intended

heres my humble suggestion use delphi in conjunction
wil bcb & I guarentee it will work fine

bcb is a superset of delphi & its vcl implementation

if you are writing a common db based app then i really
recommend delphi along with bcb

btw u guys do realize that neverwinternights was done
in bcb or its toolkit
post #33 of 44
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by madmax559
the "product" was based around multiple platforms
qnx & win32
it was a SS7 implementation for a very large telco
it was "deployed" in over 29 countries & at last count
was being used by over 40 million people every time they picked up a phone
tools used were vc++6, watcom on qnx & bcb5

the other product is a security app deployed to 300+ customers..ie customer is a dealer who may have 1 or more
users
tools delphi6 & vc++ for some dll's

any other questions ?


ok.. I'm digging out my software... I have Delphi Developer v2.0 and Borland C++Builder Professional v4.0 (er, excuse me, Inprise. haha). I never had any problems with Delphi developer, but it was too late to go back and rewrite the software from the ground up in Delphi after starting in C++Builder.

In case you haven't noticed, the prices are out of control for their new versions. Add to the fact that I have never, in all 11 years of professional experience, come across a job opportunity for a Delphi developer, and that explains why I'm unwilling to spend that sort of money on the tool.

Had C++Builder worked as advertised, I would have thought it was the bee's-knees, because I felt comfortable in the Delphi IDE. It was a bad decision for Borland to release a buggy version of C++Builder, because all it did was take developers away from Delphi, which sounds to be a much more robust product. Then, after kludging around in C++Builder, Java came out and there was money to be had for jumping on the bandwaggon. My Delphi was left in the dust.

Edit: Guessing from your deployment history, VCL was never used? Is that true? This is the framework I had problems with in C++Builder.
post #34 of 44
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by madmax559
no offense meant or intended

Its alright. It was an off the cuff remark.. Just make a mental note that developers get rilled up when you insult the quality of their code.

Quote:

btw u guys do realize that neverwinternights was done
in bcb or its toolkit

Never head of it. Am I missing something?
post #35 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by Amorph
$699 for WO is cheap. When it was a NeXT technology, it cost $15K!

Not to derail this into a WO thread... but while that is cheap compared to the cost of deployment in the NeXT days... $700 is still $700 more than it costs me to deploy things like ASP, JSP, etceteras. I really want to like WebObjects, I really do. But I can't find a client that will either spring for the $700 deployment cost, or a client that will host their site on a Mac/Slowlaris/Windows box. If they cut prices for deployment again, get O'Reilly to write a freaking book about it (I mean, come on, there are NO resources for the damn thing), and support it on Linux... I'll be happy. I'll be happy because I could actually use it then \
post #36 of 44
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by LoCash
Not to derail this into a WO thread... but while that is cheap compared to the cost of deployment in the NeXT days... $700 is still $700 more than it costs me to deploy things like ASP, JSP, etceteras. I really want to like WebObjects, I really do. But I can't find a client that will either spring for the $700 deployment cost, or a client that will host their site on a Mac/Slowlaris/Windows box. If they cut prices for deployment again, get O'Reilly to write a freaking book about it (I mean, come on, there are NO resources for the damn thing), and support it on Linux... I'll be happy. I'll be happy because I could actually use it then \

Its alright, this post got derailed a long time ago. I was abole to find a few books on WebObjects at Amazon, including this one that got five stars: WebObjects 5 for Mac OS X: Visual QuickPro Guide (032111549X).. Granted its not O'Reilly.

But you have a very valid point... About the only way I'm going to be able to use WebObjects is to start my own company and front the investment money myself, because I've never come across anybody using it. I just went to Monster and selected half the cities in my state (FL) and still came up with no selections... I think if I evaluated it and it looked good enough, I might front the money.
post #37 of 44
www.bioware.com for neverwinter nights
its an rpg & it was made using bcb6 for win32 & linux


your versions of delphi & bcb are way way too old

my guess is you guys ran into issues with older vers
of bcb im currently using d7 & bcb6 & yes the vcl
was used very very heavily on the gui side of things

theres a lot of job postings for delphi depending where
you look.
theres tons of apps written in delphi

TOAD from www.quest.com
Quicken
All products from EMS software

heck ive lost count of where delphi is used.
post #38 of 44
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by madmax559
www.bioware.com for neverwinter nights
its an rpg & it was made using bcb6 for win32 & linux


your versions of delphi & bcb are way way too old

my guess is you guys ran into issues with older vers
of bcb im currently using d7 & bcb6 & yes the vcl
was used very very heavily on the gui side of things

theres a lot of job postings for delphi depending where
you look.
theres tons of apps written in delphi

TOAD from www.quest.com
Quicken
All products from EMS software

heck ive lost count of where delphi is used.

I'm not seeing these jobs. Granted I'm looking on Monster and its possible that Delphi is limited to the smaller shops, which may not use monster to find new employees. Heck, when I type "Delphi", it provides a couple links, such as "Delphi Developer" and "Delphi Programmer"... But those links bring up a list of .net jobs and/or Java jobs.
post #39 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by madmax559

this from ms vc++ 6.0 compiler

for (int i=0;i<10;i++)

in the above case the local variable DOES NOT go out
of scope when the loop exits much to peoples dismay
not exactly a symbol table bug but i digress


Just to add some humor from the new guy....

That error reminds me of programming in C for an embedded systems class. You know, where you have to declare int i above the for loop. Makes me wonder where MS got their vc compiler from.......I mean vc++. Yeah, that's what I mean...
I'll take a shack on a rock over a castle in the sand." ~ Casting Crowns
Reply
I'll take a shack on a rock over a castle in the sand." ~ Casting Crowns
Reply
post #40 of 44
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
OK, here it says that WebObjects uses swing to implement its client application guis:

http://developer.apple.com/documenta...iew/index.html

But it looks kick-a**... It claims to deploy to virtually any J2EE server or the WebObjects J2SE application server.. Very cool. They want $699 for it, though!!! I know, I shouldn't be so cheap....

How much do you want to pay? I've got a copy for sale.
--Johnny
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--Johnny
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