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iBook G4 - Page 5

post #161 of 236
Why 12" iBook is only 800MHz? Sometimes smaller laptop is better, if you travel a lot.
post #162 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by curiousuburb
1) officially, only Video Mirroring is supported (same res as main screen)
so out of the box, your iBook will only drive externals at 1024x768 max

_unofficially_, with the Spanning hack, current iBook users report externals up to 1600x1200.
if the same hack (or variation of it) still works, you could see higher res on an external 19"

2) current iBooks do have the lid Apple lit by the screen backlight.
Almost certain the new ones will maintain this 'feature'.

Thats a good news. Thanks
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post #163 of 236
Ugggh, still that horrible white shell. The thing will scratch if you breathe on it. Cool specs, but iBooks = 1000 bucks of CHEAP crap. Prefer my Powerbook 12 and 15inch , hands down the two best looking notebooks Apple has ever made and they are very solid machines. If people are in the market for budget notebooks, look somewhere else. Out of 8 iBooks we bought for our employees back in March, just two are still with us and they are used as backups (mostly collecting dust).
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post #164 of 236
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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JLL

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post #165 of 236
staphbaby
My god! You were so right.
I checked at another store after I posted. Seems like the Apple reseller we've been using for years has been charging us more.. A lot more..
Aw heck. Well, won't be using them anymore.

However, the Panther price was correct. As they didn't have educational pricing at the time. Lucky yours and mine match eh?

Updated prices:

iBooks\t\t\t\t
Educational Pricing........................ 12" $ 1785
.................................................. ......14" $ 2161
1 GHz, 60GB HD, Combo Drive............14" $ 2443.06

933 MHz............................................$ 2161.06 Retail $2299.06

P.S, Relic that's a pretty harsh statement, Apple releases the iBooks as lower costing alternatives. If you have 12 & 15 inch laptops, then you aren't doing badly. I think the white looks cool, unless it's transparent..
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post #166 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by sCreeD
Exactly, I'm comparing the specs of the 12" iBook and 12" Powerbook and wondering why exactly I paid $500 extra.

more RAM,
better video-connector,
shiny aluminium

i think you will most benefit from the 12" Powerbook when adding more RAM to it... 640MB is maximum for the 12" iBook
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post #167 of 236
To further follow up from JLL's post- it doesn't look like this is a 'true' G4- there's no AltiVec! Velocity engine isn't mentioned anywhere, and if you look at the specs:


800MHz, 933MHz or 1GHz PowerPC G4 processor with 256K on-chip level 2 cache running at full processor speed

133 MHZ system bus

256MB of SDRAM (128MB built in and 128MB in SO-DIMM slot)

There's no mention of altivec. Look at the eMac specs:

1GHz PowerPC G4 processor with Velocity Engine

256K on-chip level 2 cache at full processor speed

133MHz system bus

128MB or 256MB of PC133 SDRAM, expandable up to 1GB; two user-accessible 168-pin DIMM slots support up to 1GB using 128MB, 256MB, or 512MB DIMMs



As Mac Slash says- this is probably the new IBM 750 class processor with DDR support and a faster bus, and has therefore been reclassified as a G4. Either that or it's a hobbled Moto G4, but that seems unlikely.

Guess us 12" powerbook owners feel a bit better about the premium now...
post #168 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by Stratosfear
Why 12" iBook is only 800MHz? Sometimes smaller laptop is better, if you travel a lot.

Because the iBook isn't built for road warriors. It has filled that role for some people, but only as a pure accident of component cost/size. The iBook is aimed squarely at students and budget buyers. The market has shown time and time again that these buyers favor a larger screen over portability. Also, since the iBook DOES NOT SPAN DISPLAYS, a larger screen is absolutely critical to people who want to work comfortably on the machine as their only computer (no external display, no "docking"- undocking) A student might not have the money or the space to set up a little "dock" (monitor, keyboard, stand) for their book. There's no denying that the 14" screen is more pleasant to work with if ultimate portabilitgy is not at issue, and -- living on campus, or being shuttled in the car, or just travelling from the bedroom to the kitchen -- it isn't!

If you want the smallest, lightest and fastest, Apple will gladly sell you a 12" PB with all the other advantages of that model.

The 12" iBook will linger for a while, but it is now the bottom model, as it should be, it gets the smallest screen not for portability, but to be as cheap as possible, which is also why it gets a significantly slower PPC, and lower HDD capacity.

I can safely tell you that the 12" iBook will never get a DVD-burning option, will grow increasingly under-spec'd versus the 14" models WRT to RAM/HDD/IO options, and probably fall slightly behind in terms of GPU updates as well, just as in the past, where the bottom model didn't recieve the same GPU bump that other recieved. It's there only to meet an entry level price point. For the majority of buyers the 14" model is the real one to get on the merits of the larger screen alone.

The competition features 15"+ screens. Apple had to do this, they were well behind. Look for the 12" iBook to be an orphan model untill it is finally phased out in favor of a 14-15" widescreen iBook redesign (a la Pscates' lovely mock-up)

In consumer/edu notebook markets, larger screens are a strong selling point!

At the same time, look for the next revisions of the 12" PB to squeak under the 4lb mark, unless the move to G5's becomes more difficult than Apple at first imagined.

PS. Mortigi, current PB12 (1Ghz, DVI) opwners should feel better about the premium regardless. For the 500, they got a lighter, faster, more durable machine with better I/O, better video connection and SUPPORTED display spanning! (not to mention the greatest keyboard ever made)
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post #169 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by mortigi tempo
To further follow up from JLL's post- it doesn't look like this is a 'true' G4- there's no AltiVec! Velocity engine isn't mentioned anywhere

I found this:

http://www.apple.com/education/products/ibook/

Look under What's new
JLL

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JLL

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post #170 of 236
well that's good. wonder why they didn't put it in the specs though...

Perhaps a web monkey error? Apple's web monkeys seem to be making a lot of cock ups recently
post #171 of 236
Maybe they're just sick of talking about or someone just didnt remember to mention it. Anyway, now thats cleared up can we get over it and talk about what a bargin the iBook G4 is rather than if a G4 can be a G4 without Altivec (it cant) Sheesh!
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post #172 of 236
If this chip had been anything less than a real G4 they would have had their ass fed to them. In magazines. In the news. And in the courts.

Waiting to find out what G4 we are talking about.
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post #173 of 236
It's the 7445, as featured in the first 12" PB, probably most of the same motherboard too.

I agree with you, Anders, no way that it would be anything less than an altivec enabled PPC, for all the reasons you mention.
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post #174 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by Matsu
It's the 7445, as featured in the first 12" PB, probably most of the same motherboard too.

However, hostinfo in the 12" powerbook (first generation) I am using right now says "PowerPC 7450".
post #175 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by Relic
Ugggh, still that horrible white shell. The thing will scratch if you breathe on it. Cool specs, but iBooks = 1000 bucks of CHEAP crap. Prefer my Powerbook 12 and 15inch , hands down the two best looking notebooks Apple has ever made and they are very solid machines. If people are in the market for budget notebooks, look somewhere else. Out of 8 iBooks we bought for our employees back in March, just two are still with us and they are used as backups (mostly collecting dust).

Send your extra ones to me tout-de-suite!
post #176 of 236
**** Damnit Matsu, I clap along with the crowd when you do your price dance just like everyone else, but get off your vendetta against the iBook 12" !!! *****

WTF? Why is it so important to your ego to constantly bash the 12" computer and vehemently lobby for it to be phased out at every opportunity? Everytime you lob this idea in here you get into an argument with about 5 students and people who try to explain to you there are folks in the world who don't want to have to lug around a 14" computer because they don't have the bucks for a powerbook. It has been demonstrated time and time again that there is a huge market out there for people who think that small is beautiful. And with the monitor spanning hack these are really great work computers for 2D folks. You're not suggesting that Apple disable this feature further out of spite are you?

I do have friends who have the 14" because they like the big screen, but everyone I know personally under 30 years of age has bought the 12" and it's not because of the price. In fact, this is about the cutest little piece of seductive hardware that apple has out there (iPods excluded) for non-techie types and non-powerusers. Funny how "cute", "portable" and "cheap" are all things that young people want. Just like old people need a big screen. Different demographics, different products, mmkay?

I completely agree with you that these are the entry level laptop and need to be as cheap as possible and need not be so powerful, but why keep up this active ignorance about the fact that there is a place for this form factor without it being either a)totally crippled or b)expensive (Pb 12")? You are really getting a bit tedious...

I agree with 90% of what you post, and agree that one model of iBook should be left behind in features in order to keep lowering the price, but there is also a place for a well spec'ed smaller version that would appeal to the kids who want a small computer with modern technology and yet can't justify $500 more for Pb. How else do you hit the price/performance sweet spot that moderately informed young people buy in? If the Pb 12" is your solution to the portability concerns - who is disregarding price now?

I love you man but everytime the title of the thread has the word "iBook" in it I know you are about to whip out the soapbox to catechize yet again that one of the best loved apple machines should be killed off, and I wish you would spend your energy elsewhere.
post #177 of 236
double post, sorry
post #178 of 236
Can anyone tell me if the dimensions of the new ibooks are the same as the dimensions of the previous ibooks? I'm trying to figure out if they're bigger or not.
post #179 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by rajk
Can anyone tell me if the dimensions of the new ibooks are the same as the dimensions of the previous ibooks? I'm trying to figure out if they're bigger or not.

Refer to here for current specs:
http://www.apple.com/ibook/specs.html

Here for April 2003 revision specs:
http://manuals.info.apple.com/Apple_...L27500A_EN.pdf

They appear to be the same dimensions.
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post #180 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by rajk
Can anyone tell me if the dimensions of the new ibooks are the same as the dimensions of the previous ibooks? I'm trying to figure out if they're bigger or not.

The dimensions are the same. In fact, the case is almost the exact same as the old case - the only differences are the color scheme and the slot-loading drive.

EDIT: Damn your loins, MCQ
post #181 of 236
Thanks, guys.
post #182 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by Relic
Ugggh, still that horrible white shell. The thing will scratch if you breathe on it. Cool specs, but iBooks = 1000 bucks of CHEAP crap. Prefer my Powerbook 12 and 15inch , hands down the two best looking notebooks Apple has ever made and they are very solid machines. If people are in the market for budget notebooks, look somewhere else. Out of 8 iBooks we bought for our employees back in March, just two are still with us and they are used as backups (mostly collecting dust).

the things are rock solid. quit your whining.




uhg, this thread is getting sadder and sadder.
post #183 of 236
what is this kid a weakling.. ibooks are not that heavy



post #184 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by gar
it's magic and called psychology.
a speedbump without actually offering a realistic speedbump. apple makes buyers wow about the fact the ibook also reached the 1Ghz line. a speedbump of 100Mhz over last springs 900Mhz G3. but this will actually cannibalise sales of the powerbook 12" and the 933Mhz ibook version if it was priced as low as, say $1399.00. so what apple is saying: if you really want more power: buy a powerbook for $100,00 more or pay for it dearly.
the 14" case of the 933Mhz and 1Ghz G4 ibook is there for a reason: heat. next update sports: a 7447 G4 @ 1Ghz and maybe a little beyond

OK, psychology, that's clear. But two things:

1) I don't think you can really compare the 900Mhz G3 with a 800 or 933 Mhz G4. I would expect even the 800Mhz G4 to be faster than the G3.
2) Curious about performance tho. . . . what speed difference will that 67Mhz actually make?

Cheers
post #185 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by Matsu
It's the 7445, as featured in the first 12" PB, probably most of the same motherboard too.

I agree with you, Anders, no way that it would be anything less than an altivec enabled PPC, for all the reasons you mention.

From http://www.hardmac.com/niouzcontenu....2003-10-22#860

"The L2 cache memory is only 256 KB, as compared to the 512 on PowerBooks. Therefore the CPUs used are PPC7455 as in former PowerBook models(and not the new 7457 unit). So the 1GHz iBook will undoubtedly be slower than a PowerBook running at the same frequency."

it seems to be a PPC7455 not a 7445
post #186 of 236
Why do you guys assume that the ommission of Altivec/Velocity Engine from the specs is a web monkey error yet you don't conversely suspect that the -inclusion- of Altivec/Velocity Engine on the students page could be a web monkey error? Content is seldom written from scratch and a template tweaking error is just as likely.

I'm making no arguments pro or con, I just don't think that 2 sources in this case is enough to warrant a final determination on the subject.

Yes, the arguments made prior are valid reasons why Apple wouldn't leave it out, but not proof.
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post #187 of 236
The lack of mention of the velocity engine could be a promotion tool for the pushing of powerbooks to people who need the velocity engine; to help max out sales of available inventory. Doesn't mean that it doesn't have it. Just a theory.
post #188 of 236
No G3 exists that meets the description of the chip in the iBook (1GHz, 256k L2).

One Mot G4 exists that meets that description.

Apple has consistently referred to Motorola's 74xx series as 'G4' and IBM's 750 series as 'G3'. For years. Through multiple redesigns of both architectures.

AltiVec is not something that you can bolt on or take off like an L3 cache. It's either designed into the CPU die and the scheduler and the caches, etc., or it's not. If IBM had released a G3+AltiVec we'd have heard of it at the last MPF. We didn't. If Mot had released a G4 minus AltiVec (a G3, basically) we'd have heard of it, too.

The most straightforward conclusion is that whatever's on the web page, a G4 means a Motorola 74xx part, like it's always meant, and so it has AltiVec, like every 74xx part has had.

We'll know for sure soon enough, but frankly I can't believe this has become as much of an issue as it has. It's not in the interest of the marketing department to muddy the meaning of the 'G4' brand after 4 years of perfect clarity.
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post #189 of 236
Apple pages for the iBook have just been updated. Now showing iBook G4 with Velocity Engine all over the place.
post #190 of 236
finally, now the altivec dispute has been settled, i can go to sleep peacefully now!
post #191 of 236
I still do not understand why the mac web went absolutely NUTS here and for no reason whatsoever decided to start questioning whether or not the iBook was a "real" G4. Was it that surprising? Did people not believe that MacRumors, AppleInsider and NMR could be wrong? Well, I'm sorry folks, but if the rumor sites and Apple say two different things about an announced product, Apple is right.

So, tell me, all of you that decided to jump on this paranoid bandwagon: why? Did Apple abuse you or something when you were young such that you no longer trust them to call a G4 a G4 and a G3 a G3?
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post #192 of 236
How about the screen quality on the 12"? Is the vertical viewing angle any better than on the older Books (iBook 600, for example)?
post #193 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by AlPanther
From http://www.hardmac.com/niouzcontenu....2003-10-22#860

"The L2 cache memory is only 256 KB, as compared to the 512 on PowerBooks. Therefore the CPUs used are PPC7455 as in former PowerBook models(and not the new 7457 unit). So the 1GHz iBook will undoubtedly be slower than a PowerBook running at the same frequency."

it seems to be a PPC7455 not a 7445

There is a great difference between a G3 design and a G4 design : it's the mobo and the system bus. The G3 has the old protocol, and the G4 (excepted the yikes) the MPX protocol wich was a huge improvement at the times.
In term of memory performance the MPX bus is three times faster than the G3 bus (according to Apple when they released the sawtooth design).

Add DDR memory who help for I/O stuff, and you will understand why the i book G4 won't be slower than the previous ones.
post #194 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by AlPanther
From http://www.hardmac.com/niouzcontenu....2003-10-22#860

"The L2 cache memory is only 256 KB, as compared to the 512 on PowerBooks. Therefore the CPUs used are PPC7455 as in former PowerBook models(and not the new 7457 unit). So the 1GHz iBook will undoubtedly be slower than a PowerBook running at the same frequency."

it seems to be a PPC7455 not a 7445

That's no evidence that it's a 7455, they're just guessing and being sloppy about it! The 7455 and 7445 are identical except for the fact that the '45 has no support for L3, both have exactly the same amount of L2 (256KB). It was the 7445 that was used in the first PB12, and it is also used here for a two reasons. First, it's cheaper than the '55 -- no point paying for L3 support you're no using, nor ever going to use. Second, it's smaller and cooler than the '55 -- both good things, if you don't need L3, and we already know that iBooks don't use it, and won't unless Powerbooks move on to some substantially faster CPUs.

It's still a .18u chip, and Apple will have had to work hard to keep heat under control, the L3 vs die-size/heat/cost equation virtually guarantees that this is a 7445 CPU, NOT the 7455. However, if I'm wrong JYD will fellate himself live in iChat AV.
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post #195 of 236
Header on iBook page has been updated and now reads:

"The worlds best-loved consumer portable gets an impressive makeover with a superfast PowerPC G4 processor with Velocity Engine, a new architecture, a slot-loading optical drive and enhanced wireless networking capabilities. Plus Mac OS X v10.3 Panther, the worlds most advanced operating system. Starting at just $1099."
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post #196 of 236
Yeah its too bad they under spec'd the 12 inch one....
The 12 inch sells supposedly twice to 3x times faster from what I hear from my friends at fry's and CompUSA, for the only sake as because of its size.

sides the both have the same resolution... you're only getting one stretched out, and one not. What I hate on the 14 is if you've ever worked in one, say like looking at a pdf at actual size, on the 14 you have to make it like 75% or so to see it as close to possible to its real physical size... which is stupid

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post #197 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by Curufinwe
**** Damnit Matsu, I clap along with the crowd when you do your price dance just like everyone else, but get off your vendetta against the iBook 12" !!! *****

WTF? Why is it so important to your ego to constantly bash the 12" computer and vehemently lobby for it to be phased out at every opportunity? Everytime you lob this idea in here you get into an argument with about 5 students and people who try to explain to you there are folks in the world who don't want to have to lug around a 14" computer because they don't have the bucks for a powerbook. It has been demonstrated time and time again that there is a huge market out there for people who think that small is beautiful. And with the monitor spanning hack these are really great work computers for 2D folks. You're not suggesting that Apple disable this feature further out of spite are you?

I do have friends who have the 14" because they like the big screen, but everyone I know personally under 30 years of age has bought the 12" and it's not because of the price. In fact, this is about the cutest little piece of seductive hardware that apple has out there (iPods excluded) for non-techie types and non-powerusers. Funny how "cute", "portable" and "cheap" are all things that young people want. Just like old people need a big screen. Different demographics, different products, mmkay?

I completely agree with you that these are the entry level laptop and need to be as cheap as possible and need not be so powerful, but why keep up this active ignorance about the fact that there is a place for this form factor without it being either a)totally crippled or b)expensive (Pb 12")? You are really getting a bit tedious...

I agree with 90% of what you post, and agree that one model of iBook should be left behind in features in order to keep lowering the price, but there is also a place for a well spec'ed smaller version that would appeal to the kids who want a small computer with modern technology and yet can't justify $500 more for Pb. How else do you hit the price/performance sweet spot that moderately informed young people buy in? If the Pb 12" is your solution to the portability concerns - who is disregarding price now?

I love you man but everytime the title of the thread has the word "iBook" in it I know you are about to whip out the soapbox to catechize yet again that one of the best loved apple machines should be killed off, and I wish you would spend your energy elsewhere.

You've almost convinced me about the importance of the 12" iBook, but...

It must be predicated on the machine being cheap (prepare pricing dance for future deployment). They could stick with a 12" bottom end, but to really drive the price down, it's going to have to stick with proportionally slower CPUs, smaller HDDs and weaker video. 1099 is a good entry, but the pressure is on. There aren't a lot of portable options that cost less that are actually worth buying, but there are a few and by next year there will be plenty. 799-899 is a mark worth striving for, even if the machine is proportionally slower.

Basically, the arguments you make amount to a niche -- the budget conscious mac road warrior. Niches are nice, but they can be the undoing of a company like Apple. Apple needs to attack the major markets, in laptops that means BIG SCREEN CONSUMER MACHINES. It makes sense.

This kind of buyer will not accessorize the machine with an external desktop set-up. They want one machine to do everything! And they want a big screen that they can view comfortably as their main desktop and mobile display, without a Dual Display setup. The iBook 12" excels as a secondary mac, and is a good primary machine in a pinch, though the lack of spanning hurts it. I don't trust the hack. Apple, however, should not make the assinine manouver of crippling machines to upsell buyers. The high end should sell itself on its own merits -- the PB's will move ahead significantly within the next 12 months and this problem will go away, Apple should just enable the spanning by then, or at the very least, provide a docked (closed lid) mode that lets you drive a higher res external display. But I digest...

It's as simple as matching the competition and competing on features. The people on these boards are atypical buyers, they have their own rationale that doesn't really match the behavior of the average consumer. Apple has read the trends and taken appropriate action.

The 14 is definitely the best consumer laptop option. The 12 is a great budget, budget-traveler option, but it doesn't make the same argument for itslef as an "primary machine" that the 14 does. So, yeah, it should continue, but they need to drive the price of it down, since it will always be a better secondary computer than a primary machine for the majority of consumers/students.

I'd still look for a widescreen replacement to oust both these models once the PB's move on to their G5 future (at least a year)

Ideally, Apple could build the mobo/case combination around a degree of modularity and just offer the same spec in your choice of either 12 or 14" model. If the 14" models are not artificially overpriced, they will outsell the 12" models even in such a scenario. But because Apple has inventory control issues to manage, we may not see such a scenario, they will instead opt for the model with the most potential, and that is the larger screen affordable machine. Most consumers will be happy.
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post #198 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by Matsu
But I digest...




edit: wow, I see I've lost post count.\
post #199 of 236
Quote:
Originally posted by Akumulator



edit: wow, I see I've lost post count.\

me too. i had 404 (last time i looked at it, yesterday, about 3 posts earlier/
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post #200 of 236
Why must everyone make the G4 thing so complex. Thank god Apple has upgraded the tech specs.

It seems obvious to me, when you had a choice of two different families of processor it was necessary ( in the eyes of marketing ) to really sell the difference.

With the G3 gone from the lineup there is no need to talk about altivec - everyone has it.

I would have expected references to it to disappear as tech specs got updated.
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