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iBook G4 - Page 6

post #201 of 236
10/23/03 at 4:48pm
Quote:
Originally posted by AlPanther
From http://www.hardmac.com/niouzcontenu....2003-10-22#860

"The L2 cache memory is only 256 KB, as compared to the 512 on PowerBooks. Therefore the CPUs used are PPC7455 as in former PowerBook models(and not the new 7457 unit). So the 1GHz iBook will undoubtedly be slower than a PowerBook running at the same frequency."

it seems to be a PPC7455 not a 7445

It's just a quote, day-um. As far as evidence that it's a 7455 ask the refrence poster mailto:Ewok
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post #202 of 236
10/23/03 at 5:13pm
fwiw xbenched ibook 800 vs pb 867

http://ladd.dyndns.org/xbench/merge....473&doc2=39531

hmm interesting....

heheh found the link somewhere else, but blowed if I can find that machine listed anywhere
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post #203 of 236
10/23/03 at 5:53pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Matsu
You've almost convinced me about the importance of the 12" iBook, but...

It must be predicated on the machine being cheap (prepare pricing dance for future deployment). They could stick with a 12" bottom end, but to really drive the price down, it's going to have to stick with proportionally slower CPUs, smaller HDDs and weaker video. 1099 is a good entry, but the pressure is on. There aren't a lot of portable options that cost less that are actually worth buying, but there are a few and by next year there will be plenty. 799-899 is a mark worth striving for, even if the machine is proportionally slower.

Basically, the arguments you make amount to a niche -- the budget conscious mac road warrior. Niches are nice, but they can be the undoing of a company like Apple. Apple needs to attack the major markets, in laptops that means BIG SCREEN CONSUMER MACHINES. It makes sense.

This kind of buyer will not accessorize the machine with an external desktop set-up. They want one machine to do everything! And they want a big screen that they can view comfortably as their main desktop and mobile display, without a Dual Display setup. The iBook 12" excels as a secondary mac, and is a good primary machine in a pinch, though the lack of spanning hurts it. I don't trust the hack. Apple, however, should not make the assinine manouver of crippling machines to upsell buyers. The high end should sell itself on its own merits -- the PB's will move ahead significantly within the next 12 months and this problem will go away, Apple should just enable the spanning by then, or at the very least, provide a docked (closed lid) mode that lets you drive a higher res external display. But I digest...

It's as simple as matching the competition and competing on features. The people on these boards are atypical buyers, they have their own rationale that doesn't really match the behavior of the average consumer. Apple has read the trends and taken appropriate action.

The 14 is definitely the best consumer laptop option. The 12 is a great budget, budget-traveler option, but it doesn't make the same argument for itslef as an "primary machine" that the 14 does. So, yeah, it should continue, but they need to drive the price of it down, since it will always be a better secondary computer than a primary machine for the majority of consumers/students.

I'd still look for a widescreen replacement to oust both these models once the PB's move on to their G5 future (at least a year)

Ideally, Apple could build the mobo/case combination around a degree of modularity and just offer the same spec in your choice of either 12 or 14" model. If the 14" models are not artificially overpriced, they will outsell the 12" models even in such a scenario. But because Apple has inventory control issues to manage, we may not see such a scenario, they will instead opt for the model with the most potential, and that is the larger screen affordable machine. Most consumers will be happy.

Apple is not "crippling" the low end models, they are differentiating the product line. Each consumer is prepared to spend a different amount of money in order to satisfy their needs.

For example, McDonalds is not deliberately crippling their hamburgers and cheesburgers. They are merely swapping components in order to create a lower cost menu item compared to a Big Mac, McChicken, etc.
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post #204 of 236
10/23/03 at 6:06pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Chagi
Apple is not "crippling" the low end models, they are differentiating the product line.

There's a difference betwen differentiating and crippling. Crippling is when you disable a feature that is already present to make the more expensive model seem like it's worth the money. Like video spanning on the iBooks. It's there. It works. But Apple put software in the firmware to disable it. It would've actually cost less to leave it enabled than go through the trouble of disabling it. I'm not complaining (much), because it helps sell the more profitable Powerbooks, and few iBook users realy miss it. But it's defnitely crippling.

The iBook RAM situation, OTOH, I would call differentiation, since it would be more expensive to have a second empty slot or to place more RAM in the soldered slot.
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post #205 of 236
10/23/03 at 6:15pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Chagi
Apple is not "crippling" the low end models, they are differentiating the product line. Each consumer is prepared to spend a different amount of money in order to satisfy their needs.

For example, McDonalds is not deliberately crippling their hamburgers and cheesburgers. They are merely swapping components in order to create a lower cost menu item compared to a Big Mac, McChicken, etc.

There's quite a bit of difference between iBooks and hamburgers. McDonalds pays for everything in a hamburger, whereas Apple could have the iBooks doing video spanning, from the factory, with no additional cost whatsoever. I think there's plenty of reason to use the word "cripple".

And yes, this "crippling" is done to serve the purpose of differentation aka versioning. It just happens to be a very visible and irritating case of versioning since video spanning is a standard feature in the laptop computer industry, and everybody knows the functionality is in fact built in the product but hidden. It would be much easier to accept this versioning if the physical part costs to build a non-spanning laptop were, say, $5 more.
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post #206 of 236
10/23/03 at 10:39pm
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It would be great to see a iBook G3 vs. iBook G4 vs. Powerbook 12" speed test. Anyone found one?
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post #207 of 236
10/23/03 at 10:54pm
Thank you, relic, for annoying me [not]. I love my nice little iBook G3.
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post #208 of 236
10/24/03 at 3:12am
I'm happy that you found someone or (thing) to share your life with Don't get me wrong I know the iBook is intended as a low line machine and it is outfitted as such. However I'm the kind of guy who buys B&O stereos not because their the best but they look great. After seeing the shape of an iBook after just one month of NORMAL use it looks like a person took a Brilo pad to it . It's just annoyingly frustrating to spend that kind of money for scratches and not to mention the endless hardware problems we've experienced with them. If your happy with yours then great, I just couldn't recommend one to any of my friends.
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post #209 of 236
10/24/03 at 3:18am
I think they're all great machines, but lets set some of the iBook/PBook stuff straight.

The original PB867 wiped the floor with the iBook 800 in real world tests. Macworld used a suite of TIMED tests of REAL APPLICATIONS, including iMovie/iPhoto/iTunes, Photoshop, Office, and Adobe. The PB was 2-3X faster than the iBook across all of these. Even with 900Mhz G3's, that's still not a deficit that that G3 iBook could overcome and the 867 PB still wipes the floor with all of those when it comes to doing real work.

Undoubtedly the move to an 800Mhz G4 for the 12" iBook is still a substantial improvement over the 900Mhz G3 and the only thing that the 900Mhz G3 model would beat it at are some obscure memory test or I/O subsystem test that has more to do with MoBo than the CPU itself. Even if IBM had ever produced 1.1+ Ghz G3's, the 800Mhz G4 now in use would still be faster when it counts, a lot faster.

This is a great upgrade to the iBook line, there's no other way to look at it.
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post #210 of 236
10/24/03 at 3:35am
The only thing about the iBook that pisses me off (it has to do with Apple not the iBook) pricing is that when you go to the special education apple store for the US you can get an iBook for over a hundred dollars cheaper Canadian than you can get at the apple educational store for Canada! What a shame! I would have loved to get an iBook for 1548 rather than 1648, especially since I am a university student who like almost all of us, doesn't have hundreds stashed somewhere waiting to be used for the sole purpose of not allowing dust to form on the bills...

With that money it would almost cover an Airport Extreme card which is $137 Canadian discounted (which is still very expensive)!!! Not to mention the 288 dollars for AppleCare! Oh I hope that summer job comes through with the cash.... Anyways, the point is, that it sucks that Apple upped the price over a hundred dollars just for it being Canada to the NORTH!

P.S

I will now proceed to bang my head against my igloo and hope my forehead doesn't stick to the ice........
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post #211 of 236
10/24/03 at 4:28am
Can anyone confirme if Spanning hack still works with new iBooks?

EDIT: I found this so I quess it DOES work. What a great news!
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post #212 of 236
10/24/03 at 9:49am
Quote:
Originally posted by Matsu
I think they're all great machines, but lets set some of the iBook/PBook stuff straight.

The original PB867 wiped the floor with the iBook 800 in real world tests. Macworld used a suite of TIMED tests of REAL APPLICATIONS, including iMovie/iPhoto/iTunes, Photoshop, Office, and Adobe. The PB was 2-3X faster than the iBook across all of these. Even with 900Mhz G3's, that's still not a deficit that that G3 iBook could overcome and the 867 PB still wipes the floor with all of those when it comes to doing real work.

You got a link to any of that? I remember seeing a certain http://barefeats.com/emac.html barefeats benchmark that shows the G3 winning a few benchmarks on non"altivec" code. The cache seems to help it here...then again, this is sort of an anomoly as Bryce will no longer be made for Mac and Cinema 4D is supposed to get a huge update to make it G5 optimized.

What I'm really wondering is if the G4 iBooks can keep up with the G3 iBooks when it comes to battery life. That's an important consideration...
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post #213 of 236
10/24/03 at 10:05am
Here's the review of the Rev. A 12" Powerbook by Macworld; scroll down halfway to see the benchmarks. (It beats the iBook by more than 200% in most tests.)

Link.
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post #214 of 236
10/24/03 at 12:00pm
I wonder what the comparison would be between the original PB12 and the new iBook 12 in a graphics comparison, since for all intents and purposes, that is really the only difference between them.
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PowerBook G4 12"/1 GHz/1.25 GB RAM/60GB/Combo
iMac G3 333 MHz/96 MB...

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MacBook Pro 15" (Unibody)/2.4GHz Core 2 Duo/2 GB RAM/250GB HD/SuperDrive
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post #215 of 236
10/24/03 at 1:48pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
Here's the review of the Rev. A 12" Powerbook by Macworld; scroll down halfway to see the benchmarks. (It beats the iBook by more than 200% in most tests.)

Link.

that was in april!
any new comparisons PB12 vs g4Ibook12 with similar amount of ram?
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post #216 of 236
10/24/03 at 1:58pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Matsu
The original PB867 wiped the floor with the iBook 800 in real world tests.

Quote:
Originally posted by Gizzmonic
You got a link to any of that?

Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
Here's the review of the Rev. A 12" Powerbook by Macworld;

and then:
Quote:
Originally posted by NOFEER
that was in april!

Um yeah, that was the whole idea.

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post #217 of 236
10/24/03 at 2:10pm
Yeah, NOFEER, you're taking the replies out of order. Gizzmonic suggested that the G3 iBook was actually better at many non-Altivec enhanced tasks than the G4 PowerBook, so Placebo provided a link showing that the G4 PowerBook wiped the floor with the G3 iBook.

I think the G4 iBook is a bit too new to have any comprehensive benchmark testing done on it - there are two XBench results posted to the XBench website however. They're two different trials of the same iBook, an 800 MHz G4. The scores were 68 and 76, under Panther, but XBench is funky under Panther and it somehow always gets huge numbers for memory allocation (in the hundreds, this iBook got over 300 one time and over 500 another time!). So I would only compare to other systems running Panther.

From looking at the few XBench results from comptuers running Panther, it looks like the 12" 867 MHz PowerBooks are getting 80-85, and the 12" 1 GHz PowerBooks are getting 85-90. So they should be a bit faster than the G4/800 iBook - which is expected since they both have higher clock speeds.
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post #218 of 236
10/25/03 at 2:26am
The result shown on xlr8yrmac shows a fair bit more promise, be nice to see a sample of 10 or so machines to get a feel, the 800 looks like it is doing ok by the newer numbers.. spanks my poor little dvse500 an 933 would be even mucho betterer
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post #219 of 236
10/25/03 at 9:09am
which is best "value" ibook, most bang for the buck considering all with AE,BT
does it make sense to get the largest HD possible? Since all come standard with combo drive, is 1gz in real world better than 933 or 800? unless size is the question, is 933 that much slower than 1gz? If you need a 12 then there is little to add to this, but as far as "value" what makes the most sense.
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post #220 of 236
10/25/03 at 11:08am
Quote:
Originally posted by NOFEER
which is best "value" ibook, most bang for the buck If you need a 12 then there is little to add to this, but as far as "value" what makes the most sense.

I think 933 and 800 are both good value, but I dont really understand that 1GHz version.
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------------
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post #221 of 236
10/25/03 at 1:02pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Rewes
I think 933 and 800 are both good value, but I dont really understand that 1GHz version.

I agree. It's a tough decision between the rock bottom 12" ibook vs. the mid-range 14" 933MHz model, but I wouldn't remotely consider the 1GHz model.
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post #222 of 236
10/25/03 at 2:30pm
Quote:
Originally posted by NOFEER
does it make sense to get the largest HD possible?

I would definitely suggest doing a BTO 60 GB hard drive for anyone considering an iBook G4. You can't replace the hard drive without voiding the warranty, so if you go to the max now, it'll last you much longer.

I think the 800 and 933 represent equally good values. The 1 GHz makes little sense. It's a $150 boost in price for just 67 MHz more, a 7% speed boost for 12% more money. The other $50 goes into bumping the hard drive from 40 GB to 60 GB. I think if I were considering the 1 GHz iBook, I'd just get the 12" PowerBook instead and get all the nice features it has to offer - more cache, more compact, more RAM on the motherboard, spanning works by default, closed-lid operation, etc.

I guess 1 GHz is a psychological barrier and so they'll charge you a premium to get the top of the line model. It will also depreciate the fastest - I'd like to see how selling prices of 933 MHz and 1 GHz iBooks compare in a year or two.
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post #223 of 236
10/25/03 at 6:05pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Luca Rescigno
The dimensions are the same. In fact, the case is almost the exact same as the old case - the only differences are the color scheme and the slot-loading drive.

EDIT: Damn your loins, MCQ

New color scheme? Arent they still white? (unfortunately)..........
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post #224 of 236
10/25/03 at 6:10pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Luca Rescigno
...if you go to the max now, it'll last you much longer.

This kind of thinking is THE financial bedrock of the PC industry. People always think that if they pay more now, they will save more later. It does seems logical to opt for a better specification in the belief that your machine will still be comparable with contemporary technology in, say 3 years time.

BUT THINK! Are you that disciplined to actually keep that machine for 3 years? I expect many of the people in these forum are not. They are not necessarily just spec-whores - they also admire ease-of-use, innovation, ergonomics and design. These things, almost by definition, progress with time. You will buy a new machine before you strictly have to.

If someone really NEEDS a SuperDrive or a 5400RPM HD NOW or in the near future (for sure), then get a machine with those features. If you are trying to future-proof your machine, forget it. Desire finds a way to make you reach into your pocket quicker than you might like.
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post #225 of 236
10/25/03 at 6:23pm
I was basing my suggestion on the fact that hard drive sizes have been increasing faster than other specs in recent years. I personally have a lot of data and the 30 GB drive in my iBook (which has been sold) wasn't big enough. But at the time, it was $100 to upgrade to a 40 GB, which wasn't worth it in my opinion. Now it's just $25 to go to 40 GB from 30 GB so that certainly seems worth it. $75 for the 60 GB seems like a fairly good deal, but only if you need that much room.
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post #226 of 236
10/25/03 at 10:34pm
Quote:
Originally posted by SonOfSylvanus
BUT THINK!

I have, and I'm 100% behind Luca. Laptop HDs are small relative to desktops, and cannot be upgraded without replacing the whole thing. HDs fill way too quickly. I thought 20GB was huge when I bought my iBook (more than twice the space as on my old desktop), but within six months I regretted not BTO'ing a bigger one. Processor/GPU speed don't matter so long as you're happy with your workflow, but HDs will fill up even if you don't change your workflow, and the options are then unsavory (delete or archive). In fact, on every computer I've ever owned, the HD has been the first thing that's been upgraded (I'm just a young whuppersnapper who only dates to a LC). Stock HD and stock RAM are the two things that simply will not usefully last you for 3 years. Only RAM can you upgrade later.

Actually, SoS, you have a good point if you generalize it a bit more. In terms of bang-for-your-buck, you're always better off buying low-end and trading up sooner than buying high-end and keeping it longer. But the perfect efficiency is to buy the maxed-out low-end - it has 90% of the functionality of the maxed-out high-end, at a fraction of the cost.
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post #227 of 236
10/26/03 at 5:13am
Quote:
Originally posted by Luca Rescigno
... I personally have a lot of data and the 30 GB drive in my iBook (which has been sold) wasn't big enough. But at the time, it was $100 to upgrade to a 40 GB, which wasn't worth it in my opinion. Now it's just $25 to go to 40 GB from 30 GB so that certainly seems worth it. $75 for the 60 GB seems like a fairly good deal, but only if you need that much room.

I think so, too.

When I ordered my May 2002 iBook/700 going from 20GB to 30GB was $100, and I did upgrade. With an iBook, where it's difficult to swap HDs and voids the warranty, it's always sensible to spec the largest capacity Apple offers (as long as it's financially sensible, YMMV).

Doubling capacity for $75 is a no-brainer, especially when Apple does it for you, and it'll be covered under warranty (and AppleCare).
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post #228 of 236
10/26/03 at 10:03am
Anyone know if Apple have upgraded the keyboard for the G4 iBook to PB standard or are we stuck with the plastic, wobbly ones?
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post #229 of 236
10/26/03 at 10:32am
Quote:
Originally posted by Mercenary_Angel
Anyone know if Apple have upgraded the keyboard for the G4 iBook to PB standard or are we stuck with the plastic, wobbly ones?

I read somewhere that the new keyboard is way better than the old one, but it´s still not as good as the on in PB.
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post #230 of 236
10/26/03 at 11:40am
Quote:
Originally posted by Mercenary_Angel
Anyone know if Apple have upgraded the keyboard for the G4 iBook to PB standard or are we stuck with the plastic, wobbly ones?

Went to Apple Store in Durham, NC yesterday for some hands on everything. The iBook G4 keyboard has been updated, it is no longer the clickity-clack cheap keyboard.

It felt as solid as a Powerbook keyboard to me. A night and day difference over the previous iBook.

They only had the 12 inch version in stock. Got a chance to turn on Expose, play some iTunes, was very nice, even with 256 megs.
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post #231 of 236
10/26/03 at 12:02pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Towel
... I'm 100% behind Luca... HDs fill way too quickly... Stock HD and stock RAM are the two things that simply will not usefully last you for 3 years. Only RAM can you upgrade later.

True.
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post #232 of 236
10/26/03 at 2:27pm
Well, I've had some bad experiences with HDs running out of room in the past. Until April of 2002, I was on a PowerMac 8100/100 with a 1 GB hard drive. That 1 GB hard drive was horrible. I was almost always under 50 MB free. Even that was an improvement from the computer I had for years until I got the 8100 - I had a 7100/80 for about four years until late 2001 when I got the 8100. That only had a 700 MB hard drive.

In April 2002 I got a Wallstreet PowerBook but it only had 2 GB. Later that year I traded up to a PowerMac G4 dual 500 with a 40 GB hard drive. That made me happy . And then, I still wasn't satisfied so I put another hard drive in the case, an 80 GB.

I don't like being low on hard drive space. Had the 160 GB hard drive upgrade option been available on the eMac when I bought it, I would have gone for it. But I'm still sitting pretty with the internal 60 GB and an external 80 GB.
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post #233 of 236
10/26/03 at 4:35pm
Does anyone know if the G4 processor is the Motorola or the IBM version?
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post #234 of 236
10/26/03 at 5:08pm
Quote:
Originally posted by FormatC2
The iBook G4 keyboard has been updated, it is no longer the clickity-clack cheap keyboard.

It felt as solid as a Powerbook keyboard to me. A night and day difference over the previous iBook.

Yes, the iBook keyboard is much improved over the previous iteration (although I didn't really mind that last one), almost what the Aluminum keyboard is but not quite _the Alus still get top honors as the most tactile friendly, best laptop keyboard Apple's got going right now. But kudos to the improved iBook, it's really nice.
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post #235 of 236
10/26/03 at 8:03pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Dr_Holistic
Does anyone know if the G4 processor is the Motorola or the IBM version?

There is no IBM version.

Motorola makes the G4.
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post #236 of 236
10/28/03 at 10:13pm
Now that the iBook G4 hardware developer note is out, hopefully everyone can rest assured that they did in fact use a fully capable 7445. It has a fully functional AltiVec unit. End of story.
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