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iBook G4 - Page 3

post #81 of 236
10/22/03 at 10:41am
Quote:
Originally posted by beaverclea
It's not something that can be added on later, at least internally.

You can't get internal Bluetooth with the iBook. It's an external module that you insert into one of the available USB ports.

EDIT - I am adding this here so people don't read the whole page before seeing that I take this post back. It seems an internal BT module is available.
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post #82 of 236
10/22/03 at 11:02am
Oh, is this that Dlink thing then?



Why do they make it sound like you have to get it from an online order and not the stores?

EDIT: I just saw this at Apple's iBook tech specs section:

Quote:
AirPort Extreme ready; optional internal Bluetooth module available

Now I'm confused...
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post #83 of 236
10/22/03 at 11:05am
double post (but not as bad as a bump, I guess)
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post #84 of 236
10/22/03 at 11:08am
Quote:
Originally posted by pscates
Oh, is this that Dlink thing then?



Why do they make it sound like you have to get it from an online order and not the stores?

right, and make it sound like it's built in,
quote:
Bluetooth-ready
Support for Bluetooth is built into every new iBook G4 model. Like AirPort Extreme, Bluetooth connects wirelessly to digital devices like Bluetooth-enabled mobile phones, handhelds and peripherals. Whats more, you can even choose to enjoy a cable-free desktop with Apples Bluetooth-enabled wireless keyboard and mouse. Operating within a short range, it enables wireless data transfers between a rapidly growing list of Bluetooth-savvy peripherals. Using iSync, for instance, you can use Bluetooth to synchronize your personal information between your iBook, your mobile phone and your Palm OS-based handheld.

nice books though so i'll buy the 15" 1.25Ghz PB
alles sal reg kom
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alles sal reg kom
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post #85 of 236
10/22/03 at 11:08am
AFAIK, the bluetooth on the BTO machines is internal. I think if you don't get it BTO, then you have to get an external bluetooth module.

From technical specs on the Apple website:

"optional internal Bluetooth module available"
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post #86 of 236
10/22/03 at 11:15am
Quote:
Originally posted by Gabid
Someone over in the MacRumors forums pointed out that nowhere on the new iBook pages is any mention made of the Velocity Engine. Since I was looking for a break from getting ready for my dissertation proposal I became intrigued.

Sure enough, on every other G4-based system mention is made of AltiVec under Tech Specs. Heck, for the iMac and eMac there is even a special G4 tab that has a little picture of what the VE does!

Propbably this is nothing more than intriguing, but I wonder if there is any chance this means anything (and seeing as how there is no Developers Note up yet, looks like we can't find out until someone gets to play with one of these).



That is kinda weird. I highly doubt it's some kind of G4 without Altivec though. It's an integral part of the chip.

I'm still surprised they didn't use the 7457/7447 in the iBook. The whole transition to that chip, which has been awaited for years now, was really quite a let down, because the new PowerBooks didn't seem to increase in battery life, and by all accounts don't feel any cooler, and to top it off, they dropped the L3 cache. In that sense, the PowerBooks got worse when they went to the 7457.
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post #87 of 236
10/22/03 at 11:19am
It's official the G3 is dead. Apple won't use the 750 gx.

Now all Apple's computer run altivec. This is a great new for more altivec optimisation, even in the OS.
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post #88 of 236
10/22/03 at 11:19am
I think the reason this isn't beng promted highly by apple is because it really isn't that much of an upgrade. I'm begining to wonder if it is the same motherboard with a few new chips soldered in place. I'm begining to believe this is just a grab for the holiday market.

Lets face it the base ram is 128M soldered in and another 128 in the expansion slot. This release is nothing more than a slight tweak to the old machines. It will be interesting to see the perfromance figures though.

Initially like everyone else I was very excited with this new iBook. Now that I've had a few minutes to digest the product it looks a bit lacking. Maybe the performance figures will change my mind, but at this point I'm not hopeing for all that much.

Dave



Quote:
Originally posted by thuh Freak
why the fvck would apple have not changed their fp for this? I go to the front page, and I see a big advert for a free program, FOR WINDOWS! I would think that the iBook line is more important than iTunes+iTMS. And yet iBook G4 gets a small mention in the bottom corner.

I really like the PBG5 possibilities now though. I was trying to be pessimistic, and hope in a year. Now it looks far too likely for January.
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post #89 of 236
10/22/03 at 11:26am
Quote:
Originally posted by wizard69
I think the reason this isn't beng promted highly by apple is because it really isn't that much of an upgrade. I'm begining to wonder if it is the same motherboard with a few new chips soldered in place. I'm begining to believe this is just a grab for the holiday market.


On the up side reloading the Apple front page will ocassionally show the new iBook as the big center graphic (relegating iTunes to one of the small squares at the bottom).
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post #90 of 236
10/22/03 at 11:33am
Quote:
Originally posted by Curufinwe
FYI to all - the Radeon 9200 is pretty weak.

The mobility Radeon 9200 is actually pretty good. Its no MR9600 but still way better than the 7500.
"In a world without walls and fences, who needs Windows and Gates?"
15" AlBook
------------
1.25GHz eMac
12" 1GHZ iBook
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"In a world without walls and fences, who needs Windows and Gates?"
15" AlBook
------------
1.25GHz eMac
12" 1GHZ iBook
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post #91 of 236
10/22/03 at 11:36am
Quote:
Originally posted by Curufinwe
FYI to all - the Radeon 9200 is pretty weak. Don't know about the mobile version, but the desktop version of the 9200 is slapped around by the desktop version of the FX 5200 in the pb 12" see
http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Ha...92p/index.html

All this after it was pretty much settled that the Mobility 7500 in the iBooks was at least as good as the FX 5200go in the pb 12"

I really hope this isn't a downgrade in overall performance. And of course losing the monitor spanning hack would be even worse if the new cards can't be uncrippled.

The figures that the ATI Radeon 9200 is posting in the review aren't bad at all.

Put it this way, I have the GeForce 4 Ti4200 at home in my PC, and all of the cards in the review are in the same ballpark performance-wise.
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post #92 of 236
10/22/03 at 11:37am
Yes but apple is advertising that the cache (L2) runs at full processor speed. I thought at one time that the cahce (L2) on the 7455 ran at half speed. Maybe somebody with a motorola manual can verify this. It is still a mystery to me which processor is actually in these machines.

Thanks
dave


Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
It appears to be using the old 7455/7445 G4s instead of the new 7s (because of the 256 rather than 512 cache). I wonder why.
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post #93 of 236
10/22/03 at 11:39am
Quote:
Originally posted by Curufinwe
Arghh!!! Feeling... So... Conflicted...

First of all this rocks for most people! Now folks can get a low end ibook with combo drive for 1100 or less if you are a student. This is hugely important psychologically. Students will see an immediate improvement in MP3 ripping times 8)

Seriously though, The very cheap portable G4 will tempt some creative windows types to get one as a little video editor or photo studio. And great timing with the panther publicity. I can see lots of macheads owning much older machines making this their bridge machine to get current while they wait for the G5s to fall in price and spread downward in the lineup.


There are just several issues for us "iBook power users" that might be disconcerting. \

If indeed this chip is an older 7455 this is mixed news - what about the ibook's famed battery life? Did Apple put the rest of the components on a tighter power budget or something or will we see battery life drop from the 3.5+ hours to the 2+ hours range where the powerbooks have been hovering recently? If this is not the 7455 could it be an IBM G3+Altivec rebranded? Is there something in the bus speed/ L2 cache numbers which say definitively either way?

Also, what about all of the work that went into hacking the ATI 7500 graphix cards to support monitor spanning? That hack made the iBook into suitable main computer for poorer 2D creatives who need screen real estate but not the horsepower for video encoding and such. I hope that the ATI 9200 has not been sealed off by Apple from enabling these supported features in order to protect the now precarious position of the little powerbooks. I do have a suspicion that this is why the video cards changed though.

Lastly and least importantly, it seems Apple is taking some cues from people that the all white look was not going over so well. The new iBooks appear to be clad similarly to the previous G3 800 generation internally (Silver inner faces), but has the transparent outer shell returned? To my mind the opaque white outer casing on the G3 900 iBooks looks terrible, and I can't tell from the gallery photos whether the outer is back the the good old days. If they do have a transparent casing with this slot loading drive I deem these the most beautiful iBooks ever!

So in essence, I'm hopefull, but uneasy until some of the uncertainty is cleared up.

Peace,

Curufinwe

It's far more likely that Apple has chosen the ATI Radeon 9200 because:

a) Apple wants the iBook to have a competitive graphics chip. The ATI 7500 was showing its age...

or

b) ATI may have EOL'd (end of lifed) the Radeon 7500. If so the chip would not be available to OEMs for much longer.
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post #94 of 236
10/22/03 at 11:42am
I think I've mentioned here before that I have been giving strong consideration to buying a laptop for my 4th year of school.

I'm a University student, so as far as my budget goes, iBook G4 = I'm sold!!!

Very nice update.

I also believe that this bump to the iBook line means that we will see G5 Powerbooks soon. Does this mean it will happen tomorrow? No. In the near future though? Definately.
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post #95 of 236
10/22/03 at 11:47am
A moment of silence please for the G3
...
..
..

orange you just glad?
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orange you just glad?
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post #96 of 236
10/22/03 at 11:55am
Quote:
Originally posted by clonenode
It HAS been a long time since apple put a speed, processor or ANY number on a Mac.

G3? G4? G5?

It seems to me that ALL of those machines had the processor name on the machine. Duh.

Every PowerBook G4 ever made also has the processor name on it.

But you're right that this is the first time for a consumer machine since before the arrival of the G3 processor.
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post #97 of 236
10/22/03 at 11:56am
Quote:
It is still a mystery to me which processor is actually in these machines.

Its a 7455 without the ext L3 cache. Don't you think that Moto now has a few of these lying around and at a pretty low price.

G4 in an iBook at a low price--for the masses. If you want bleeding edge get a G5.
four more beers, four more beers
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four more beers, four more beers
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post #98 of 236
10/22/03 at 11:58am
Hate to break the party, but Apple is still selling the G3 iBook. Pretty nice deal, for $899.
14" iBook
700MHz G3
640MB RAM

Kecksy's Korner
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14" iBook
700MHz G3
640MB RAM

Kecksy's Korner
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post #99 of 236
10/22/03 at 12:08pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Kecksy
Pretty nice deal, for $899.

Not really, it only has a CD-ROM drive. For $300 more, get a combo, G4, slot loading, video card etc...

But I know what you're saying.
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post #100 of 236
10/22/03 at 12:08pm
Quote:
Originally posted by rajk
AFAIK, the bluetooth on the BTO machines is internal. I think if you don't get it BTO, then you have to get an external bluetooth module.

From technical specs on the Apple website:

"optional internal Bluetooth module available"

You are right. Actually, I had edited my post at the top of this page with a "as far as I can tell" at the end... didn't take for some reason though.

After my first read through the specs page I didn't notice the internal reference, and was making that assumption based on these images (from the online store):

For the iMac's customization page (which I know is internal):




Now from the iBook's customization page:



I took the lack of "internal" there as an indication that it was an external module. Bad murbot, research properly before opening your pie hole.

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post #101 of 236
10/22/03 at 12:13pm
curufinwe raises an interesting point about the iBook monitor spanning hack
the linked PC card review page mentions the 9200 has "twin monitor support"
however, it also mentions that some features are "locked" and require BIOS flash

give it a few days and we'll see if the OF Spanning Hack works
(emailed the guy at macparts.de/ibook to ask if he'll test it)

if you can still Hack to get spanning, this iBook will fly.
"I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them" -Isaac Asimov
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"I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them" -Isaac Asimov
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post #102 of 236
10/22/03 at 12:24pm
Well it´s only matter of days that i´am gonna buy my first mac ever

800MHz PowerPC G4
12-inch TFT Display
256MB DDR266 memory
DVD/CD-RW drive
ATI Mobility Radeon 9200

+40GB Ultra ATA drive and Pather 1000. Finally a mac that I can afford (I´am a student). I´am so happy
"In a world without walls and fences, who needs Windows and Gates?"
15" AlBook
------------
1.25GHz eMac
12" 1GHZ iBook
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"In a world without walls and fences, who needs Windows and Gates?"
15" AlBook
------------
1.25GHz eMac
12" 1GHZ iBook
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post #103 of 236
10/22/03 at 12:28pm
With all of the issues on the latest 15" PB (white spots, latches) and even the 800 and 900 iBook (logic board problems), anybody want to take a guess as to any quality control problems that will arise? I'm a bit hesitant to be first in line for one of the defective machines.

http://www.macopinion.com/columns/ro.../21/index.html
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post #104 of 236
10/22/03 at 12:32pm
Several questions come to mind:

As noted by a few folks, the fact that the Apple Tech Specs page for the iBook nowhere mentions the velocity engine is damn odd. It's trumpeted in the Tech pages for every other product.

If the iBooks are using the 7455 G4 at 1GHz, how are they dissipating the heat? It was my understanding that getting that chip to work in the 12" PBook was not possible due to the heat, even with an aluminum shell. You're telling me that they have suddenly been able to get it to work in the iBook?

I'm just hypothesizing, but Apple might be using the IBM 750 FX w/o the velocity engine and calling it a G4. Maybe just as a stopgap until the 750 GX is ready?

It's all rather curious.
neumac
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post #105 of 236
10/22/03 at 12:35pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
It's official the G3 is dead. Apple won't use the 750 gx.

Now all Apple's computer run altivec. This is a great new for more altivec optimisation, even in the OS.

I am not so sure that I agree with this statement. Apple would use a 750gx if it provided a higher GHz than G4's, if it provided a better bus than the G4, if it cost less than the G4, or if it consumed vastly less power than the G4 and still had Altivec. There are still some potentially compelling reasons to use the 750fx. Besides, if Apple wants to ditch Moto completely, then they are going to need a G4 replacement that is not a 970 so that they can differentiate their products.

I think that there is still a good chance that the next iBook revision will not have a Motorola CPU but will support Altivec and it sure won't be a G5.
King Felix
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post #106 of 236
10/22/03 at 12:39pm
Quote:
Originally posted by cowerd
Its a 7455 without the ext L3 cache. Don't you think that Moto now has a few of these lying around and at a pretty low price.

G4 in an iBook at a low price--for the masses. If you want bleeding edge get a G5.


Otherwise known as a 7445. Full AltiVec engine, no L3 cache support, 256K L2 cache (running at full processor speed). All on-chip caches run at full processor speed, it is the off-chip L3 that runs at a fractional rate (or L2 back in the days of off-chip L2).

These look like sweet machines. If I didn't have all my money busy doing other things right now, I'd pick one up. Still might in 6 months or so.
Providing grist for the rumour mill since 2001.
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Providing grist for the rumour mill since 2001.
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post #107 of 236
10/22/03 at 12:42pm
Quote:
Originally posted by neumac
[BI'm just hypothesizing, but Apple might be using the IBM 750 FX w/o the velocity engine and calling it a G4. Maybe just as a stopgap until the 750 GX is ready?[/B]

That's an interesting hypothesis, but 1) the FX has 512 L2 cache, not 256, and 2) they really couldn't do that, because the 750FX IS a G3. It's the chip that was in the previous iBook G3. Did they just start calling it a G3 for the heck of it? No, I don't think so. Altivec is a necessary and defining feature of the G4.
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post #108 of 236
10/22/03 at 12:45pm
Quote:
Originally posted by neumac
I'm just hypothesizing, but Apple might be using the IBM 750 FX w/o the velocity engine and calling it a G4. Maybe just as a stopgap until the 750 GX is ready?

No, that would be a legal disaster for Apple. You can't redefine what G4 means without facing a horrible class action suit from consumers who thought that well, they were getting a G4 in their iBooks. There is NO way that a 650fx is in the current iBook and Apple is just calling it a G4.
King Felix
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post #109 of 236
10/22/03 at 12:47pm
I'm still baffled why Apple still offers the 14" iBook with the same # of pixels as the 12". They don't say it on the tech specs (XGA?) but I'm assuming they're both still 1024x768.. which is fine for the 12" but crappy for the 14". They really should increase the res. a little bit on those things.
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post #110 of 236
10/22/03 at 12:51pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by eVo
I'm still baffled why Apple still offers the 14" iBook with the same # of pixels as the 12". They don't say it on the tech specs (XGA?) but I'm assuming they're both still 1024x768.. which is fine for the 12" but crappy for the 14". They really should increase the res. a little bit on those things.

with you all the wey on that one eVo
Because the people who are crazy enough to think thay can change the world, are the ones who do
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Because the people who are crazy enough to think thay can change the world, are the ones who do
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post #111 of 236
10/22/03 at 12:58pm
XGA means 1024x768. There are a number of definitions like that:

VGA = 640x480
SVGA = 800x600
XGA = 1024x768
SXGA = 1280x1024
SXGA+ = 1400x1050
UXGA = 1600x1200

WXGA = 1366x768 (according to Dictionary.com although I've also seen this used to describe 1280x800 resolution)
WSXGA = 1440x900
WSXGA+ = 1680x1050
WUXGA = 1920x1200

Anyway, it would be nice if they put an 1152x864 screen on the 14" iBook. It would be weird to have a screen resolution higher than the 15" PowerBook (something like 1280x960 vs. the PowerBook's 1280x854), but an 1152x864 screen would be just what the 14" iBook needs to earn some respect from the Mac community. Sure, computer-illiterate consumers see the 14" screen as an advantage, but someone in the know will realize that if the resolutions are the same, the larger screen only hurts mobility.
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post #112 of 236
10/22/03 at 1:01pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Yevgeny
No, that would be a legal disaster for Apple. You can't redefine what G4 means without facing a horrible class action suit from consumers who thought that well, they were getting a G4 in their iBooks. There is NO way that a 650fx is in the current iBook and Apple is just calling it a G4.

I would be the first to agree, but at the moment I can't rectify the two issues raised:

Why would Apple ignore the addition of the velocity engine to the iBook? That might well be the single biggest gain in this upgrade.

How can they dissipate the heat from a 1GHz 7455?
neumac
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neumac
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post #113 of 236
10/22/03 at 1:06pm
Klaus, from MacParts.de/iBook spanning hack fame had this to say

Quote:
i obviously can´t say for sure if it will still work since they were just released today and i doubt anybody has one yet. i´m pretty sure though that the hack will still work since apple didn´t try to disable it with other recently introduced macs (emac, imac).
i think the radeon 9200 will be faster than the geforce used in the new 12" powerbook. this was the case already with the radeon 7500 in the g3 ibook compared to the older geforce chip in the first 12" powerbook model. however, the current powerbooks all offer dvi which is important if you want to use an apple display.
usually i receive feedback quickly after a new revision is available and i will post information on my website as soon as it´s save to make a statement.
there are only two reasons why the hack might not work: either the chip only supports one display (this is highly unlikely since all modern chips support 2 displays). the other reason would be a change in the driver architecture (this would most likely happen solely to make it harder to patch) but i dont think apple will do this. there´s tons of people who don´t know about the patch and thus would buy a powerbook or who wouldn´t want to take the risk (which - as you know - is minimal).

so once the first ones ship and somebody tries it, we'll get confirmation.
until then the presumption is that some form of the Spanning Hack should still work
"I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them" -Isaac Asimov
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"I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them" -Isaac Asimov
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post #114 of 236
10/22/03 at 1:17pm
It's great! I love that it's now slot loading....

Does it ship with Panther?
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post #115 of 236
10/22/03 at 1:35pm
Quote:
Originally posted by rajk
AFAIK, the bluetooth on the BTO machines is internal. I think if you don't get it BTO, then you have to get an external bluetooth module.

From technical specs on the Apple website:

"optional internal Bluetooth module available"

where?
if you click on the link for BTO options; wireless; Bluetooth T6295ZM/A on the techspecs page of the new G4 ibook you get this
even the price is right
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post #116 of 236
10/22/03 at 1:36pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Akumulator
Does it ship with Panther?

alles sal reg kom
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post #117 of 236
10/22/03 at 1:42pm
I know that I'm engaging in sadistic, bestial, necrophilia, but

From the PBook pages: Processor and Memory: 1GHz PowerPC G4 processor with Velocity Engine

From the iMac and eMac Pages: Behind the PowerPC G4s unparalleled performance is its aptly named Velocity Engine .

From the PMac G5 Pages: Apple collaborated with IBM to leverage this industry-leading design for the G5, combining an optimized Velocity Engine

From the PMac G4 Pages: Velocity Engine for 128-bit single-instruction, multiple data (SIMD) processing

From the iBook Pages:
(cricket noises)

Okay, maybe I'm just experiencing X-Files withdrawalbut
neumac
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neumac
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post #118 of 236
10/22/03 at 1:43pm
Quote:
Originally posted by gar
where?
if you click on the link for BTO options; wireless; Bluetooth T6295ZM/A on the techspecs page of the new G4 ibook you get this
even the price is right

That's probably just for people who don't get it internally. Look a few lines up, under Wireless Support and you see this:



The internal module in the iMac is the same price, as well.
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post #119 of 236
10/22/03 at 1:45pm
Quote:
Originally posted by gar

Is that a no, or are you shaking your head at my ignorance?
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post #120 of 236
10/22/03 at 1:45pm
Quote:
Originally posted by shetline
A consolidation of all the major differences I could think of between the $US1599 1GHz 12" PowerBook and the $US1099 800 MHz G4 iBook:

12" G4 PowerBook advantages
  • Faster by 200 MHz.
  • Double L2 cache (512K vs. 256K).
  • 10 GB more drive space (40GB vs 30GB).
  • More expandable memory (1152MB vs. 640MB) -- expandable without throwing 128MB away in order to add more memory.
  • DVI video.
  • Better video card (NVIDIA GeForce FX Go5200 vs. ATI Mobility Radeon 9200, both 32 MB).
  • Monitor spanning
  • Bluetooth included.
  • Midrange-enhancing third speaker.
  • Analog audio input.
  • Smaller (0.17" thinner, 0.3" narrower, 0.5" less deep).
  • Lighter (by 0.3 lb., 4.6 lb. vs. 4.9 lb.)
  • Nicer looking Aluminum case (although that's subjective), with perhaps better heat dissipation. (I'd imagine the iBook's fan might run a bit more often to get rid of heat that isn't shed as easily through a plastic shell).
12" G4 iBook advantages
  • $US500 cheaper.
  • Perhaps more rugged than the PowerBook.
  • One more hour of rated battery usage (6 vs.5), with a slightly more capacious battery (50 watt hours vs. 47).

I've owned a 12' ibook before i sold and upgraded to a 12' powerbook, and you're completely forgetting the wonderful keyboard on the Al powerbook!! it's awesome...
DVI out and analog input i think are huge differences...but i think this iBook is a strong update from Apple...
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