14" iBook defies logic.

Absolute nonsense! I'm looking to replace my Pismo, and I wasn't seriously considering an iBook until they introduced the 14" model. I think it's a necessary middle ground between the cheap, ultra portable 12" iBook and the expensive, yet sexy, G4 titanium.

It's really not that much bulkier than the 12" ibook, it's barely an inch longer and wider, and still just a little over an inch thick, it's a heck of a lot sleeker than my Pismo. And at $1799, which is only $300 more than the 12" model, it's a steal! Great price/performace ratio, especially with the combo drive. This thing is a good $1000 cheaper than a similarly equipped pismo of a year ago, how can you complain?

I think this is going to open up a whole new midrange for Apple, something for people who were put off by the 12" ibook's screen size, and the titanium's high price. They sold over a million iBooks in the seven months the new models were available, and I can see them selling a million of the 12" and a million of the 14" in the coming year. Unless they get a screaming G4 chip and a higher res screen in the TiBook fast, I expect that machine will be the one to lose serious sales to the 14" ibook.

Yes, I admit, the 14" ibook's lack of a higher-resolution screen is indeed a flaw, but I expect we'll see an upgrade to that when the ibook's video hardware is updated. I'm sure the 128 rage mobility chip would start to choke at a higher res, and it would be kind of embarassing to have a higher res screen than the titanium.

All in all, I do think that this is a solid offering, and is a sign that apple is finally getting a handle on it's price versus performance problems of yore.

so.. um, stop smoking the crack!

ciao,

michael

[seeing as how this is the first reply, I guess I really don't need to quote him, whoops, *snip snip*]

[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: scadboy ]</p>

I don't know tonton. There are a lot of people who wanted a larger screen... but with the same resolution, and the hefty price increase, I'm afraid you may be right.

You're also stuck getting your 256 MB of RAM in 2 chips! If you want more than 256 (and really, who doesn't) you have to take one (or both) of the 128 MB chips out and replace it! That's really crappy..

On the other hand, it's still way cheaper than the PowerBook, and pretty fast to boot...

I'd sure like to see one for myself.

[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: murbot ]</p>

i'm sure there's enough market out there to buy it. many pismo owners may be looking to upgrade. so, the people who don't want the big one can get a good one for 1500.....there is a market for the big ibook, but i'm not sure how large it is

$300 isn't what I would call "hefty," I actually think it's quite reasonable, especially with the extra RAM, and, yeah yeah yeah, I know that a 128MB chip for an ibook goes for like $0.50 right now, but still, it's something. The fact that it takes up two sockets is shitty, but just look at the price for a single 512MB chip for iBooks right now, even generic ram is still between <a href="http://www.ramseeker.com/ibook.shtml" target="_blank">$150-300.</a>

I am indeed one of those Pismo owners looking to upgrade, and the 14" ibook might be just what I'm looking for. I really think tonton is being a tad overdramatic in saying it "defies logic," and will be "the worst flop ever," defying logic would be giving it a bigger screen at 800x600... now that would be funny...

Anywho,

michael

[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: scadboy ]</p>

I'm sure plenty of people will get it. I love my 12.1" screen, but sometimes I feel it's just too small. I agree that they should've had a better resolution though.

The biggest thing, actually, watching DVDs! I have nothing against "smaller dots" so much a desire for the visual impact of the larger 14" display. My pismo is perfect for watching DVDs, presenting work to clients, and showing stuff off in class, the same things on my b/f's iBook (with the 12" display) just look, less imressive.

So while a 14" display with a higher resolution would be ideal I'd certainly settle for the current model.

Oh, and I do suffer from astigmatism, which doesn't help any.

ciao,

michael

[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: scadboy ]</p>

if they improved the resolution of the 14"ibook, they have to fix the powerbooks at the same time so the powerbook could still stand alone as the best laptop

while a mini ti would be pretty cool, that's all it'd be. there's going to be a small segment who get the 14" ibook but probalby an even smaller segment for a mini ti. it would be more of a toy; an extra thing to have jsut for the sake of having it and it's cool factor. a very small portion would find it as handy or usable...(this is assuming the mini ti would be like a sub portable sorta like the sony picturebook w/o camera)

[quote]Originally posted by tonton:
<strong>A thought: Apple "blew up" the form factor of the 12.1" iBook to accommodate the 14" screen. Any chance they'll make a "mini Ti" with a 13" screen {drools}?</strong><hr></blockquote>

tonton: You hit a raw nerve here. Is it time to revive the <a href="http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000014" target="_blank">3 lbs sub-PowerBook</a> thread?

I have the same issue with the 14" iBook. I really don't understand why anybody would pay good money to replace their trusty Pismo. As far as I can tell, the 14" iBook doesn't offer a single advantage over the Pismo. In fact, it even drops the PC Card slot and the dual battery bays.

As I've said before, I'll happily stick with my 4.9 lbs 12" iBook.

Escher

[quote]Originally posted by tonton:
<strong>But for every day use, the 12.1" iBook just seems more portable, and as such, more practical. I suppose if you don't carry it back and forth from home to work/school on a daily basis, the bigger display might be preferable.</strong><hr></blockquote>

My Pismo basically sits on my desk 6 days out of 7, and I don't think the iBook would be any different if I got it. So, the bigger the screen, the better! When I have moved it around, I've never really considered my Pismo to be "bulky" but it is larger in most dimensions than the iBook, except I believe it may be a scant bit lighter, if not the same weight as the 14" model.

[quote]Originally posted by tonton:
<strong>I tend to watch DVDs at home on my TV (or quite honestly -- dirty movies in my bedroom ;p), or in public on the bus or plane, so the lack of privacy of my big TiBook screen actually bothers me and I'd prefer a smaller screen.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't own a TV, yes, I'm one of those people, much like Steve, I think it really does rot your brain. I have a nice 19" monitor (crt) that I hookup to my Pismo when I'm watching DVD's at home that does the job quite well, much better than any tv, anyway. I do download some TV shows, like southpark, futurama, the family guy, but I don't actually own a TV, now intend to purchase one. Just don't have the space in my tiny apartment.

[quote]Originally posted by tonton:
<strong>A thought: Apple "blew up" the form factor of the 12.1" iBook to accommodate the 14" screen. Any chance they'll make a "mini Ti" with a 13" screen {drools}?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Dear me, now that would be nice... We still haven't seen that "executive" bare bones notebook Steve mentioned some, oh, two years ago. He mentioned that he saw a need for a really basic, small, notebook with really nothing more than a display, keyboard, , and a harddrive, for internet use on the go. Something that could be superslim, and stylin'.

[quote]Originally posted by Escher:
<strong> I have the same issue with the 14" iBook. I really don't understand why anybody would pay good money to replace their trusty Pismo. As far as I can tell, the 14" iBook doesn't offer a single advantage over the Pismo. In fact, it even drops the PC Card slot and the dual battery bays.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Um, In the year and a half I've owned my Pismo, I've used the PC card slot exactly.... um, never. And I only have one battery anyway. Besides, you can sleep-swap the iBook's batteries, yes? The 14" also features a larger battery, which, despite the added consumption of the 14" display, does have the potential for increased lifespan between charges.

I did actually come to a decision, I'm hanging on to the pismo for a little while longer, I just ordered a 30GB IBM travelstar drive for it. Good deal from googlegear.com, $136 for the drive, pretty good, eh? I dropped a gig of RAM in it a month ago, and my current harddrive is so full, OS 9 (on the rare occassions I use OS 9), refuses to activate virtual memory. Which makes me wonder about how VM is doing in X, since I didn't notice much of a speedup after I upgraded, I have to wonder is X isn't running VM either.

The thing is, I have a line of credit from the Apple Store, and I need to use it before Jun 30 in order to qualify for the "6 months = no payments" dealie, and isn't that convenient two whole weeks before MWNY? So I'm hoping for something substantial in the notebook department before then.

anywho, I still think the 14" iBook rocks, and will be a good choice for many people, if not me, right now anyway.

ciao,

michael

Sorry, I am with tonton on this one! the 14' iBook seems about as useful as a chocolate tea pot!! Same specs, same video, same resolution, bigger package. I think that a far more useful use of R&D would have been to fit a 13.3" screen into the existing enclosure. It seems to have the space for it. This should have been a change accross the line. I also think that the CD model should have been replaced with the DVD at the low end. It seems as thought they are trying to clear the channel of the lower end books with this price drop. I think that Apple needs to realize that things cannot be everything to everyone. The 14.1" does not increase screen real estate, only carry on real estate. As for people that claim it to provide a potential upgrade for pismo owners, why in gods earth would a pismo owner upgrade a 2 year old machine to gain 100mhz and a snowy exterior?? At the moment a Ti is the only viable upgrade for pismo owners, and if price prohibits that then wait a while longer!!

[quote]Originally posted by warpd:
<strong>Sorry, I am with tonton on this one! the 14' iBook seems about as useful as a chocolate tea pot!! </strong><hr></blockquote>

Mmmmmm chocolate tea pot (drool)

I think the 14" is for people like me. I dont have a Mac now and, doggonit, 12inch is ok but... and 15.1 is awesome but... ouch, look at that price tag.

Also, look at what you get:
+ 8x8x8x24 DVD/CDR (instead of 4x4x6x24 in 12inch iBook)
+ 1 hour more battery life
+ 2 INCHES more screen size
+ 128mb more ram

on negative you have 500grams more weight and a 300$ 'heftier' price tag. I think that is an awesome deal and in fact, I shall be, hopefully, getting mine in 2 weeks.

I am buying a new Mac, not replacing one... so, for people like me, this is great!

Does anyone know of 14.1 vs 12.1 iBook comparisons, one on top of the other to see real size difference? I drew it on paper and it really seems minimal.

14" = 5.9 lbs.

Yuck.

And with *no* resolution upgrade?

I cannot believe they will sell many of them.

It's just odd.

Have a look at this page featuring a <a href="http://homepage.mac.com/bud_d/PhotoAlbum7.html" target="_blank">size comparison</a> between a PowerBook G4, 12" iBook and 14" iBook. [Link pointed out by <a href="http://www.go2mac.com" target="_blank">Go2Mac/PowerPage</a>.] I would say that there's a significant difference in size between the 12" and 14" iBooks.

As I've said many times before, the 12" iBook's small size (relative to other recent portables from Apple) is one of its strongest points for me.

Escher

You are all forgetting about older people with poor vision.

Many people have a hard time viewing the 12.1" iBook because of their bad far sighted eyes.

I'm sticking to my G3 Pismo firewire. I have an iBook too, but that is a iteration Japanese machine purchased last summer for my Japanese language apps. I've loved it for its size and ease of use, especially with iPod, but I couldn't see upgrading it to OSX since the G3 PB has such superion Video memory, and I have left a good thing well enough alone. If I were buying my first Mac and wanted a PB today, I'd probably go with the PB 14 ,but I don't think it is worth the difference in price and the gain in weight if portability and a second machine is what you are after....

PB 14???

you mean ibook 14 right?

I really don't know why they didn't drop a G4 chip into that 14" iBook.
Now that would make a huge difference.
But probably in price too. But as it is now, it's still overpriced.

here is what defies logic to me.....

other than portability why get an iBook? comparing 14" iBook to tne similar priced iMac you gain:
800 G4 (vs. 600 G3)
an 1" more screen (14 vs 15)
40GB more hard drive (20 vs 60)
a lot better graphics chip (8 vs 32DDR)
more memory expandability (640 vs 1024)
SuperDrive (vs. combo)

while i would prefer a portable machine. (but i want to stay under 2000 in price) for those spec differences I may just give it up to have the iMac....

while i know adding the G4 to iBook would make a purchase decision easier, it would also canibalize the PowerBook then, so that is not an option for Apple yet.....

I was considering getting an iBook this spring, and the choice of a 14.1" screen @ 1024x768 suddenly makes that purchase a lot more likely...

Why? It's easier on the eyes than 12.1" at the same resolution. I was never comfortable with that arrangement - and the difference in size and weight are mostly irrelevant for my purposes.

I don't see why anyone should be bothered by the newer iBook; it's not as though buyers weren't being given a choice. The cost of adapting the older enclosure for a larger display was surely low enough for the project to be profitable.


Cheers,

Mark.

[ 01-11-2002: Message edited by: Mark ]</p>

macXusr, that argument has been made time and again since portable computers appeared. But just as surely, there will always be people who need their PCs to be mobile - or simply prefer it.

Try hauling a 22-pound desktop from home to school. From school to work. Do it fifteen times a week. Take it to the park. To a meeting. A coffeeshop. A library. And over to a friend's. Take it with you on a trip. Then tell us what defies logic.

"The New iMac: the center of your digital life and upper-arm strength training?" <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />


Cheers,

Mark.

[quote]Originally posted by Mark:
<strong>
"The New iMac: the center of your digital life and upper-arm strength training?" <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
.</strong><hr></blockquote>


"Now with super-duper-extremely-long extesnion cord!"

[quote]Originally posted by macXusr:
<strong>
while i know adding the G4 to iBook would make a purchase decision easier, it would also canibalize the PowerBook then, so that is not an option for Apple yet.....</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, let's hope they bump up the Ti's to 800 G4's across the board. Then perhaps there's room for a G4 550 14" iBook. It would still lack a few other things such as a PC card to differentiate it from the Ti's.

Why do people compain about the iBook's price. I've seen tons of CD/128/10g/500mhz models for CAN$1399, or about US$875!!! My combo was a tad expensive (coulda saved me $300 if i waited 2 months), but at the time, even the PBG4 didn't have a combo!

To differentiate the models, I think we will see a superdrive on the PB first, despite the fact that even the iMac doesn't have a slot-load. Also, ADC connectivity cannot be far off for the PB.

pres

12" iBooks = Students
14" iBooks = Teachers

12" iBooks = Young Consumers
14" iBooks = Older, "visually challenged" Consumers

What about an 10.4" iBook without optical drive, just for me.

10" iBook = Escher

[ 01-11-2002: Message edited by: Escher ]</p>

The Apple store I ordered my iBook 14 has received the French ones and I will check them out tomorrow seeing that the QWERTY one will still take a week or so. If I see that, in real life, the iBook 14 is outrageous in size, I will get the combo iBook 12.

That page showing the size differences between all 3 'books made me think twice.

Grrr... I really hate this.

1024 x 768 on a 14" screen is way too blocky for my tastes. That's wasting a huge space with jumbo pixels! To make that iBook worthwhile, I'd hope for more like 1400 x 1050 screens featured in Dell 8100s. Visually impaired people aren't a huge majority in the computer market, but few people know about the difference resolution makes.

For that reason, I bet Apple will do okay with the 14" iBook. While maybe a few people will look at it and say "the DPI is too low for it's footpring", most will compare the two portables and immediately want the one with the "nice big screen". I've been to people's houses and changed the resolution without them even noticing...from about 640 x 480 to 1024 x 768! :eek:

2 things... MacAddict, you are right about screen resolutions. I just finished a 4 day consultancy job at a company that has only iMacs. They bought them 3 years ago and they were at 800x600 when they bought them, and by god, they are still at that resolution. I upped the rez to 1024x768 and made the default font 14 so they could see everything well. The next day I came back someone had changed everything back to 800x600... doh.

Its incredible how scared normal people are to explore an operating system. Just one guy is really curious about MacOS and had a blast with OS X on an iMac 500Mhz and wants to know more. Everyone else, for example, was still usuing the default 'beep' sound because they dared not venture into the control panles, afraid they could mess things up. Agh.


Secondly, I went to the Mac store and saw and compared the two iBooks, 14 and 12... and I am definetly getting the 14. Size is not THAT much bigger, I can still easily stuff it into a back pack and would not be afraid to rough it up a bit seeing that its made of tough plastics. The weight is really negligiable (I held both in each hand for about a minute and couldnt really tell)and the screen is definetly better on the 14. Also, as a customer that was checking out the iBooks also pointed out, if you squeeze the iBook 12 monitor on the sides on the edges, you will see the 'waves' appear on the screen... not with the 14.

Another factor: Somehow the 14 seemed faster, slightly, than the 12 eventhough they had exactly the same specs. BTW, iTunes goes perfectly smooth at full screen on the 14, the 12 was a bit jittery at times (in OS X).

I worked for about 15 minutes on the 14, then did the same things on the 12... then went back to the 14. There is no doubt in my mind, the extra 2 inches make a BIG difference. I am very happy to be getting the 14 and think the extra 300$ are more than worth it.

Will give a nice full report once I get the damn thing in my hands. Muahahaha...

ZO

-

I have mixed feelings about this ibook -- it seems to me that the reason the 12" ibooks were popular had a lot to do with their compact size, so it doesn't seem to make much sense to make it bigger (especially with no change in screen resolution). However, there is nothing wrong with having more choices, and Apple must have seen a demand for this kind of machine. I just hope that they realize how many people are waiting for a subnotebook -- there must be more people who want a subnotebook mac with no optical drives.

[quote]Originally posted by ZO:
<strong>The next day I came back someone had changed everything back to 800x600... doh.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

ZO: In my mind, keeping iMacs at 800x600 is not unreasonable. I would much rather be using 1024x768. But the CRTs that Apple uses in the iMac are of such poor quality that they won't do better than a 75Hz refresh rate at 1024 resolution (or is it even lower?). I don't know about you, but I get major headaches from anything lower than 85Hz.

I'm glad that you are happy with your choice of the 14" iBook. Personally, I wouldn't touch the 14" model with a ten foot pole. But I concede that some people may prefer the larger screen. I used similar logic to justify my BTO Wallstreet, which I got with the G3/250, because it had a large backside cache (the 233 had none), and the 12" 800x600 passive matrix screen, because I liked the large pixels and the 13" 1024x768 active matrix didn't fit in my budget at the time.

Escher

[ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: Escher ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by tonton:
<strong>

Wow! Great comparison. The 14" iBook is absolutely HUGE compared to the PowerBook! Yuck. This definitely fits the description of "Son of Pismo".</strong><hr></blockquote>
The I book 14 inch is a good choice. Compared to my first generation powerbook G3 300 costing me nearly 5000 $ in France, this machine is incredible : faster chip (600 mhz , more ram 256 mb versus 192) fire wire and usb links, dvd player, bigger HD , improved video card (i have a poor rage LT pro with 4 mb ram) less bulky, more battery life.
Of course my powerbook G3 300 is three years old , but considering the amount of money i spent with it ... i'll say that the i book 14 inch is much better.

However, the 14 inch i book is a new choice, he did not replace the 12 inch model. The two models coexist, for those who want a subnotebook like computer, they will choose the 12 inch, for those who want a bigger screen they will choose the 14 inch, where is the problem. The cost : a 14 inch screen cost more than a 12 inch. The minutarisation is a feature, but you have to remember that the 14 inch powerbook shares exactly the same mobo and technology than the 12 inch, so there is no reason for him to be cheaper.

Based on the amount of posts, and the interest, apparently the14" inch is a logical choice for some.

Some may complain about weight, but hey, some people also are stronger and don't notice the weight.

It's a matter of choice and don't you think it's a good thing that Apple's giving us more options?
Now if only they let us BTO some features in the new iMac.

LOL Tonton, indeed I hesitated to report about that screen wave thing, but in the end I thought it was a point to tell about because possibly some production corrections have been made, sturdier maybe?

In regards to your question, I would like to have the OPTION to up the rez to 1280x1024, if anything so that I can display that rez on an external monitor. I can't believe 1024x768 is max rez also on an external screen. Blah, that sucks.
To actually use a 14inch screen at 1280x1024 would be nuts. I have to get used to using 1280x1024 on a 19inch monitor, I dare think of that rez on a 14.