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Okay, Apple: make up your mind about the Dock.  

post #1 of 144
Thread Starter 
The dock's role used to be clear: it was used to switch between programs, launch apps, and let you shortcut to your favorite documents.

But in Panther, switching apps takes place in the "heads up" cmd-tab screen and the sidebar has killed the dock's role as a place to put your favorite files.

The dock's sole role is holding minimized windows.

What use is left for the dock? Will Apple kill it, or will it evolve?
post #2 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
The dock's role used to be clear: it was used to switch between programs, launch apps, and let you shortcut to your favorite documents.

But in Panther, switching apps takes place in the "heads up" cmd-tab screen and the sidebar has killed the dock's role as a place to put your favorite files.

The dock's sole role is holding minimized windows.

What use is left for the dock? Will Apple kill it, or will it evolve?


I have not purchased Panther yet and frankly have not informed myself that much about its new features. I will buy it eventually, though. Your post leads me to ask whether you can still choose to use the dock the old way, or have things switched around so much that that its actual functionality now is limited to holding minimized windows. If so, I am disappointed. I like my dock. Does this mean I should stick with 10.2?
tribalfusion?
tribalfusion?
post #3 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by Placebo
The dock's role used to be clear: it was used to switch between programs, launch apps, and let you shortcut to your favorite documents.

But in Panther, switching apps takes place in the "heads up" cmd-tab screen and the sidebar has killed the dock's role as a place to put your favorite files.

The dock's sole role is holding minimized windows.

What use is left for the dock? Will Apple kill it, or will it evolve?

Oh, evolve, for sure. Command-tab is still for more experienced users; the Dock remains one of the most visible and accessible elements to most users.

The Dock provides a lot more than holding minimized windows, too (actually I suspect that feature will be the first to change or even go, if any, as it's least good at that). It's a better app launcher than switcher, but it's a great launcher, and tells you what's running, and most importantly provides system-wide notification (Mail, iChat, application alerts).

I expect the next version of the Dock to enhance all of those qualities -- better, more organizable, launching abilities, to more information about each app that's running, and enhanced notification.

And who knows -- maybe something new.
post #4 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by Chinney
I have not purchased Panther yet and frankly have not informed myself that much about its new features. I will buy it eventually, though. Your post leads me to ask whether you can still choose to use the dock the old way, or have things switched around so much that that its actual functionality now is limited to holding minimized windows. If so, I am disappointed. I like my dock. Does this mean I should stick with 10.2?

Don't worry the dock works almost exactly the same in Panther as in Jag. Just add a 'hide' button to the application menus. I still have a copy of my Home and Documents folder in the dock for quick access. It takes too long to open a finder window, navigate to the appropriate folder and then double click on the file (but doing that is faster than in Jag).
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post #5 of 144
The difference in Panther, Chinney, is that hitting command-tab to cycle apps brings up the following window of running apps (in load order),



instead of hop-scotching around apps in the Dock. A good thing.
post #6 of 144
No, get 10.3 definitely. It's just Placebo's "time of the month". When Mac OS X came out, people complained there wasn't enough choice in the OS. Now people complain there's too much choice. It's AppleInsider, Go Figure.

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post #7 of 144
Thanks for the clarification.
tribalfusion?
tribalfusion?
post #8 of 144
Hmm de dee. Some comments:
1. Apple seems to be realizing that having one Dock do everything (switch apps, keyboard switch, launch, hold folders & files, trash, hold windows) isn't necessarily great. The minimized (ha ha) importance of minimizing and the elimination of keyboard switching in the dock help quite a bit.
2. However, the Dock is still useful:
1. To launch apps
2. To do mousey app switching
3. To access a certain window while switching apps (cmd tab can't, though Expose can)
4. To hold the Trash
5. To keep files and folders you always want accessible, whether or not a Finder window is open and on top. Besides, the Finder's "new" toolbar (introd. in 10.0, replacing Beta's toolbar) can do this.
6. To do such things as tell iTunes to play without bringing the window forward
7. As a notification area, so Mail can tell you about new messages, for instance.
8. To hold minimized windows.
So it's still quite useful
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post #9 of 144
By the way... wasn't being able to close windows that have been minimized to the Dock supposed to be a new Panther feature? All I get when I right click on a Dock document now is a pop-up menu with the grayed-out title of the window -- same as before with Jaguar. I thought there'd now be a Close item in that pop-up menu.
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Peter came out and gave us medals
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post #10 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by shetline
By the way... wasn't being able to close windows that have been minimized to the Dock supposed to be a new Panther feature? All I get when I right click on a Dock document now is a pop-up menu with the grayed-out title of the window -- same as before with Jaguar. I thought there'd now be a Close item in that pop-up menu.

AFAIK, that's been a feature of beta Mac OS X's since forever, but it's never made a final version.
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post #11 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by shetline
By the way... wasn't being able to close windows that have been minimized to the Dock supposed to be a new Panther feature? All I get when I right click on a Dock document now is a pop-up menu with the grayed-out title of the window -- same as before with Jaguar. I thought there'd now be a Close item in that pop-up menu.

It's only there in Finder windows... no other apps. \
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post #12 of 144
The biggest issue I have with Mac OS X lately is something they've never fixed, and something recently brought to my attention again in Panther.

Command-Q means Quit
Command-W means Close Window

Command-W should not mean Close Window AND Quit
Command-W should not mean Close Tab

No apps should quit when you close the last window. NONE. ZERO. If I want to quit an app, I will choose Command-Q. If I want to close a window, I will choose Command-W.

And here's how it's linked to the Dock. Mac OS apps have always had functionality outside of their windows. Just look at the menubar. In a way, that menubar is a window in itself. In an ideal world, if you close the last window, the menubar will still be there. If you close the last window, the Dock icon will still be there, functioning, providing Dock menu access.

Having apps quit when you close the last window is not the Mac way. It's the Microsoft way. It's the X-Windows way, but it's not the freakin' Apple way. Neither of those two operating systems have global menubars or Dock Menus, or any traces of an application's running status when yo close the last window, that's why they must have those apps quit when you close them.
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post #13 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by Hobbes
The difference in Panther, Chinney, is that hitting command-tab to cycle apps brings up the following window of running apps (in load order),



instead of hop-scotching around apps in the Dock. A good thing.

Do people realise that you can get the same effect in Jaguar (I'm running 10.2.6) by pressing: Ctrl-Tab?

btw - as far as launching applications goes:
I personally like F10 Launch Studio, which is a neat little app launcher from Chronos - it was available from the .mac offerings at a discounted price... the offer has expired now, though.
less is more
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post #14 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by Eugene
Command-W should not mean Close Tab

Yes it should. Tabs are just another way of managing windows, and having one shortcut to close a web site if it's in a window alone and another shortcut to close it if it's in a tab together with other tabs would be very confusing.


Quote:
Originally posted by Eugene
Having apps quit when you close the last window is not the Mac way. It's the Microsoft way. It's the X-Windows way, but it's not the freakin' Apple way.

Hmm, funny since it's been here since at least System 6. Calculator?
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post #15 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by Mac+
Do people realise that you can get the same effect in Jaguar (I'm running 10.2.6) by pressing: Ctrl-Tab?

You're probably running LiteSwitch.
JLL

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post #16 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by JLL
Yes it should. Tabs are just another way of managing windows, and having one shortcut to close a web site if it's in a window alone and another shortcut to close it if it's in a tab together with other tabs would be very confusing.

Tabs are not windows. Tabs are anti-windows if anything. You cannot position them independently. They do not show-up in the Window menu. Tabs in Safari are not built into any APIs. As a result, tabs are implemented in many different ways with many different key-commands. They do not deserve to muddle the sanctity of Command-W. Imagine if other commands no longer did what they were supposed to do.

What if I do want to close a Safari window that has tabs in it? Why should that command not be Command-W? Why must it be a moving target? Die.

Quote:
Hmm, funny since it's been here since at least System 6. Calculator?

I know how long its been an issue, but it's getting more and more prevalent now. It wasn't right then, and it isn't right now. I don't see how this is supposed to help your argument. It was wrong then and it's wrong now.

Imagine if every app behaved like this. Imagine if Mail quits when the last window is closed. Imagine if iChat quits when you close the Buddy List. Why the hell do we have Dock menus, Dock alerts, Menu Extras, and a global menubar then?

Doesn't this make any sense to you? Why the hell does the System Preferences even have its Dock menu items if you can only access them with the window open anyway?? Please answer.
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post #17 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by Eugene
What if I do want to close a Safari window that has tabs in it? Why should that command not be Command-W? Why must it be a moving target? Die.

OK, you would prefer this situation:

User has a browser with three tabs open. He presses Cmd-whatever to close one of the pages he's reading. He does the same to the next, but somehow Cmd-whatever wonøt close the last page since he needs to close the window using Cmd-W instead.


Quote:
Originally posted by Eugene
I know how long its been an issue, but it's getting more and more prevalent now. It wasn't right then, and it isn't right now. I don't see how this is supposed to help your argument. It was wrong then and it's wrong now.

Why? To what use us Calculator without it's only window open?


Quote:
Originally posted by Eugene
Imagine if every app behaved like this. Imagine if Mail quits when the last window is closed. Imagine if iChat quits when you close the Buddy List. Why the hell do we have Dock menus, Dock alerts, Menu Extras, and a global menubar then?

Mail, iChat and others are apps with multiple windows. You don't need the mail viewer window to use mail.


Quote:
Originally posted by Eugene
Why the hell does the System Preferences even have its Dock menu items if you can only access them with the window open anyway?? Please answer.

Because using the Dock menu you can access Date & Time even though System Preferences is showing the Network pane.
JLL

95% percent of the boat is owned by Microsoft, but the 5% Apple controls happens to be the rudder!
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post #18 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by JLL
OK, you would prefer this situation:

User has a browser with three tabs open. He presses Cmd-whatever to close one of the pages he's reading. He does the same to the next, but somehow Cmd-whatever wonøt close the last page since he needs to close the window using Cmd-W instead.

Yes I would prefer it. He's going to have to learn that a tab is not a window and never will be. It brings us back to the MDI interface and the horrors it brings along with it.

Quote:
Why? To what use us Calculator without it's only window open?

Imagine if it had a Dock menu to "update currency exchange rates" or "display recent conversions" or "display recent calculations." You need to start thinking about how flexible apps can be outside of their own windows. Either that or you're using Mac OS like...Windows, and not to its full potential.

Quote:
Mail, iChat and others are apps with multiple windows. You don't need the mail viewer window to use mail.

What's a multiple-window app with one window open?... In fact, since I read more mail than I compose, I use Mail very much like a single-window app much of the time. Both the Dock menu options in Mail require you to bring up a window anyway.

Quote:
Because using the Dock menu you can access Date & Time even though System Preferences is showing the Network pane.

Nope, that's not why the Dock menu is there. That *is* why the View menu is there though.

Nice try.
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post #19 of 144
Hey... that is awesome... when you close the system preferences window it quits... i was always really annoyed that I had to quit it manually after i closed the window.
post #20 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by MacUsers
Hey... that is awesome... when you close the system preferences window it quits... i was always really annoyed that I had to quit it manually after i closed the window.

DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE!!!

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post #21 of 144
I asked yesterday Bugs bunny ( a great mac user) what where his first impressions of panther , and the new dock in particular. He replied to me :
- what's new dock ?

Toon's rabbit can be very annoying sometimes
post #22 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by Eugene
DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE!!!


It's better this way, I always got pissed off when it didn't quit when I closed the window. Why would you want it to stay open when you closed the window? Seems kinda pointless to me.
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post #23 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by DMBand0026
It's better this way, I always got pissed off when it didn't quit when I closed the window. Why would you want it to stay open when you closed the window? Seems kinda pointless to me.

Because when I close the window I'm telling it to "Close" and not "Quit <Application>." Why should I expect one app to be different than another? Why should the red widget mean something else entirely from one app to the next?

Because every app has the potential to gain functionality, like I described in an app as simple as the Calculator. So if the System Preferences gets added functionality in the Dock menu, will it revert back to not quitting when the window is closed? Isn't it easier to just assume that app won't quit when you "Close Window" and will quit when you "Quit <Application>???"

Microsoftian UI behavior should not apply to Mac OS.

EDIT:
Now check out Calculator and System Preferences. Command-W works right? Now check out iMovie. Where the hell is Command-W? And what about iSync? See how iSync has a Menu Extra? Why should it quit when I can clearly control it without its single-window open? This is shoddy UI consistency at its worst.
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post #24 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by DMBand0026
It's better this way, I always got pissed off when it didn't quit when I closed the window.

Exactly
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post #25 of 144
So nobody's going to tackle my questions then?

Quite frankly I'm shocked and dismayed by the support for this CRAPPY new direction Apple is heading in.

It's especially disconcerting coming from a person who has "In a world without doors or walls, there is no need for Gates or Windows" as a signature. Having apps quit when you close them is basically a Microsoft Windows concept born out of necessity because they don't have a global menubar (a huge transparent window). No app in Mac OS is a true single-window application.
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post #26 of 144
Where were you guys for this thread?

What about iCal then? Why doesn't it quit when you close the window? It's a single-window app. Explain that one...
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post #27 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by Eugene
DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE!!!


ah hahahahahaha
post #28 of 144
Hmm, I'm not sure that the single-window application close-app / close-window debate has all that much to do with the Dock, Eugene's gossamer-thin tissue of connective reasoning notwithstanding.
post #29 of 144
I'm all with you, Eugene. Apps quitting when it's last window dies is EVIL!

Now that's pissed me off alot.
post #30 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by Hobbes
Er, what does the single-window application close-app / close-window debate have to do with the Dock?

Applications gain functionality through the Dock. Control-click on any app's icon. Even if there aren't any app specific options in the Dock menu, there is always the capacity to gain some.

The Dock is also a visual aid for applications. Mail, a multi-window app tells you how many new messages you have. iCal, a single-window app, tells you what day of the month it is in the Dock.

But back to the original topic, I understand the reasoning behind the visual new tab switcher. It puts the visual feedback in the center of the screen where it is most visible. That's the most important thing.
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post #31 of 144
With regard to System Preferences, Eugene is absolutely correct. When System Preferences is open, it allows you to change various system aspects, yes? But, you always have to go throw the main System Preferences Window. That means an extra click (an extra time to wait for the window to load and change panes).

However, System Preferences has a DOCK MENU! When System Preferences is open, you can access any preference panes via the dock menu. But wait, I can't access the dock menu is the application isn't open, right? Well, shucks, let me click on that little red button, close the System Preferences Window, but leave the Application open so that I can get to whatever Pref Pane I want to in a much quicker manner. Shit, I can't, because closing the window quits the entire Application. That's good UI design being trumped by bad UI design.

And yes, this does relate to the dock.

Edit: And in Panther, the calculator is NOT a single window app. The paper tape has its own window, but if both the paper tape and the calculator are open, and you close the calculator, it quits the ENTIRE app!
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post #32 of 144
This is frustrating to me too. Closing the last window in an app should never Quit the app. The System Preferences change in Panther is just ridiculous.
post #33 of 144
The paper tape isn't officially a window, but a palette. That still doesn't change anything though.
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post #34 of 144
Having an application quit when you close a window is weird, frustrating and unnecessary. When I realised that System Preferences does that now it was terribly depressing- Apple actually went to the trouble to put it in.

They must actually want it. So why iPhoto still does it and they decided to make iCal a bit more sensible in this regard is kinda odd. And they may as well get rid of that Dock Menu thing for System Preferences now. Or else be sensible and let the damn app behave a grown up.
post #35 of 144
Hassan i Sabbah, funny thing about iPhoto is that the Order Prints or HomePage button actually loads a separate window...and when that window is open, you can close the main viewer window and the app won't quit! Isn't that fricking crazy?! In this case we have a multi-window app that closes when the last window is closed...

Yet another inconsistency in quitting/closing behavior.
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post #36 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by Eugene


Yet another inconsistency in quitting/closing behavior.

Just to backup Eugene here: quitting the application while closing its last window is, IMHO, a serious UI inconsistency. I really don't understand why Apple take this way while they have great chances with each OS X release to correct this.
post #37 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by JLL
You're probably running LiteSwitch.

Nope - or at least not my knowledge - somebody else with 10.2.6. try this out and tell me that I'm not the only one who can achieve this!
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post #38 of 144
I think the main reason for having the red widget close a window and not quit in some circumstances is because applications need to load. This is logical, most apps stay running when you close the window so you still have access to the program without starting it up again.

Microsoft Word lets you close the window, and CMD-N will start a new document without having to load the whole program again, and it uses less memory. It also serves great purpose to keep the app running when you are looking for files, or when you want to open another file, drag and drop it onto the running app's icon and up pops the document with no app load times.
This is why I hate Quicktime on the Windows PC. You are looking through lots of movies, and the first time you want to open one, QuickTime has to load, but then you don't want that movie, so you press the 'X' , and the whole of QuickTime closes, making you load it up again when you want to watch another movie, instead of having everything ready so that the new movie will just play.
You have to have one movie already open to avoid loading when you open a new movie. This is stupid and a memory hog.
Also, by default, QuickTime opens a new blank movie when launched, if you close this movie in Windows, then QT quits. There's no menu bar for applications in Windows, so you can't "Open movie" once the application's window is gone, this is very very annoying.

The logical law for the behavior of the red widget should be:
Apps with one window that do not have the CMD-N command, should quit when the red widget is pressed.
Apps that do let you create or open multiple windows should stay running after CMD-W.

Anyway, the dock itself, I have no grudges with. It works, and it works well. The new app switcher should have settings allowing those that don't like it to switch back to the old way. But I like the fact that you get to see the apps' icons at full size for once, and it's clear, and easy to click on the app you want. Looks and acts better than the Windows one at any rate..

Jimzip
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post #39 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by Mac+
Nope - or at least not my knowledge - somebody else with 10.2.6. try this out and tell me that I'm not the only one who can achieve this!

In 10.2.6 it shows the app in the dock like this:



In 10.3 it pops up in the middle of the screen like the pic that Hobbes posted.
post #40 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by Eugene
So nobody's going to tackle my questions then?

Quite frankly I'm shocked and dismayed by the support for this CRAPPY new direction Apple is heading in.

It's especially disconcerting coming from a person who has "In a world without doors or walls, there is no need for Gates or Windows" as a signature. Having apps quit when you close them is basically a Microsoft Windows concept born out of necessity because they don't have a global menubar (a huge transparent window). No app in Mac OS is a true single-window application.

hey, eugene, i feel for ya. it happens all the time when i am designing a logo or web site or newletter for something, and a client is insistent on doing the wrong thing communication-wise, because they "prefer" an alternate way. sometimes it's just a losing battle, i cut my losses, and include the CORRECT and BEST logo for my portfolio, but give them the weaker method instead. i figure, they'll eventually learn their lesson, and if they don't, hell, i won't be around to watch the fallout.

so, in the end, i agree with you... even though i do PREFER the new system preferences close=quit method.
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You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

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