or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Software › Mac OS X › Okay, Apple: make up your mind about the Dock.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Okay, Apple: make up your mind about the Dock. - Page 4  

post #121 of 144
Oh man... who mentioned tabs with Eugene around?

post #122 of 144
Heh. Someone with a wish for paaaaaaaaain.

Remember guys, keep it civil, keep it clean...

LET'S GET IT AWHN!
My brain is hung like a HORSE!
My brain is hung like a HORSE!
post #123 of 144
Kirkland, read my post again and look at both images. It's ironic you chose to use the term myopia in that particular reply.
I can change my sig again!
I can change my sig again!
post #124 of 144
Ah, okay. A stupid little floating palette. Not as good as tabs.

Why? Because it's another window. Another item floating in my way and blocking my view of the other things I have on my screen. I want the switcher integrated into one window. I want all the windows integrated into one frame. I want... tabs.

That you don't want them shouldn't mean that those of us who do shouldn't be allowed to have them.
post #125 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkland

That you don't want them shouldn't mean that those of us who do shouldn't be allowed to have them.

You sound like a smoker now. It does effect me one way or another. Command-W no longer means Close Window. The Window Menu no longer works because it can't see tabs. The Parent-Child Window pandora's box has been opened. Jee, thanks.

The advantages of the palette outweigh the disadvantages.

Pros:
No tabs behind tabs as can exist with multiple windows with tabs
No MDI quirks
No new contextual key-commands
Tabs are in columns and not rows. Why are most lists vertical? You won't get as much of this.
The windows can be independently positioned.

Cons:
A floating window takes up screen space.
??? (I'll add more here as more come to light)
I can change my sig again!
I can change my sig again!
post #126 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by 3.1416
I recall reading the Camino (then Chimera) mailing lists back when it first got tab support. Initially it used Cmd-E to close a tab and Cmd-W to close the entire window, but Cmd-W to close a tab was so intuitive, and so many users were accidentally closing entire tab sets (myself included), that it was changed. Actual experience trumps theory.

No. Cmd-W to close a winow was intuitive because that's what it has always done, and continues to do in every other app. And tabs are little crippled windows that act a bit like windows and a bit like something else so people used Cmd-W to close them.

The 'fix' for this problem was to redefine Cmd-W to mean something different, which is obviously a ghastly hack regardless of whether you think it to be the pragmatic choice or not.

What they didn't fix however was the analogous situation for people who use the mouse to close windows. Redefining the behaviour of the red widget was a bridge too far for the tab faction and the only suggested solution was an annoying "are you sure?" dialog popping up when people tried to close a window with multiple tabs. This is, of course, the UI equivalent of a large flashing neon sign reading "ed up user-interface" and so was never implemented.

So every hour of every day there will be people closing tabs they didn't mean to because what tab fans describe as the intuitive and obvious thing (i.e. "close this web page I'm looking at") does *not* happen when you click on the red dot.

Obviously most web pages can be reopened easily from the history tab but every so often people will be in the middle of a transaction or editing a form and they can kiss their time and effort goodbye. And they will curse Apple's thoughtless UI designers (not a commonly heard phrase) or maybe just Apple for allowing this to happen.

So use tabs if you must, but please don't claim they are in any way good user-interface design because both theory and experience tell us otherwise.
a flirt with mediocrity comes with heavy penalty
a flirt with mediocrity comes with heavy penalty
post #127 of 144
Quote:
So use tabs if you must, but please don't claim they are in any way good user-interface design because both theory and experience tell us otherwis

<Generic Tab Fan> Huh? I like tabs. Yeah, tabs are good.
I can change my sig again!
I can change my sig again!
post #128 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by Eugene
You sound like a smoker now.



And you've sounded like a bully since page 1.

Quote:
It does effect me one way or another. Command-W no longer means Close Window. The Window Menu no longer works because it can't see tabs. The Parent-Child Window pandora's box has been opened. Jee, thanks.

Then DON'T TURN ON TABS. Tabs are a user-preference and are off by default. You never need see them.

Quote:
Pros:
No tabs behind tabs as can exist with multiple windows with tabs

This doesn't make any sense at all.

Quote:
No MDI quirks

What's quirky about having a few windows glued together if that's what I chose to do with those windows?

Quote:
No new contextual key-commands

Not a problem for me, I'm all in favor of Cmd-W being "close tab" when there are tabs and "close window" when there are not. This has worked flawlessly in Mozilla, Camino, Firebird and now Safari. Only the religious get up in arms about it. And they don't have to use tabs if they don't want to.

Quote:
The windows can be independently positioned.

The very reason to use tabs is that I DON'T WANT INDEPENDENTLY POSITIONED WINDOWS. If you want independently positioned windows, here's an amazing trick for ya: don't use tabs.

Quote:
Cons:
A floating window takes up screen space. [/B]

Even one bit of distracting clutter outweighs all other concerns. Clutter must be avoided at all costs. Also, when I'm in a web browser, my mouse is already in that window, clicking on links or using the scroll bar. Why make me mouse around my screen to change windows, when the tab bar is right there next to my mouse already? Efficiency trumps tradition, experience trumps theory, logic trumps religion.

An entire web page is ruined by one instance of the BLINK tag. Similarly, needless interface widgets, which could be otherwise integrated (as they are now) spraying themselves all over the screen ruins an interface that already works fine.

This argument is old. Very old. It's been over for years, and the tabs-advocates won a long time ago. You can moan about your sour grapes, but you'll take away my tabs when you pry my mouse from my cold dead hand.
post #129 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by stupider...likeafox
So use tabs if you must, but please don't claim they are in any way good user-interface design because both theory and experience tell us otherwise.

Perhaps YOUR experience. My experience and the experience of millions of tabbed browser users is different. I am much, much, much more comfortable, more efficient and happier with one window with tabs in it than I am with five windows. The moment I started using tabs my entire way of approaching the Web changed. I could never go back to a crippled-non-tabbed browser. The improvement of my Internet experience is tangible and real. Even if you don't want to believe in it.

I have five web pages open right now. Why should I have to deal with five windows? Why is it so bad that I can combine them into one window and save screen real estate, cut down on clutter and make swapping between them quicker?

Apparently, my experience doesn't count if it contradicts that of the self-proclaimed high priests of user interface design.
post #130 of 144
Quote:
This argument is old. Very old. It's been over for years, and the tabs-advocates won a long time ago. You can moan about your sour grapes, but you'll take away my tabs when you pry my mouse from my cold dead hand.

Wow, considering the graphical web browser is approximately a decade old...and the first major browser to implement tabs was Mozilla less than 2 years ago...

Um, NO.

Tabs have lived in Mac OS for many years. I love tabs when used sparingly. Tabs are great in System Preferences panes. The current issue is the way in which web browser tabs and other veiled implementations of MDI work.

Besides, it doesn't matter who "won" or lost. VHS won. Microsoft won. Are either of these two examples of design superiority? What's next...are you going to argue Apple's new horizontal Color Label menu items are superior to the traditional "Label" submenu? Apple is really making questionable interface choices here. I hope you eventually realize what is happening.
I can change my sig again!
I can change my sig again!
post #131 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkland

Then DON'T TURN ON TABS. Tabs are a user-preference and are off by default. You never need see them.

...

Not a problem for me, I'm all in favor of Cmd-W being "close tab" when there are tabs and "close window" when there are not. This has worked flawlessly in Mozilla, Camino, Firebird and now Safari.

...

Even one bit of distracting clutter outweighs all other concerns. Clutter must be avoided at all costs.

...

Also, when I'm in a web browser, my mouse is already in that window, clicking on links or using the scroll bar. Why make me mouse around my screen to change windows, when the tab bar is right there next to my mouse already? Efficiency trumps tradition, experience trumps theory, logic trumps religion.

Using preferences to cover up bad UI design issues is yet another classic design blunder. I posted some good links about this in the last thread on this. Someone should dig up the link, as most of this ground has been covered before, and it may help explain Eugene's short manner.

...

This has never worked "flawlessly" in any of the browsers you mention. I was paying attention when tabs were added to each of these browsers and the fact that people would close whole windows full of tabs was just one of the many issues that the UI geniuses that brought us tabs totally failed to account for. Only many people complaining about each flaw brought ad hoc fix upon ad hoc fix and as I outlined above it still isn't fixed for people who use the red close widget. "flawless" my ass.

Note also that the Safari implementation of tabs is the best of the bunch (not on by default, doesn't re-(mis)-use the standard tab widget, doesn't re-(mis)-use the standard close widget and a host of other issues that Apple managed to get right) but it still sucks.

...

If you go back and read the other thread I mention you'll see that tab fans seem to have a need for a degree of visual order. I thought it was people used to the do-one-thing-at-a-time mentality enforced by OS 9 and Windows (the former due to instability, the latter thanks to horrific, lawsuit-avoiding UI compromises) but it appears it may be a personal preference kind of thing. Your certainly very uncompromising on the issue. I guess you don't like this app: http://www.sprote.com/clutter/

...

You claim you're faster with tabs but Tog (http://www.asktog.com) managed to puncture the similar claims of keyboard shorcut users by means of the crazy-out-there theoretical construct that I like to call "a stopwatch". Turns out that because they had to context switch between mouse and keyboard and actually think about what they were doing their subjective appreciation of time was less than just unthinkingly mousing to the menu. I think a similar issue may be occuring here.

Note also that the time taken to hit a target is a factor of both size and distance and the Window menu's infinite height and constant location means it is almost certainly faster to use according to Fitts's Law (http://www.asktog.com/columns/022Des...GiveFitts.html) than a small, poorly labelled, moving target that will do something destructive (i.e. close the tab) if your aim is off by a few pixels.

...

You said "Efficiency trumps tradition, experience trumps theory, logic trumps religion." I couldn't have put it better myself, except the tradition is MDI interfaces, experience is what actually happens not what you *think* happens, and logic is certainly on the side of those who actually study an issue rather than simply believe something with nothing but subjective personal experience to base it on.

PS I had to rewrite this message because when I posted it last night Appleinsider was down for maintenance or somesuch. Just a small taste of how bad it feels for a user when bugs cause data-loss. Not good.
a flirt with mediocrity comes with heavy penalty
a flirt with mediocrity comes with heavy penalty
post #132 of 144
Quote:
Note also that the time taken to hit a target is a factor of both size and distance and the Window menu's infinite height and constant location means it is almost certainly faster to use according to Fitts's Law (http://www.asktog.com/columns/022De...oGiveFitts.html) than a small, poorly labelled, moving target that will do something destructive (i.e. close the tab) if your aim is off by a few pixels.

Not only is the Window menu faster according to Fitts's Law, in most real life situations, "cluttered" windows are too...

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~ceugene/adm/tabs2.png

Both partially obscured Safari windows provide bigger targets (in both area and angle) to click on. Both are more visually identifiable than any tab could ever hope to be. As one window is destroyed, the others are stationary. They stay where I originally put them.
I can change my sig again!
I can change my sig again!
post #133 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by stupider...likeafox
Using preferences to cover up bad UI design issues is yet another classic design blunder.



It's only bad UI design in your mind. In my mind, its good UI design because it's how I prefer to work. No clutter. No clutter. No blasted clutter.

It's like that hideous old Finder that used to vomit windows all over my screen, I hated that thing with a passion. Mac OS X's Finder is so superior to that in just about every way, particularly in Panther, now that I've got labels back, plus the fabulous iTunes-like interface.


Quote:
This has never worked "flawlessly" in any of the browsers you mention. I was paying attention when tabs were added to each of these browsers and the fact that people would close whole windows full of tabs was just one of the many issues that the UI geniuses that brought us tabs totally failed to account for. Only many people complaining about each flaw brought ad hoc fix upon ad hoc fix and as I outlined above it still isn't fixed for people who use the red close widget. "flawless" my ass.

People make mistakes with any interface, and in programs like web browsers, where there's no "File Save" dialogue when closing a window/tab, that can sometimes be a pain. But it's hardly an epidemic. Compare how many people do that each day to the number of folks who quit web browsers by hitting Cmd-Q instead of Cmd-W.


Quote:
Note also that the Safari implementation of tabs is the best of the bunch (not on by default, doesn't re-(mis)-use the standard tab widget, doesn't re-(mis)-use the standard close widget and a host of other issues that Apple managed to get right) but it still sucks.

Your opinion, stop expecting me to cast mine aside and take your as gospel.

Quote:
If you go back and read the other thread I mention you'll see that tab fans seem to have a need for a degree of visual order. I thought it was people used to the do-one-thing-at-a-time mentality enforced by OS 9 and Windows (the former due to instability, the latter thanks to horrific, lawsuit-avoiding UI compromises) but it appears it may be a personal preference kind of thing. Your certainly very uncompromising on the issue. I guess you don't like this app: http://www.sprote.com/clutter/

Yes, I do hate that program. Were anyone who works on me to put that program on my Mac, I would fire them. Well, first, I'd ask how they got into my Mac, and then I would fire them. Except that I never fire anyone.

Quote:
You claim you're faster with tabs but Tog (http://www.asktog.com) managed to puncture the similar claims of keyboard shorcut users by means of the crazy-out-there theoretical construct that I like to call "a stopwatch". Turns out that because they had to context switch between mouse and keyboard and actually think about what they were doing their subjective appreciation of time was less than just unthinkingly mousing to the menu. I think a similar issue may be occuring here.

No, I'm faster. I can more comfortably read more web pages, and flip through more web pages at once, using tabs. Because I can't read or write when there is clutter on the screen. It drives me quickly to distraction.

The one feature I really miss from Classic Mac OS, now that my labels are back, is the ability to hide those blasted desktop icons when I'm not in the Finder. Luckily, Mac OS X lets me keep my desktop blissfully clean by default, with no icons at all. But they always find there way there during my work periods.

Quote:
Note also that the time taken to hit a target is a factor of both size and distance and the Window menu's infinite height and constant location means it is almost certainly faster to use according to Fitts's Law (http://www.asktog.com/columns/022Des...GiveFitts.html) than a small, poorly labelled, moving target that will do something destructive (i.e. close the tab) if your aim is off by a few pixels.

My aim is good, and since when I'm in Safari I mostly use my mouse and not my keyboard anyway, my hand is always at ready. Since I never move my web browser window, and avoid resizing it, I have fairly decent motor memory. Plus, I visually associate web pages with the tab they're on, not the name of the page. Having to go to a menu at the top and remember the name of the page I want to go to, instead of which tab it is (because I do most of my daily browsing in tab sets that launch in the same order each time) would be an incredible pain. To say nothing of the clutter problem of having multiple windows.

Quote:
You said "Efficiency trumps tradition, experience trumps theory, logic trumps religion." I couldn't have put it better myself, except the tradition is MDI interfaces, experience is what actually happens not what you *think* happens, and logic is certainly on the side of those who actually study an issue rather than simply believe something with nothing but subjective personal experience to base it on.

Your arrogant "my opinion is good enough for you" is really offensive, you know that? Because I know I'm faster, and I know for a fact that I'm a HELL OF A LOT HAPPIER, which is all that really matters, anyway.
post #134 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by Eugene
Not only is the Window menu faster according to Fitts's Law, in most real life situations, "cluttered" windows are too...

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~ceugene/adm/tabs2.png

Both partially obscured Safari windows provide bigger targets (in both area and angle) to click on. Both are more visually identifiable than any tab could ever hope to be. As one window is destroyed, the others are stationary. They stay where I originally put them.

And the screen is cluttered. Cluttered. Cluttered. Totally and completely unusable in any way.

If you want to work like that, fine. BUT DON'T ASK ME TO.
post #135 of 144
why do i see this thread spiraling down the same track that "safari - tabs - DONE!" thread did a few months ago.

there needs to be alittle bit of compromise on both sides of the issue. if usability is the be-all and end-all of the user interface, then you get what jakob neilsen and tognazzi (sp?) do on asktog.com and useit.com. usable to the point of being drop-dead lacking in any visual interest. a 1950's style, in my opinion, where everything is solid-state, and anything of importance has a big flashing color next to it to draw attention. all substance, no style. however, if you try to cater to everyone's preference, and try to establish a "style" for your system (which apple obviously is trying to do against another rival operating system), you can also get a mess.

in apple's defense, tabs are turned off by default when safari first runs. you have to make a conscious effort to kick them on, and therefore take a little responsibility for this feature and learning to use it correctly.

i don't know if i have contributed anything constructive here, but i figured i had to throw something in.
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
post #136 of 144
I agree with you completely, rok.

I don't want anyone to be forced to use a feature they don't want to use. And aside from what some may think, preferences and flexibility is an inherent good thing. Bad behaviors aren't bad when they correct what for me has long been a critical flaw of web browsing -- visual clutter.
post #137 of 144
Thread Starter 
MDI sucks because it limits document windows inside a single window. Tabs, on the other hand, offer a 1-diminsional, non-spacial grouping, allowing for multiple documents/pages to exist without having to keep track of windows.
post #138 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by stupider...likeafox
the Window menu's infinite height and constant location means it is almost certainly faster to use according to Fitts's Law

Yes, it's probably faster to click on the Window menu than on a tab, but once you do, you still have to find the right menu item, which requires locating a relatively small and variable target.
post #139 of 144
Quote:
in apple's defense, tabs are turned off by default when safari first runs. you have to make a conscious effort to kick them on, and therefore take a little responsibility for this feature and learning to use it correctly.

If web browser tabs are such a great innovation in the first place, why do you think Apple has them disabled in the first place? I think Apple hates them for every reason I and others have illustrated, but they have to bend to the will of the people. In this case the people think more options are automatically better, but they are ignorant of the consequences.
I can change my sig again!
I can change my sig again!
post #140 of 144
Stop calling me and other users of tabbed-browsing ignorant. Just because I disagree with you does not make me stupid, ignorant or misguided. I take that as a personal insult.

My God, are you this arrogant in person?
post #141 of 144
You ignorant bastard.
I can change my sig again!
I can change my sig again!
post #142 of 144
Im with Eugene absolutely as far as the dock and the app-quitting-window-widgets go, but disagree absolutely with the tabphobia.

Im sure the points Im about to make were all made during the Great Tab Wars, but Ive thought of them myself and this is more productive than arguing about Ariel Sharon in AppleOutsider.

Anyway. Using a browser is not like using the Finder. Were dealing with very specific issues and of course the issue dem need solutions.

To whit.

I like to click on a bunch of links and read pages as the others load. The Finder is instant; the web can take forever. On news sites and forums Ill have ten on the go at least. I dont want to have to cycle through windows to see which ones are ready because this is a terrible, frustrating pain in the arse. And I want to be able to see how many I have loading, and to be able to see which links Ive clicked. To go to the menubar isnt as convenient, intuitive or as fast as looking at the tabs bar on my browser.

I dont open the same link twice, I know what Ive read, I can keep track of my path. I can see it. On my flat panel.

Also, surfin that intarweb generates windows. Thats one of the things it does. In point of fact, it does it so much that the normal rules of finding the stuff youve put down dont apply any more. When I use the Finder I have as few windows open as I can; I know where Ive put everything and I know where to find it. I dont like clutter any more than Kirkland does and there is no app, and nothing you can do with the Finder, that will generate that number of windows. At least, no app Ive ever used, and no deep-level scurrying-for-data Ive ever done.

Browsers are a special case, UI guidelines be damned, and tabs do it for me.
post #143 of 144
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkland
Stop calling me and other users of tabbed-browsing ignorant. Just because I disagree with you does not make me stupid, ignorant or misguided.

This is quite correct. I get no special satisfaction from using my graphical user interface in a fashion that accords with the guidelines given to developers for building their applications. This does not give me any kind of boner, or even so much as a tingle in my perineum.

I have a girlfriend; I read books.

I do, however, think OS X is great, tabbed browsing makes perfect sense and Ariel Sharon's domestic policy is terribly misguided, and we can take this over to AppleOutsider if you prefer.

Moogs can hold our coats.
post #144 of 144
Oh for god's sake.

Eugene: stop taunting the new guy.

Kirkland: stop baiting him so blatantly.

Jeez, you're both acting like playground kids.

Aaaaaaaaaand, since this has jack-all to do with the Dock anymore....

LOCKED.
My brain is hung like a HORSE!
My brain is hung like a HORSE!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Mac OS X
This thread is locked  
AppleInsider › Forums › Software › Mac OS X › Okay, Apple: make up your mind about the Dock.