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post #161 of 269
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
gee, sorry that i don't want al gore deciding what the dynamic of the party is. (as al gore's dynamic seems to be losing) i thought that should be left to voters, albeit maybe just the new hampshire and iowa voters, but they're real people.
obviously gore's endorsement does have an impact, but only within the party fundraising aspect. most people don't care.

and as for al gore not being responsible for losing tennessee, as tenessee is skewing republican, they have 5 democratic house seats (out of 9) and just elected a democratic governor.

I don't think he has definitively [b]decided[/i] the outcome of the race. I think his endorsement only exacerbates certain trends (ie. giving Dean more momentum, effectively ruling out Lieberman, and setting up the Dean vs. Clark dynamic that Josh Marshall talks about). Whether or not he should, you know, exert his influence in this democracy is a totally $$$$ing moot point. How the primary is still not left to the voters is an issue that's far beyond my comprehension.

I think that the effects of Gore's endorsement certainly operate through the fundraising aspect. But I think you're being excessively hard on Gore, who despite losing the President race by a handful votes and losing his own conservative state, still remains very popular with Democrats generally speaking and with certain demographics that Dean needs to reach: like African-American voters and even moderates.
post #162 of 269
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
i don't think it's bad for dean, i think it's bad for the party.

edit = why are you afraid to have dr. dean go through the primary process?
it will be good for him if he wants to defeat president bush.

I'm shaking in my boots?
post #163 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
[B]I don't think he has definitively decided[/i] the outcome of the race. I think his endorsement only exacerbates certain trends (ie. giving Dean more momentum, effectively ruling out Lieberman, and setting up the Dean vs. Clark dynamic that Josh Marshall talks about). Whether or not he should, you know, exert his influence in this democracy is a totally $$$$ing moot point. How the primary is still not left to the voters is an issue that's far beyond my comprehension.

I think that the effects of Gore's endorsement certainly operate through the fundraising aspect. But I think you're being excessively hard on Gore, who despite losing the President race by a handful votes and losing his own conservative state, still remains very popular with Democrats generally speaking and with certain demographics that Dean needs to reach: like African-American voters and even moderates.

exacerbate

\\Ex*ac"er*bate\\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Exacerrated; p. pr. & vb. n. Exacerrating.] [L. exacerbatus, p. p. of exacerbare; ex out (intens.) + acerbare. See Acerbate.] To render more violent or bitter; to irriate; to exasperate; to imbitter, as passions or disease.



I'LL SAY!

if this does set up a dean clark dynamic, and all things being equal except dean has gore in his corner and clark has clinton in his corner, what do you think will happen?
clark will win and beat dean in vermont.
post #164 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
gee, sorry that i don't want al gore deciding what the dynamic of the party is. (as al gore's dynamic seems to be losing)

heh. yup.


BUT. . . I don't think that losing is Dean's dynamic. Gore lost not because his policies were bad, but because he was BORING. Dean doesn't have that problem, and his politics are far better.

Cheers,

Curufinwe
post #165 of 269
Yeah, wonderful politics, raise taxes on everyone. That's going to win him at least as many votes as Mondale.
post #166 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Yeah, wonderful politics, raise taxes on everyone. That's going to win him at least as many votes as Mondale.

Are you talking about Dean here BRussell?

Do I sense a bit of concern about his chances against Bush?

Fellows
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Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #167 of 269
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
I'LL SAY!

if this does set up a dean clark dynamic, and all things being equal except dean has gore in his corner and clark has clinton in his corner, what do you think will happen?
clark will win and beat dean in vermont.

Ha. Wrong word; I meant accelerate. I think Dean's going to win, and I *hope* he chooses Clark as a running mate.
post #168 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Ha. Wrong word; I meant accelerate. I think Dean's going to win, and I *hope* he chooses Clark as a running mate.

i don't really care who gets the nomination at this point, as i said i'm undecided, i've been most impressed with the reverend al sharpton. (unfortunately he has among other things tawana brawley in his luggage. but i've been impressed with what he has to say and the way he's said it.)
anyway whoever wins the nomination, i want them to win.
this will be my eighth presidential election and i never ever have seen an administration that needs to be removed as much as this one. god have mercy on us if the bush administration gets a second term.
and i will get religion if president bush is reelected.
post #169 of 269
Quote:
god have mercy on us if the bush administration gets a second term.
and i will get religion if president bush is reelected. [/B]

I think that is Bush's secret Christian fundy plan
post #170 of 269
i've been duped! ok ixney on the odgay.........
post #171 of 269
Dean wants to repeal the Bush tax cut and balance the budget. The government can have back the measly $300 I got from the last tax cut.
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John Kerry for President
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post #172 of 269
the problem is that Dean is mining the very active, very large portion of the population that really can't stand George Bush. every interview i've heard of Dean supporters will cite two things. first, they love how Dean is getting people fired up to take theirr country back. second, that they really can't stand George Bush.

except that the people who can't stand bush won't be voting for him no matter who the democratic canidate is. Dean is doing really well, only with a demographic that's already a democratic lock.
post #173 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by chu_bakka
Dean wants to repeal the Bush tax cut and balance the budget. The government can have back the measly $300 I got from the last tax cut.

Give that measly tax cut to the Dean campaign. That's what a lot of us have been doing,
post #174 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by chu_bakka
Dean wants to repeal the Bush tax cut and balance the budget. The government can have back the measly $300 I got from the last tax cut.

Yeah, thank god Schwarzenegger toed the party line by refusing to "raise" (i.e. restore to pre-cut levels) the car tax in California. Now we have a credit rating just above junk, it looks like he'll have to renege on his promises not to cut education funding and local governments are going to take a bath.

No such thing as a free lunch, ya'll.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #175 of 269
Why I'm for Dean

by William Greider

First, the rivals saw him as a McGovernite lefty from the 1960s. When that didn't take, they decided to depict him as a right-wing clone of Newt Gingrich who wants to dismantle Medicare and Social Security. Finally, opponents sold political reporters on the story of Mr. Malaprop, an oddball from tiny, liberal Vermont so insensitive to the nuances of American politics his mouth will destroy him. Howard Dean surged ahead through all this. The other candidates and witting collaborators in the press got him wrong every time.

Howard Dean is an odd duck, certainly, in the milieu of the contemporary Democratic Party. He is, I surmise, a tough and savvy politician of the old school--a shrewd, intuitive pol who develops his own sense of where the people are and where events are likely to take public opinion, then has the guts to act on his perceptions. That approach--leading, it's called--seems dangerously unscientific in this era of high-quality polling and focus groups, the data interpreted for politicians by expensive consultants. The press corps has not had much experience with Democrats of this type, so reporters read Dean's style as emotional, possibly a character flaw. He reminds me of olden days when Democrats were a more contentious bunch, always fighting noisily among themselves and often with creative results...

read the rest at:

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20031215&s=greider
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John Kerry for President
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post #176 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Are you talking about Dean here BRussell?

Do I sense a bit of concern about his chances against Bush?

Fellows

Oh, I think he'll lose against Bush alright, on that one issue alone.

Let's all repeat the Republican line that we're going to hear everyday for months and months if Dean is nominated - he's gonna raise all your taxes yes he is, he's gonna raise all your taxes yes he is. He's gonna raise all your taxes, raise all your taxes, raise all your taxes yes he is.

I disagree strongly with Bush's tax and budget policy. I think we should have continued Clinton's policies of controlling spending and reducing the debt. But now that it's in place, with plenty of Democratic support, BTW, let's just be politically realistic. I think we should do what Lieberman (and Kerry and Clark) are saying: keep the tax cuts that are already in place, and halt the ones that have yet to kick in. That alone will put us into better fiscal health in the long-term.

Bush will of course still make the argument that the Democrat is going to "raise taxes," but at least it won't be true.

BTW, I still think there's a chance that Dean could reverse his position. His platform states that he is going to:
1. Reverse all Bush tax cuts, and
2. initiate tax reform.

I think what he needs to do is basically put back into place some of the tax cuts that he says he is going to reverse, and do that in the context of his as-yet-undetailed tax reform plan.
post #177 of 269
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by alcimedes
the problem is that Dean is mining the very active, very large portion of the population that really can't stand George Bush. every interview i've heard of Dean supporters will cite two things. first, they love how Dean is getting people fired up to take theirr country back. second, that they really can't stand George Bush.

except that the people who can't stand bush won't be voting for him no matter who the democratic canidate is. Dean is doing really well, only with a demographic that's already a democratic lock.

1) That's not a problem; it's an advantage. As Gore said, no other candidate inspires more grass roots support than Dean.
2). He will reach out to moderates in the general election. Ruy Teixeira of the Emerging Democratic Majority corroborates some of what you are saying about Dean's appeal to liberals vs. his appeal to moderates and conservatives. He anticipates two things: 1) a "Sister Souljah" moment on the anti-war left (as explained by an article in The New Republic and 2) preserving the middle class tax cuts.

He certainly has room to maneuver.
post #178 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by chu_bakka
Dean wants to repeal the Bush tax cut and balance the budget. The government can have back the measly $300 I got from the last tax cut.

that was a rebate, your tax cut will reflect itself when you file for refund in 2004. have babies you get more!
post #179 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
and 2) preserving the middle class tax cuts.

He certainly has room to maneuver.

Sorry to be I-told-you-so-ish, but I'm glad that other Democrats are saying that too. Let's hope that if Dean get the nomination, he isn't as stubborn as he seems, and can back off on his current policy.
post #180 of 269
I am having a baby... but not until around tax filing day!
I don't expect to see much of that "middle-class" tax cut.

Actually since Pataki has sold out NYC and Bush continues to dick over NYC... I've paid more in subway fares. Thanks guys.
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John Kerry for President
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A Fair and Balanced Liberal

John Kerry for President
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post #181 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Oh, I think he'll lose against Bush alright, on that one issue alone.

Let's all repeat the Republican line that we're going to hear everyday for months and months if Dean is nominated - he's gonna raise all your taxes yes he is, he's gonna raise all your taxes yes he is. He's gonna raise all your taxes, raise all your taxes, raise all your taxes yes he is.

I disagree strongly with Bush's tax and budget policy. I think we should have continued Clinton's policies of controlling spending and reducing the debt. But now that it's in place, with plenty of Democratic support, BTW, let's just be politically realistic. I think we should do what Lieberman (and Kerry and Clark) are saying: keep the tax cuts that are already in place, and halt the ones that have yet to kick in. That alone will put us into better fiscal health in the long-term.

Bush will of course still make the argument that the Democrat is going to "raise taxes," but at least it won't be true.

BTW, I still think there's a chance that Dean could reverse his position. His platform states that he is going to:
1. Reverse all Bush tax cuts, and
2. initiate tax reform.

I think what he needs to do is basically put back into place some of the tax cuts that he says he is going to reverse, and do that in the context of his as-yet-undetailed tax reform plan.

Also let us all remember how well the Democrats did the last time they proposed taking over the entire health care industry. (We can all argue to what degree Dean's proposal is universal, etc. but that is the line that will be repeated)

I think they lost the House didn't they...hmmmmm..1994....

Yep... Dean for Democratic Nominee!


Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #182 of 269
Keep underestimating him. We like it that way.

Not sure how Bush can criticize him now that Medicare is a 400 billion cash cow for profiteers and big healthcare companies. Government has grown much bigger under Bush that it did under Clinton. It's good when the facts don't back up the rhetoric.
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John Kerry for President
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A Fair and Balanced Liberal

John Kerry for President
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post #183 of 269
one other reason i want the democratic nominee to be seriously poised to win.

and that's to see trumtman cry like a little baby.
post #184 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by chu_bakka
Keep underestimating him. We like it that way.

I seem to remember someone else having been elected this way.... Hrm... Who was it? /me scratches beard
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #185 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Also let us all remember how well the Democrats did the last time they proposed taking over the entire health care industry. (We can all argue to what degree Dean's proposal is universal, etc. but that is the line that will be repeated)

I think they lost the House didn't they...hmmmmm..1994....

Yep... Dean for Democratic Nominee!


Nick

Going into the final day of the college football regular season, Oklahoma was undefeated and ranked No. 1. The Sooners had the best defense in the nation, had outscored their opponents by an average of 35 points and had a nine-game winning streak against ranked teams. "OU: Among best ever?" USA Today asked (rhetorically) on Friday. Kansas State, by contrast, had three losses, and had never won a Big 12 championship. Oklahoma was favored by two touchdowns. Kansas State, of course, won, 35-7.

For the next 11 months, Republicans, conservatives and Bush campaign operatives should, on arising, immediately following their morning prayers, repeat that score aloud 10 times. Underdogs do sometimes win. Howard Dean could beat President Bush. Saying you're not overconfident (as the OU players repeatedly did) is no substitute for really not being overconfident. And if Bush loses next November, it's over. There's no BCS computer to give him another shot at the national championship in the Sugar Bowl.

Could Dean really win? Unfortunately, yes. The Democratic presidential candidate has, alas, won the popular presidential vote three times in a row -- twice, admittedly, under the guidance of the skilled Bill Clinton, but most recently with the hapless Al Gore at the helm. And demographic trends (particularly the growth in Hispanic voters) tend to favor the Democrats going into 2004.

But surely the fact that Bush is now a proven president running for reelection changes everything? Sort of. Bush is also likely to be the first president since Herbert Hoover under whom there will have been no net job creation, and the first since Lyndon Johnson whose core justification for sending U.S. soldiers to war could be widely (if unfairly) judged to have been misleading.

And President Bush will be running for reelection after a two-year period in which his party has controlled both houses of Congress. The last two times the American people confronted a president and a Congress controlled by the same party were in 1980 and 1994. The voters decided in both cases to restore what they have consistently preferred for the last two generations: divided government. Since continued GOP control of at least the House of Representatives seems ensured, the easiest way for voters to re-divide government would be to replace President Bush in 2004. And with a plurality of voters believing the country is on the wrong track, why shouldn't they boot out the incumbent president?

But is Dean a credible alternative? Was Kansas State? Dean has run a terrific primary campaign, the most impressive since Carter in 1976. It's true that, unlike Carter (and Clinton), Dean is a Northeastern liberal. But he's no Dukakis. Does anyone expect Dean to be a patsy for a Bush assault, as the Massachusetts governor was?

And how liberal is Dean anyway? He governed as a centrist in Vermont, and will certainly pivot to the center the moment he has the nomination. And one underestimates, at this point when we are all caught up in the primary season, how much of an opportunity the party's nominee has to define or redefine himself once he gets the nomination.

Thus, on domestic policy, Dean will characterize Bush as the deficit-expanding, Social Security-threatening, Constitution-amending (on marriage) radical, while positioning himself as a hard-headed, budget-balancing, federalism-respecting compassionate moderate. And on foreign and defense policy, look for Dean to say that he was and remains anti-Iraq war (as, he will point out, were lots of traditional centrist foreign policy types). But Dean will emphasize that he has never ruled out the use of force (including unilaterally). Indeed, he will say, he believes in military strength so strongly that he thinks we should increase the size of the Army by a division or two. It's Bush, Dean will point out, who's trying to deal with the new, post-Sept. 11 world with a pre-Sept. 11 military.

But what about Sept. 11? Surely Bush's response to the attacks, and his overall leadership in the war on terrorism, remain compelling reasons to keep him in office. They do for me. But while Bush is committed to victory in that war, his secretary of state seems committed to diplomatic compromise, and his secretary of defense to an odd kind of muscle-flexing-disengagement. And when Bush's chief of staff, Andrew H. Card Jr., said on Sunday with regard to Iraq, "We're going to get out of there as quickly as we can, but not before we finish the mission at hand," one wonders: Wouldn't Howard Dean agree with that formulation? Indeed, doesn't the first half of that sentence suggest that even the most senior of Bush's subordinates haven't really internalized the president's view of the fundamental character of this war? If they haven't, will the American people grasp the need for Bush's continued leadership on Nov. 2? If not, prepare for President Dean.

The writer is editor of the Weekly Standard.

© 2003 The Washington Post Company

washingtonpost.com
How Dean Could Win . . .


By William Kristol
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #186 of 269
hmmm... let's see... musta been a governor from a poor southern state... hmmm... he wasn't supposed to have a chance against a President that lead us through a successful war...
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post #187 of 269
harlem is apparently turning into the venue to do endorsing.
congressman rangel to endorse general clark
post #188 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by chu_bakka
hmmm... let's see... musta been a governor from a poor southern state... hmmm... he wasn't supposed to have a chance against a President that lead us through a successful war...

now all we need is a popular democrat from the south and a looney moderate whack-job to mount an independent presidential bid.

hmmmm. what's jesse ventura doing?
post #189 of 269
For everyone's information Bill Kristol, the author of the lengthy article above, is the prince of darkness himself, the granddady and patron of a whole generation of neo-conservative thinkers.

It's unclear why he is writing this editorial, but it is worthy of note.
post #190 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by Curufinwe
For everyone's information Bill Kristol, the author, is the prince of darkness himself, the granddady and patron of a whole generation of neo-conservative thinkers.

It's unclear why he is writing this editorial, but it is worthy of note.

it's a clarion call, to wake up his brethren, newt gingrich (the duke of darkness?) issued one as well.
post #191 of 269
post #192 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
Going into the final day of the college football regular season.... By William Kristol

Meh. I linked to this article on page one of the thread.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #193 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Meh. I linked to this article on page one of the thread.

addaboy addabox, you sure did!


people don't bother to read the whole thread sometimes. . . c'est la vie.
post #194 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by Curufinwe
addaboy addabox, you sure did!


people don't bother to read the whole thread sometimes. . . c'est la vie.

Must get credit! Me! Me! Me!
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #195 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by chu_bakka
hmmm... let's see... musta been a governor from a poor southern state... hmmm... he wasn't supposed to have a chance against a President that lead us through a successful war...

Remember that old Mad TV skit? Lowered Expectaaaaations....
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #196 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
one other reason i want the democratic nominee to be seriously poised to win.

and that's to see trumtman cry like a little baby.

Please 8 years of Clinton gave the Republicans both houses. I'll cry all the way to the bank.

Besides if liberals winning made my day untenable, how the hell could I live in Califoria?

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #197 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by Curufinwe
For everyone's information Bill Kristol, the author of the lengthy article above, is the prince of darkness himself, the granddady and patron of a whole generation of neo-conservative thinkers.

It's unclear why he is writing this editorial, but it is worthy of note.

Well being the prince of darkness, he is probably doing it some the Bushies can get another 100-200 million out of their supporters.

Lack of threat, lack of money. Hence why Bush is such a constant evil threat who is winning and turning back the clock at all corners while also being too stupid to know which end of his toothbruch to use.

No threat = no money.


Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #198 of 269
that's true, perhaps you're a masochist?
post #199 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
one other reason i want the democratic nominee to be seriously poised to win.

and that's to see trumtman cry like a little baby.


Can't help reading this thread and smile. I just know this smile is going to turn into a thunderous laugh come election day.
post #200 of 269
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Existence
http://www.salon.com/opinion/blument...ore/print.html

She gets it.

Sidney Blumenthal is a man.
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