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The official Dean's thread - Page 7

post #241 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Yes Dean has already forgone matching funds because he has no idea where his money is coming from, or if it is going to come.

So that's why Dean didn't opt for the FMF! Silly me, I thought it was because you can't campaign effectively against a fundraising *machine* like Bush with that kind of handicap.

Here. It's an article from Harper's about how Bush's fundraising machine works.

Cheers
Scott
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #242 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
I don't think you even my post. How is having someone from the campaign personally come to your door your idea of sleepwalking through the campaign?

You are the one naive enough to believe that Dean doesn't control or set goals for his campaign. You think of him as just the guy who caught the wave of discontent and is surfing it. So again when Bush has an organization that works with and down to the personal level, that is grassroots.

The funniest thing of all is how Bush is constantly portrayed as an idiot yet people mock his campaign for having so many goals, reports in about activities, timelines, deadlines, etc. Yep that sounds like a guy who has no clue and no intellect to me.

Yes Dean has already forgone matching funds because he has no idea where his money is coming from, or if it is going to come.

Get a clue.

Nick

Sorry. Doesn't stick. Grassroots works from the bottom up. Not like GWB's campaign this year which works from the top down. Big difference. There are no subtleties or gray areas here. It's either a grassroots movement or it is not.

Grassroots is when "the people" decide to do something, NOT when the party tells them too. Having the GOP send out soldiers to sign up new voters is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the people seeking the candidate out on their own. What a crock!

Your team wouldn't even be considering this term if it weren't for Howard Dean. This is the most disingenuous notion to come from the Bush campaign headquarters yet and further evidence that you have absolutely no ideas what's truly going on in America right now.

From The Washington Post :

Quote:
Organization alone cannot elect Bush to a second term. Given the reality that the president's campaign team cannot control such potentially decisive factors as the economy or events in Iraq, officials are determined to maximize their advantage in areas they can control. Rarely has a reelection committee begun organizing so early or intensively -- or with the kind of determination to hold state party and campaign officials, and their volunteers, accountable for meeting the goals of the Bush team.

In Ohio, for example, more than 70 elected officials and volunteer workers dial into a conference call every other Wednesday at 7 p.m. to report on their efforts to recruit leaders and voters, and to hear updates from Bush's campaign headquarters in Arlington. Roll is called, which initially surprised participants used to less regimented political operations.


Roll call? Accountability for sign-up quotas? This is not how the Dean campaign is ran. Not even remotely.

A true, authentic "grassroots" movement does not require regimented quotas and deadlines. The movement itself is highly motivated and often surpasses expectations without such Gestapo tactics. Witness the recent phenomenon of true, authentic grassroots members constantly outraising funds that surpass the Dean campaign's expectations. You can mock all you want, but it's real and it's palpable.

Quote:
Republican officials say these efforts are necessary to counteract voter mobilization by Democrats and their allies in organized labor and liberal interest groups, who plan to spend substantially more than $100 million on get-out-the-vote efforts.

Although Republicans have their own network of outside groups, from the National Rifle Association and the National Federation of Independent Business to the Christian Coalition, GOP strategists say privately that none of them comes close to matching the resources, sophistication or fealty of organized labor and liberal groups.

"...none of them comes close to matching the sources..." That's f*cking funny!

Also, I noticed the GWB's blog doesn't allow its readers to post comments. There apparently is no forum either. The Dean campaign reads what their membership posts constantly. Several fantastic ideas have emerged from the blog. This will only strengthen the candidate. GWB's site appears to be fearful of opening up its blog to comments. Perhaps they're afraid of Trolls running amok. Oh, well.

What's next? Will GWB starting ending his stump speeches with, "You have the power!" It wouldn't surprise me.
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post #243 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
Sorry. Doesn't stick. Grassroots works from the bottom up. Not like GWB's campaign this year which works from the top down. Big difference. There are no subtleties or gray areas here. It's either a grassroots movement or it is not.

If I did drugs, I would want some of yours because obviously they are quite powerful.

The Dean campaign is no different from any other campaign. If you want a true example of a grassroots campaign, try the California Recall, oh but of course that was a "circus" even while it turned out record numbers of voters, signed up millions of new voters, and while started by one man, wasn't even about him after the momentum got startec.

No matter what you want to claim, no matter what Dean tries to claim, there wasn't some movement that was already going and just happened to pick him. As I mentioned before he makes it sound like some wave he just happened to catch. It is part of his marketing and you find him using the exact same campaign organizing principles as any other candidate.

Quote:
Grassroots is when "the people" decide to do something, NOT when the party tells them too. Having the GOP send out soldiers to sign up new voters is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the people seeking the candidate out on their own. What a crock!

Oh yeah, "the people." Of course "the party" read Al Gore isn't trying to run off the other candidates when he tells them it is best to quit. The GOP is signing up new voters and so is the Democratic Party, you assign sinister motives to even registering people to vote?!? People are seeking someone to represent them. Someone comes along and give them information, or points them to the information. They become involved and vote. Of course on the Dean side this is "grassroots" and on the Republican side, it is the Nazism.

Dean's site is so self-rightous and filled with "thoughtspeak" that it sounds more Orwellian than anything else I have encountered in a long time. He takes so many common principles and assigns them exclusively to himself that it is a little scary.

Quote:
Victory Days are democracy in action. Next week Dean supporters will gather in cities and towns across America to work to win the Iowa caucuses and the New Hampshire primary by writing letters to undecided voters.

Hmmm.... sounds a little top down to me. I don't see people just spontaniously writing letters. Sounds a little top-down planned to me.

Nice Deanspeak there as well. When you work for Dean, it is Democracy in action. When you don't... well I guess it isn't.

Quote:
So begins Howard Dean's pamplet "Common Sense for a New Century," over 500,000 copies of which were distributed this week to Dean supporters across the nation.

Hmmm... top down again. This wasn't some local person who just put some thoughts and feelings into writing and a lot of people discovered they had similar feelings and then, wow Dean does too. It is again, top down.

I could go on and on, but the point is, his campaign is no different than any other, no matter how much jinglism or sloganism he tosses around.

Quote:
Roll call? Accountability for sign-up quotas? This is not how the Dean campaign is ran. Not even remotely.

A true, authentic "grassroots" movement does not require regimented quotas and deadlines. The movement itself is highly motivated and often surpasses expectations without such Gestapo tactics. Witness the recent phenomenon of true, authentic grassroots members constantly outraising funds that surpass the Dean campaign's expectations. You can mock all you want, but it's real and it's palpable.

Yes no deadlines and quotas. I mean something like 2 million Americans x $100 is.... well sounds like a quota to me. Of and the list of upcoming fund raisers all planned by and for Deans sounds... so ... grassroots... really.

Then of course there is the TeamDean, where you can be a heavy hitter by using the Dean website, and Dean provided space to raise money for... Dean.. because darn it this isn't top down. What's next... DeanPioneers. Note that you get your own bat to track how much of a "heavy hitter" you are when funding raising for Dean. Of course the percentages on that bat don't represent deadlines, quotas, an expectation or anything else centrally imposed.

Quote:
What is your fundraising goal? We appreciate whatever you raise, but remember that $2,000 is the First Team level, and $5,000 is the MVP level. You can change your goal at any time after you register.

Hahahahaha

Quote:
"...none of them comes close to matching the sources..." That's f*cking funny!

Also, I noticed the GWB's blog doesn't allow its readers to post comments. There apparently is no forum either. The Dean campaign reads what their membership posts constantly. Several fantastic ideas have emerged from the blog. This will only strengthen the candidate. GWB's site appears to be fearful of opening up its blog to comments. Perhaps they're afraid of Trolls running amok. Oh, well.

Gee Bush allows me to submit questions for online chats whereas Dean doesn't even show any upcoming chats, so he must be a Nazi.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #244 of 269
I love how when Dean comes to my town. I'll get to meet him first hand since I'm a supporter of "Democracy" and "Taking my Country Back."

Now all I need is $2000 for my grassroots campaign.

Dean at House of Blues

Isn't it great to see how Dean is so different from every other politician. You have the power... to give all your money, time and of course vote to Howard Dean.!


Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #245 of 269
Hey thanks for the link to the Dean Blog. I am learning so much about Dean.

Like this...
Quote:
VERMONT: THE NEW BERMUDA
by Josh Benson

Candidate: Howard Dean
Category: Intellectual Honesty
Grade: F

Deanophiles love to spin their candidate's weaknesses into strengths--arrogance is a sign of conviction, tactlessness is straight-talk, and so forth. So I'm curious to see how they'll spin the latest Dean misstep: hypocrisy.

Turns out that while old Howard has been bashing the coziness of the Bush administration with corporate America, Vermont has quietly become the leading state for a dubious tax-break scheme known as "captive insurance"--under Dean's direction.

As reported in today's Boston Globe, captive insurance is essentially a way to shield corporate profits from state taxes. It starts when a parent company uses one of its own subsidiaries for insurance. The parent company makes premium payments to the subsidiary for the insurance policy, and Vermont takes a piece of those premiums in taxes. So far, so good. But under the Vermont law that Dean pushed, the subsidiary can then reinvest those premiums and keep the resulting profits tax-free. The captive insurance operation may even allow non-Vermont companies to dodge their home states' tax bills.

As a University of Connecticut law school professor told the Globe, "Dean apparently has no problems with tax havens as long as they are in the state of Vermont." And what an operation he's built: by introducing tax breaks and successfully scuttling a proposed Clinton-era regulation designed to stymie the scheme, Dean ensured Vermont is home to more captive insurers than the rest of the country combined. In 2001, he boasted that he wanted Vermont to "overtake Bermuda" as the number one destination for such operations.

Did we mention Enron opened an office in Montpelier to take advantage of the deal?

Asked about captive insurers, the Dean campaign retreated into precisely the hyper-cautious language it ridicules in others: "This is a legitimate industry, perfectly legal," a Dean spokesman said. No word yet on whether there's a "controlling legal authority" to sort through all this.
Posted by Ouch at December 12, 2003 07:17 PM

I'm so glad Dean will help me take back my tax havens.. err.. country.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #246 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Hey thanks for the link to the Dean Blog. I am learning so much about Dean.

Like this...


I'm so glad Dean will help me take back my tax havens.. err.. country.

Nick

Dean is sick.... just sick.

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #247 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
If I did drugs, I would want some of yours because obviously they are quite powerful.



Quote:
The Dean campaign is no different from any other campaign. If you want a true example of a grassroots campaign, try the California Recall, oh but of course that was a "circus" even while it turned out record numbers of voters, signed up millions of new voters, and while started by one man, wasn't even about him after the momentum got startec.

I also remember a lot of people saying that the Dean campaign is running on a similar "anti-incumbant" platform as Schwarzy's and that it could be equally as powerful. Hmm.

Quote:
No matter what you want to claim, no matter what Dean tries to claim, there wasn't some movement that was already going and just happened to pick him.

Umm. Not true. How else do you explain his meteoric rise to the top? It certainly wasn't through the sheer will of his personality.

Quote:
Of course on the Dean side this is "grassroots" and on the Republican side, it is the Nazism.

Whatever. Somehow I suspect you wouldn't allow anyone else on this forum to get away with this. I didn't even remotely relate Bush's campaign to Nazism. I simply said I was dumbfounded by the blatant re-framing of the term "grassroots" by Rove, Inc.

You used to debate intellectually. What happened?

Quote:
Dean's site is so self-rightous and filled with "thoughtspeak" that it sounds more Orwellian than anything else I have encountered in a long time. He takes so many common principles and assigns them exclusively to himself that it is a little scary.

Orwellian? That's original. If memory serves we were supposed to be "uniting" and full of "compassion" and not "nation building."

Quote:
Hmmm.... sounds a little top down to me. I don't see people just spontaniously writing letters. Sounds a little top-down planned to me.

Well you're certainly not looking in the right place. I volunteered to write letters when it was a suggestion by a blogger several months ago. But, you weren't there for that. It was another blogger who suggested that hand-written letters would be better received.

I even drove myself to the letter writing party. I wasn't recruited, let alone forced into quotas. In fact, there wasn't even a signup sheet with a letter quota that I must meet. Even Bush's own "ground troups" are dismayed at the heavy-handed tactics being deployed by Rove, Inc.

And yes, I want my cookie!


Quote:
Hmmm... top down again. This wasn't some local person who just put some thoughts and feelings into writing and a lot of people discovered they had similar feelings and then, wow Dean does too. It is again, top down.

Actually, there are several instances where bloggers have contributed ideas that the campaign has incorporated. But, I guess you didn't really do all that much research, did you? Because if you did, you really wouldn't be walking away from the site or the blog with such a dismissing, arrogant attitude. This campaign has the most symbiotic relationship with its supporters that I have ever witnessed in my lifetime. You might find that "charming" but ineffective. We'll see in November.

Quote:
I could go on and on, but the point is, his campaign is no different than any other, no matter how much jinglism or sloganism he tosses around.

If that's true, then why is the RNC and Rove, Inc. suddenly using the term grassroots to describe their efforts? They never used it before. Again, you are arguing that grassroots and campaigning are equal, the same thing, when they are not. So, thanks for proving my point that your goal is to hijack the word, diffuse it, completely deplete its original meaning and in a single breath complete dismiss the power of it.

Also, no one ever said it wasn't a CAMPAIGN! The only thing distinguishing this campaign from all the others is the overwhelming support from average Americans who are enthusiastically rallying around their candidate. The "grassroots" element applies simply because 90% of all the Deaniacs have never participated in politics, let alone volunteered time for a campaign. 90% of Bush's "Rangers" are hard-core activists from the 2000 election.

And signing up new voters is not a grassroots movement, on either side of the fence. It's simply...signing up voters.

Quote:
Yes no deadlines and quotas. I mean something like 2 million Americans x $100 is.... well sounds like a quota to me. Of and the list of upcoming fund raisers all planned by and for Deans sounds... so ... grassroots... really.

Quotas and Goals are two separate things. Nice spin though.

Quote:
Then of course there is the TeamDean, where you can be a heavy hitter by using the Dean website, and Dean provided space to raise money for... Dean.. because darn it this isn't top down. What's next... DeanPioneers. Note that you get your own bat to track how much of a "heavy hitter" you are when funding raising for Dean. Of course the percentages on that bat don't represent deadlines, quotas, an expectation or anything else centrally imposed.

It's not imposed. It was asked for. The bloggers asked for the bat. They wanted something that symbolized how much money they've raised. Dean or Trippi didn't do it. The bloggers asked and they received. Grassroots.

Again, because you have not been paying attention to the Dean movement (and I don't expect you to) you haven't been there to witness the site, the blog, the MeetUp events all being shaped and ran...wait for it...by the Dean grassroots movement. Not by the campaign. The people.

You also forgot to mention that Dean is also helping out fellow Congressional Democrats by asking his supporters to donate money to their campaigns. But, hey, it's ALL about Dean, right?

Quote:
Gee Bush allows me to submit questions for online chats whereas Dean doesn't even show any upcoming chats, so he must be a Nazi.

There you go again with your fascination with Nazis. Why do you keep equating a ligitmate dispute about "marketing" with "evil" and Nazis?

Dean and Trippi are constantly on the Blogs and in the Forum. You don't have to "submit" a question and wait for upcoming chats. It's all live, right there, right now. No waiting for calibrated answers.
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post #248 of 269
While we're talking about Deniacs having their heads up their proverbial asses, I thought I'd provide this interesting outlook:

Michael Tomasky at the American Prospect argues that it's time for party insiders to understand what the the greatest grassroots campaign of the modern era means to the Democratic party.

After the bottom fell out from under the Democratic party in 1988, Tomasky argues in today's must-read, it was Bill Clinton who rebuilt the party ideologically and as a fundraising machine:

Quote:
But there is one way in which Clinton did not rebuild the Democratic Party: from the ground up....

This is where Howard Dean comes in.... Clinton rebuilt... the superstructure. Dean is rebuilding the base....

There's a tricky thing about this rebuilding stage, though: It excludes party insiders. It has nothing to do with Washington. It's no wonder that Democratic insiders, so accustomed to having complete ownership of a process like a party primary campaign, should dislike Dean and even fear him: He has stolen the process right out of their hands. He is not "of" them in any way, shape or form. In fact, his accumulating successes merely serve to emphasize their irrelevance to this rebuilding stage....

At this point, after he has amassed the armies of small donors and bloggers and volunteers, blocking Dean is not blocking one man. It's blocking the hopes of millions of Democrats whounderstand the importance of thiswould walk through fire for a candidate for the first time in their lives. That isn't something that should be done cavalierly; in the long term, blocking the active participation of these millions may do more damage to the Democratic Party than four more years of George W. Bush.

Besides, insurgents do win sometimes. Because the standard historical analogies to Dean (McGovern, Barry Goldwater) have now run their course, let me add two more to the mix. The first is Andrew Jacksoninvoked, significantly, by Dean himself at the Dec. 9 endorsement event with Gore. Say all you want about 1828 being ancient history, but some things are eternal. Bringing new constituencies into the process and transforming politics through that infusion is one of them. Yesterday it was the pamphleteer, today it's the blogger; but the impulse and the ardor are the same....

Insiders need to start thinking about making their peace with Deanism. The partythe (still) post-1988 partyneeds a rebuilt base, and Dean is doing that in a way that has no precedent. And instead of fretting about all the ways Dean could lose, the insiders might do better to spend some time thinking about how he might win....

Because he might. [Bush] has the powers of incumbency, money and a feared (actually, overly feared) political operation. But his numbers are soft. Gore's 2000 states plus Ohio or Arizona is a long, long way from being an impossible taskfor Dean or for any of the aforementioned.

So let the race begin. And expect the impossible. It happens often.
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post #249 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Dean is sick.... just sick.

Fellowship

Hey fellows, considering that no candidate is perfect or has done everything perfectly according one's particular ideology, how do you square all the ugly facts about Clark's ties to the Republican party and dissent amongst fellow Generals who worked with him?

Personally, I think Clark's a fine man. He obviously demands respect. And if he becomes the nominee I would be honored to support him. But, I don't think he's ready for prime time yet. There are some issues with a lot of his policies I don't like.

Like Clark, Dean's record has a couple skeletons he'll need to square. But, both men have served their country. There are very very few men who cam claim Clark's credentials as having devoted his "entire" life to public service. But, service the country they both did.

So lighten up on "hate" speech and vitriol a bit, okay?
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #250 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
If I did drugs, I would want some of yours because obviously they are quite powerful.



I'm with you there, Northgate. That was pretty damn cringe-worthy.
post #251 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate

So lighten up on "hate" speech and vitriol a bit, okay?

Ohhh come "hate" speech? I thought people said only the Bush camp via John Ashcroft deemed dissenting views as "Hate" speech.

Of course I can dig up some



Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #252 of 269
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
I love how when Dean comes to my town. I'll get to meet him first hand since I'm a supporter of "Democracy" and "Taking my Country Back."

Now all I need is $2000 for my grassroots campaign.

Dean at House of Blues

Isn't it great to see how Dean is so different from every other politician. You have the power... to give all your money, time and of course vote to Howard Dean.!


Nick

What's your point?
post #253 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate

Whatever. Somehow I suspect you wouldn't allow anyone else on this forum to get away with this. I didn't even remotely relate Bush's campaign to Nazism. I simply said I was dumbfounded by the blatant re-framing of the term "grassroots" by Rove, Inc.

You used to debate intellectually. What happened?

I'll address this one seperately because... well it deserves it.

For the uninformed...
1. The German internal security police as organized under the Nazi regime, known for its terrorist methods directed against those suspected of treason or questionable loyalty.
2. gestapopl. ge·sta·pos A police organization that employs terroristic methods to control a populace.


So here's a hint. We you say someone is using Gestapo tactics as you did regarding Bushes campaign, you are relating them to Nazism since they were organized by the... you guessed it Nazi regime.

I do debate intellectually. What happened is that you want to imply and then back away from something and I called you on it.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #254 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate


I also remember a lot of people saying that the Dean campaign is running on a similar "anti-incumbant" platform as Schwarzy's and that it could be equally as powerful. Hmm.

People saying is one thing. People doing is another. Last time I checked the recall was done and then we went and got some candidates. Seems Dean jumped in to this from the get go. Heck even Clark can be claimed to have had more of a grassroots movement draft him than Dean. Dean being grassroots is just a marketing message. He runs the same type of campaign as everyone else.

Quote:
Orwellian? That's original. If memory serves we were supposed to be "uniting" and full of "compassion" and not "nation building."

Assigning labels to describe yourself is not the same as taking entire institutions and claiming only you represent them. "Drive for Democracy" oh, only Dean can make the U.S. a Democracy? Please...you show it yourself by saying everyone is now claiming Dean's word... grassroots when obviously Clark got into the race because of a grassroots effort as well. You are taking words and giving Dean exclusive use of them, which is exactly the marketing he promotes. You have bought it hook, line and sinker.

Quote:
Well you're certainly not looking in the right place. I volunteered to write letters when it was a suggestion by a blogger several months ago. But, you weren't there for that. It was another blogger who suggested that hand-written letters would be better received.

I even drove myself to the letter writing party. I wasn't recruited, let alone forced into quotas. In fact, there wasn't even a signup sheet with a letter quota that I must meet. Even Bush's own "ground troups" are dismayed at the heavy-handed tactics being deployed by Rove, Inc.

And yes, I want my cookie!

Well then your perceptions are a little flawed because when I look at the Dean site, I see goals, dates, timelines, etc. all over the place. I even mentioned the bat with the percentiles for fund raising. In fact I would say the clearest message on the entire site is "Give me more money, today, tomorrow, periodically, etc."

Quote:
Actually, there are several instances where bloggers have contributed ideas that the campaign has incorporated. But, I guess you didn't really do all that much research, did you? Because if you did, you really wouldn't be walking away from the site or the blog with such a dismissing, arrogant attitude. This campaign has the most symbiotic relationship with its supporters that I have ever witnessed in my lifetime. You might find that "charming" but ineffective. We'll see in November.

Look North, you work in entertainment. You know how easy it is to create relationships that aren't really there, people just perceive them. Are you truly sure the ideas came from the blog, or they were already waiting to do them and just used the blog as the excuse. People think they have relationships with the people acting on television. People think screaming at a TV improves the performance of their sports team. I don't dismiss it because I did no research. It is because I recognize sloganism, jinglism, and good marketing when I see it. The whole site and message screams, "You ARE disaffected but you can be empowered here, for $25, by writing a letter or 50, by signing up your friends, etc..."

Quote:
If that's true, then why is the RNC and Rove, Inc. suddenly using the term grassroots to describe their efforts? They never used it before. Again, you are arguing that grassroots and campaigning are equal, the same thing, when they are not. So, thanks for proving my point that your goal is to hijack the word, diffuse it, completely deplete its original meaning and in a single breath complete dismiss the power of it.

This one is special for North... I looked it up special just for you.

CNN ALLPolitics 2000

Quote:
In Daytona, Bush told a mixed crowd of senior citizens, veterans and young voters that the grassroots efforts of his state campaign organization simply had to pay big dividends if he is to claim Florida. The state has become a treacherous battleground for both Bush and Gore, whose battles over federal entitlements have split opinions among the state's vast senior population.

Oh... no that is impossible. The Dean site said only they were grassroots. Bush can't use that word. He is evil and just used it because cool Dean did. Even Dean didn't think up grassroots, it came from the blog.

Actually there is a minor political party that calls themselves the Grassroots Party. They have two state parties in the last election. One in Kentucky and one in... Vermont. Hey what state was Dean governor of again? Hmmmmm.....

Of course they are organized around getting marijuana legalized... but they don't appear to be too motivated or organized. Maybe someone "borrowed" a bit from them and put some more organization and conservative ideas behind those words. Naw, that would be evil and gestapo-ish.

Quote:
Also, no one ever said it wasn't a CAMPAIGN! The only thing distinguishing this campaign from all the others is the overwhelming support from average Americans who are enthusiastically rallying around their candidate. The "grassroots" element applies simply because 90% of all the Deaniacs have never participated in politics, let alone volunteered time for a campaign. 90% of Bush's "Rangers" are hard-core activists from the 2000 election.

Average americans? Well we will see how well Dean does in the south first of all. I mean he does have the endorsement of Gore who..oh didn't he lose the entire South including Tennessee? Oh well perhaps he will do better.

As for the rest, well again... I'm sure you will keep drinking the kool-aid.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #255 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
I'll address this one seperately because... well it deserves it.

For the uninformed...
1. The German internal security police as organized under the Nazi regime, known for its terrorist methods directed against those suspected of treason or questionable loyalty.
2. gestapopl. ge·sta·pos A police organization that employs terroristic methods to control a populace.


So here's a hint. We you say someone is using Gestapo tactics as you did regarding Bushes campaign, you are relating them to Nazism since they were organized by the... you guessed it Nazi regime.

I do debate intellectually. What happened is that you want to imply and then back away from something and I called you on it.

Nick

No. You imply that definition #1 is the intention behind the word usage when, in fact, definition #2 is the true intent.
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post #256 of 269
Go on. Keep convincing yourself that Bush is enjoying the great grassroots movement of the last fifty years.

And he shouldn't even need a grassroots campaign--he 's the f*cking president!
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post #257 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Well then your perceptions are a little flawed because when I look at the Dean site, I see goals, dates, timelines, etc. all over the place. I even mentioned the bat with the percentiles for fund raising. In fact I would say the clearest message on the entire site is "Give me more money, today, tomorrow, periodically, etc." [/B]

Psst. Everyone gather 'round. Trumptman's giving me a lecture about Howard Dean's website raising campaign funds.

Bush Fund Raising Record - $106,000,000.00 with no sign of slowing down!

Now that's rich.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #258 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
Psst. Everyone gather 'round. Trumptman's giving me a lecture about Howard Dean's website raising campaign funds.

Bush Fund Raising Record - $106,000,000.00 with no sign of slowing down!

Now that's rich.


$$$$ yeah Duluth baby!!! I'm in college here!! WHOOOOOHOOOOOOO .....oh yeah....terrible....umm what are we talking about???
And all that could have been.
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And all that could have been.
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post #259 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
Go on. Keep convincing yourself that Bush is enjoying the great grassroots movement of the last fifty years.

And he shouldn't even need a grassroots campaign--he 's the f*cking president!

But he is. I haven't read through the whole thread, but he has 6,000,000 supporters signed up to Dean's 600,000. The Bush campaign is going to be unbeleivable.

But go on. Keep convincing youself that this is 1992.
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post #260 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
Psst. Everyone gather 'round. Trumptman's giving me a lecture about Howard Dean's website raising campaign funds.

Bush Fund Raising Record - $106,000,000.00 with no sign of slowing down!

Now that's rich.

Yes, kiddies and remember when you give to Dean it is supporting Democracy and taking back your country. But when you give to Bush it is supporting the Gestapo.

No double standard though...

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #261 of 269
Note : merged SDW 2001 thread.

Shawn J, Trumptman i can merge your threads too, if you want. Just ask.
post #262 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
Note : merged SDW 2001 thread.

Shawn J, Trumptman i can merge your threads too, if you want. Just ask.

Sure...why not.

BTW is anyone able to find on the Dean website where he supports Kyoto? I find where he says he will renegotiate it. But I can't see where he supports the current one.

You know, the one Clinton "supported" but then wouldn't send to the Senate who would have voted it down 95-0. Thus we all now know that Bush is an evil gas/oil despoil the environment type of guy while Clinton the "environmentalist" just supports things but via an executive order that take place 4 years after he leaves (water treatment) or by not sending it to the Senate to be ratified. (Kyoto)

Seems Dean would have the U.S. defy the wishes of the rest of the world as well and unilaterally seek to have the U.S. held to a different, lower standard for Kyoto. He must be doing it for all those special business interests he gave tax breaks to as governor of Vermont. All environmental types know that reopening or negotiating Kyoto is special code for stripping it.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #263 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Seems Dean would have the U.S. defy the wishes of the rest of the world as well and unilaterally seek to have the U.S. held to a different, lower standard for Kyoto.

Now this is speculation on your part, but even if we accept it as truth, how is this as bad as killing it completely? Oh, it's not. I forgot.
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post #264 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
Now this is speculation on your part, but even if we accept it as truth, how is this as bad as killing it completely? Oh, it's not. I forgot.

Again it is the same sort of issue where the same actions are assigned completely different motives.

Did it occur to you that Bush couldn't renegotiate the treaty because the other parties wouldn't allow it.

CNN-Kyoto renegotiation for US ruled out.

But of course after Bush stood firm, they started to give a bit.

But of course they would have just renegotiated it for Dean because...well he says so.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #265 of 269
Does anyone belive there's actually 6 millions Bush supporters active in his campaign?

All the RNC did was take their mailing list and say..."LOOK AT OUR GRASS ROOTS SUPPORT!"

Wow! Look at the grassroots support Victoria's Secret has! hehe.
A Fair and Balanced Liberal

John Kerry for President
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A Fair and Balanced Liberal

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post #266 of 269
OMG, someone ran an attack ad against Dean. Freedom, your country, and your campaign. You most show your outrage for this by giving me $400,000 by Tuesday at midnight or else we won't be able to prove that Democrats are better than this. They are trying to take your party, country and other Americans out of the process.

I swear we won't let this happen in Florida in 20... what, oh this is about other Democrats?... yeah well, I still need $400,000 worth of outrage by Tuesday at midnight or else your voice COULD be silenced and THEY... the secret organizations, could win.

Orwellian to the nth degree in my book.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #267 of 269
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
OMG, someone ran an attack ad against Dean. Freedom, your country, and your campaign. You most show your outrage for this by giving me $400,000 by Tuesday at midnight or else we won't be able to prove that Democrats are better than this. They are trying to take your party, country and other Americans out of the process.

I swear we won't let this happen in Florida in 20... what, oh this is about other Democrats?... yeah well, I still need $400,000 worth of outrage by Tuesday at midnight or else your voice COULD be silenced and THEY... the secret organizations, could win.

Orwellian to the nth degree in my book.

Nick

*wags finger didactically at trumptman*

Now, now. You know not to use big words you don't understand. If Dean is being "Orwellian," I'm not really seeing it so maybe you should point it out. Nevermind being "Orwellian to the nth degree." Oh trumptman.
post #268 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
OMG, someone ran an attack ad against Dean. Freedom, your country, and your campaign. You most show your outrage for this by giving me $400,000 by Tuesday at midnight or else we won't be able to prove that Democrats are better than this. They are trying to take your party, country and other Americans out of the process.

I swear we won't let this happen in Florida in 20... what, oh this is about other Democrats?... yeah well, I still need $400,000 worth of outrage by Tuesday at midnight or else your voice COULD be silenced and THEY... the secret organizations, could win.

Orwellian to the nth degree in my book.

Nick

The Hypocrisy Astounds!
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #269 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Again it is the same sort of issue where the same actions are assigned completely different motives.

Did it occur to you that Bush couldn't renegotiate the treaty because the other parties wouldn't allow it.

CNN-Kyoto renegotiation for US ruled out.

But of course after Bush stood firm, they started to give a bit.

But of course they would have just renegotiated it for Dean because...well he says so.

Nick

When are you Republicans going to get it through your thick f*cking heads that President Bush has single-handedly destroyed our reputation on the world stage. He will never be able to fix this himself. There isn't a single country left on this planet (with the exception of the coalition ) that believes what we (Bush) say anymore. They all believe we are only looking out for ourselves and that we have abandoned our responsibilities as the only remaining super-power.

We are not safer than we were four years ago.

It will only take a different, more liberal minded, president to repair this. Laugh, mock, roll your eyes, I don't give a shit. The concept for repair is cyrstaline in my mind.

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