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The official Dean's thread - Page 2

post #41 of 269
boy i'm no dean fan, but in fairness to governor dean, he's now paying for the usage of the plane. and not using it anymore.
and as for locking up his records, both (then governors) clinton and bush did the same thing. he's just being honest about why.
he doesn't want any "willy horton's" popping up on the campaign trail. he said he'd release his records when president bush does.
i give him credit for being honest about it, but that's precisely why he can't win. he does the political trick and is too candid about it.

jeesh i feel like scott, except i explained myself.
post #42 of 269
Is anyone else seeing a "Wesley Clark 2004" banner ad when they load this page?
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post #43 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
boy i'm no dean fan, but in fairness to governor dean, he's now paying for the usage of the plane. and not using it anymore.
and as for locking up his records, both (then governors) clinton and bush did the same thing. he's just being honest about why.
he doesn't want any "willy horton's" popping up on the campaign trail. he said he'd release his records when president bush does.
i give him credit for being honest about it, but that's precisely why he can't win. he does the political trick and is too candid about it.

jeesh i feel like scott, except i explained myself.

Well said. I admire people who put into writing their honest take.

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post #44 of 269
You didn't find any of this behaviour desturbing before you voted for Bush last time around.

First. The headquarters moving to Bermuda... while wrong... is completely legal under the tax code as it stands now. Which Dean wants to change.

Dean has every right to seal his papers under executive privilege. He may have nothing to hide... but the republicans are good at making mountains out of mole hills.

I'm sure Dean would release his files if Bush releases his from when he was Governor of Texas and before that.
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post #45 of 269
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
[B]The only actual problem with Dean as a Democratic candidate is that he has had the 'unelectable' tag hung around his neck./B]

I think it's his advantage. I mean, yes, I'm angered whenever conservative democrats and republicans say he's unelectable, but I think it plays to his advantage. People have been saying he can't do anything and yet he has. Dare I say he may benefit from the same low-expectations that President Bush benefited from in last election. We might have an unbeatable incumbent President and an unelectable challenger who has exceeded all expectations set for him. I think it's exciting.
post #46 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by chu_bakka
You didn't find any of this behaviour desturbing before you voted for Bush last time around.

First. The headquarters moving to Bermuda... while wrong... is completely legal under the tax code as it stands now. Which Dean wants to change.

Dean has every right to seal his papers under executive privilege. He may have nothing to hide... but the republicans are good at making mountains out of mole hills.

I'm sure Dean would release his files if Bush releases his from when he was Governor of Texas and before that.

WOW I have changed chu_bakka.... I am SICK of the politics of deception and lies. Hence why I am leaving Bush after being a lifelong republican.

You want to play this game of "Well they did it so He can do it" ???

I hope you are kidding

I for one want honest government or more so than it is now. Not excuses for why we should wink at corruption.

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Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

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post #47 of 269
Heh, well I guess Gore actually took a little longer to dismiss Lieberman than the rest of the Democrats.
post #48 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by Gizzmonic
Is anyone else seeing a "Wesley Clark 2004" banner ad when they load this page?

LOL how funny I just noticed that.

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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #49 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
jeesh i feel like scott, except i explained myself.

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post #50 of 269
If he hasn't snorted any coke, then he seems alright by me.
post #51 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by Gizzmonic
Is anyone else seeing a "Wesley Clark 2004" banner ad when they load this page?

No, but you could use that "tiny little camera" to look at a Wesley Clark banner, I suppose.

(At least once I reboot this PC my new hosts file, complete with "0.0.0.0 media.fastclick.net" entry, will kick in.)
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post #52 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Gore to endorse Howard Dean!

post #53 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by the cool gut
If he hasn't snorted any coke, then he seems alright by me.

What's wrong with snorting coke?

 

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post #54 of 269
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
What's wrong with snorting coke?

Drugz r bad, dude! *ducks*
post #55 of 269
If you think Dean is doing the same things as Bush is... don't vote for him.

I don't think he is.
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post #56 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
What's wrong with snorting coke?

It makes users greedy and selfish. Coke users are not the kind of people that can be trusted. Meth does something similar.
post #57 of 269
Dean's got plenty of time left to:

1. Build himself up as the "outsider"
2. Land more "important" endorsements
3. Develop a significant lead from the other candidates
4. Make some miscues, project a confusing message
5. Attract the laser-scopic attention of the world media
6. Have a couple of skeletons dance out of his closet
7. Face unknown world events he has no control over
8. Begin to look less messianic and more like the politician he is
9. Begin to lose steam just in time for November


But that's just my crystal ball talking...


I don't like snorting coke, the carbonation burns my sinuses. Put mine in a glass if you please. Diet Caffeine-Free if you please.
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post #58 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
What's wrong with snorting coke?

to warn you ... : if you use coke, you COULD end like bush. that's of course the worst case scenario ..
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post #59 of 269
The sealed records issue....

As mentioned, most governors seal them at the end of their service. Last Sunday, Dean said on Fox that he will let a judge decide what records to keep sealed and what to unseal.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,105081,00.html

Quote:
WALLACE: Let's move on to this question of giving information out. Why have you sealed, for 10 years, about half of your records as governor of Vermont?

DEAN: Well, we gave 60 percent of them out to the public, which is fine. Vermont, like many other states, has a doctrine of protecting people who advise you for a period of time. We took advantage of that doctrine because that's the law, that's the way it's been done.

And, you know, there is not much interesting stuff except for advice that people gave me, which they thought was going to be confidential, and probably some private papers. What we're trying to do is figure out how to get a third party to review those records so that we can make some of those records public.

WALLACE: I want to take you through this because -- and I know that you're somewhat frustrated that people keep asking about it. But just as you talked about President Bush, people are concerned when public officials decide not to make records public.

In January, you gave Vermont Public Radio a very different reason. Here is what you said: "There are future political considerations. We didn't want anything embarrassing appearing in the papers at a critical time in any future endeavors."

Governor, was it politics?

DEAN: If you actually listen to the tape, which CNN played this week, you will find that I was laughing about that and teasing the press about it.

No, it's not politics. Every governor has done this. Some governors have sealed their records for their lifetime. Some governors take the records with them, they're not the property of the...

WALLACE: But, in fact, the previous governors of Vermont had only sealed them for six years. You wanted to do it for 24, and they finally made an agreement on 10.

DEAN: That really is more of a reflection of the negotiating ferocity of my legal counsel.

Look, if the issue were -- if tomorrow this issue would disappear -- look, this is to our advantage to get this off the political screen. We do keep getting asked about it all the time. If we could say, hey, look, we'll be happy to settle for six years -- first of all, I am not sure we have the power to do that, but if we did, this issue would not go away.

WALLACE: Well, why not just open them up, Governor? I can't believe that anybody in Vermont is going to prevent you. Why not just say, they're open, reporters...

DEAN: Well, actually, it's a very complicated legal question. And what we're going to do, I suspect, is let the judge take a look at all these documents. We're being -- there is a lawsuit over this from Judicial Watch. And what we think the best thing to do is to let the judge go through every single document and decide for himself what ought to be revealed and what not to be revealed. And I think that's a fair way to do it.

Clearly our campaign can't review the documents, because nobody would believe that we weren't doing something political. So let an independent third party -- and I think the Judicial Watch suit gives us the opportunity to let a judge go through every single document.

WALLACE: But let's make it clear, Governor, Judicial Watch wants you to open the records. They're not -- is anybody asking you to keep them closed?

DEAN: Well, I think it's very clear that there are some things in there that are really not fair to reveal -- privacy concerns, people writing letters in to me that are private. I mean, everybody admits that if somebody writes a letter to me saying, you know, "Dear Governor, my wife has AIDS" or something like that, that should not be revealed.

Now, apparently some of those kinds of letters were actually in the...

WALLACE: But, Governor, the Boston Herald -- if I may, the Boston Herald this week looked at what is already open, and they found a lot of letters exactly like that that are already open, personal letters about medical conditions.

DEAN: Right.

WALLACE: So it doesn't seem that that's what's being protected here.

DEAN: Well, that is, actually. Those letters shouldn't have been opened, and I think that's a reason that it is a good thing to have a judge go through all that, all those letters. We were sued once before, and the judge did go through all the papers and decide what should go out and what shouldn't. And I think that's a very good process.

So I think we'll -- the attorney general wants to defend the lawsuit. I think we'll defend the lawsuit and let the judge go through every single record and decide what should be public and what shouldn't. I think that's a fair and reasonable way to go through this.

WALLACE: Just a simple question -- I know you pride yourself on straight talk. Will you try to get those records released before the Iowa caucuses?

DEAN: The records will go through the process that I just outlined. The judge will go through every single record.

If we were to try to ram that through and get it out just to get the political writers off our back, that would be incredibly unfair to all the people who may have personal and private information in there.

Let the judge go through it. Let them pick whatever they want, and let it go free. That's what I think the right process is to go.

So we'll go forward. We'll defend the suit. We'll let the judge go through every document, like they did the last time we were sued. And the judge will decide what's fair to the public to let out and what's not fair because it's private information for individuals.

Howard Dean is good not only for America, but for the rest of the world.
post #60 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Heh, well I guess Gore actually took a little longer to dismiss Lieberman than the rest of the Democrats.

heh. well said.




Dean is the most likely candidate other than Clark to beat Bush. Which means he is the only DEMOCRAT who can do it None of the other electable candidates have anything at all exciting to say.

The only thing that can stop Dean now is getting smacked in the next round South Carolina/Arizona/ etc. . . by Clark and Edwards. The rest of the pack are F.I.N.I.S.H.E.D. Then its a game to see who drops out and throws their support to whoever emerges as the anti-Dean (most likely to Clark) versus who drops out and endorses Dean or stays in till the convention. Edwards and Clark will be scrapping like mad over the next month to become THE GUY.

The cool thing is you have to drop out early to have a real impact on enough primary voters. I could see Lieberman doing this and kicking those votes to Clark. That's the biggest shift. When Kerry drops out his slice goes to Dean. If he does it early enough, Dean is over the top. If he waits, there is more time for an opponent to emerge.

Interesting stuff.

I disagree with Gore that a shorter primary is good for the Dems though. I think that the longer it goes on the more free publicity they gather as long as the tone stays civil (keeping the publicity good.)

Peace,

Curufinwe
post #61 of 269
This editorial over at Tompaine nails it...

and it's exactly what I've been saying!

Campaign ClichsÊ

No one pays attention to presidential politics in December; all the voters are out shopping, caroling, and drinking. But come January, the political holiday ends in a hurry. The Iowa caucuses take place on January 24, followed by the New Hampshire primary on February 1, and when those are done we'll all have a much better sense of who's going to be the Democratic nominee and who isn't.

Once the primaries begin, the process rushes along too fast for reasoned judgments. Press perceptions about expectations and results doom campaigns. Yet before a single vote has been counted the press has created stereotypes about the candidates that say more about the media's inability to describe complex characters than they say about the candidates themselves.

First and most ubiquitous is the clich that Howard Dean is an angry radical whose sole message is his opposition to the war in Iraq. Because of this image, the press is quick to jump on Dean whenever he shows signs of anger or disgruntlement.

In fact, Dean was a moderate governor in a liberal state, particularly on fiscal matters. The idea that his opposition to the war makes him a radical is just silly. By any traditional measure, it was the advocates for "preemptive war" who were the radicals. Dean's stand against the war makes him what would traditionally be called a conservative.

Given that Dean is the Democratic front-runner, it's a particularly frustrating stereotype. Given the choice between an angry radical and President Bush, a majority of Americans will choose the latter. It's time for the media to start portraying Dean as the more layered figure that he is.

more...

http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/9545
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post #62 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Heh, well I guess Gore actually took a little longer to dismiss Lieberman than the rest of the Democrats.

so senator lieberman holds off announcing, out of deference to gore and gore does this to him. party elders generally don't endorse candidates, especially this early.

so like me, senator lieberman is probably pissed at gore.

is it possible gore is doing this because president clinton has been not so silently advising wesley clark.
post #63 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
is it possible gore is doing this because president clinton has been not so silently advising wesley clark.

That'll be a good fight for the party...
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #64 of 269
oh yeah, he's pissed gore didn't even tell him.


i also just read senator paul simon died today. he was a great senator, and a decent man.
post #65 of 269
Lieberman has no chance. So what's the difference?

The party insiders went to back Clark without considering Dean's true grassroots support. Clark will be a good candidate... but you don't START by campaigning for president. Governor or even Senator is a respectable start.

None of the candidates have any of the momentum or support that can compete with Dean. Clark had a bit... but those insiders dismantled it before it could pick up steam.

Gore saw the writing on the wall. The next candidate needs to be a Democrat with true grassroots support... not some hybrid moderate who only disagrees with the whitehouse when it's politcally convenient. A true centrist democrat has lots to disagree with Bush about. And alot to agree with Dean about.
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post #66 of 269
execpt isn't the majority of Dean's grass roots support the "I Hate Bush" camp?
post #67 of 269
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by alcimedes
execpt isn't the majority of Dean's grass roots support the "I Hate Bush" camp?

What's wrong with hating Bush? It's like the guy is untouchable...

Dean's grassroots supporters are predominantly the "I Hate Bush's policies" camp, which is where most of the criticism is centered.
post #68 of 269
there's nothing wrong with hating him, as a part of a whole.

the odd thing is that a lot of folks have i hate bush as their entire mindset.

dunno, just seems like there's a shift between "my opponent is a dumbass" and "i hate this guy, you hate this guy, let's ROLL!"

that's not a platform.
post #69 of 269
Thread Starter 
That's not his platform.
post #70 of 269
As a Democrat, I don't hate Bush. That would be like killing kittens. Bush, on a good day, shows his puppet strings and has an IQ of less than room temperature. Why hate him?

I don't even hate Karl Rove or the fat cat supporters of Bush who will complain about giveaways to poor people and dance all the way to the bank with corporate welfare. I actually think Rove is one of the best political operators I've seen in quite a while. Look at what he had to work with and what he has done. Amazing!

The only thing I feel strongly about are the incredibly wrong-headed policies of the Bush administration who are governing and soon will be campaigning on the backs of dead soldiers.

The Iraq war is a disaster, and the war on terrorism is half-assed. If you are going to ask men and women to die for something, at least make it something worthwhile -- not so your cronies can make money or your stooge, Chalabi, can sit at the throne in Iraq.
post #71 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by alcimedes
there's nothing wrong with hating him, as a part of a whole.

the odd thing is that a lot of folks have i hate bush as their entire mindset.

dunno, just seems like there's a shift between "my opponent is a dumbass" and "i hate this guy, you hate this guy, let's ROLL!"

that's not a platform.

This seems to get said a lot, but I don't see it.

Being against Bush doesn't proceed from some kind of visceral dislike of his "type" to reflexively being against his policies, as much as certain right-wing pundits would love for that to be the case (some kind of post-Clinton projection syndrome?).

It's all about hating the guy's policies and feeling they ultimately reflect on the kind of man he is.

Pretending otherwise is just a ploy to render opposition "irrational".
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post #72 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
That's not his platform.

Bingo.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #73 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Pretending otherwise is just a ploy to render opposition "irrational".

Bingo #2.

Support from Gore & Clinton would make for a powerful ticket.
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post #74 of 269
crap like this.
Quote:
President Bush and his henchmen try to sweep the environment under the rug; I will bring it back into the light.

his "henchmen"? what, like he hired thugs? that's so $$$$ing transparent it hurts.

the problem is that the TeeVee folks then take these 30 seconds spots of Dean on the "attack" and show it over and over again. he'll never be able to beat this image of himself.
post #75 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by alcimedes
the problem is that the TeeVee folks then take these 30 seconds spots of Dean on the "attack" and show it over and over again. he'll never be able to beat this image of himself.

The only people that have an image of Dean like this are people who would never vote for him anyway. Hardly anyone is paying attention right now.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #76 of 269
i've seen Dean featured at least a dozen times on the Daily Show in the last month or so.

they're either making fun of his weird ass smile or his being on the "attack".

trust me, everyone is seeing this.

edit: found one of the skits.

http://ftp.archive.org/movies/lisare...daily-dean.mov
post #77 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by alcimedes
trust me, everyone is seeing this.

Alright, I'll have to trust you. I don't watch TV so I'm kind of out of the loop on the elections right now. From converstions I have though, I don't get the feeling that anyone really cares right now.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #78 of 269
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by alcimedes
i've seen Dean featured at least a dozen times on the Daily Show in the last month or so.

they're either making fun of his weird ass smile or his being on the "attack".

trust me, everyone is seeing this.

edit: found one of the skits.

http://ftp.archive.org/movies/lisare...daily-dean.mov

Everyone is seeing what? Did you watch the $$$$ing skit? It was hilarious!
post #79 of 269
Quote:

That video is the best... Do I even have to spell out why Dean is a screwtard?

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
post #80 of 269
Quote:
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
That video is the best... Do I even have to spell out why Dean is a screwtard?

Fellows

Oh come on. A good comedy writer would be able to do that skit with anyone. I can only imagine how happy the writers for the Daily Show have been since Dean emerged--it gives them something else to talk about besides Bush.

Cheers
Scott
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