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Saddam Has Been Captured - Page 3

post #81 of 270
12/14/03 at 10:16am
Good news....but no time to gloat.
The trial, (if Saddam remains alive for it), will hopefully be open and non-compromised. This can only happen if held in an international court, such as The Hague. It will be most fascinating to see who will be dragged into the proceedings, who was accessory to Saddam's brutality, who supported him, who turned a blind eye to his massacres, who financed him and coddled him, who was allied to him, who did business with him, sold arms to him, and who was associated with him throughout the years when he authorized some of his worst atrocities, back in the late 1970s and throughout the entire 1980s. That famous news clip of Rumsfeld warmly shaking the hand of Saddam in 1984 (?) surrounded by other senior Reagan and Saddam admininistration(s) officials still is recommended viewing.

What this means to the insurgency is an unknown....but it's doubtful that a this disshevelled scarecrow of a man living in a hole in the ground was the force directing the resistance. Saddam, the way it looks probably had little communications with those loyal to him for fear of the coalition zeroing in on him right away.

It's only good that it's over re. Saddam.
One down, TWO to go...then maybe we can dance in the streets.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #82 of 270
12/14/03 at 10:18am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
But if these attacks are not from Sodomites,


This forum has a fascination with anything anal
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post #83 of 270
12/14/03 at 10:20am
PERSPECTIVE: (AP):

"But Sen. Jay Rockefeller, the vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, cautioned the capture likely will not end the insurgent attacks against U.S. troops in Iraq. U.S. officials were wary of retaliatory strikes.

"Given the location and circumstances of his capture, it makes it clear that Saddam was not managing the insurgency, and that he had very little control or influence. That is significant and disturbing because it means the insurgents are not fighting for Saddam, they're fighting against the United States," said Rockefeller, D-W.Va."

Whew. A breath of fresh air and common sense.
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post #84 of 270
12/14/03 at 10:22am
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Now back to topic. This is such a huge thing. My feeling is it will reduce attacks and be a tremendous psychological boost to the Iraqi people and coalition forces.

As for Bush, it won't just be a temporary boost. He will be able to point to this in the election. And imagine if Saddam cries uncle and we find a massive stash of WMD. Bush might as well thumb his nose and say "I told you so". If that happens, the election is 100% OVER. I'm not saying it will...but it might.


Sorry to rain on your parade but the fact of the matter is the Iraqi's don't like us either. The last few months have proved that. As far as the election being over.........there are still a few months until the election and lets see how things look after all those xmas and rebuilding our weapons after the war jobs are gone. SDW they aren't going to find the WOMD. That's a fantasy of yours. Once again even if these did exist he wouldn't have had any way to deploy them. Not in a way that would consitute an immenent threat to the US. It's too bad they couldn't capture someone who mattered like Osama........
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #85 of 270
12/14/03 at 10:38am
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
I'm sorry if that rolleyes hurt your feewings. You made a stupid post, and deserved it. Just consider it tough love. It hurt me more than it hurt you.

Do you really not see how crass it is to talk about how this affects Bush in his domestic political situation, hours after this happens?

He was responding to filmmaker2002's (who is hardly a fan of GWB) post.
"Countless mothers will light candles and celebrate the tyrant's capture - mothers in all the cities of Iraq, in all the villages of Iran, in all the streets and quarters of Kuwait, everywhere the...
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"Countless mothers will light candles and celebrate the tyrant's capture - mothers in all the cities of Iraq, in all the villages of Iran, in all the streets and quarters of Kuwait, everywhere the...
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post #86 of 270
12/14/03 at 10:38am
Quote:
Originally posted by murbot
So when do they kill him?

If they don't give him a fair trial, I'll go bullshit.

But if they "shoot first, ask questions later", Bush will look even worse than before.
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post #87 of 270
12/14/03 at 10:39am
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
...


If he has committed war crimes, then that's something the Hague should handle. It would also be a great gesture from the Bush administration which has unilaterally pursued its foreign policy goals to give up Saddam to international authorities.

The boner you have to the Hague is a little disturbing. Most of Saddam's worst crimes fall outside the definition of "war crime". So fsck the Hague. They've already botched Milosevic's trial.
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post #88 of 270
12/14/03 at 10:42am
Quote:
Originally posted by Smircle

This forum has a fascination with anything anal

Stop being such an asshole.
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post #89 of 270
12/14/03 at 10:43am
Doh!
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post #90 of 270
12/14/03 at 10:46am
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
The boner you have to the Hague is a little disturbing. Most of Saddam's worst crimes fall outside the definition of "war crime". So fsck the Hague. They've already botched Milosevic's trial.

You obviously have no perspective on humanity.
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post #91 of 270
12/14/03 at 10:55am
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
The boner you have to the Hague is a little disturbing.

Don't be preposterous. He hasn't shown any 'boner' for The Hague. Clearly he's unsure if Saddam can be tried for war crimes and clearly his motivation for encouraging a trial by The Hague isn't because of any love of The Hague. You're just being a dick about this.

Shawn's correct. It would be a great gesture if the stars align. Only a troll like you would complain when Shawn supports an act that would help Bush.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #92 of 270
12/14/03 at 11:49am
Technically a trial will be better at the La Hague. Most lawyers are for this suggestion. However this tribunal is not recocnize by US , so it won't happen.

But the important point, is the Iraqi people, from what i see on TV, heard on radio, they want to have a trial in Iraq, led by Iraqi people. Iraq people have been humiliated, both by Saddam, and for being occupied (it's paradoxal but that's the way many of them feel) : give them sovereignity for that one, give them a chance to make a funeral of this silly times, a sort of therapy of this dark moment of their history.

Saddam killed almost 4,5 millons of people. He is at the level of Staline (and he was a great fan of Staline IMO). I heard an interview of an Iraqi women living in GB, she said that Saddam made killed 40 members of her family. I have seen again, the deaths of gazed people : mostly kids and women, i see scenes of cutting hands or decapiting heads with swords.

This is the chance to fix problems in Iraq, US has to change his politic, and Europe has to help the Iraqi people. Forget the past (history cannot be changed), and improve the future of the Iraqi people and more generally the whole aera.
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post #93 of 270
12/14/03 at 11:50am
$$$$ war crimes. Saddam's done enough regular old inter-Iraq crimes to hang him high. Leave to the people he hurt most.
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post #94 of 270
12/14/03 at 12:02pm
That's great! news. Let justice be served by the people of Iraq. And I was thinking the same thing Rockefeller is saying. Saddam, from hiding hole to hiding hole(moving every 4 hours or so) could not be masterminding all those attacks IMO.
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post #95 of 270
12/14/03 at 12:02pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
In egyptia for example the public opinion want a trial in Iraq ruled by Iraqi people.
Saddam have never done anything against me. At the contrary he have done several crimes among his population. And his population have the right to have a trial, where victims or their family could speak.

It will be a form of therapy for Iraqi people

Try Saddam in an International Court (International Herald-Tribune Editorial)

Two Options:
  • Fully international trial
  • Internationally-run trial
Both would "advanced the rule of law in Iraq" without "perpetuating a system of arbitrary revenge."
Both would produce "sound prosecutions and fair trials"
Both would be "seen as legitimate" because "personnel would be selected by the United Nations rather than by Washingtons surrogates"
Both would "secure the experienced and fair-minded jurists than a court that must look only to Iraqis" (see elaboration)

An internationally-run trial would "still conduct trials in Baghdad and involve Iraqis as much as possible."
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post #96 of 270
12/14/03 at 12:06pm
Why the Hague? As far as I'm concerned, the Hague gets second billing, the US last. He gets to stand trail by his peers: the Iraqi people. That's what the US advocates in its Constitution, and it's good model, so I can't see why the US would (and as I understand, it hasn't) advocate any other type of trial or tribunal. The Hague could be a bad solution. If recent examples are any indication, it allows itself to used as a soapbox for these creeps.

Really if international laws work anything like the US laws, both an Iraqi trial and an international tribunal can happen just like a person can have both a state and federal criminal trial. Usually, whichever one has the strongest case gets to happen first and so the accused is under that incriminating body's supervision until then too. And obviously, any sentence if not both get served if found guilty. I don't see why it's either-or if it's not double jeopardy -- where each justice body has its own independent set of charges. A good example at the domestic level is the Oklahoma City bombing with Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols. Would international law work much differently?

Of course as Sammi Jo and Shawn pointed out, bad things don't just stop happening because of this. But that's a statement of the obvious. I don't think anyone in here is saying that all the bad news ends now. Really, the whole Saddam thing isn't even "over" until he's tried and sentenced. So every resolution brings its own problems. Again, that's a statement of the obvious though. No reason not to pat some people on the back about this one.
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post #97 of 270
12/14/03 at 12:17pm
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Try Saddam in an International Court (International Herald-Tribune Editorial)

Two Options:
  • Fully international trial
  • Internationally-run trial
Both would "advanced the rule of law in Iraq" without "perpetuating a system of arbitrary revenge."
Both would produce "sound prosecutions and fair trials"
Both would be "seen as legitimate" because "personnel would be selected by the United Nations rather than by Washingtons surrogates"
Both would "secure the experienced and fair-minded jurists than a court that must look only to Iraqis" (see elaboration)

An internationally-run trial would "still conduct trials in Baghdad and involve Iraqis as much as possible."

I am for an Iraqi trial, with the official help of international lawyers. It's important that the trial is ruled by Iraqi people : it's a question of pride for them, and it's important that they recover some pride.
It's technically difficult, but it's necessary for the future of Iraq to suceed this trial.
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post #98 of 270
12/14/03 at 12:20pm
Thread Starter 
Forget The Hague.
Not because it is a bad thing, but because trying (and finally convicting) him there would be a de-facto recognition of The Hague as a valid and internationally approved body of justice. Of course, this would run counter to the policial jihad of the Bush administration, and we all know how much they value any legal principle they cannot fully control.
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post #99 of 270
12/14/03 at 12:20pm
Thanks be to god, now hurry and bring our troops home.
_ _____________________ _
1ghz Powerbook SuperDrive yippeeee!!!!
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_ _____________________ _
1ghz Powerbook SuperDrive yippeeee!!!!
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post #100 of 270
12/14/03 at 12:26pm
I just turned on the news and caught on. UNF*CKING BELIEVABLE!!! I think this is a Christmas present the entire world can appreciate. Peace to us all...
Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
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Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
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post #101 of 270
12/14/03 at 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally posted by kraig911
Thanks be to god, now hurry and bring our troops home.

I don't know if you where serious with this one, but the return of US troops is not for tomorrow.
Attacks will not cease now, according to everyone, US admin first. Iraq need the presence of the coalition for some more time. The shorter will be the better, but it must be as long as necessary.
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post #102 of 270
12/14/03 at 12:35pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
I am for an Iraqi trial, with the official help of international lawyers. It's important that the trial is ruled by Iraqi people : it's a question of pride for them, and it's important that they recover some pride.
It's technically difficult, but it's necessary for the future of Iraq to suceed this trial.

Pride: "We executed Saddam!"
Therapy: "Didn't it feel good executing Saddam?"

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post #103 of 270
12/14/03 at 12:37pm
Quote:
Originally posted by kraig911
Thanks be to god, now hurry and bring our troops home.

If this is the sentiment of many Americans, Bush would've been better off if Saddam had never been captured. American troops will not be leaving Iraq any time soon but if the attacks on coalition troops continues and people think that now that Saddam is captured there is no valid reason to remain there, Bush is in big trouble.

Anyway, if the people of Iraq want to try this bugger in their courts and have him suffer a punishment bestowed upon him by the people of Iraq, then so be it. If not, then off to Hague with him. America has no right to try to him in any fashion.
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post #104 of 270
12/14/03 at 12:39pm
actually capturing Saddam will be bringing some troops home. they just got new orders as of last night. this is the only real change in their situation. i'm sure it's related.
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post #105 of 270
12/14/03 at 12:43pm
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Pride: "We executed Saddam!"
Therapy: "Didn't it feel good executing Saddam?"


That's not i said,

Pride : recovering a drop of sovereignity
Therapy : speak of the past, the deaths, pain and suffering. It's the place where victims or their family told their story. Talking of Saddam's crime is important.

Sincerly i was expecting more than :

What do you suggest : Iraqi people only seek revenge, they are baby that can rule themselves ? let's doing the job at their place ...

Revenge is not therapy, it only last a very short moment. People want the official recocnition of Saddam's crime.
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post #106 of 270
12/14/03 at 12:52pm
Quote:
Originally posted by filmmaker2002
Death is too good for this man. They should torture him with the means he used to torture thousands...hell...even make up a few techniques. Pull out his finger nails one by one, pour scalding acid on his skin to melt it off...stuff like that. He deserves no less, and neither does bin Laden when we get him.


I agree.

There's a ALOT of intelligence info stored in that man. It should be useful to keep him alive for a long time. Connections to Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Russia, France, Germany, etc..

I'd also like a follow up on the stashed WoMD and the regimes now hiding them.
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post #107 of 270
12/14/03 at 12:58pm
Quote:
Originally posted by majorspunk
I agree.

There's a ALOT of intelligence info stored in that man. It should be useful to keep him alive for a long time. Connections to Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Russia, France, Germany, etc..

I'd also like a follow up on the stashed WoMD and the regimes now hiding them.

I guess that with proper torture he could connect even with my grand mother ...
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post #108 of 270
12/14/03 at 12:58pm
Ever notice that when things go good for the Republicans it takes no time at all for them to thumb their nose at the Dems and go "neener neener".

BUT, if a Democratic points out a failing we're "rooting" for American soldier's deaths, we're "rooting" for the economy to fail, etc.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #109 of 270
12/14/03 at 1:01pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
I guess that with proper torture he could connect even with my grand mother ...


Now wouldn't that be interesting. I always suspected youz.
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post #110 of 270
12/14/03 at 1:02pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
Technically a trial will be better at the La Hague. Most lawyers are for this suggestion. However this tribunal is not recocnize by US , so it won't happen.

But the important point, is the Iraqi people, from what i see on TV, heard on radio, they want to have a trial in Iraq, led by Iraqi people. Iraq people have been humiliated, both by Saddam, and for being occupied (it's paradoxal but that's the way many of them feel) : give them sovereignity for that one, give them a chance to make a funeral of this silly times, a sort of therapy of this dark moment of their history.

Saddam killed almost 4,5 millons of people. He is at the level of Staline (and he was a great fan of Staline IMO). I heard an interview of an Iraqi women living in GB, she said that Saddam made killed 40 members of her family. I have seen again, the deaths of gazed people : mostly kids and women, i see scenes of cutting hands or decapiting heads with swords.

This is the chance to fix problems in Iraq, US has to change his politic, and Europe has to help the Iraqi people. Forget the past (history cannot be changed), and improve the future of the Iraqi people and more generally the whole aera.

Very wise and true. This is about the Iraqi people.

Great post Powerdoc, I agree completely.

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #111 of 270
12/14/03 at 1:02pm
Quote:
Originally posted by majorspunk
Now wouldn't that be interesting. I always suspected youz.

I'll just add that she died ten years ago ...
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post #112 of 270
12/14/03 at 1:04pm
Quote:
Originally posted by majorspunk
I always suspected youz.
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post #113 of 270
12/14/03 at 1:06pm
Quote:
Originally posted by majorspunk

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post #114 of 270
12/14/03 at 1:16pm
Quote:
Originally posted by majorspunk
I agree.

There's a ALOT of intelligence info stored in that man. It should be useful to keep him alive for a long time. Connections to Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Russia, France, Germany, etc..

I'd also like a follow up on the stashed WoMD and the regimes now hiding them.

No there isn't. The guy has not been in touch with anything in the country for years. It's been a long time since he has lived in reality.

Everyone with any real idea of WMD programs has already been captured.

Don't pretend this is something it is not.
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post #115 of 270
12/14/03 at 1:19pm
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
No there isn't. The guy has not been in touch with anything in the country for years. It's been a long time since he has lived in reality.

Everyone with any real idea of WMD programs has already been captured.

Don't pretend this is something it is not.


Your posts just get better and better. Keep it up.
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post #116 of 270
12/14/03 at 1:20pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
That's not i said,

Pride : recovering a drop of sovereignity
Therapy : speak of the past, the deaths, pain and suffering. It's the place where victims or their family told their story. Talking of Saddam's crime is important.

Sincerly i was expecting more than :

What do you suggest : Iraqi people only seek revenge, they are baby that can rule themselves ? let's doing the job at their place ...

Revenge is not therapy, it only last a very short moment. People want the official recocnition of Saddam's crime.

AND the best way to do that is through either a fully international trial or an internationally-led trial: (from the IHT Editorial)

Quote:
"As we know from Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia, prosecutions of genocide or crimes against humanity can be enormously complex, demanding jurists of exceptional skill and sophistication. They require amassing volumes of official documents, collecting sensitive forensic evidence from mass graves, presenting hundreds of witnesses from among victims and accomplices, and paying scrupulous attention to the requirements of due process. To avoid being perceived as show trials or victors justice, they call for highly experienced jurists of unquestioned integrity.

Saddams brutal and arbitrary justice system can hardly be expected to have produced such jurists. Prosecutions were typically based on confessions, often induced by torture. Serious criminal investigations, let alone complex trials, were virtually unheard of. The Iraqi Governing Council hopes to solve this problem by looking to Iraqi exiles as well as Iraqis from communities historically repressed by the Baath Party who remained in the country. But even among these it will be difficult to find jurists with the right combination of skills and emotional distance from the former dictatorship to produce trials that are fair and seen as fair.

An internationally led tribunal would be a far better option, whether a fully international tribunal such as the ones established for Rwanda and former Yugoslavia or, more likely, an internationally run tribunal with significant domestic participation, such as the special court set up for Sierra Leone. Because its personnel would be selected by the United Nations rather than by Washingtons surrogates, an internationally led tribunal is more likely to be seen as legitimate. And because it can draw from a global pool of talent, it would be better able to secure the experienced and fair-minded jurists than a court that must look only to Iraqis. An internationally led tribunal could still conduct trials in Baghdad and involve Iraqis as much as possible, but it would be run by international jurists with proven records of overseeing complex prosecutions and scrupulously respecting international fair-trial standards.
"

I mean your comments are obviously superficial.

"Therapy?" "Pride?" I'm talking about reality here. Both the fairness of the trial and advancing the rule of law in Iraq should take precedent over any other reasons.
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post #117 of 270
12/14/03 at 1:22pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by majorspunk
There's a ALOT of intelligence info stored in that man. It should be useful to keep him alive for a long time. Connections to Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Russia, France, Germany, etc..


Or even his connections to this guy and his government:
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post #118 of 270
12/14/03 at 1:22pm
I'm feeling (perhaps wrongly and irrationally) very optimistic about this. It would absolutely great if the focus on saddam helps Iraq become a normal country.
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post #119 of 270
12/14/03 at 1:23pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
Ever notice that when things go good for the Republicans it takes no time at all for them to thumb their nose at the Dems and go "neener neener".

BUT, if a Democratic points out a failing we're "rooting" for American soldier's deaths, we're "rooting" for the economy to fail, etc.

Of course. That's because those people that do what you're saying are hypocritical morons.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #120 of 270
12/14/03 at 1:24pm
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Pride: "We executed Saddam!"
Therapy: "Didn't it feel good executing Saddam?"


Pride: "We captured Saddam!"
Therapy: "Didn't it feel good trying him in the Hague?"

"Countless mothers will light candles and celebrate the tyrant's capture - mothers in all the cities of Iraq, in all the villages of Iran, in all the streets and quarters of Kuwait, everywhere the...
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"Countless mothers will light candles and celebrate the tyrant's capture - mothers in all the cities of Iraq, in all the villages of Iran, in all the streets and quarters of Kuwait, everywhere the...
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