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OmniWeb 5... any word? - Page 2

post #41 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Cool! Thanks Defiant. I knew they had bundles but I didn't know about what products.

Can't wait to see what they've done with Outliner 3.

where'd you see anything about outliner 3? my wife owns outliner 2, so i am interested as well.
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
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Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

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When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
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post #42 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by rok
where'd you see anything about outliner 3? my wife owns outliner 2, so i am interested as well.

I read a post of Mike's on MacNN from the link that started this thread...
he said something about good things comenig from OO3 and OW5 mostly because thats what he has been spending most of his time on



about the bundle there is educational pricing for that as well... what I am interested in however is an UPGRADE (edu) bundle. I purchased the bundle way back in MWNY02 and since everything has been updated since then (or is about to be updated... can we have a sneak at OO3?!? PLS? ) I should be able to get upgrade pricing... $80 is the current EDU price... shave $15 and I will be THRILLED! But I am willing to pay even more if the bundle inclueds Graffle Pro!!!

DROOL

I can't wait!!!!
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post #43 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by Paul
about the bundle there is educational pricing for that as well... what I am interested in however is an UPGRADE (edu) bundle.

obviously, i can't speak on behalf of the omni guys, but companies rarely offer educational upgrade pricing, simply because they figure you're already saving so much off the retail.

plus, companies like adobe will make their commercial upgrades less than the overall educational prices, and no educational upgrades to convince people to eventually cross-over and take advantage of the commercial upgrade path.

like i said, i can't speak for them, but it doesn't seem like a good business model for them to pursue.
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
Reply
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
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post #44 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by rok
like i said, i can't speak for them, but it doesn't seem like a good business model for them to pursue.

they already have edu upgrade pricing

$20 for OG3 as opposed to $30 retail
$30 for OG3p $50 retail

so all I'm waiting for is the "upgrade bundle" when information about OO3 comes above water... (damn, Omni is worse then apple when it comes to future products!)
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People really have got to stop thinking there is only one operating system, one economic system, one religion, and one...
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post #45 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by Paul
they already have edu upgrade pricing

$20 for OG3 as opposed to $30 retail
$30 for OG3p $50 retail

so all I'm waiting for is the "upgrade bundle" when information about OO3 comes above water... (damn, Omni is worse then apple when it comes to future products!)

well, whaddya know! should've known omni would do things better than the corporate folks.
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
Reply
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
Reply
post #46 of 70
Okay, I still think the thumbnails are too much space used. However, the 'list view' option makes up for it. I'll probably play with thumbnail view a few times for fun, then switch to list view for my everyday use.

However, it's all the other features that will get me to shell out $30 when this browser shows up. Workspaces, site preferences, searches, RSS/XML viewing... oh yeah.
post #47 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by Kesh
Okay, I still think the thumbnails are too much space used. However, the 'list view' option makes up for it. I'll probably play with thumbnail view a few times for fun, then switch to list view for my everyday use.

I forgot who, but someone from OG said that the thumbnails scale dynamically based on the drawer size, so I think that will make it awesome so on lower-resolutions, you can have a smaller drawer with smaller thumbnails.
post #48 of 70
Quote:
where'd you see anything about outliner 3? my wife owns outliner 2, so i am interested as well.

Rok Mike Matas mentioned Outliner 3 directly on his site www.mikematas.com so I know it's coming. I'm looking forward to it.
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post #49 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by 709
I like.

Me too, if it wasnt for my 1024x768 resolution... Takes up too much space... :/
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post #50 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by foad
I forgot who, but someone from OG said that the thumbnails scale dynamically based on the drawer size, so I think that will make it awesome so on lower-resolutions, you can have a smaller drawer with smaller thumbnails.

It doesn't help me much, though. Most of my tabbing is opening 20-30 threads on a webboard. All the thumbnails will look virtually the same, and lower resolution means it's even harder to tell them apart.

For two or three tabs, sure, it's great. But for most of my use, list view will work better. And I want to thank Omni for not just making the 'shiny' feature, but making a practical alternative. Very good job, folks.
post #51 of 70
for what it's worth, i sent a suggestion to them that they'll hopefully implement, because i know apple will -- "scrubbing the tab drawer" just like scrubbing the dock to get larger icons. it could be configured to expand the thumbnails to whatever max size necessary, or if you're in list view, it will show the thumbnails (and full name) one by one as you scrub across the drawer.

you know apple would poop themselves if they saw that.
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
Reply
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
Reply
post #52 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by rok
for what it's worth, i sent a suggestion to them that they'll hopefully implement, because i know apple will -- "scrubbing the tab drawer" just like scrubbing the dock to get larger icons. it could be configured to expand the thumbnails to whatever max size necessary, or if you're in list view, it will show the thumbnails (and full name) one by one as you scrub across the drawer.

you know apple would poop themselves if they saw that.

wouldn't that include dynamically changing the size of the drawer? or would the thumbnails be smaller than the size of the drawer?
post #53 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by Nebagakid
wouldn't that include dynamically changing the size of the drawer? or would the thumbnails be smaller than the size of the drawer?

well, in my mind's eye, it would work like the dock in that the "dock" (the containing rectangle of the drawer) would stay the same size, but as the thumbnails expanded, they simply "popped forward" as you scrubbed back and forth. there's probably a limitation or two i'm not thinking of, but, seriously, it's about time someone started stealing features BACK from apple and using them to sell products, right?
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
Reply
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
Reply
post #54 of 70
Wow! They look pretty much like my suggestion to them that I posted on macnn with mockups over a year ago:

Here was the thread:

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread....50&pagenumber=3

And here is my screen mockup from back then:

http://homepage.mac.com/curmi/.Pictures/tabbed.jpg

Happy that they went with the idea.
post #55 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by curmi
Wow! They look pretty much like my suggestion to them that I posted on macnn with mockups over a year ago:

Here was the thread:

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread....50&pagenumber=3

And here is my screen mockup from back then:

http://homepage.mac.com/curmi/.Pictures/tabbed.jpg

Happy that they went with the idea.

that image reminded me of the crush i had on janie porsche.
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
Reply
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
Reply
post #56 of 70
You know what's funny? I made this post so long ago, which links to this mock-up. It was of course designed to overcome the major list of shortcomings in browser tabs as they are usually implemented.

Everybody scoffed at it then, and now it's apparently the best thing ever?

Thumbnail tabs suck less than normal browser tabs, but they still suck.
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post #57 of 70
to be previewed at MWSF

g
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it's all fun till somebody loses an eye
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post #58 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by Eugene
You know what's funny? I made this post so long ago, which links to this mock-up. It was of course designed to overcome the major list of shortcomings in browser tabs as they are usually implemented.

Everybody scoffed at it then, and now it's apparently the best thing ever?

Thumbnail tabs suck less than normal browser tabs, but they still suck.

maybe the idea of tabbed browsing sucks all together and OmniWeb 5's new Workspace feature will brighten our days and is what you are looking for in multiple page browsing.
post #59 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by Nebagakid
maybe the idea of tabbed browsing sucks all together and OmniWeb 5's new Workspace feature will brighten our days and is what you are looking for in multiple page browsing.

I guess it depends on how these workspaces are implemented. The wording on the preview page gives me the impression that these workspaces are just very detailed saved settings, and when you go from one workspace to another, you are actually closing all those windows and opening all new ones instead of merely hiding and revealing them.

^^ This would be preferable in a sense since it's not defining its own new "Hide Window" behavior. It does introduce some nasty side-effects though...like if you're typing a reply on this board, switch workspaces and come back to the reply, will the text still be there? ...

Even better question. Should OS X have a feature to hide individual windows like it can with entire apps? Or is the minimize button enough?
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post #60 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by Eugene
I guess it depends on how these workspaces are implemented. The wording on the preview page gives me the impression that these workspaces are just very detailed saved settings, and when you go from one workspace to another, you are actually closing all those windows and opening all new ones instead of merely hiding and revealing them.

^^ This would be preferable in a sense since it's not defining its own new "Hide Window" behavior. It does introduce some nasty side-effects though...like if you're typing a reply on this board, switch workspaces and come back to the reply, will the text still be there? ...

Even better question. Should OS X have a feature to hide individual windows like it can with entire apps? Or is the minimize button enough?

According the the OmniWeb guys that participated in the chat workspaces will save the text that you were typing into the text field. This is even the case if OW crashes, but the workspace was saved beforehand. Mike Matas was nice enough to create some more movies of OW5 in action so you can get a sense of what usage will be like.
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post #61 of 70
Interesting, that's good, I suppose.

I like the idea though. These really aren't "workspaces" in the common sense, but saved states. Yeah, in the movie you can clearly see that when he transfers one window to another workspace, it isn't just moved, it's closed and reopened/reloaded.

It works out then. If they were done any other way it would get nasty. Imagine what the Dock or Window menu would display if they were merely hidden windows. Would clicking on the selection bring one window or the entire workspace to the front? It would have to be the latter. It would be blurring the line between an individual "Window" and a "Window Group" or sorts.
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post #62 of 70
I am pretty shure it would be bringing the entire workspace to the front.
post #63 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by Eugene
You know what's funny? I made this post so long ago, which links to this mock-up. It was of course designed to overcome the major list of shortcomings in browser tabs as they are usually implemented.

Everybody scoffed at it then, and now it's apparently the best thing ever?

Thumbnail tabs suck less than normal browser tabs, but they still suck.

Yeah, I remember that mockup. Here's what Dave Hyatt had to say about it here:

Quote:
That is why I think ideas like this, although extremely pretty, seem to be targeting an audience that IMO doesn't exist. A power user doesn't want thumbnails, since they wouldn't be easily distinguishable anyway once you opened several tabs, the overflow mechanism for such a system would be clumsy (or would use too much space, scrollbar anyone?), and you lose too much horizontal real estate. Sure, it's got a neat initial "whizzy" factor to it, but it's simply not as usable or as scalable as the classic tab strip model.

It will be interesting to see what his comments are of OmniWeb 5 and how the general public will like its interface.
post #64 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by Eugene
You know what's funny? I made this post so long ago, which links to this mock-up. It was of course designed to overcome the major list of shortcomings in browser tabs as they are usually implemented.

Everybody scoffed at it then, and now it's apparently the best thing ever?

Thumbnail tabs suck less than normal browser tabs, but they still suck.

for the record, aside from the "way too much metal" of those mockups, i liked the idea fromt he get-go. i like the way that hyatte considers scroll-bars to be such an awful idea, when the ">>" right side overflow button ain't all that great as a solution, either. exposé is still the only technique i have seen in a long time that solves the problem of when there's just too much crap to give everything its due attention.

ah, whatever. i say apple should just make the omni guys rich, and buy 'em out, and offer them fat contracts to put features and user interface on hyatte's work.
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
Reply
When you're lovers in a dangerous time,
You're made to feel as if your love's a crime.
Nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight.
Gotta kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight.

-...
Reply
post #65 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by Nebagakid
I am pretty shure it would be bringing the entire workspace to the front.

But that's not what I asked it to do.

Over-all, it's good to see the OmniGroup showing some UI common sense unlink Apple lately.
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post #66 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by eVo
Yeah, I remember that mockup. Here's what Dave Hyatt had to say about it here:

Programmers almost never make good interface designers. Their brains are just wired differently. He neglects all the problems with tabs in the first place. The Omni and "Safari MP" solution is just a band-aid.

I also wonder why Hyatt considers tabs a power user's interface.

-We organize lists vertically, so should we with tabbed windows.
-OmniWeb tabs better capture the essence of a webpage. A webpage can be an advanced application. It is not merely a page. It's better to portray it as a clearly draggable/repositionable object, with a thumbnail rather than a simple line of text. Hopefully Cmd-W and other commands are intact and not used to close tabs.
-Workspaces may be the best innovation at all. It preserves the sanctity of the rest of the UI if it works the way I think it does. Snapshots/saved-states. When you switch workspaces you are really closing the windows behind you and opening new ones. The OmniGroup is working with the UI instead of working *against* it.
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post #67 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by eVo
It will be interesting to see what his comments are of OmniWeb 5 and how the general public will like its interface.

Dave was wrong, and Omniweb 5.0 will prove it. He/Apple had the chance to do something that was both functionally more powerful than tabs, and showed off some of the Quartz power of OS X. Rather than "Think Different" it was imitation rather than innovation...
post #68 of 70
Quote:
Originally posted by curmi
Dave was wrong, and Omniweb 5.0 will prove it. He/Apple had the chance to do something that was both functionally more powerful than tabs, and showed off some of the Quartz power of OS X. Rather than "Think Different" it was imitation rather than innovation...

Well, let's just wait and see what Safari 2 looks like at WWDC where they also announce an update to the WebCore for all those developers
post #69 of 70
I'm surprised that there isn't more complaining from power web surfers.

This is a wonderful implementation of a terrible UI. Knowing how Apple has treated other amazing innovations to come out of third party dev groups, Safari 2 will have some mediocre copy of OW5's tab implementation and workspace (see Sherlock 3).

I think I am most excited about OW5's site preferences. It is so much more powerful than Crapzilla's ability to remember certain aspects for individual sites. All those banking ect sites that refuse you because your browser identifies itself as Mac can now be spoofed without having to lower Mac hits to other sites. I am also intrigued by how their "auto search" feature works. From the videos it would appear that you can click in a search field and that site gets added to the search field with the proper syntax auto-magically added.

February can't come soon enough.
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post #70 of 70
Of course Omni do find themselves in a similar situation to Netscape, when Microsoft released IE. It looks like Omniweb 5.0 is going to be great, but people get IE and Safari for free, and like Windows, they may consider them "good enough".

However, the Mac world is better known for paying for shareware than the Windows world, so that may make the difference. Having the world's most advanced browser on our platform is also great for showing up Windows users.
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