Apple must truly revolutionize otherwise fade...

OS X is the most advanced OS ever made. I'm addicted to it like crack, and I will whore myself out to buy Apple hardware, so I can run X.

Give her one day with X, and she'll never buy a PC again.

[quote]Originally posted by satchmo:
<strong>Essentially, both platforms are user friendly, and run all the major software. Games are more prevalent on PC's but there are enough for the MacOS. One difference obviously is in style and industrial design (however, she didn't care for the aesthetics debate).</strong><hr></blockquote>

Elegance and ease of use are both greatly on the Macs side.

<strong>Something truly "revolutionary" that will elevate Apple to be more than just an alternative operating system. I'm not sure what this could be but perhaps some cool wireless device that changes computing and the way you do things.</strong>

As for something to completely revolutionize everything to the point of greatly expanding Apple's user base overnight, its just not going to happen. This is not to say Apple wont have some great products, but they will be refinements on markets and products which already exist.

At this point, apple's goal shouldn't be to revolutionize, but to gain more market share. I think we already know that they have revolutionized far enough.

To us, they "revolutionize" every macworld. I personally think they need to boost up the marketing and advertisement, and revolutionize that. Without that, a company is nothing, and that what apple is currently looking at without hardcore advertisement.

Satchmo,
You are simply making the age old mistake of trying to convince someone who doesn't value the "Extras" that she does. To some people they are happy with a utilitarian vehicle that gets them from point A-B..while other perfer to ride in Style. I was in Sale for 10 years and there is a truth to the 4 different personality types that many Salespeople look for. Your friend is someone who looks for the "Value" quotient. That doesn't make her bad nor does it mean that Apple will fade into the sunset.. The computer industry will NEVER have a company with an insurmountable technical lead..society moves forward at the same pace and every Empire eventually falls. With that in mind I have my friends that value attributes that Macs have(great fit and finish, attention to detail) and I have friends that like the lowest common denominator in everything. I realize this and change my recommendations to them accordingly.

Who the hell cares about Marketshare?

Do you?

I don't.

Marketshare is pisspoor metric that is used only because it is marginally better than anything else--it doesn't change the fact that it is almost competely uninformative.

Let me ask you a question: why do you want Apple to increase marketshare?

I say keep Apple hungry, so they keep on refining OSX and they keep hitting homeruns in the hardware game. In the meantime, I'll just keep shelling out the dough for teh goods, and consider it a price-of-living expense.

[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: mslee ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by corvette:
<strong>At this point, apple's goal shouldn't be to revolutionize, but to gain more market share. I think we already know that they have revolutionized far enough.... I personally think they need to boost up the marketing and advertisement, and revolutionize that. Without that, a company is nothing, and that what apple is currently looking at without hardcore advertisement.</strong><hr></blockquote>

AMEN! The single greatest way to sell a product is to get the word out. Apple has fundamentally NOT done this over its entire existance.

Oh, sure, they've had commercials with spinning iMacs and a guy dancing around his apartment, but there haven't been enough of them. Whenever I see an Apple ad, I get excited, because I rarely see them on TV -- that's a VERY BAD THING.

Apple's commercials should be like any other company's commercials: They come on, and you think to yourself, "oh, another Apple commercial again."

Writing that just now, I can say that I felt that way about one commercial they had: the kid going into the music hall and talking to all the musicians about what music mix he wanted. It was an iTunes commercial, and done fairly well. That leads me to my next point:

Apple needs more saturation of their "human experience" ads. I've really enjoyed the guy-with-his-iBook-on-the-plane ad, the couple-eloping-on-the-beach ad, and even the guy-dancing-in-his-apartment-ad. But Apple needs to saturate the market with these spots. Let the public KNOW what they're missing by not having a Mac. Let the public KNOW that there's so much more to a Mac than education and graphics.

And advertise OS X more! Gawd dang, Apple! What's wrong with you? You have this F*ing awesome OS and you can't even advertise for it? At least have some sort of TV ad where a gal uses it to get some really cool thing thing done really fast -- faster than XP ever could, all the while promoting its stability.

If you advertise it, people will come.

[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: CosmoNut ]</p>

I think a lot depends on the user.

For example, after using OS X I went to take a look at XP since they had put it on display at CDW...to me it looked like a glossed over version of 98. The interface was cluttered, gaudy (WAY more so than Aqua, and in a totally different way) and basically non-intuitive from a visual standpoint. From that perspective I don't think they've ever improved over the basic GUI that NT 4 had (and that was nothing special, but at least more functional / less cluttered).

What I'm getting at is, people who are design-savvy, who value elegantly designed products - I have a hard time believing they wouldn't choose a Mac every time, unless there was some piece of software they needed which wasn't being ported.

Then there are those like my brother who once upon a time preferred Macs in a big way because they were easier to use (he's an engineer)..but when Apple went down hill a few years back (around the time of OS 8 I think) his company switched. He wasn't perturbed in the least though. He doesn't care about the clarity or placement of GUI icons, or how badly designed a dialog is...he just wants to use his computer as little as possible to do spreadsheets, mechanical drawings, etc...and be done with it. He doesn't like sitting in front of computers in general so for him there is no allegiance. Only what will get the job done quickest. Translating files from Mac to PC is one example of how NOT to do that. So far the only apps I know of that require no translation between platforms are Office 98 and higher, graphics files of various types and maybe RTFs. Had Office 98 come out a year sooner, my brother's company might never have switched because Office file translations was one of the big headaches they had on a daily basis.

I'm guessing all of those CAD programs and such probably still require some kind of translation between the Mac OS versions and the PC versions as well. When the day comes that no translations would be necessary for my brother and his peers to send files to clients and receive them, they would probably switch back to Mac OS if the cost were not prohibitive - because it once again would be easier to use for their purposes.

Anyway, I think the larger point is, Apple is doing a fairly decent job of innovating as far as the OS is concerned. I think OS X has put some really elegant concepts to bear and that it will only get better with time and refinement. But people's motivations is what will decide whether they go Mac or not, not some abstract theory or brochure that says "Macs are the most innovative." Probably didn't explain that well enough but hopefully you get the idea.

Jesus Christ people! Steve Jobs said in a time interview that the PC would go the way of the dodo byrd if nothing happened that was revolutionary soon. Apple may not be able to bring out a "thing" that expands their user base overnight but neither can anyone else. IMHO Apple is doing the best job of all PC vendors in making the user experience the most refined, even if it is a small refinement it is still the little things that always make the difference and when the little things add up to make a big difference, .

[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: Macintosh ]

[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: Macintosh ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by Macintosh:
<strong>IMHO Apple is doing the best job of all PC vendors in making the user experience the most refined, even if it is a small refinement it is still the little things that always make the difference and when the little things add up to make a big difference, .
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree Macintosh, but as I mentioned in my previous post...

No one knows about it because they're not getting the word out.

[quote]Originally posted by mslee:
<strong>Who the hell cares about Marketshare?

Do you?

I don't.

Marketshare is pisspoor metric that is used only because it is marginally better than anything else--it doesn't change the fact that it is almost competely uninformative.

Let me ask you a question: why do you want Apple to increase marketshare?

I say keep Apple hungry, so they keep on refining OSX and they keep hitting homeruns in the hardware game. In the meantime, I'll just keep shelling out the dough for teh goods, and consider it a price-of-living expense.

[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: mslee ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Why do I want to have more marketshare? I'll tell you why.

1) More software. Everyone likes software. The mac is missing some of those little but important software that would make my life easier. Look at DivX, look at AIM, look at the lack of p2p clients such as Morpheus Kazaa. Some people might use the G word (games).

2) Pride. Wouldn't it be nice if people finally respected macs as computers?

3) Aren't you sick of microsoft being loaded on every computer you come across that isn't yours?

[quote]
Who the hell cares about Marketshare?

Do you? I don't.

Let me ask you a question: why do you want Apple to increase marketshare?

I say keep Apple hungry, so they keep on refining OSX and they keep hitting homeruns in the hardware game. In the meantime, I'll just keep shelling out the dough for teh goods, and consider it a price-of-living expense.
<hr></blockquote>


I hear ya!

I used to really worry about marketshare.

Then I realized... As long as marketshare stays relatively low, my business(es) and I have a very significant competitive advantage over our Wintel-using competition. Think of all their wasted productivity!

I think once you're out of school in the business world and care less about what your friends use, people "making fun of you" for using a Mac, etc. etc., that marketshare will matter less and less to you also.

Some of you want Apple to make ultra cheap and fast boxes? Well the fact is THEY CAN'T! They can't do that AND at the same time build an OS as well a high-end sexy boxes we all know love and want.

Apple has one of (if not the) biggest profit margins in the business... Where exactly do you think that money goes?! It goes to offset the stuff that makes Apple great... Sexy machines, OS X, iTunes, iDVD, QuickTime, etc.

Wanna give up what makes Apple great.. and have them build beige plastic boxes? Well fine but don't forget what you are giving up.

Oh you WANT the sexy looking machines? Well we have to hire the best hardware designers in the biz (you think Dell is?). Oh you WANT OS X (you think it's gonna write itself? here goes another non-Dell cost) on and you don't care about iTunes (saved a few bucks - by the Mac experience suffered for it) keep iDVD and iMovie okay but we gotta pay for it (another non-Dell cost)...

Fact is... Apple can't be DELL and it never could be... Since they are too busy being Apple.

Dave

Corvette: thanks for the swift response

[quote]Why do I want to have more marketshare? I'll tell you why.

1) More software. Everyone likes software. The mac is missing some of those little but important software that would make my life easier. Look at <hr></blockquote>
[quote]DivX,<hr></blockquote>
Two rebuttals to this: one, don't steal IP (in this case, movies). You shouldn't lament the absence of a device that aids crime (I'm just joking). Two, if you're using video for valid purposes (which was probably what you were talking about), fear not, QT6 will be here real soon (with MPEG-4 support, tailor made for what you need) and the 3ivx (psuedo)standard is here for the mac!
[quote]look at AIM<hr></blockquote>
There really is an enormous amount of chat programs out there...check out fire, BitchX...just got to <a href="http://www.versiontracker.com" target="_blank">www.versiontracker.com</a> and pick your flavor!
[quote]look at the lack of p2p clients such as Morpheus Kazaa<hr></blockquote>
Morpheus I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, have you seen the shit Morpheus dumps into your registry?! Kazaa...well, I guess we'll have to see how the courts in the Netherlands deal with their intransigence. But for now, when I want to download an artist that has been recommended to me, I just use Limewire. [quote]
Some people might use the G word (games).<hr></blockquote>
Ha! Marketshare won't help here...we need hardware! Besides, for the cost of a top-o-the-line graphics card, one can get an X-Box, PS2, or Gamecube!
[quote]
2) Pride. Wouldn't it be nice if people finally respected macs as computers?
<hr></blockquote>
Thats wierd. The people who piss on my Mac and OS X clearly have no strong grounding in the computer sciences --which makes their ignorance more of comical than offensive.
[quote]
3) Aren't you sick of microsoft being loaded on every computer you come across that isn't yours?<hr></blockquote>

I wouldn't mind at all if MS started getting their shit together and started to put together a mean OS. I think MS needs to ditch legacy and build a new OS from the ground up.

Unlike others, I don't really mind MS. As long as I have OS X, I'll be happy.


But seriously, I think marketshare is an ancillary metric. I understand that Apple wants to increase its marketshare.....and this will come with time. Apple doesn't need to focus on marketshare....it will happen on its own. Just keep up X dev and knocking out the hardware, and the classy users will come over to the Apple camp on its merits alone, not for any clever marketing scheme.

Once we've gotten all the IT and techsupport people addicted to OS X...its only a matter of time before OS X trickles down to Dilbert and the rest of the office drones....
MWAHAHAHAHAHAH!....World domination!

[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: mslee ]</p>

No.

I don't want to be satisfied using third party stuff.

I want high class products from the same companies that provide it to Windows. As mac users, we should not have to waste our time searching for third party sources to get the apps that the original companies should be making.

And have you noticed lately how much limewire sucks?

And don't give me that warez crap about DivX. Are you aware of the VBR Mp3 problem Quicktime has with AVI?

I believe MS has to screw up for people to see Macs as a real alternative. At this point I don't think there's much Apple can do, even if they do put out G5s and cheap LCD iMacs, etc.

My scenario is that MS will start to tick people off enough with .NET and new licensing schemes and copy protection in Windows Media that people will want a more open system, and Apple could provide that.

After their deal runs out, Apple should start running negative ads against MS. Just like in a political campaign. Maybe black and white slo-mo of Bill Gates with crashed Windows systems and error messages that say "you cannot convert this CD into MP3" and "that Java applet will not run on Windows" and "it is the 1st of the month, your credit card has been charged for using Windows."

Just to be a stick-in-the-mud:

By definition, a revolution ends at the same point from which it began.

2) Pride. Wouldn't it be nice if people finally respected macs as computers?

Apple just is not capable of doing better at marketing than they are doing now. They cant use up too many resources on educating the avg. consumer. The Apple marketing goal is that they want people that are considering buying a computer to check out Apple. Apple wants to be recognized as a value choice in the computer business. If everybody was like me then Apple would not need to advertise. The more of "us" they get the better off Apple is.

[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: Macintosh ]</p>

I think USB, Firewire, Pioneer DVD-R, iPod,new iBook or iMovie & Final Cut are enough reasons for buy a Mac.

[quote]Originally posted by mslee:
<strong>Who the hell cares about Marketshare?

Do you?

I don't.

Marketshare is pisspoor metric that is used only because it is marginally better than anything else--it doesn't change the fact that it is almost competely uninformative.

Let me ask you a question: why do you want Apple to increase marketshare?

I say keep Apple hungry, so they keep on refining OSX and they keep hitting homeruns in the hardware game. In the meantime, I'll just keep shelling out the dough for teh goods, and consider it a price-of-living expense.

[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: mslee ]</strong><hr></blockquote>


why do I want Apple to increase marketshare!? Why would anyone NOT want them to?

Do you not want more peripheral, hardware, and software options. Mac users will never have equal options until Apple makes inroads on marketshare. When I walk into a store I see so many cool things I want, whether it be a game or a sound card, or whatever. Why should a company develop for a platform with 3-5 percent marketshare? the R/D costs usually outweigh the return.

Don't be blind. Apple needs to maintain and increase their marketshare.

[quote]Originally posted by Macintosh:
<strong>2) Pride. Wouldn't it be nice if people finally respected macs as computers?

Apple just is not capable of doing better at marketing than they are doing now. They cant use up too many resources on educating the avg. consumer. The Apple marketing goal is that they want people that are considering buying a computer to check out Apple. Apple wants to be recognized as a value choice in the computer business. If everybody was like me then Apple would not need to advertise. The more of "us" they get the better off Apple is.

[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: Macintosh ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

1.) don't speak anymore.
2.) Apple isn't capable of marketing better? they waste their money on dumbass ads which do nothing to educate the general public, nothing to attract them, nothing not even to make them notice the damn ads. You're telling me an ass dancing to crappy music with headphones on in a dark apartment is the best Apple could do for ads?

Back when Apple had the think different campaign their ads were good, attention grabbing, brand name building, got a point across. Snail ad, "up to twice as fast". Steamroller Ad, "Comeptition flattened", tanks, supercomputer not able to be exported, three easy steps, just how damn easy an imac is. they haven't had anything decent in years

1. Applenut, dont speak anymore.

2. I think the iDVD ads were nothing short of amazing. The iDVD ads showed the product in action, showed people using them the way they should, showed software and hardware.

3. The iPod ad is simple, just like the iPod. It tells you the most important thing. This ad showed that the iPod is small and that it holds 1000 songs. It shows the world that there is something new going on with digital music from Apple.

4. The iBook ads were both very well done. Perfect product shots, iMovie,iTunes, etc..

5. Applenut, go home and you figure out what else Apple should do to market THEIR products. Apple could really use your talent.

6. The think different ad did not show anything but legendary people and the Apple logo.

[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: Macintosh ]

[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: Macintosh ]</p>

Apple can gain a user base overnight. All I have to do is point to the original iMac.

As far as market share, I think we are being a bit too broad. For one thing, Apple is A single computer manufacturer. Shouldn't we be comparing the market share to a Dell or Gateway or Compaq instead? Instead if you take Apple's actual market share as 5%, you're really comparing it to all those other computer makers combined. Sure it is important for Apple to gain more marketshare, but if anyone REALLy expects the Mac platform to gain a majority, we need to see the return of clones. Could Apple seriously support 30 40 50% of the PC world? I think it would be hard. Apple just needs to inform people about the Mac, because a lot of people really have no idea. If they were exposed and Apple truely had great products, I'm sure we'd see a lot of people convert.

[quote]Originally posted by Macintosh:
<strong>1. Applenut, dont speak anymore.

2. I think the iDVD ads were nothing short of amazing. The iDVD ads showed the product in action, showed people using them the way they should, showed software and hardware.

3. The iPod ad is simple, just like the iPod. It tells you the most important thing. This ad showed that the iPod is small and that it holds 1000 songs. It shows the world that there is something new going on with digital music from Apple.

4. The iBook ads were both very well done. Perfect product shots, iMovie,iTunes, etc..

5. Applenut, go home and you figure out what else Apple should do to market THEIR products. Apple could really use your talent.

6. The think different ad did not show anything but legendary people and the Apple logo.

[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: Macintosh ]

[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: Macintosh ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

lol.
1.) nothing short of amazing? how far up Jobs ass do you have your dick?
2.) the ipod ad tells you nothing. 1000 songs in your pocket? great. was it an appealing ad? hell no. ask yourself. you are not a mac user, not even in to computers. you see this ad during a commercial break. do you stay at the channel and watch the whole thing or see some lame guy dancing around and switch the channel. you switch the channel.
3.) the iBook ads were horrible. the one that was shown the most was the one with the kid on the airplane. it showed a young punk kid being obnoxious, using a laptop on a plane yet taking up 3 seats and listening to year old obnoxious music. sorry but that is a horrible ad. the other one with a coupel of devices floating around it was barely shown and had next to no creative value at all.

4.) the think different ad and its campaign won for commercial of the year and numerous other advertising awards. but I'm sure you knew that. That one ad was aired back when Jobs first came back and it showed people Apple was still around. listen to the words. its a powerful commercial and the whole campaign built Apple's brand recognition levels back up to old levels. As a result Apple is one of the strongest brands in the world. most anyone who sees the logo knows its Apple Computer. I also listed a couple other commercials from the time period. Convenient how you show no mention of those.

Macintosh, you're a chronic liar and I can't believe you still have the lack of shame to keep posting here.

It is also true that a lot of people have no idea about Apple because they could care less and are computer owners, just not people in need of an upgrade. When these people that have no clue go to upgrade they get bad advice. How can Apple take care of every single M$ grunt trying to pawn off a cheap PC to Joe Stupid?

It is going to take brilliant minds.

it's not going to take brilliant minds. Apple needs to address the differences between a mac and a pc, the benefits of the mac. Show off OS X, show off how easy it is to do things. have an ad with , gasp, Office V.X featured and show that we have Office. have a few ads featuring Mac developers showing off some of the great software available.

Have a series of ads featuring the AppleMasters and how they use macs in their careers.

Have a series of ads featuring the AppleMasters and how they use macs in their careers.

That is an original idea, I like it.

[quote]Originally posted by Macintosh:
<strong>1. Applenut, dont speak anymore.

2. I think the iDVD ads were nothing short of amazing. The iDVD ads showed the product in action, showed people using them the way they should, showed software and hardware.

3. The iPod ad is simple, just like the iPod. It tells you the most important thing. This ad showed that the iPod is small and that it holds 1000 songs. It shows the world that there is something new going on with digital music from Apple.

4. The iBook ads were both very well done. Perfect product shots, iMovie,iTunes, etc..

5. Applenut, go home and you figure out what else Apple should do to market THEIR products. Apple could really use your talent.

6. The think different ad did not show anything but legendary people and the Apple logo.

[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: Macintosh ]

[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: Macintosh ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Look at the iPod and iBook ads. What do they show your common Mr. Bigshot who will be ordering new computer for his whole company next quarter? That macs are toys, and sloppy people use them. Mr. Joe Schmoe will not be buying apple products because the ads have told him NOT too. I believe their ads are having a negative effect, not a positive.

Ask 10 random people what iTunes and iMovie are, I guarantee people will not be educated about them.

Don't diss applenut, he is a smart guy and he should be given a lot of respect. I like realism and I just want to help.

You all know better than Chiat/Day.

[quote]Originally posted by Macintosh:
<strong>2) Pride. Wouldn't it be nice if people finally respected macs as computers?

Apple just is not capable of doing better at marketing than they are doing now.
[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: Macintosh ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hah! Did Apple always have 5% market share? Or did they have more, say in 1994? Doh!

OS X is revolutionary. If someone can't see that then perhaps a Wintel is best for them. Let them waste their time getting XP to work, they deserve it.

Something funny: Over the Holidays, whenever discussion switched to computers at get-tegethers, it was always comprised of everyone bitching about how their Wintels don't work properly! Of course I was always very silent, because my Mac works fine.

Notice that when Mac users get toegether, they talk about what you can DO with a computer, rather than complain about their computers not working.

[quote]Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg:
<strong>OS X is revolutionary.</strong><hr></blockquote>

In what way exaclty? It's a working OS. So?

Name one other Unix OS that is fit for consumer consumption.

[quote]Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg:
<strong>Name one other Unix OS that is fit for consumer consumption.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Why does it have to be Unix anyway, Unix is old. Actually Linux/OpenBSD with KDE2 would be it, it only lacks software (which has nothing to do with the OS)... IRIX had its share of "users" in the 3D market... Windows NT used to be POSIX compilant, and maybe Win2000 is too (I don't know).

And think of BeOS, which sadly is no more. Ok, not quite Unix, but it worked and it worked well, plus it was a consumer OS.

As if it's such a great feat to make a working OS - it's only a first for Apple, nothing revolutionary.

If you can't see the fact that OSX is the best thing going for Apple, and for the entire industry in my opinion, then you're totally missing the boat.

[quote]Originally posted by mslee:
<strong>If you can't see the fact that OSX is the best thing going for Apple, and for the entire industry in my opinion, then you're totally missing the boat.</strong><hr></blockquote>

OSX is a good thing for Apple because Apple will finally get a proper OS. It's really not that important for the entire industry, unless it gains more than 30% market share. People who want secure Unix powered servers get OpenBSD, people who want games and lots of software can be happy with WinXP and Apple guys and gals can at last experience multitasking in OSX.

You believe the Apple marketing department too easy.