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post #41 of 159
1/10/04 at 8:55pm
Ok, Scott, why do *you* think the ACLU is representing NAMBLA?
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post #42 of 159
1/10/04 at 9:01pm
If the NAMBLA pamphlet was found to have induced a pedophile to act, then drewprops has an argument, but again this wouldnt be a free speach case under the current opinion of the supreme court.

In other words you have to prove that NAMBLA's existence causes pedophiles to act.

Basically you are making an argument that can be used against groups that train people to use guns to kill people.
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post #43 of 159
1/10/04 at 9:07pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Because NAMBLA is helping child rapists rape more children.

Don't you have a problem with that?


You know if NAMBLA were say "We like to do this to kids" that might be one thing but rather they say "This is how you do this to kids." That's criminal.

Free speech is a good thing. If this pamphlet is available, then not only can pedophiles be informed, but so can parents and kids. That's a good thing. If it's hidden, the information will just go underground. Out in the open it can educate everyone or anyone. That's a good thing.

Why don't you show how NAMBLA is helping child rapists rape more children with the aid of the ACLU.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #44 of 159
1/10/04 at 10:07pm
NAMBLA has the legal right to print pamphlets of this particular type under their freedom of speech rights.

The ACLU has the right to defend them and their right to that speech.

Conversely, people have the right to be completely outraged and disgusted by, as well as question the legality of, the content of the NAMBLA pamphlets. and the ACLU's willingness to afford them the opportunity of producing materials that can very likely lead to the sexual assault of their child, or someone else's.

Just as the ACLU has the right to defend the rights of child molesters, dissenters have the right to say that what they believe NAMBLA is doing is inciting violence towards children, and the ACLU is perpetuating and lending validity to that.

If some of you can't at least recognize that the fact that they post instructions on how to commit illegal acts on children could be considered a call to violence, then you're terribly shortsighted and narrow minded. This is not me saying that is what this specific piece does in actuality, but I recognize the validity of the argument against this pamphlet.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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post #45 of 159
1/10/04 at 10:32pm
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
If some of you can't at least recognize that the fact that they post instructions on how to commit illegal acts on children could be considered a call to violence, then you're terribly shortsighted and narrow minded. This is not me saying that is what this specific piece does in actuality, but I recognize the validity of the argument against this pamphlet.

As I stated previously, education is always a two-way street.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #46 of 159
1/10/04 at 10:52pm
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
As I stated previously, education is always a two-way street.

Yes, therefor we should teach procedural techniques for successfully executing school massacres. This will no doubt educate the public and help curb future school shootings.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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post #47 of 159
1/10/04 at 11:29pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
The ACLUs has gotten way too political to claim to be simply for civil rights. They came out against the California recall. Not because it was a civil rights issue but because they didn't want a democrat voted out.

They should stay out of politics.

Yes yes yes. This is exactly right. The ACLU, whether anyone here likes it or not, is a politically charged organization. The ACLU more often than not does what they do for political reasons, not always for civil liberties. I'm all for civil liberties, but the ACLU has gone beyond fighting for them and has turned itself into an organization of politics, and now I guess "Jesus-hating child rapists." I don't carry this extreme view of the ACLU, but they need to take it down a notch and get their agenda straight before fighting anymore. The politics have to go.
Come waste your time with me

In a world without doors or walls, there is no need for Gates or Windows
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Come waste your time with me

In a world without doors or walls, there is no need for Gates or Windows
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post #48 of 159
1/11/04 at 12:47am
Quote:
Originally posted by DMBand0026
The ACLU, whether anyone here likes it or not, is a politically charged organization.

Um. Duh.

It's an organization committed to the defense of civil liberties guaranteed by the US Constitution. Of course it's "politically charged."

Quote:
The ACLU more often than not does what they do for political reasons, not always for civil liberties.

Civil liberties ARE politics. In America, discussion of "civil liberties" is THE BASIS of all political discussion, really. What do you think people are always arguing about if it's not the proper relationship between the individual and the state?

Quote:
I'm all for civil liberties, but the ACLU has gone beyond fighting for them and has turned itself into an organization of politics, and now I guess "Jesus-hating child rapists."

I'm all for freedom of the press, but I just don't like all that pornography and sin I see in Reader's Digest and at Disneyworld. Those publishers should have to go through an elaborate system of screeners before anything is allowed to make its way to the public. And I should be in control of those screeners. And anything that takes power away from me will not be tolerated.

Look. You either support freedom of the press and religion, or you don't. This means that, sometimes, you're going to have to support the rights of people whose ideas you despise. I suggest you go and read some Andrew Hamilton.

Quote:
I don't carry this extreme view of the ACLU, but they need to take it down a notch and get their agenda straight before fighting anymore. The politics have to go.

This kind of thinking would undo everything that makes America America. It is also ironic that you use a political statement to decry politics having influence in, well, politics.

--

Not to go all Humbert Humbert on this discussion, but can anyone confirm for me what the legal age of homosexual consent is? Is it 18? Does it vary from state to state?

Cheers
Scott
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #49 of 159
1/11/04 at 12:53am
Midwinter...what I meant when I said "the ACLU is a politically charged organization" was that they fight harder for certain civil liberties in order to benefit one political party. I'm aware that they are a political organization. I know that the ACLU sticks up for civil liberties of those who's views are unpopular, and I support that all they way, but I see a lot from them that I don't like.

And to answer your question...in the states that it is legal, the age is 18.
Come waste your time with me

In a world without doors or walls, there is no need for Gates or Windows
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Come waste your time with me

In a world without doors or walls, there is no need for Gates or Windows
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post #50 of 159
1/11/04 at 1:12am
Quote:
Originally posted by DMBand0026
Midwinter...what I meant when I said "the ACLU is a politically charged organization" was that they fight harder for certain civil liberties in order to benefit one political party.

I disagree. Strongly. Vociferously. The very notion that you think the defense of civil liberties guaranteed by the US Constitution benefits one party above another is preposterous.

Quote:
I'm aware that they are a political organization.

Good.

Quote:
I know that the ACLU sticks up for civil liberties of those who's views are unpopular...

Good. (And it's "whose." "Who's" means "who is")

Quote:
...and I support that all they way,

I would argue that nothing you have said supports this statement.

Quote:
...but I see a lot from them that I don't like.

That's the point. They support the rights of individuals to say things that you don't like. If you want to know what it would be like without such things being legally protected, I suggest you watch the first 10 minutes of Elizabeth.

Quote:
And to answer your question...in the states that it is legal, the age is 18.

Now that's interesting. Why is it that gay men have to be older to consent to sex than heterosexual women?

Cheers
Scott
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #51 of 159
1/11/04 at 5:42am
Thread Starter 
I don't agree that NAMBLA's "how to" pamphlets constitutes protected speech.


What about the other side of it? Why does the ACLU have to chase the Boy Scouts out of public buildings? When I was a Boy Scout we met in the school cafeteria at night. Is that a violation of civil rights? Such a horrible violation that the ACLU has to throw it's full weight at it?
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post #52 of 159
1/11/04 at 8:17am
I havent read the pamphlets nor do i believe anyone on this board has either. But they have to be proven to constitute a call for violence. A gun operators manual could constitute a similar threat. The idea of free will has a great deal to do with this discussion. A person reading the pamphlet does not need to act on it. If the pamphlet induces the individual to act that is something different etc etc. Obviously the ACLU does not feel this pamphlet is a credible call for action.
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post #53 of 159
1/11/04 at 9:03am
All of you defending ACLU and Nambla should be ashamed of yourself.

North American MAN-BOY Love Association - this name does not say enough?

I am constantly baffled by the left's willingness to err on the side of evil/wrong, just for the sake possibly protecting someone's rights. The matter of right or wrong is pushed to the wayside in favor of the argument about civil rights, which is much more obscure. They will dance in the streets and claim victory when Nambla can, by edict from some judge, put pamphlets in every classroom or right beside the rental guides at your local grocery store.

You guys are sick. Let's educate everyone with pamphlets about beastiality and sex with the dead, while we are at it.

Let's take an organization like the BS, that helps kids and teaches them all kinds of life lessons, and kick them of schools and such where it is convenient for them to meet, which I would assume has costed enrollment, just because they as an organization recognize a creator, While at the same time encouraging an organization that "educates" men on how to establish a romantic/sexual relationship with young boys.

You lefties see nothing wrong with that philosophy?

Very scary stuff.
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post #54 of 159
1/11/04 at 9:20am
I am sorry but this is judged in a court of law and laws dont provide a morality.

bunge is right. degrading NAMBLA's right to publish the pamphlet will provide the means for a group of gun-hating left wingers to push in court the legal liability of all publishers of gun operator guides in murders by gun use.

If i publish a means to make an explosive in a scientific journal, by NaplesX's logic I am as bad as the people who use that explosive to blow up things. Ridiculous.
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post #55 of 159
1/11/04 at 9:25am
Quote:
Originally posted by billybobsky
I am sorry but this is judged in a court of law and laws dont provide a morality.

bunge is right. degrading NAMBLA's right to publish the pamphlet will provide the means for a group of gun-hating left wingers to push in court the legal liability of all publishers of gun operator guides in murders by gun use.

If i publish a means to make an explosive in a scientific journal, by NaplesX's logic I am as bad as the people who use that explosive to blow up things. Ridiculous.

Children are the most vulnerable in our society. It is our responsibility to protect them. You are trying to justify something that has no justification whatsoever. You ARE just as sick as those enrolled in that disgusting association.

Guilt by association.
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post #56 of 159
1/11/04 at 9:34am


that was funny. guilt by association. classic.
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post #57 of 159
1/11/04 at 9:44am
War is Peace.
Freedom is Slavery.
Ignorance is Strength.
proud resident of a failed state
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post #58 of 159
1/11/04 at 9:45am
Quote:
Originally posted by billybobsky


that was funny. guilt by association. classic.

I am disappointed to see that you or anyone finds child molestation funny. I have a special knowledge of this sick mentality that can damage or ruin the life of it's victims.

I also have 3 kids and I am very disturbed by the lack of outrage at this underbelly of society that you seems to be gaining acceptance.

So please do not ask me to be apathetic or understanding or accepting. It will not fly with me.
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post #59 of 159
1/11/04 at 9:46am
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
War is Peace.
Freedom is Slavery.
Ignorance is Strength.

You are a silly baffoon.
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post #60 of 159
1/11/04 at 9:47am
i dont agree with what the NAMBLA represents, but as the saying goes I will defend to the death their right to speech.

I guess since I will also defend the right of fundamentalist christians to stand on a soap box on the street and spouting fire and brimstone, I am also guilty by association with whatever crimes they are commiting like disturbing the peace etc etc.

Children should be protected, fine. But what does this mean? If a parent hits a child once a month for three years, is that abuse? By law, I dont think it is. But what effects does that hitting have on that child? Will they resort to violence at some point in their life resulting in the murder of another individual? Its society's role to defend people from actual acts, not hypothetical ones. A gun manual doesnt direct a murderer to kill his three children. A NAMBLA manual doesnt direct a pedophile to act on his/her impulses. There is a choice.
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post #61 of 159
1/11/04 at 9:52am
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
Yes, therefor we should teach procedural techniques for successfully executing school massacres. This will no doubt educate the public and help curb future school shootings.

There probably should be a class about them somewhere, in some college or university. Let some people with a good solid background in psychology investigate the topic and maybe they'll find a solution.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #62 of 159
1/11/04 at 9:56am
NaplesX, I think, needs to have a time-out to calm down. The moment you start thinking someone else is actually accepting child molestation, it's obvious your brain has started a shut-down procedure and you're continuing on inertia.
proud resident of a failed state
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post #63 of 159
1/11/04 at 9:56am
Quote:
Originally posted by billybobsky
i dont agree with what the NAMBLA represents, but as the saying goes I will defend to the death their right to speech.

I guess since I will also defend the right of fundamentalist christians to stand on a soap box on the street and spouting fire and brimstone, I am also guilty by association with whatever crimes they are commiting like disturbing the peace etc etc.

Children should be protected, fine. But what does this mean? If a parent hits a child once a month for three years, is that abuse? By law, I dont think it is. But what effects does that hitting have on that child? Will they resort to violence at some point in their life resulting in the murder of another individual? Its society's role to defend people from actual acts, not hypothetical ones. A gun manual doesnt direct a murder to kill his three children. A NAMBLA manual doesnt direct a pedophile to act on hi/her impulses. There is a choice.

You are sick and every post confirms and strengthens that opinion.

The whole free speech thing was established so citizens could speak out against their government without the fear of reprisals. This has nothing to do with the free speech that the founding fathers wanted to protect. This is the left's attempt to have questionable and often offensive behavior accepted by mandate of the courts. You are defending child molestation by saying "this is the step before the actual act, so we must protect it since it is not the act itself." in essence.

Sick
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post #64 of 159
1/11/04 at 9:58am
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
There probably should be a class about them somewhere, in some college or university. Let some people with a good solid background in psychology investigate the topic and maybe they'll find a solution.

wrong poster, sorry
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post #65 of 159
1/11/04 at 10:00am
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
NaplesX, I think, needs to have a time-out to calm down. The moment you start thinking someone else is actually accepting child molestation, it's obvious your brain has started a shut-down procedure and you're continuing on inertia.

refer to my previous reply to you.
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post #66 of 159
1/11/04 at 10:04am
I'm still trying to figure out what a "baffoon" is.
proud resident of a failed state
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post #67 of 159
1/11/04 at 10:09am
Oh dear. I am sure you have had thoughts of doing illegal acts, say speeding to get to work, but decided against it because of it legality. Since you had that thought, you broke the law? Hmm. Sounds earily familiar to pre-crime.

Are car manufacturers responsible for a death caused by speeding because they dont put govenors on their engines? No. But it took a court to decide that I believe.

Acts are what are illegal.

I really feel you believe that I am sick, its ashame. I think child molestation is the worse thing you could do to a child. I share your views on the core matter that you are arguing. And you think I am sick because I defend a group of peoples right to say what they want to say. This isnt McCarthyism, I am not a member of this organization because I defend their rights. Their rights are my rights and if they loose their rights I loose mine in a way. This is like the decency laws of the 1960's. Do you agree with those?
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post #68 of 159
1/11/04 at 10:19am
Quote:
[i]I really feel you believe that I am sick, its ashame. I think child molestation is the worse thing you could do to a child. I share your views on the core matter that you are arguing. And you think I am sick because I defend a group of peoples right to say what they want to say. This isnt McCarthyism, I am not a member of this organization because I defend their rights. Their rights are my rights and if they loose their rights I loose mine in a way. This is like the decency laws of the 1960's. Do you agree with those? [/B]

What is the purpose of nambla? You cannot give me any other purpose than to encourage Man-Boy "Love". They are encouraging romantic/sexual relationships between adult men and young non legal boys. That is it. Nothing else. You are defending the rights of a despicable and arguably criminal organization on its face.

Why would one do that? Are you trying to prove how fair and open your views are?
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post #69 of 159
1/11/04 at 10:32am
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Why would one do that? Are you trying to prove how fair and open your views are?

I defend the rights of drug dealers, murderers and even crooked cops.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #70 of 159
1/11/04 at 12:04pm
Yeah!

Why do you hate America, Groverat? And children?


Fish

\\wishing there was a sarcastic font
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post #71 of 159
1/11/04 at 12:11pm
Quote:
Originally posted by fishdoc
Yeah!

Why do you hate America, Groverat? And children?


Fish

\\wishing there was a sarcastic font

Sorry fish, but you are starting to derail the thread. The thread is not about Groverat, but about ACLU. Until now i ignored that Groverat was ACLU

Perhaps you want to defend Groverat, but it's still derail the thread.
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post #72 of 159
1/11/04 at 12:23pm
Actually, I was not defending Groverat (at least not as the main point of my post), but I suppose I was being overly subtle/opaque.

My point was that arguing that agreeing with the ACLU meant agreeing with NAMBLA is ridiculous. It is the moral equivalent of stating that Groverat, because of the opinions set forth in this thread, is therefore anti-america and anti-children. It seemed obvious to me when I wrote it (especially when I included the sarcasm line), but I guess it was not.

Fish
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post #73 of 159
1/11/04 at 12:47pm
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
What is the purpose of nambla? You cannot give me any other purpose than to encourage Man-Boy "Love". They are encouraging romantic/sexual relationships between adult men and young non legal boys. That is it. Nothing else. You are defending the rights of a despicable and arguably criminal organization on its face.

Why would one do that? Are you trying to prove how fair and open your views are?

so, nambla the organization, we all pretty much agree, is despicable. no one here seems to like it. but do despicable organizations have rights? i fear the day when the government comes up with a list of unliked organizations, and then gains the rights to userp constitutional powers from them. i don't like nambla, and i don't know the particulars of the aclu's association with them, but i presume that their constitutionally-guaranteed and providence-divined rights were attacked unjustly. even the really bad guys deserve a good lawyer.
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post #74 of 159
1/11/04 at 1:41pm
Quote:
Originally posted by thuh Freak
so, nambla the organization, we all pretty much agree, is despicable. no one here seems to like it. but do despicable organizations have rights? i fear the day when the government comes up with a list of unliked organizations, and then gains the rights to userp constitutional powers from them. i don't like nambla, and i don't know the particulars of the aclu's association with them, but i presume that their constitutionally-guaranteed and providence-divined rights were attacked unjustly. even the really bad guys deserve a good lawyer.

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,38540,00.html

That is a overview of the story.

The aclu is an organization that says it is for human/civil rights but they choose the side of perpetrator over the victim. That is the problem.
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post #75 of 159
1/11/04 at 1:45pm
http://www.nambla1.de/

prepare to be sick.
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post #76 of 159
1/11/04 at 1:47pm
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
The aclu is an organization that says it is for human/civil rights but they choose the side of perpetrator over the victim. That is the problem.

The ACLU is committed to the preservation of rights and freedoms guaranteed by the US Constitution.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #77 of 159
1/11/04 at 1:47pm
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,38540,00.html

That is a overview of the story.

The aclu is an organization that says it is for human/civil rights but they choose the side of perpetrator over the victim. That is the problem.

Thanks for someone finally putting up a link.

Quote:
"It has to do with communications on a website, and material that does not promote any kind of criminal behavior whatsoever."

...

Harvey Silverglate, an ACLU board member, said Wednesday that the group's attorneys will try to block any attempt by the Curleys to get NAMBLA's membership lists, or other materials identifying members.

I'm in favor of this so far, at least until we have some proof that the website and/or materials do promote criminal behavior. As for the second quoted part, I can't imagine why a judge would release that information but the ACLU should stop it.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #78 of 159
1/11/04 at 1:54pm
http://www.boylinks.net/

this is the rights that you are fighting for.
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post #79 of 159
1/11/04 at 1:57pm
Don't conservatives usually say that lawsuits of this kind are silly? Wasn't it you NaplesX that was debating about tort reform and how it's a serious problem that people sue the party that's not responsible, like fat people suing McDonalds or smokers suing RJR.

This seems to me to be a case like that. Not that the parents or kids brought the murder on themselves, but that the perpetrators of the crime did it, not some third party like NAMBLA. Suing NAMBLA seems to me to be shifting responsibility from the perpetrators to some other group that really isn't responsible for the crime.

How do you feel about the case where some kids committed suicide after listening to Judas Priest or Ozzy, and then the parents sued the band?

I have mixed feelings about it. I'd like to see what it is specifically that appears in NAMBLA's books. I strongly doubt that they advocate murdering a child like these guys did. What if they advocate reducing the age of consent? That's fine. If they advocate seducing minors, then I don't know. I suppose lots of people advocate breaking the law. I'd just like to find out more info. But I'm at work right now so I'm not gonna click on any NAMBLA links.
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post #80 of 159
1/11/04 at 1:58pm
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
http://www.boylinks.net/

this is the rights that you are fighting for.

Please get it through your head that no one here is defending some non-existent "right" to molest young boys. This is an issue of free speech.
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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