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My theory on why PC people are so hung up on MHz. - Page 2

post #41 of 68
Hehe, all of Johnson's arguments are pretty lame. He get's shot down everytime he tries so hard to outdo people on this board with his argument, it is quite funny since the points he make are simply ludicrous. He keeps on trying too, which just makes it more entertaining.

Dude, stop making a fool of yourself and go back to your orgasmic experiences with your ugly *** case and M$ software.
"We're not gonna stop."
- Steve Jobs
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"We're not gonna stop."
- Steve Jobs
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post #42 of 68
lol, the really sad part is that i'm a happy PC user. and a happy mac user. i spend most of my time here in threads like this defending the PC side of things, but this guy is just to far off base to have any leg to stand on.

oh well

oh yeah, and to be fair, it was the mac fans who started the penis side of thing.
post #43 of 68
[quote]Originally posted by alcimedes:
<strong>oh yeah, and to be fair, it was the mac fans who started the penis side of thing. </strong><hr></blockquote>
To be even more fair, it was Jamie who started the penis references, and I think we all have to accept he's got some sort of fixation with his genitalia, and the uses he can put it to.
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post #44 of 68
PC's may be just fine and dandy but don't compare those over engineered pieces of junk posted in this thread to a well designed Apple case. It's a crime. Seriously folks.
post #45 of 68
[quote]I guess not having faith in the products you buy must be a main staple of a PC user's existence.<hr></blockquote>

please speak for yourself. i wouldn't pay the money I have for my PC stuff if I didn't have faith in the products. I don't know why you make rediculous statements like that which are extremely out of touch with reality. You prefer Macintosh, I respect that, but don't make rediculous false generalizations about PC users to make yourself feel better about your purchase.

Alchimeds:
[quote]this is straight from one of the articles you mentioned. so what they are saying is that there is no known problem, but a problem might exist.

like i said before, that's a pretty lame arguement when it's going up against hundreds of known security holes, and countless holes that might exist.
<hr></blockquote>

A lot of security issues are found by having them exploited. If an OS isn't being targeted, such holes may never be found. That is be all well and good if a system like OSX never finds much use in an enterprise setting, but if OSX earns Apple more marketshare this becomes a big issue.

Windows has had it's share of security problems and exploits. As far as I know they have almost all been fixed and most virii/trojan/worm threats are only a real threat if the proper patches aren't applied.

So who's really to say that OSX, for instance, is really any more secure when OSX hasn't been exposed like NT/2000/XP?

It's a solid argument that has met no logical rebuttal in this thread besides the usual attempt to dismiss it outright. "Only Two Opinions?" or "That's a pretty lame argument" aren't logical rebuttals.

I'll admit, Security wise MS dropped the ball in it's attempts to add features and functionality in it's race to grab workstation/server marketshare. Apple has been in a race to push out OSX to the point of not even releasing it with the capability to play DVD's initially. That is reason enough to doubt that security was the highest priority of things to address with the creation and with the updates to the operating system.
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post #46 of 68
[quote]Hehe, all of Johnson's arguments are pretty lame. He get's shot down everytime he tries so hard to outdo people on this board with his argument, it is quite funny since the points he make are simply ludicrous. He keeps on trying too, which just makes it more entertaining.
Dude, stop making a fool of yourself and go back to your orgasmic experiences with your ugly *** case and M$ software.
<hr></blockquote>

I'm sitting here wondering why my arguments are being branded as lame when they do have a logical basis and contain some facts to back up my opinions.

Especially since I'm not the one talking about penises or orgasms.

Tarbash, i appologized to you for jumping on you for a misreading on my part. Was that appology insufficient? I'm thinking it wasn't quite sufficient because your reply here contains a hint of spite.

<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[ 03-07-2002: Message edited by: johnsonfromwisconsin ]</p>
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post #47 of 68
[quote]Originally posted by alcimedes:
<strong>lol, the really sad part is that i'm a happy PC user. and a happy mac user. i spend most of my time here in threads like this defending the PC side of things, but this guy is just to far off base to have any leg to stand on.

oh well

oh yeah, and to be fair, it was the mac fans who started the penis side of thing. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, you've never pointed out how I am off base. I would be perfectly glad to listen to any counter-argument you have.

Getting back to the original topic, I think I have met the burden of showing how off-base it is by providing some :shudder: counterexamples.

[ 03-07-2002: Message edited by: johnsonfromwisconsin ]</p>
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post #48 of 68
ok, i'll lay it out as i see it.

your argument is that the new OSX might not be secure. the problem is that this is a worthless arguement. i can argue that you might be a girl. i would argue that my dog might be able to speak. i can argue than anything might be something at some point in the future.

the problem is there is no way to prove or disprove your statement. your factual claim is that something might have an attribute at some unknown time in the future.

however, MS does have security holes now. they have had them in the past. they have hundreds that are known. many of these are known for months before they are patched.

your statement about the security, or lack thereof, of OSX is vaporous and empty. if you had any substance to your claim, it could be substantianted or refuted. as it stands it's like claiming to know how many stars there are in the universe. there's no way to prove or disprove it.

[quote] So who's really to say that OSX, for instance, is really any more secure when OSX hasn't been exposed like NT/2000/XP? <hr></blockquote>

so in order for me to prove to your satisfaction that OSX is secure, it will have to have 90+% marketshare? like i said, there's no way that's going to be a worthwhile arguement anytime in the reasonable future.

as it stands, from what everyone knows, there are a handful of security holes. almost all of them are related to having physical access to the machine. windows is extremely vunerable and has new exploits found every week.

as an example, there are approx. 50 mac viruses. there are well over 50,000 PC viruses.

based on your security arguement, you would also say that you aren't really more likely to be attacked by a virus on a PC, it's just that it's more exposed, so more viruses exist. however, the simple reality is that you are hundreds of times more likely to be exposed to a virus on a PC system than you are on a mac.

the reasoning behind that difference in exposure is a moot point. the fact is that you are less likely to be exposed to viruses on a Mac, period. just like you are much less likely to get rooted or hacked on a mac. the reason does not change the reality.

-alcimedes

[ 03-07-2002: Message edited by: alcimedes ]</p>
post #49 of 68
Thread Starter 
[quote]Apple has been in a race to push out OSX to the point of not even releasing it with the capability to play DVD's initially.<hr></blockquote>

Likely to make sure the more important components of the OS were WORKING. It makes more sense to release the software in a reliable state and release goodies for it later. As for Microsoft, they rush Windows XP to market with the latest Media Player, only to later fix a security vulerability within MP that affected Internet Explorer. Thats what you get for integrating everything under the sun into the OS to stifle competition.

:cool:

[quote]It's not from lack of excitement. The MacWorld mentality is largely derived from an "Us versus Them" type situation. <hr></blockquote>

Typical underdog mentality. No dispute there.

[quote]You prefer Macintosh, I respect that, but don't make rediculous false generalizations about PC users to make yourself feel better about your purchase.<hr></blockquote>

Perhaps I was a little harsh with that statement. For that, I apologize. In any case, whatever generalizations I make are from personal experience and observation. Most PC users I know and have come into contact with are extremely indiferent to Microsoft and its platform. They see no joy in using it. I truly believe you enjoy using your computer, though I doubt your joy comes from the OS itself or the company behind it. I believe that joy originates more from the games you play on it. A Mac user usually likes everything about his or her computer. From the feel of its keyboard to the sound it makes when it raises a query dialog.

About security:
[quote]It's a solid argument that has met no logical rebuttal in this thread besides the usual attempt to dismiss it outright. "Only Two Opinions?" or "That's a pretty lame argument" aren't logical rebuttals.
...
So who's really to say that OSX, for instance, is really any more secure when OSX hasn't been exposed like NT/2000/XP?<hr></blockquote>

It is indeed a solid argument. I'm sure there are vulnerabilities in OSX, or BSD for that matter. OSX is getting alot of attention lately, so I guarantee there will be issues that pop up. But when Microsoft throws security by the way side in favor of adding new features... well frankly I'd prefer to drive a car from a reliable manufacturer. Why else would Bill 'turn the company around' in the name of security if their products weren't so full of holes? Bill knows .NET will never sell in the e-commerce area if everybody knows .NET is full of security vulnerabilities. Microsoft's entire reputation is all about security vulnerabilities. Everybody in IT knows that.

This thread isn't about security or vaginas. Its about how Mac users, with their lower clock speeds and all, have a better computing experience than most PC users.

[ 03-07-2002: Message edited by: mclaugd1 ]</p>
post #50 of 68
alchimedes, mclaugd1:

good replies. I think were getting somewhere.

alchimedes, you're argument is perfectly valid. Our difference involves reality versus hypothosized reality. In reality OSX has relatively few cases of exploits. It has few viruses/worms/trojans. I guess we can all agree that there would be more if the Macintosh platform was more prominent in enterprise.

So no, my argument isn't too valid when you consider the state of affairs as it stands right now, but IIRC Apple has designated OSX as a platform that could potentially make headway into an enterprise setting, in which case an argument such as mine gains a lot of creedance.

[quote]the problem is there is no way to prove or disprove your statement. your factual claim is that something might have an attribute at some unknown time in the future.<hr></blockquote>

Fair enough, It can't be proven at this time either way. But logically, since OSX isn't being barraged like Windows there probably isn't a whole lot of attention being made to OSX security in lieu of addressing other complaints I've seen in the last few months. This is just my hypothesis.

Another thing that generally bugs me about Mac Versus Windows Security where MacAdvocates demonize Windows is that they get the wrong idea about the quality of Windows overall; It isn't perfect, but I regard it as quality software. I regaurd this situation to be a little like when a September callup goes 1 for 2 on the season and boasts that he has a better average than the guy who wins the batting title. Is it statistically true? yes. does it really mean anything as to the skill or potential of the rookie? Not at all.

[quote]A Mac user usually likes everything about his or her computer. From the feel of its keyboard to the sound it makes when it raises a query dialog. <hr></blockquote>

Quite typically, you will see something resembling that from Doit yourself PC users. they tend to take an amount of pride in selecting components and finding it really isn't too tough making a custom machine to their liking. A lot of people I know actually do like using windows as well, particularily 2000/XP.

[quote]OSX is getting alot of attention lately, so I guarantee there will be issues that pop up. But when Microsoft throws security by the way side in favor of adding new features... well frankly I'd prefer to drive a car from a reliable manufacturer. Why else would Bill 'turn the company around' in the name of security if their products weren't so full of holes? Bill knows .NET will never sell in the e-commerce area if everybody knows .NET is full of security vulnerabilities. Microsoft's entire reputation is all about security vulnerabilities. Everybody in IT knows that.
<hr></blockquote>

That's true, the security issues have been beating MS with the PR Ugly Stick. I (silently) applauded the annoucned change of direction towards greater security, but I don't think it's like MS has been ignoring security all these years. MS knew from the early days of NT that security holes could break them. It just isn't that easy. I see the announcement as a peptalk to instil confidence in users and investors and not an "Oh My Gosh our security has been HORRIBlE" type concession.

thanks.

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post #51 of 68
I'd bet 90% of Windows users don't even know what an OS is. Let alone an alternative one.

The doityerselfers are a different breed of horse than the average Windows user.
post #52 of 68
[quote]Now I remember why I never bother going to ars. Too much of this my dick is bigger because I can have four fans and a digital readout of my cpu temp.<hr></blockquote>

Come on seb. Mac users pride themselves on maturity!

Guess what? My Cheiftec (identical to the Antec but a different PSU) arrived today. I took it apart and everything...great case, high quality, etc just as I expected. As I compare it to the G4, it absolutely cannot be considered "overdesigned". If anything, the G4 case is "overdesigned". Flimsy plastic panels covering the top and rear, layers of plastic to give a silvery effect, and extra sheet metal on the inside that covers the fan. Without a manual or anything, I was able to disassemble everything. Except for the front of the case, everything is nice solid steel. When I tap it, it doesn't clatter.

To the people who insist that the Antec (okay okay, Uneec Eugene ), I suggest you check it out the next time you find yourself in MicroCenter or something. I do not regret buying this at all.

Just because it isn't made by Apple does not mean it cannot be of quality. Some people seem to miss this.

[quote]I'd bet 90% of Windows users don't even know what an OS is. Let alone an alternative one.<hr></blockquote>

seb, I would also bet a good percentage of Mac users wouldn't know the same thing. Maybe more do, but its still a minority.

[ 03-07-2002: Message edited by: radar1503 ]</p>
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post #53 of 68
Thread Starter 
Seb said:
[quote]I'd bet 90% of Windows users don't even know what an OS is. Let alone an alternative one.
The doityerselfers are a different breed of horse than the average Windows user.
<hr></blockquote>

And johnsonfromwisconsin said:
[quote]Quite typically, you will see something resembling that from Doit yourself PC users. they tend to take an amount of pride in selecting components and finding it really isn't too tough making a custom machine to their liking. <hr></blockquote>

Baby! That was deep. These two replies are absolutely right. This is how I like to see discussion; no mud slinging or "I'm better than you are". Most Doityourselfers who know enough about PCs and Windows can build a machine thats pretty slick. These users are far less likely to be disappointed with the overall experience of their new 'baby' (except perhaps when current components don't have adequate XP drivers yet). Those Mac users whom I consider power users, though they can't select which motherboard to use in their Macs, usually know quite a bit about their computers. There are two kinds of computer users, those who know little about their computers and those who know everything about their computer. Both platforms have each.

johnsonfromwisconsin:
[quote]I guess we can all agree that there would be more if the Macintosh platform was more prominent in enterprise.<hr></blockquote>

You know what? As much as I hate to say it but I doubt there will be must progress for Apple in the enterprise space. There's just too much Wintel investment. But thats just a prediction. If I could predict the future, I'd be a rich man. I do, however, believe that many Unix/Linux applications will quickly find their way to OSX. If Oracle or Cold Fusion find their way to Mac OSX, then I'd be more optimistic. Linux boxes running Apache or MySQL are as cheap as cheap can be. It would take a small leap of faith for an IT department to buy a single PowerMac and try it out. If they liked Linux's performance, their going to love MacOSX.

[quote]That's true, the security issues have been beating MS with the PR Ugly Stick. <hr></blockquote>
Definitely. Its funny. The PC media (journalists) can appear to love Microsoft by giving them tons of .NET or Windows XP or XBox press, but then promptly turn around and point out the latest security problem.

I really don't think they're going to be able to improve security of their products; certainly not .NET or XP. I don't know if any of you are programmers, I certainly am not, but I'm a quality control guy at a software company. Finding architecture issues in complex, open-ended software is very difficult. The software we make is big but it is dwarfed by the code that makes up Windows, Office and the .NET platform. You don't add security to an application or system after its built. You build it from the ground up with security in mind. .NET is already hammered out and Visual Studio .NET is shipping (or is about too). How do they expect to secure the thing? They sure can't do it with Windows. All those people constantly hitting Windows trying to break it are definitely going to do the same to .NET.
post #54 of 68
[quote]If you mean Chieftech, then yeah. What's the big diff? It's not like Apple makes it's quicksilver cases in-house.<hr></blockquote>

Nope, Chieftech just buys from Uneec or Chenming. I'm not sure if Uneec or Chenming is the original manufacturer. It's funny that I know more about your case than you do.

And Apple's cases are probably assembled in its Sacramento plant. And even if they weren't, they were at least designed in-house.
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post #55 of 68
[quote]Nope, Chieftech just buys from Uneec or Chenming. I'm not sure if Uneec or Chenming is the original manufacturer.<hr></blockquote>

Like I said, what's the big diff? It's a high quality part that looks good and is well designed.

[ 03-07-2002: Message edited by: johnsonfromwisconsin ]</p>
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post #56 of 68
[quote]It's funny that I know more about your case than you do.
<hr></blockquote>

:confused:

I'm wondering why you regard that trivial piece of information as relavant.
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post #57 of 68
The only design I like with the Uneec/Chenming case is the removable drive cage, but then again, the Power Mac drive sleds are pretty much just as easy to remove and replace.

Another big problem with these cases is that they're designed for 80 mm fans. There's plenty of room for at least a 92 mm exhaust fan.

If you want a great PC case, go for something like the Palo Alto PA-810. Stick a low-power 120 mm fan in the front and a 92 mm in the back. It's a lot better than the 4 80 mm fan approach of the SX1030 and the 5 80 mm fan approach of the full tower sibling.

Apple achieves equivalent cooling with a single 120 mm exhaust fan and 60 mm HSF fan.
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post #58 of 68
[quote]Originally posted by Belle:
<strong>
To be even more fair, it was Jamie who started the penis references, and I think we all have to accept he's got some sort of fixation with his genitalia, and the uses he can put it to. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Don't get me started on what I can do with my genitalia Belle!

If you were *ahem* my type I'd gladly show you

J

PS Just to make my post a bit more relevant to the topic: PCs suck. Macs don't. Deal with it.

[ 03-08-2002: Message edited by: Jamie ]</p>
post #59 of 68
[quote]PS Just to make my post a bit more relevant to the topic: PCs suck. Macs don't. Deal with it.<hr></blockquote>

But...but...I have 20 Panaflos and a digital temp readout! My penis is huge now!

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post #60 of 68
Ok MacA...err, Radar, instead of being underwhelmed by the discussion brought to us with the help of our diplomats from ars, I'll do the mature thing and simply state that I think the site (ars) is just a wee bit too pretentious for my taste.

It's just my opinion but it seems to me like ars just takes itself too seriously - technologia, quorum, colloquiums, smack -fu masters, caesers and the like just kind of turn me off...

and now johnsons from wisconsins asserting that Apple put up a pic of Harrison to increase sales.... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

I find it more disturbing than useful, but that's just my opinion. We all have our preferences.

Besides, one computer forum is enough for me. Computers are just one small part of my life, afterall - albeit a fun part.
post #61 of 68
[quote]Ok MacA...err, Radar, instead of being underwhelmed by the discussion brought to us with the help of our diplomats from ars, I'll do the mature thing and simply state that I think the site (ars) is just a wee bit too pretentious for my taste. <hr></blockquote>

I guess that's where we are different...I like that kind of stuff that they do over there...no no, not the "mine is better than yours" thing, but they really do do some neat stuff with their boxen. Ever see that Custom aluminium cube posted over there? :eek:

Oh, by the way, my 5 Panaflos are arriving Monday.
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post #62 of 68
Powermacs are pretty lame compared to PC tower hardware. Bad expansion options, limited ports, and not very good stackability.

Hopefully Apple fixes this problem with a new case design, but I'm not counting on it.

But the ultimate problem with even the best PC case designs is that they run Windows. That's a big sacrifice to make just to have cheap, expandable hardware.

And yes, it's true, Mac users tend to have bigger dicks. Most hard-core Windows users I know of are CONSTANTLY yapping about specs, who has the most resolution, the most MHz, the fastest ATA interface, blah blah blah. They are so consumerist! It's like they all took classes for training on how to be a good consumer. In contrast Mac users tend to be less consumer-oriented, they use Macs as tools, not to make up for some lack of contentedness with life.

[quote] Not that I'm aware of, but there is a variation on penis envy - comparing the sizes of boyfriends' little soldiers. <hr></blockquote>

This is SO true! Women spend so much time doing this. Men just don't care, it's like, "did you fu[k her?", and that's enough for a guy to know. But women, they've got to get details on the sex act, including but not limited to penis size. I had a woman measure my dick once because she wanted to compare it to her friend's boyfriend's cock (she had serupticiously put marks on her arm and used them to check the lenght).

Another thing women like to compare is rock size...they check out each other's engagement rings to see who's boyfriend spent the most $$$ on the ring, apparently they assume that this correllates with the guy's earning potential, and thus whoever has the guy with the most earning potential has the best find.

So women do plenty of dick-size comparing themselves, enough so that they could compare MHz and such if they wanted.
post #63 of 68
[quote]Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg:
<strong>I had a woman measure my dick once because she wanted to compare it to her friend's boyfriend's cock (she had serupticiously put marks on her arm and used them to check the lenght).

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Serupticiously put marks where? Her little finger? What? Who said that? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

J :cool:
post #64 of 68
[quote]In contrast Mac users tend to be less consumer-oriented, they use Macs as tools, not to make up for some lack of contentedness with life.<hr></blockquote>

I completely disagree. Mac users are religious about they're computers. Seriously, I bet 99% of the Mac users here know who the CEO of Apple is, have named their computer, look forward to opening up the box, etc. We all speculate rampantly about new introductions, trade all sorts of gossip, make mockups and even have dreams about Stevenotes. Just tools? No, not at all. Mac users are extremely fanatical. The fact that you go to a messageboard to discuss upcoming Apple products hurts your argument greatly that Mac users aren't obsessed with their machines.
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post #65 of 68
[quote]Originally posted by radar1503:
<strong>
I completely disagree. Mac users are religious about they're computers.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Irrelevant. Mac users choose their macs as tools, and then some become fanatics about them; it doesn't happen the other way around. The fact that fanatics exist is a testament to the quality of the system and does not automatically invalidate the "macs chosen as tools" argument. The only reason to choose a (more or less) niche computer with limited software support is that it must do something better than the mainstream alternative.

[quote]<strong>
The fact that you go to a messageboard to discuss upcoming Apple products hurts your argument greatly that Mac users aren't obsessed with their machines.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

It may hurt his argument that he isn't obsessed with his machine, but you cannot infer the zealotry of all mac users based on the small number of mac users that visit this site.
post #66 of 68
Mac users here are not typical Mac users.

Surely you have enough marbles rolling around up there to realize that...
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post #67 of 68
[quote]Irrelevant. Mac users choose their macs as tools, and then some become fanatics about them; it doesn't happen the other way around. The fact that fanatics exist is a testament to the quality of the system and does not automatically invalidate the "macs chosen as tools" argument. The only reason to choose a (more or less) niche computer with limited software support is that it must do something better than the mainstream alternative.<hr></blockquote>

So then since there are tons of people who swear by Windows then it must be a flawless operating system? Just because they aren't initially fanatical about their computer choice doesn't mean they always see their mac as "just a tool". Come on, do you think of your Mac as "just a tool"? I don't. It's a cult.

[quote]It may hurt his argument that he isn't obsessed with his machine, but you cannot infer the zealotry of all mac users based on the small number of mac users that visit this site.<hr></blockquote>

Nor can you base every PC user on a few freaks at Ars.

[quote]Mac users here are not typical Mac users.

Surely you have enough marbles rolling around up there to realize that...<hr></blockquote>

And surely you, Eugene, realize that the folks at Ars are not typical PC users. That goes without being said. People call Ars people freaks, they like their computers too much. Look around here at AI; we're a bunch of fanatics!

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post #68 of 68
[quote]Originally posted by radar1503:
<strong>
So then since there are tons of people who swear by Windows then it must be a flawless operating system?</strong><hr></blockquote>

No, but it does have its advantages. And to be honest, I've never actually met anyone who likes windows as an operating system. The apps, hardware, etc. yes, but not the OS itself.

[quote]<strong>Come on, do you think of your Mac as "just a tool"? I don't.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't anymore, either. But the reason I bought a mac was because, at the time, DOS and Win3 couldn't do squat. I continue to buy macs because Windows still can't work the way that I do.
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