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Darwine! WINE for Mac OS X is coming

post #1 of 91
1/24/04 at 9:29am
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You heard me! The Darwine team is porting WINE to Mac OS X and Darwin. The first screenshot on its home page (http://darwine.sourceforge.net/) shows that it has good potential.

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post #2 of 91
1/24/04 at 9:49am
I'm getting to the point where I'll either need VPC for a G5 (not yet available yet) or I'll need to start carrying my PC home from work. That sucks.
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post #3 of 91
1/24/04 at 9:52am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
I'm getting to the point where I'll either need VPC for a G5 (not yet available yet) or I'll need to start carrying my PC home from work. That sucks.

Heh. Once this gets going you won't have to do that. VPC sux and it'll always be slow... but Darwine seems to promise native speeds running Windows apps. I'm curious to see what'll happen.
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post #4 of 91
1/24/04 at 9:57am
Quote:
Originally posted by Proud iBook Owner 2k2
Heh. Once this gets going you won't have to do that. VPC sux and it'll always be slow... but Darwine seems to promise native speeds running Windows apps. I'm curious to see what'll happen.

Heh...native for PC...but there is no way to emulate that kind of speed for macs.
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post #5 of 91
1/24/04 at 9:59am
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Quote:
Originally posted by ast3r3x
Heh...native for PC...but there is no way to emulate that kind of speed for macs.

Don't be so sure about that yet... Let's see what happens..
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post #6 of 91
1/24/04 at 10:03am
this seems very interesting.. .Do you need a Windows license?
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post #7 of 91
1/24/04 at 10:04am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Nebagakid
this seems very interesting.. .Do you need a Windows license?

LOL I doubt it since there isn't any MS code in there.
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post #8 of 91
1/24/04 at 10:58am
Quote:
Originally posted by Proud iBook Owner 2k2
Don't be so sure about that yet... Let's see what happens..

Don't get your hopes up either.

The FAQ page says the developers are using Bochs for the x86 emulation. Bochs is NOTORIOUSLY SLOW, often described as running (read: "crawling") a magnitude slower than VirtualPC.

Of course, this could be useful if Microsoft ever decides to pull the plug on VirtualPC (not that that should happen any time soon).
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post #9 of 91
1/24/04 at 11:57am
Ouch I missed the part about bochs that kinda sucks
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post #10 of 91
1/24/04 at 12:05pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by SilentEchoes
Ouch I missed the part about bochs that kinda sucks

Heh.. VPC runs like shit for me.. Hopefully when this gets going well I'll be able to run alotta stuff natively... and it'll be using the Unix core to run... not a program...
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post #11 of 91
1/24/04 at 12:54pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Proud iBook Owner 2k2
and it'll be using the Unix core to run... not a program...

You miss the part about Bochs again?

Everything is going to be piped through Bochs, another program. Windows software will not be running "natively" any more than it does with VirtualPC. The only difference is that application windows may run in a rootless windowed mode.

Apps run through Darwine will not be any closer to the "Unix core" than Virtual PC. WINE Is Not an Emulator; that's what WINE stands for. It cannot run anything x86 code on a PPC processor. It needs an actual hardware emulator like Bochs for that. Bochs is not a lower-level library like Quartz or QuickTime. It's an application (and a pretty hefty one at that) that the Darwine people are apparently hacking to allow pipes for other processes through WINE.

Unless these people are going through all of Bochs' code and rewriting/optimizing it from scratch, you really shouldn't expect it to run a much faster than Virtual PC does. Emulating a CISC processor on a RISC processor is a very complicated (and intensive) task. There's a reason there aren't already faster alternatives to Virtual PC; real-time code translation on this magnitude is an arduous task to plan out, let alone attempt in code. This isn't a GameBoy they're emulating.
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post #12 of 91
1/24/04 at 1:19pm
It still will be interesting to see how it compares to VPC though.

It will also be nice to have an alternative to VPC, A free one at that, Especially in todays world it makes more since to spend your money on a cheap PC at the same price as VPC and still run your apps faster than you ever could in VPC.

A nice little VNC to your PC box in the closet would be kinda nice.
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post #13 of 91
1/24/04 at 1:31pm
At least it's not emulating Windows and then running the applications on top of it. It's cool to see more work like this being done though because some people need to run programs that still aren't available for the Mac. I'm even happier though that I don't need to.
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post #14 of 91
1/24/04 at 1:36pm
That's kinda what I was thinking. This makes much better sense from a monetary and otherwise standpoint. You don't have to have a copy of Windows. I would think of this as a proof-of-concept rather than usable code. And if you look at the WINE site, they don't suggest that they have much of the Windows API complete and recompiles are also necessary for apps, so this is far from being worthwhile, except on open-source code.
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post #15 of 91
1/24/04 at 1:59pm
If they're smart they'll use qemu instead of Bochs.

This is a major long-term project, but it looks like they're on the right track.
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post #16 of 91
1/24/04 at 2:06pm
Bochs is crap. I wish Orangemicro would make PC cards again.
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post #17 of 91
1/24/04 at 2:13pm
Thread Starter 
Awesome points guys. I knew this would become a popular topic. I can't wait until it's out of CVS and it has an Aqua GUI to work with. That would also be cool if it would run without Aqua so if the use wanted they could
run it on pure Darwin with such Unix WMs as KDE or GNOME. That's what I'd wanna do.
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post #18 of 91
1/24/04 at 2:56pm
I was going to take it for a spin and see what they got done so far but I cannot get it to install with their script. I got it to compile from source but I am still working with it.


OT: Just wondering, if this is going to become a regular topic could you take the caps and exclamations out of the title?
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post #19 of 91
1/24/04 at 5:49pm
Quote:
Don't get your hopes up either.

The FAQ page says the developers are using Bochs for the x86 emulation. Bochs is NOTORIOUSLY SLOW, often described as running (read: "crawling") a magnitude slower than VirtualPC.

The main reason is that it's mainly written in a high level language (probably C) to keep it portable, rather than as a several, heavily optimised machine code programs.

Does anyone know how to get Bochs to install? I remember that there were some helper setup app.s about.

Quote:
Emulating a CISC processor on a RISC processor is a very complicated (and intensive) task.

Not as bad as trying to implement a PowerPC emulator on IA32 though...
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post #20 of 91
1/25/04 at 4:16pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Stoo
The main reason is that it's mainly written in a high level language (probably C) to keep it portable, rather than as a several, heavily optimised machine code programs.

That means no Altivec, right?
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post #21 of 91
1/25/04 at 5:42pm
Darwine cant run windows exe's on OS X at the moment.
However, the status indicates that it is source compatible with windows. This means that you should be able to compile windows code on a mac ( probably using gcc ) and then run it. So it would be a PPC windows exe.

This isnt such a bad thing. There is plenty of windows code out there that could be handy.
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post #22 of 91
1/26/04 at 11:16am
Quote:
That means no Altivec, right?

Programming in Altivec in nicer than most machine languages due to the nice set of C macros provided, but regular Bochs almost certainly has no Altivec code.
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post #23 of 91
1/26/04 at 11:21am
Quote:
Originally posted by Aquatic
Bochs is crap. I wish Orangemicro would make PC cards again.

Haha...P4's and G5's in the same box == bad idea
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post #24 of 91
1/26/04 at 12:06pm
If this thing works does that mean all those windows viruses are going to run on my machine
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post #25 of 91
1/26/04 at 12:31pm
  • Anders
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Would someone please give me a clue what this is about?
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post #26 of 91
1/26/04 at 2:05pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Would someone please give me a clue what this is about?

Essentially, it's the same as Classic.app, except it gives you a Windows environment instead of a Mac OS 9 environment. Basically. More or Less. Kinda sorta.
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post #27 of 91
1/26/04 at 2:12pm
how about MAC OS X ON INTEL

just sayin...

but if WINE on MAC works, it would be a nail in a coffin, a powerbook will be my next buy,

bye bye windoze
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post #28 of 91
1/26/04 at 5:39pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Whisper
Essentially, it's the same as Classic.app, except it gives you a Windows environment instead of a Mac OS 9 environment. Basically. More or Less. Kinda sorta.

Nope Classic was not an emulator. Think of this as another version of VPC...
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post #29 of 91
1/26/04 at 7:31pm
Quote:
Originally posted by SilentEchoes
Nope Classic was not an emulator. Think of this as another version of VPC...

Except WINE stands for Wine Is Not an Emulator. WINE translates windows instructions into the equivelent Linux instructions. So although it's not like Classic (which actually boots inside a virtual machine), it's closer to Classic than VPC.
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post #30 of 91
1/26/04 at 7:36pm
Well, VPC runs windows though, cutting out the running of windows seems like a pretty big deal.

or is it not really.:consufed:
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post #31 of 91
1/26/04 at 7:40pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Barto
Except WINE stands for Wine Is Not an Emulator. WINE translates windows instructions into the equivelent Linux instructions. So although it's not like Classic (which actually boots inside a virtual machine), it's closer to Classic than VPC.

Right.. it would be if they did not have to emulate the x86 code. Which is what BOCHs is for.. WINE may not be an emu but BOCHs is.. Like I said its closer to VPC than classic.

WINE itself may be like classic but this whole DarWINE setup is not.
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post #32 of 91
1/26/04 at 8:20pm
I think the idea is that it would act like classic... not necessarily have the same jargon attached.

Of course, there would need to be emulation, but if MS Windows wasn't needed, then it would be like Classic - there's no Classic Finder in OS X.
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post #33 of 91
1/26/04 at 8:25pm
Err Yeah it will be rootless but the apps are still emulated.. Regardless of what WINE stands for...
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post #34 of 91
1/26/04 at 8:28pm
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Wow, talk about misinformation and confusion... \

Try this on for size:

Windows apps
------------
WINE
------------
BOCHS
------------
Darwin

WINE converts the Windows apps (in x86 code) into comparable Linux calls (in x86 code). BOCHS then takes that x86 code and converts it to PowerPC code, which is actually executed.

So WINE is *STILL* 'Not an Emulator'. It doesn't emulate squat. BOCHS does that. Two separate jobs, two separate tools.
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post #35 of 91
1/26/04 at 8:30pm
I never said WINE did emulate apps. I said this package, darwine, will..
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post #36 of 91
1/26/04 at 8:33pm
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Which was causing confusion that wasn't being addressed to completion. People were confused by what did what where.

Darwine = WINE + BOCHS.

WINE does not emulate. BOCHS does. Darwine will have to by definition, and will do so through BOCHS.
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post #37 of 91
1/26/04 at 8:35pm
Thanks. Thats what I have been saying all along.

Quote:
WINE itself may be like classic but this whole DarWINE setup is not.
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post #38 of 91
1/26/04 at 9:00pm
Quote:
Originally posted by SilentEchoes
Thanks. Thats what I have been saying all along.

Well, classic emulates 68k, but no one goes on about that.

Without looking at the code for darwine, I will make the following leap:

WINE translates windows api calls to linux api calls. This can still be done natively. WINE still uses x11 to do its windowing. So some amount of darwine will run natively.

However, to determine what calls are being made, the code needs to be executed by bochs. I think you'll find that bochs will be jumping between native and x86 code all over the place as it encounters windows api calls that are handled by WINE.

WINE, however can quite happily make use of windows dlls to carry out some of its magic, so Im not sure how much ends being converted to linux api calls.

The indication that this is how it works is that darwine is _SOURCE_ compatible now. You can compile windows programs on the mac and have them work - they are running in the x11 enviroment. One aim of darwine is to eventually map those calls to aqua instead.
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post #39 of 91
1/26/04 at 9:02pm
OT: Im using VNC on my iMac, and win2VNC on my PC to controll my PC and Mac seemlessy from one keyboard and mouse. Its just like having a dual head ( except for drag and drop ). VNC even supports cut and paste between them. Sooooo sweet.
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post #40 of 91
1/26/04 at 9:05pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by mmmpie
OT: Im using VNC on my iMac, and win2VNC on my PC to controll my PC and Mac seemlessy from one keyboard and mouse. Its just like having a dual head ( except for drag and drop ). VNC even supports cut and paste between them. Sooooo sweet.

Come on dude... try and stay on topic... this ain't a VNC thread.. its about Darwine Stay on topic damnit
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