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26th March 2004 - new G5's? - Page 2

post #41 of 116
Quote:
Originally posted by orange whip
Apple Australia trade in offer ending 26 March 2004 may give some clues as to G5 upgrade in Australia??

...long wait....


[URL=http://www.apple.com.au/promo/tradeupg5/]


OMG Just realised you were indicating the apple Australia thought that they were in the know... Hate to break your heart.. Apple America ... yes sir.. the real deal...Apple Australia.... well they proberbly think that inifinate loop is a donut.... Have you ever spoken or unfortunately worked for those guys.... you must be kidding. Apple execs are told the same night as the release happens. Too much information for us here in Oz to handle apparently.... Good try though.
post #42 of 116
Quote:
Originally posted by Amorph
If you put it that way, we have no tangible proof that IBM is able to fab 90nm 970fx's at any clockspeed. The blade, and the Xserve G5, are paper releases.

Okay, fine Mr. Smarmy.

They have acknowledged and published specs (and are selling machines today -- later delivery) on 90nm at 2.0 GHz. We haven't heard from the inside (that I am aware of) that IBM is fabbing faster 970's.

My whole point is this: why are people jumping all over Apple about not releasing new machines? We don't even know that they have new machines ready to be produced.

It is funny (it always happens on various forums) how people believe the guesses we all make and bank on it: "Well, new Powermacs didn't come out. Stupid Apple, I'm buying a Dell."

We may not see new machines until we hit 3GHz. I hope not, but, it seems more likely as time passes.
post #43 of 116
I know that it's the Future Hardware equivalent of trying to read tea leaves, but shipping times for the dual G5s at the Apple Store went from "Same Day" on Friday to "1-3 Days" today.

Also, the refurbed dual machines have gone MIA.
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post #44 of 116
Quote:
Originally posted by neumac
I know that it's the Future Hardware equivalent of trying to read tea leaves, but shipping times for the dual G5s at the Apple Store went from "Same Day" on Friday to "1-3 Days" today.

Also, the refurbed dual machines have gone MIA.

Could mean something for G5's, who knows, but if it does, then what does it mean that all of the eMac's and iMac's still show same day shipping.
just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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post #45 of 116
How about new G5's tomorrow???
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post #46 of 116
Maybe... it's 10th of Feb 2004, or 02/10/04, if you order the numbers a little different you get: 0124 and at the end you put one of the remaining zeros on top of the other and add the a number 4 at the end.. puh... and then, voilá: 012484 - the holy date

Tomorrow, then..
post #47 of 116
Quote:
Originally posted by Addison
I think the point atomicham is trying to make is that whilst Apple have announced 2ghx xServer on 90nm, they are the first 90nm chips. I must say it seems a little odd that the move to 90nm doesn't result in a speed increase over the top end 130nm process. Clearly we don't know if they are sandbagging orif that is the best they can do right now.

Either way, I think we all thought that the first G5 speed bump would have happened by now. SJ gave us a 12 month time frame for a 1ghz jump, it is difficult to believe that Apple is going to do it in one leap.

You can't compare the top speed they are putting in the Xserve to the top speed they could put in a PowerMac. Those are two completely different animals. The best indicator we have is the power output of the G5 Xserve -- 24.5W @ 2 GHz leaves plenty of headroom for the PowerMac G5 case, which we already know can support dual ~75W chips. They could use the existing memory controller and keep the 1 GHz bus speed with a 3:1 ratio... but I suspect they're trying for better. The real question is what are they going to do for RAM.

Believe it or not, I think they might do the 1 GHz jump all at once. Since the 90nm chips are shipping this month it could be any time between now and August.
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post #48 of 116
I'd have to agree that comparing Xserve to Powermac is apple vs. orange. Apple has always kept the powermac slightly faster then the Xserve. I find it extremely hard to swallow that apple is going to do a 1ghz jump. No one in history has done a jump that intense... such as 33mhz to 100mhz. Apple does HAVE to release periodically updates even if they are minor updates... thats the only way to keep Investors content with their stocks. If Apple didn't update for a whole year that would definitely be a stock I wouldn't want my money riding in. This is why the powerbook line has got such moderate updates in the last 18 months.

Could you imagine investing in a company. Their sales slide a bit because a product's strong sales point always fades. Then they won't release the next update for another year. When that update comes... it sux? You just lost a bunch of money.

This is speculation of course but its another point of why apple has to release something. My bet is still this week till mid march.

 

 

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post #49 of 116
Quote:
Originally posted by Programmer
Believe it or not, I think they might do the 1 GHz jump all at once. Since the 90nm chips are shipping this month it could be any time between now and August. [/B]

It would not be wise to do a 50% frequency-increase all at once one year after the rev. A (the "no rev.") release (my personal opinion). First of all, the sale will drop or even stop during the summer-months. Perhaps due to the rumor-mills. Secondly, Apple need to be in the game against Intel and AMD. In April, Intel will release 3.6Ghz "Prescott" (I know - hotter and slower i real-world tests) and also AMD will release some new CPUs. The PC-world mostly met the "fastest PC"-words from SJ with a huge LOL. It created a lot of debate for a couple of weeks, but now it all forgotten. I can imagine what the reaction will be if SJ once again announces the worlds fastest PC...
post #50 of 116
Apple will be careful not to up the Xserve speed before the PowerMac because that may cause buyers to hold up on the G5 purchases anticipating a new PowerMac around the corner. Another factor to keep in mind is that Apple needs to protect their Qtr to Qtr margins and sales. So exhausting their current inventory first then releasing the new Macs will force Apple to fill their inventory with at least 4 weeks worth of computers. (They target a 4 week inventory.) By now, the current PowerMac inventory should be close to depletion, which means that Apple has been producing the new PMG5 and filling their channels with it before the official release.

I suspect that we will get the new PM next week (Maybe topping off at 2.6 GHz). That means we should see 3GHz+ models shipping by the end of August. Exactly one year after the Dual G5 at 2GHz starting shipping. This is putting the PM on a 6 Month cycle. Now that is pretty cool and next Jan/Feb 2005 should see us approaching 4GHz, in line with IBM's rumored 975/980 schedule.
post #51 of 116
I tend to agree that as time goes it looks likely that Apple/IBM will reach the 3 gig mark in one go. And if that is mid-March that puts Apple firmly ahead of their promise.

And, IBM did over deliver last time. 2 gig over the expected 1.8.

I hope so. The 0.09 process seems to be favouring PPC over x86.

Ask Intel.

The 970fx seems to be much smaller, much cooler and plenty of latitude to clock higher without causing a nuclear meltdown (Hi, Prescott...)

The heat figures for the new 970fx at 2 gig seem very impressive. Suggesting much higher clock speeds might not be the problem for IBM that they are for Intel.

It would be a stunning coupe if IBM could deliver 2.6-3.2 gig PPCs just as Prescott and the Pentium 4/5 stalls on the 0.09 process!!!

I'm not betting against it.

The rumours of Apple big wigs saying the rumour folks were way behind on Apple's progress with the G5 Rev B seems to suggest we could be in for a shock. If it's anything like the over delivery of the G5 rev a then I could be getting the wallet out...

Lemon Bon Bon
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post #52 of 116
Quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
The rumours of Apple big wigs saying the rumour folks were way behind on Apple's progress with the G5 Rev B seems to suggest we could be in for a shock. If it's anything like the over delivery of the G5 rev a then I could be getting the wallet out... Lemon Bon Bon

Link?!?!

I'm quite upset with myself since I'm usually up on all the latest in rumor news postings...

Where was that posted?

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post #53 of 116
I believe that was a MOSR-rumor... don't remember exactly where I read it, but I remember thinking: oh well..
post #54 of 116
Quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
I tend to agree that as time goes it looks likely that Apple/IBM will reach the 3 gig mark in one go.

It also may be a better marketing move to have a big jump rather than smaller incremental ones. The tech press would jump on that story. Me thinks a 3ghz G5 would even impress the most jaded PC journalist.
post #55 of 116
The sooner, the better... However, I'll stop being an optimist regarding new Power Macs. I'll rather look forward to an dual 2.2Ghz release 26th of March and get a happy surprise IF something better shows up then or earlier. It would be a good PR-trick to announce 3 Ghz now, but it should be announced when a lot of people are paying attention (MW expo etc) and it should be properly tested - not being rushed out on the marked.
post #56 of 116
Quote:
Originally posted by sls
The sooner, the better... However, I'll stop being an optimist regarding new Power Macs. I'll rather look forward to an dual 2.2Ghz release 26th of March and get a happy surprise IF something better shows up then or earlier. It would be a good PR-trick to announce 3 Ghz now, but it should be announced when a lot of people are paying attention (MW expo etc) and it should be properly tested - not being rushed out on the marked.

it doesnt need to be tested b/c its already in the xserves, so processor issues will already be straightened out. here's hoping for tomorrow!
post #57 of 116
Quote:
Originally posted by emig647
I'd have to agree that comparing Xserve to Powermac is apple vs. orange. Apple has always kept the powermac slightly faster then the Xserve. I find it extremely hard to swallow that apple is going to do a 1ghz jump. No one in history has done a jump that intense... such as 33mhz to 100mhz

know your history and math
a 1Ghz jump from a 2Ghz G5 to a 3 Ghz G5 is like from 66-100Mhz a clockspeed increase of 50%
apple did even more in 1994:
they jumped from the 40Mhz macintosh quadra 840AV to the 80Mhz power macintosh 8100. a clockspeed increase of 100%
(strangest thing about all this is that they reached the 40Mhz barrier in 1990 with the $10,000 macintosh II fx)
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post #58 of 116
I will go out on a limb here and say there will be no new hardware tomorrow.

post #59 of 116
i don't think they will release any updates soon either, i think they are focusing on the ipod mini's for the next few weeks. just look at the #'s from the last quarter of ipod sales. they make the cpu sales look so weak!
i'm staying in a holding pattern until the 90nm's come out......
post #60 of 116
Quote:
Originally posted by whoami
i don't think they will release any updates soon either, i think they are focusing on the ipod mini's for the next few weeks. just look at the #'s from the last quarter of ipod sales. they make the cpu sales look so weak!

the ipod was the ideal christmas 2003 gift. it's much easier to shell out $300 than $1,000 or even $3,000 on a cpu. and even those sales where up.
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post #61 of 116
Quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
I tend to agree that as time goes it looks likely that Apple/IBM will reach the 3 gig mark in one go. And if that is mid-March that puts Apple firmly ahead of their promise.


Lemon Bon Bon

LBB
What would be next if they did go to 3 gig in one step? I am not one to believe the conspiracy theories that Apple will sit on upgrades to make more money. But, would we expect to see the next generation PPC at the end of the year? Does that make sense? Release a 3 gig 970fx in March and then in the late Fall the Power 5 derivative comes out. Even if it doesn't have a much higher clock speed, the internal improvements will increase performance.

Just a thought.

Kurt
post #62 of 116
Quote:
Originally posted by Kurt
LBB
What would be next if they did go to 3 gig in one step? I am not one to believe the conspiracy theories that Apple will sit on upgrades to make more money. But, would we expect to see the next generation PPC at the end of the year? Does that make sense? Release a 3 gig 970fx in March and then in the late Fall the Power 5 derivative comes out. Even if it doesn't have a much higher clock speed, the internal improvements will increase performance.

Considering that the amount of development work to create the 970fx was very minor (it is almost literally just a process shrink, with only the addition of PowerTune... whatever that is), you do have to wonder what else IBM's processor design team has been up to. This fall will be about 18 months from the initial 970 introduction, which is a very reasonable timeframe to introduce a new processor.

I'm not sure its correct to say that the next 9xx series chip will be a "POWER5 derivative", although it may incorporate some POWER5 technologies (like SMT). I have a feeling that the development paths were forked and they will build on their previous work, occasionally bringing in elements proven by the POWER series. They may also have some of their own tricks to add to the mix.

IBM has a lot of room to make improvements... literally. The 970 is a small chip, with a mere 58 million transistors, compared the Prescott's 125 million on (roughly) the same process... a bit more than double. Even if they don't go to the same extreme as Intel has, there is obviously room for some serious additions.
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post #63 of 116
Quote:
Originally posted by Programmer


IBM has a lot of room to make improvements... literally. The 970 is a small chip, with a mere 58 million transistors, compared the Prescott's 125 million on (roughly) the same process... a bit more than double. Even if they don't go to the same extreme as Intel has, there is obviously room for some serious additions.

Okie-Dokie ... I'll pay the rent.

Stupid Question time.

Programmer, sir, I'm afraid I don't understand ... how can the PPC 970 be - more or less - as fast as Prescott, yet have less than half the transistors?

'splain?
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post #64 of 116
Quote:
Originally posted by OverToasty

Stupid Question time.

Programmer, sir, I'm afraid I don't understand ... how can the PPC 970 be - more or less - as fast as Prescott, yet have less than half the transistors?

'splain?

When chips are fabbed in an RDF, amazing things are possible.
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post #65 of 116
I'm thinking the next CPU in the PowerMac will be much higher than expected. Perhaps even 3.0GHz, and like Programmer said, a 3:1 ratio bus (1GHz). Now keeping in line with the present bus speeds, there may be 2.4GHz and 2.7GHz machines too. Hmm. But I think that Apple will use the same controller, and features, that the present machines have. A lot of engineering was put into the chipset, and it was made to last a while so effort could be placed on the next chipset that will probably have vastly superior features like DDR-II, Hypertransport 2, etc. I think the G5 feature set can take us well into 2004, until the fall or winter when the next gen G5 will debut. Remember the dark G4 days? Apple had to bolt on feature on feature to the G4 architecture just to make it competitive. The situation is different now with a modern chipset like the one the 970 has.
post #66 of 116
If that rumor about the Apple bigwigs turns out to be true. Then remember, I said dual 3Ghz G5 first!!!
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post #67 of 116
Quote:
Originally posted by OverToasty
Okie-Dokie ... I'll pay the rent.

Stupid Question time.

Programmer, sir, I'm afraid I don't understand ... how can the PPC 970 be - more or less - as fast as Prescott, yet have less than half the transistors?

'splain?

I could do some explanation about that, but I think the way to go would be Ars Technica. They have some explanations with regard to the processor design. They even have an article about 64-bit processors.
post #68 of 116
Isn't like half the transistors on the Prescott for cache? I could have sworn that I had seen that figure some place. So it isn't totally like 125 vs 58. Well it is, but not all 125 million transistors are for the Prescott core (but not all 58 million are for the 970 core...) Basicly what I am trying to say is that more transistors doesn't necessarily mean faster or more powerful.

It does mean more heat however
post #69 of 116
While this won't be the same explanation you may get from programmer the answer is rather simple it is the design of the processor. IBM was able to start with a clean slate so to speak with the 970 while Intel has been tied to the need to be backward compatible.

Intel simple has to support more functionality due to that compatiblity issue. There is also the issue of RISC and the CISC of the intel product. Intel has to support computational hardware to break up the instruction stream in to operations that the CPU executes. While the 970 does this to a minor extent the reality is that it is a simpler task on a risc based machine.

It took awhile but I think it is safe to say that Apple pridiciton about the capability of risc systems with repect to CISC is rather true. When applying state of the art technology to risc systems you can save about half your chip realestate. Apple now has the ability to scale the processors rather quickly by going to SMP on the chip. For the same cost (as in chip size and heat production) as the Intel hardware Apple could have twice the number of CPUs. This is a considerable advanatage if the can continue to move forward and advance well past the current intel hardware.

Dave

Quote:
Originally posted by OverToasty
Okie-Dokie ... I'll pay the rent.

Stupid Question time.

Programmer, sir, I'm afraid I don't understand ... how can the PPC 970 be - more or less - as fast as Prescott, yet have less than half the transistors?

'splain?
post #70 of 116
It just occured to me that next week on Tuesday the 17th is when iPod mini's are supposed to ship. Any possible Tuesday significane to that regarding PowerMac updates? I guess its completely possible, if not logical to conclude that the 17th may be a good ship off day and announcement day for new hardware.
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post #71 of 116
Well, no new hardware today.

Apple is keeping me good to my word when I said no new hardware this month.

iPod is king right now.
post #72 of 116
The San Fran flagship store is opening on Sat. the 28th. I'm betting we'll see a hardware update of some kind the Tuesday before.

Two more weeks then!
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post #73 of 116
Quote:
Apple now has the ability to scale the processors rather quickly by going to SMP on the chip. For the same cost (as in chip size and heat production) as the Intel hardware Apple could have twice the number of CPUs. This is a considerable advanatage if the can continue to move forward and advance well past the current intel hardware.

I wonder if this is the plan. If PPC can get to dual core before Intel, imagine the humiliation of a dual core G6 laptop emulating a desktop Prescott!? Same real estate but twice as fast and little cooler?

Dual core G5 vs any Prescott? Destroy!

Hmmm. Maybe M$ can smell the coffee on the PPC vs Intel front...(hence forray into Xbox 2 PPC land...)

Could be why M$ bought Virtual PC, because soon Apple users will be able to emulate any PC faster than a PC? Given dual core PPC next year? Then why not? People could buy a Mac and run their PC games quicker!!! When you get to dual core PPCs and the next year's graphics cards...are you really going to notice any difference between Macs and PCs? In their native environment, Macs will be blazingly fast...and in PC emu mode, lots quicker? I suppose this depends on IBM really pulling out the stops and Intel stalling. Well. Intel are having problems at the moment. With laptops showing the way...a dual core 17 inch laptop may make one hell of a games machine.

Well, the Pepsi promotion is still running...and it's going to run a little while longer...eh?

Y'know, I'm at risk of getting more fed up with the Pepsi store front than I did with purple and yellow man AOL thing...

Lemon Bon Bon
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post #74 of 116
Quote:
Considering that the amount of development work to create the 970fx was very minor (it is almost literally just a process shrink, with only the addition of PowerTune... whatever that is), you do have to wonder what else IBM's processor design team has been up to. This fall will be about 18 months from the initial 970 introduction, which is a very reasonable timeframe to introduce a new processor.

I'm not sure its correct to say that the next 9xx series chip will be a "POWER5 derivative", although it may incorporate some POWER5 technologies (like SMT). I have a feeling that the development paths were forked and they will build on their previous work, occasionally bringing in elements proven by the POWER series. They may also have some of their own tricks to add to the mix.

IBM has a lot of room to make improvements... literally. The 970 is a small chip, with a mere 58 million transistors, compared the Prescott's 125 million on (roughly) the same process... a bit more than double. Even if they don't go to the same extreme as Intel has, there is obviously room for some serious additions.

Providing grist for the rumour mill.

A few points. Was the G4 18 months or less after the G3?

Given a similar amount of time between the G5's debut and the arrival of a 'next gen' G5 chip...are we to be surprised if a G5 chip with Power 5 technologies hits by the Fall?

If Apple are serious about taking business from the PC platform then have to get really aggressive with performance in both hardware and software with compelling arguments.

What would a 'next gen' G5 offer? The rumoured 40% more performance per clock. I wouldn't expect the clock speeds to be greatly higher than the next Rev B. If Rev B is up to 3 gig? Then the Power 5 derived chip may offer speeds of 2.8-3.2 with better performance and bandwidth and power savings per clock. It may indeed be this chip that goes into the 'G5 Powerbook'. We may even get that hyperthreading thing.

It may even offer a 'game, set and match' altivec 2!!!

I'm dying to see how the G5 pans out this year...

Lemon Bon Bon
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post #75 of 116
Apple has been forced to do small updates for a long time now because of Mot. I would not be surprised if they went ahead and updated to 3Ghz in one revision. A 1Ghz Boost would create good press, and they would have an excuse to keep prices high which apple loves to do. However, if we see 3Ghz soon it means IBM has something else up their sleeves for the next release. mmmm What else do you think they will do with the G5? Just how fast will it go? 4Ghz? Who has some ideas?
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post #76 of 116
Quote:
Originally posted by Algol
Apple has been forced to do small updates for a long time now because of Mot. I would not be surprised if they went ahead and updated to 3Ghz in one revision. ...

Now when has Apple ever introduced anything that far ahead of stated objectives? When Steve Jobs says "by this time next year", or whatever he said, that's not exactly a commitment either. Given the history, how likely is it that 3GHz machines will be available off the shelf in an Apple store in late June 2004? 50%? 30%? It's quite possible we won't see those machines in calendar 2004 at all.
post #77 of 116
How insane is this? I remember years ago reading about how far behind Apple is from Intel. Now we are looking at beating the living snot out of them! I wonder what kind of sales Apple could get if IBM did manage to hit 4Ghz first? I know they have had 3Ghz chips running for a while, I think Steve was the one that said that. This means that they may have some 4ghz chips running somewhere.

dual cored 4Ghz G6, take 2 of those, slap them in a G6(update G5?) case and call it good. Mmmm equivalent of 4 processors running on 1 machine for the same price that you can get some good quality pcs... That could be the best thing that has happened to Apple since the iMac. Oh and stick one in every machine they make as well.

If Apple were once again to take the lead in the Ghz myth, I can see their market share increasing. I could also see a new speed war looming! Can we say P6 w/ a 50 stage pipeline!
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post #78 of 116
Quote:
How insane is this? I remember years ago reading about how far behind Apple is from Intel. Now we are looking at beating the living snot out of them! I wonder what kind of sales Apple could get if IBM did manage to hit 4Ghz first? I know they have had 3Ghz chips running for a while, I think Steve was the one that said that. This means that they may have some 4ghz chips running somewhere.

dual cored 4Ghz G6, take 2 of those, slap them in a G6(update G5?) case and call it good. Mmmm equivalent of 4 processors running on 1 machine for the same price that you can get some good quality pcs... That could be the best thing that has happened to Apple since the iMac. Oh and stick one in every machine they make as well.

If Apple were once again to take the lead in the Ghz myth, I can see their market share increasing. I could also see a new speed war looming! Can we say P6 w/ a 50 stage pipeline!

'Now we're looking at beating the living snot out of them.'

My favourite bit.

Nice post.

Lemon Bon Bon
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post #79 of 116
Quote:
Originally posted by tfworld
If Apple were once again to take the lead in the Ghz myth, I can see their market share increasing. I could also see a new speed war looming! Can we say P6 w/ a 50 stage pipeline!

I forsee an army of gamerz drooling. (Not from envy as much as blown circuits).

I forsee an Intel Prescott CPU shipping with a heatsink the size of a 57' Buick radiator.

I forsee AMD (with IBM's fabs) become Intel and Intel become AMD.

I forsee brainless industry "experts" still insisting Apple must switch platforms (despite even Microsoft's "switching" to the PowerPC).

I see all these things, but not increased market share for Apple. Sorry, but it's just not that simple.

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post #80 of 116
Now through February 28, 2004, buy any Mac and save $300* when you purchase Final Cut Pro 4 and DVD Studio Pro 2. Or save $150* when you purchase Final Cut Pro 4 and DVD Studio Pro 2. This offer is available only at participating Apple Authorized Resellers.
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