or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Software › Mac Software › Apple's asinine defaults cost me 1 year of emails.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Apple's asinine defaults cost me 1 year of emails.

post #1 of 35
Thread Starter 
Well, I guess because this has to do with Mail.crap it should go into Software.

A little back story. I have a folder set up in Mail.crap for all my AI email notifications and a rule to send them from my inbox into that folder. I usually select all the AI emails and trash them after I have read them all. By accident, I selected all of my inbox and moved it into the trash, then closed my laptop to go to a friends house without realizing that I had moved my inbox to the trash and not the AI folder. I opened up the laptop saw my inbox was empty and freaked. I checked my webmail account and found that the entire inbox there was empty too. I checked my trash and found 12 of the emails that used to be in my inbox.

A little later I checked my preferences to see if anything was screwy and found the reason that all my mail was gone. Mail.crap's default is to erase any email in the trash that is over a week old. I never changed it and now without a warning Mai.crap decided that I didn't really need all those emails.

This is what happens when the HIG are disregarded!
CARTHAGO DELENDA EST
Reply
CARTHAGO DELENDA EST
Reply
post #2 of 35
How is that disregarding the HIG, exactly?
post #3 of 35
That sucks. Had you backed up your /Library/Mail folder recently?
post #4 of 35
I think I see the problem. You've been using Mail.crap when you should have been using Mail.APP.
post #5 of 35
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan
How is that disregarding the HIG, exactly?

Because the default should never be a destructive option and anytime software is going to delete any of your information there should be a warning. This was stuff that Apple worked out 20 years ago.

And no, I hadn't backed up my email recently, so I am going to lose about 3 months of emails.
CARTHAGO DELENDA EST
Reply
CARTHAGO DELENDA EST
Reply
post #6 of 35
Quote:
Originally posted by HOM
Because the default should never be a destructive option and anytime software is going to delete any of your information there should be a warning. This was stuff that Apple worked out 20 years ago.

And no, I hadn't backed up my email recently, so I am going to lose about 3 months of emails.

How was your problem caused by Mail.app's default behavior. You did a lot of work in preparation for your mail's deletion. If you don't want mail deleted, then don't put it in the trash. And if you do, then take responsibility for your own actions.
post #7 of 35
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Me
How was your problem caused by Mail.app's default behavior. You did a lot of work in preparation for your mail's deletion. If you don't want mail deleted, then don't put it in the trash. And if you do, then take responsibility for your own actions.

I see what he is saying. Yes, he had to delete the items. But the default behavior should be some sort of a warning that a destructive action will occur. In Mail.app, there is no warning when putting an item in the trash or when emptying on a schedule. There *is* a warning if you manually delete the messages.

Personally, I'm not sure where I stand on this issue. I hate excessive dialog boxes but I understand the need for a destructive behavior to give warning (as it does in the case of a manual emptying of the trash). Either way, it sucks to be HOM right now. :/
post #8 of 35
Quote:
Originally posted by kim kap sol
I think I see the problem. You've been using Mail.crap when you should have been using Mail.APP.

orange you just glad?
Reply
orange you just glad?
Reply
post #9 of 35
There is an answer, and I'm afraid it is Entourage.
post #10 of 35
I think the ultimate lesson learned here is to backup your data.

Price of lesson: One year's worth of email.

There is never a good reason why you should lose that much data, because you should be backing up weekly at the least.
post #11 of 35
did you have mail in your inbox that was being stored on the server?
post #12 of 35
The UI answer to these things is easy, allow destructive actions to be undoable. If it is not possible to undo, then you have to confirm the action.

In this case, mail shouldnt empty the trash automatically.

However, you can often generalise that when people make mistakes they often realise straight away. Mail should keep a 'secret' ( doesnt show up in the trash ) that allows you to undo an empty trash command.

The normal finder trash should do this as well.
But, basically, the whole point of the trashcan IS to be the UNDOABLE middle ground between there, and gone. Automatic trash deletion is wrong.
post #13 of 35
I have gobs of email in my hotmail account that I'd like to save and keep, is there any way to do this easily?
orange you just glad?
Reply
orange you just glad?
Reply
post #14 of 35
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by LoCash
I think the ultimate lesson learned here is to backup your data.

Price of lesson: One year's worth of email.

There is never a good reason why you should lose that much data, because you should be backing up weekly at the least.

I know. Because it was an IMAP account, I assumed that the mail on the server would act as a back-up. I have had to reinitialize the hard drive and fire up Mail.crap to have all the emails come back. I just had no idea that it would delete them.
Quote:
Originally posted by alcimedes
did you have mail in your inbox that was being stored on the server?

Yup all the email was stored on the server too, but I guess that when Mail.crap deleted it, it synced up with the server and did the same.

I do understand that I was a dumb ass for not having a back-up. I did move the emails into the trash by accident and that's why the default behavior should not be destructive. Accidents happen, but the software should not punish me for it. Time to listen to mrmister and move to Entourage.
CARTHAGO DELENDA EST
Reply
CARTHAGO DELENDA EST
Reply
post #15 of 35
Yes, though Entourage also likes to corrupt its megadatabase every once in a while, so be careful there, too.

People are jumping on HOM way too quickly--sure, he should have backed up, blah blah blah. But that is a *stupid* default behavior, and as others have said, autodeletion w/o an inicator is bad default behavior.
post #16 of 35
Well, I at least agree, it is a stupid default behaviour. I also backup regularly, even mail from my IMAP account. A tape drive is a wonderful investment
post #17 of 35
The default behavior should be to delete something that's been in the trash for a week, not something that's a week old. I thought that's what mail did, so maybe something different happened on your machine.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
post #18 of 35
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
The default behavior should be to delete something that's been in the trash for a week, not something that's a week old. I thought that's what mail did, so maybe something different happened on your machine.

The default behavior should never be destructive regardless of how long it has been in the trash. Based on the option, I can't really tell what it is basing the week on.


Although it has to be mail that is older then 7 days because the mail was only in the trash for about 2 hours and the only messages that survived were ones sent in the last week. Oh, and the check next to "never" is because as soon as I found this feature, I disabled it.
CARTHAGO DELENDA EST
Reply
CARTHAGO DELENDA EST
Reply
post #19 of 35
Quote:
Originally posted by LoCash
I think the ultimate lesson learned here is to backup your data.

Price of lesson: One year's worth of email.

There is never a good reason why you should lose that much data, because you should be backing up weekly at the least.

I dunno I would have thought it is just check the prefs. I mean when I start using any app that's the very first thing I do especially in an email program where you actually have to set up the accounts yourself...
"When I was a kid, my favourite relative was Uncle Caveman. After school, wed all go play in his cave, and every once and awhile, hed eat one of us. It wasnt until later that I discovered Uncle...
Reply
"When I was a kid, my favourite relative was Uncle Caveman. After school, wed all go play in his cave, and every once and awhile, hed eat one of us. It wasnt until later that I discovered Uncle...
Reply
post #20 of 35
it's easy.

it's saying "delete e-mails in the trash that are over a week old"

this behavior is common practice because otherwise you end up with users who have a 500MB mailbox on the mail server, of which 400MB is stuff in the trash they never emptied.

mail.app did exactly what it was supposed to. just like every other mail program that has an option to delete messages stored on the server.
post #21 of 35
HOM, you can get all of your email back.

Pretty much any mail server keeps backups so if you make a request to the administrator of the server your IMAP account is on, they can recover all of your email from their backups. That's why it is smart to leave important data on servers managed by IT groups. They do all the work of keeping regular backups for you.
post #22 of 35
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by rrabu
HOM, you can get all of your email back.

Pretty much any mail server keeps backups so if you make a request to the administrator of the server your IMAP account is on, they can recover all of your email from their backups. That's why it is smart to leave important data on servers managed by IT groups. They do all the work of keeping regular backups for you.

Well I get my email from Dot Mac and having been in contact with them there is no way to get my emails back. Apple's official policy is not to store any copies of your mail outside of you individual mailbox for privacy reasons. So the emails have gone the way of the Dodo. On the bright side, I'm not the only one that is having issues with Mail.crap's default setting. About 1/3 of all the posts in the Mail.crap Dot Mac support forum are related to emails being deleted by accidently being transfered to the trash.

This is why the destructive behavior should never ever be the default behavior and should always be accompanied by a warning message.
CARTHAGO DELENDA EST
Reply
CARTHAGO DELENDA EST
Reply
post #23 of 35
ya know, it isnt mail.app's fault you dragged your inbox into the trash.
post #24 of 35
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by ipodandimac
ya know, it isnt mail.app's fault you dragged your inbox into the trash.

Right, but it is Mail.crap's fault that the default behavior is destructive which is what I have been saying this entire time.

*sigh*
CARTHAGO DELENDA EST
Reply
CARTHAGO DELENDA EST
Reply
post #25 of 35
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Me
How was your problem caused by Mail.app's default behavior. You did a lot of work in preparation for your mail's deletion. If you don't want mail deleted, then don't put it in the trash. And if you do, then take responsibility for your own actions.

hes absolutely right, it's a stupid default option..stop being such a fanboy for 10 minutes and realize it
post #26 of 35
Quote:
Originally posted by HOM
The default behavior should never be destructive regardless of how long it has been in the trash. Based on the option, I can't really tell what it is basing the week on.


Although it has to be mail that is older then 7 days because the mail was only in the trash for about 2 hours and the only messages that survived were ones sent in the last week. Oh, and the check next to "never" is because as soon as I found this feature, I disabled it.

I have never adjusted the setting on my mail.app, and it has always been set to "never" (just checked the settings). Apparently that was the default setting...at least on this copy of "Mail".
post #27 of 35
Quote:
Originally posted by HOM
Right, but it is Mail.crap's fault that the default behavior is destructive which is what I have been saying this entire time.

*sigh*

I'm kind of inclined to agree hat it's your fault here. You need to set up the mail account and yet you didn't bother to click through 2 tabs to ensure your configurations were right. Apple shouldn't have it set that way but it's still ultimately your fault. Take some responsibility or God help you when you have to actually deal with some less intuitive and more complex interfaces or even one that requires a little attention to detail.
"When I was a kid, my favourite relative was Uncle Caveman. After school, wed all go play in his cave, and every once and awhile, hed eat one of us. It wasnt until later that I discovered Uncle...
Reply
"When I was a kid, my favourite relative was Uncle Caveman. After school, wed all go play in his cave, and every once and awhile, hed eat one of us. It wasnt until later that I discovered Uncle...
Reply
post #28 of 35
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Telomar
I'm kind of inclined to agree hat it's your fault here. You need to set up the mail account and yet you didn't bother to click through 2 tabs to ensure your configurations were right. Apple shouldn't have it set that way but it's still ultimately your fault. Take some responsibility or God help you when you have to actually deal with some less intuitive and more complex interfaces or even one that requires a little attention to detail.

Well, I didn't have to set anything up. Panther's set up assistant set up my dot mac account for me when I entered the proper info. I do take responsibility for my actions like I said many times above, I made a mistake and I didn't have a recent back up. But as I also said above, if Apple's default followed good UI design my mistake would not have been so damaging.

Like I also said above the Dot Mac message board is full of people in a similar situation. This is why the default behavior should never be destructive. Software should not punish a user for making a mistake.

I don't get why this is so controversial. I fücked up, I get it. Does that absolve Apple from making lousy software?
CARTHAGO DELENDA EST
Reply
CARTHAGO DELENDA EST
Reply
post #29 of 35
Quote:
Originally posted by HOM
I don't get why this is so controversial. I fücked up, I get it. Does that absolve Apple from making lousy software?

It's not lousy software because you ****ed up. I'd almost be inclined to say it's technically lousy UI design to have the trash hold anything at all, since it is the trash and all. But, it should at least mimic the desktop trash, or simply use it instead of a trash that's Mail only.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
post #30 of 35
Quote:
I have never adjusted the setting on my mail.app, and it has always been set to "never" (just checked the settings). Apparently that was the default setting...at least on this copy of "Mail".

I second that mine was set to never as well.
"Slow vehicle speeds with frequent stops would signal traffic congestion, for instance."

uh... it could also signal that my Mom is at the wheel...
Reply
"Slow vehicle speeds with frequent stops would signal traffic congestion, for instance."

uh... it could also signal that my Mom is at the wheel...
Reply
post #31 of 35
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Mr Beardsley
I second that mine was set to never as well.

Are you running Panther and if so did you upgrade or do a clean install from Jaguar? I would be interested to know if the default in Jaguar was set to never, but the default in a clean install of Panther was set to one week.
CARTHAGO DELENDA EST
Reply
CARTHAGO DELENDA EST
Reply
post #32 of 35
Quote:
Originally posted by HOM
Does that absolve Apple from making lousy software?

Well the point is it isn't so much that the software is lousy as much as that one setting is stupid. I'm yet to find any piece of software that doesn't have at least one flaw.
"When I was a kid, my favourite relative was Uncle Caveman. After school, wed all go play in his cave, and every once and awhile, hed eat one of us. It wasnt until later that I discovered Uncle...
Reply
"When I was a kid, my favourite relative was Uncle Caveman. After school, wed all go play in his cave, and every once and awhile, hed eat one of us. It wasnt until later that I discovered Uncle...
Reply
post #33 of 35
The defaults in panther are :Sent - never, Junk - never, Trash - one week.

reg
post #34 of 35
except from an IMAP perspective, it makes perfect sense to delete week old messages in the trash.

too many people keep hundreds of megs in their trash because they're too ignorant or lazy to actually delete messages in the trash.

although i do think it would be a nice option if there were a massive move of files to the trash that were about to be deleted to have a confirmation box.

it would solve both the over filled IMAP servers as well as taking car of the accidental deletion problem.
post #35 of 35
If I were you I wouldn't have done that Just playing man that sucks\ It is a bad idea to have that as a default. It's understandable to have it to that but it should give a warning with a possibility to check (don't show this again) or whatever...although I don't really like that clutter either, but sometimes it's needed I guess.

I do think that it should delete email in the trash folder that have been there over a week not just over a week old. Is there anyway to change this?

**switches to mail and changes it to never**
0 People Found This Reply Helpful
Reply
0 People Found This Reply Helpful
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Mac Software
AppleInsider › Forums › Software › Mac Software › Apple's asinine defaults cost me 1 year of emails.