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macminute has a post about the 970 at 2.5 coming friday

post #1 of 88
2/13/04 at 5:21am
Thread Starter 
http://www.macminute.com/2004/02/13/powerpc

macminute never has rumors...i would say this nails it, but we shall see soon


g

i especially like this line in the cnet article:

To make the new PowerPCs, IBM is combining layers of silicon on insulator (SOI) and strained silicon. Together, the two technologies allow manufacturers to improve energy efficiency or performance: They can either make processors that run as fast as current models but consume far less power; or they can produce chips that use the same amount of power but run at higher clock speeds


fast, hotter chips in the PM
slower, cooler chips in the PB??
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post #2 of 88
2/13/04 at 5:25am
Well, IBM should be announcing something today.

I thought it was going to be next week though.

I am sure Apple has hardware ready to go, just waiting on a stockpile of CPU's.
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post #3 of 88
2/13/04 at 5:27am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by msantti
Well, IBM should be announcing something today.

I thought it was going to be next week though.

I am sure Apple has hardware ready to go, just waiting on a stockpile of CPU's.

announcing today, describing next week is how i read it

g


bring on the faster PMs
bring on the new iMac G5
wait a little longer for the G5 PB??
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post #4 of 88
2/13/04 at 6:05am
strange logic.

Because MacMinute links to a CNet article doesn't make it more true.

The fact that CNet reports it stands a little more on its own than random site... but even so, it looks like CNet just copied it from the microprocessor report guy

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...threadid=38155

The big news appears to be IBM's announcement.
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post #5 of 88
2/13/04 at 6:14am
Forbes is now reporting in an article titled,"IBM says new chip-making method boosts performance". Strained silicon, hmmmm, very interesting. Note this article explicitly is discussing the IBM 970FX which is, according to at least one post on Arestechnica, is shipping.

Combined with the SoC comment from the Manager of IBM's ASCI Division, things are beginning to look up for Apple. Low power, very fast, northbridge. At least the iMac may be upgraded soon with a G5? possibly a Powerbook? and my hope a headless iMac
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post #6 of 88
2/13/04 at 6:26am
Ahhhh, very good!

I am getting a dual G5 here at work whenever the second generation is announced. Whoot!

My G4/500 is feeling kinda slow.
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post #7 of 88
2/13/04 at 6:53am


Quote:
"...said Richard Doherty, research director at Envisioneering. Given the chip's reduced need for power, which means longer battery life, Apple may consider it for use in a notebook computer for gaming enthusiasts, Doherty said.

"It's logical that Apple would select the flexibility of this chip for a next-generation notebook computer," Doherty said."

notebook computer for gaming enthusiats
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just waiting to be included in one of Apple's target markets.
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post #8 of 88
2/13/04 at 7:05am
If IBM are going to present more details of the 970fx at that conference next week they will give cpu speeds for people to drool over.. so that means apple will announce the new g5's before that.

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post #9 of 88
2/13/04 at 7:09am
Quote:
Originally posted by gsxrboy
If IBM are going to present more details of the 970fx at that conference next week they will give cpu speeds for people to drool over.. so that means apple will announce the new g5's before that.


Maybe, maybe not, I believe IBM published a pdf describing the 970 long before Apple announced they were going to use it. This is a little different, in that Apple is now using the G5, but at least food for thought.
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Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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post #10 of 88
2/13/04 at 7:17am
Thread Starter 
forbes breaks it

click age for you all


g
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post #11 of 88
2/13/04 at 7:19am
If only they did release a G5 Powerbook next week as well... I know, highly unlikely, but pretty soon I will have my money saved up for a new Powerbook and will be sitting on it until they at least speed bump the current line, but I may be inclined to wait until they put a G5 in it. Selling my Cube in a week or two, so I could be macless for awhile. Ahh the pain.
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Powerbook G4 12" 1.33ghz, 60gig hd, 1.25 gigs ram.

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Powermac G4 "Sawtooth" 400 mhz, 80gig hd, 384mb of ram, Rage 128 Pro graphics.
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post #12 of 88
2/13/04 at 7:27am
What most people here seem to be missing (and this is really jaw-dropping) ist that IBM seems to have succeeded in implementing SOI on strained silicon (SSOI) about one full year ahead of schedule. This speaks volumes about their ability to implement high-end processes.

In the light of this announcement, the MS XBOX2 switch to PPC seems much more likely.
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post #13 of 88
2/13/04 at 8:14am
IBM tends to overestimate things quite a it. It's not surprising that they delivered promised technology early. However, the fact that they delivered it a full year ahead of time is.

It's also cool because we know Intel has been having a hard time ramping up Prescott and getting to 90nm. I'm sure in a few years that IBM will be far ahead there.
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post #14 of 88
2/13/04 at 8:37am
Quote:
Originally posted by gsxrboy
If IBM are going to present more details of the 970fx at that conference next week they will give cpu speeds for people to drool over.. so that means apple will announce the new g5's before that.


Maybe not, IBM has delivered faster speeds than they anounced in the past so they wont neccessarly announce the fastest chip they have.
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post #15 of 88
2/13/04 at 8:48am
A Register article includes this insight into the strained silicon process at IBM:

"Now, where IBM differs from Intel is in the use of silicon-on-insulator (SOI), which conveniently aids the implementation of strained silicon. As it announced last September , IBM removes the SiGe layer before fabrication, after applying the strained silicon onto the insulator. The upshot: it gains benefits of strained silicon using what is essentially its standard SOI process. By removing the SiGe layer, it doesn't have to integrate that material into the chip fabrication process per se. It calls the new technique, Strained Silicon Directly on Insulator (SSDOI)."

The full article is at:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/35556.html
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post #16 of 88
2/13/04 at 9:47am
And everyone was getting their panties all in a bunch!
Upgrades are coming and they're coming soon

4-11 days, I reckon
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post #17 of 88
2/13/04 at 10:10am
Good! Something needs to replace those idiot Pepsi bottles on the homepage. Ugh!

Ugliest/tackiest Apple's site has looked in a while. Not to mention, kinda boring and "so what"? It was old and tired within two days of the Super Bowl.



At this point, I'll take anything as long as it changes the homepage. A picture of Phil mowing his yard would be cooler than those bottles.
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post #18 of 88
2/13/04 at 11:52am
Quote:
Good! Something needs to replace those idiot Pepsi bottles on the homepage. Ugh!

Ugliest/tackiest Apple's site has looked in a while. Not to mention, kinda boring and "so what"? It was old and tired within two days of the Super Bowl.



At this point, I'll take anything as long as it changes the homepage. A picture of Phil mowing his yard would be cooler than those bottles.



Lemon Bon Bon
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post #19 of 88
2/13/04 at 12:01pm
Hmmm, I'm pleased at the vast reduction in chip size and power use.

However, with a chip controller running at upto 1.4 gig, surely we could be seeing 2.8 gig 970fxs?

And surely at that speed they'd still be far off the cheynobal heat signature of Prescott..?

Is the system controller holding back the 970 fx higher speed grades?

2.5 is a nice bump. That's an extra 1 gig extra over the current dual 2 gig. And you get extra bandwidth.

But I was kinda hoping for 2.6 or 2.8.

Still, it's very exciting news. It really puts it to Intel and AMD. IBM is running the Pentium 4 down. At 2.5 gig, we're only 700 mhz behind! A year ago? Apple was 1.6 gig behind!!! That's one hell of a claw back. Steve was right when he said Apple would make up the ground and close the gap.

And aren't AMD dependent on IBM for the 0.09 process? Aren't AMD only set to deliver the 0.09 by 2nd half 2004?

I read Intel have put back the 4 gig Prescott to early 2005! If Apple can deliver 3.2 gig Power 5 derived 970fxs by September and Intel are stuck on 3.6 gig...then the gap is closed to 400mhz! Astounding if it comes to pass! Then you got the system bandwidth.

The G5 is going to be the Pentium 5 slayer!

Lemon Bon Bon
We do it because Steve Jobs is the supreme defender of the Macintosh faith, someone who led Apple back from the brink of extinction just four years ago. And we do it because his annual keynote is...

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post #20 of 88
2/13/04 at 12:04pm
Another point. What might be the ace in the pack is not only the 970 fx but the IBM compilers recently launched!

Could we be seeing 30-40% improvements as Apple recompile 'X' for 10.4? Adobe recompiling Photoshop? Newtek recompiling Lightwave?

It's this that maybe intrigues me the most... I'd love to see IBM finally rundown those Intel compilers that fix the benchmarks in Intel's favour. Apple can say, 'Okay, we used the best Intel compilers...so we used the best IBM compilers for our chip...and guess what...'

Apple had a news item on their site about it a while back...but it's gone surprisingly quiet on that front...

Lemon Bon Bon
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post #21 of 88
2/13/04 at 12:13pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon

....If Apple can deliver 3.2 gig Power 5 derived 970fxs by September.....

That doesn't excite me as much as the possibility of a dual core and on die memory controller. Dual G5's @ 3.0GHz., each being dual core with an on die memory controller, hmmm. Low end single G5's with single core for iMac's, Powerbooks and eMacs and the oft' mentioned/desired headless iMacs.
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Don't get me wrong, I like the flat panel iMac, actually own an iMac, and I like the Mac mini, but...........
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post #22 of 88
2/13/04 at 12:30pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
'Okay, we used the best Intel compilers...so we used the best IBM compilers for our chip...and guess what...'

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post #23 of 88
2/13/04 at 2:10pm
No doubt, I changed my homepage because I can't STAND looking at Apple.com right now.

Ugliest goddamned page they've ever had.
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post #24 of 88
2/13/04 at 2:38pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
Hmmm, I'm pleased at the vast reduction in chip size and power use.

However, with a chip controller running at upto 1.4 gig, surely we could be seeing 2.8 gig 970fxs?

And surely at that speed they'd still be far off the cheynobal heat signature of Prescott..?

Is the system controller holding back the 970 fx higher speed grades?

2.5 is a nice bump. That's an extra 1 gig extra over the current dual 2 gig. And you get extra bandwidth.

But I was kinda hoping for 2.6 or 2.8.

Still, it's very exciting news. It really puts it to Intel and AMD. IBM is running the Pentium 4 down. At 2.5 gig, we're only 700 mhz behind! A year ago? Apple was 1.6 gig behind!!! That's one hell of a claw back. Steve was right when he said Apple would make up the ground and close the gap.

And aren't AMD dependent on IBM for the 0.09 process? Aren't AMD only set to deliver the 0.09 by 2nd half 2004?

I read Intel have put back the 4 gig Prescott to early 2005! If Apple can deliver 3.2 gig Power 5 derived 970fxs by September and Intel are stuck on 3.6 gig...then the gap is closed to 400mhz! Astounding if it comes to pass! Then you got the system bandwidth.

The G5 is going to be the Pentium 5 slayer!

Lemon Bon Bon


Sorry to say but Dell is taking orders on notebooks that have either a 3.4ghz prescott, or a 3.4ghz extreme edition chip. that is a notebook.
http://catalog.us.dell.com/CS1/cs1pa...650&l=en&s=dhs

I am trying still to find out if the 3.4's are shipping yet, I only found 4 places with a boxed version listed. Two said call, the other two would let me order and said nothing about delayed shipping. So now if I add that up correctly, in 14 months Intel has moved up a whole 400mhz in CPU speed and 267mhz in FSB. Intel has had a bad year.
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post #25 of 88
2/13/04 at 2:43pm
Quote:
Originally posted by oldmacfan
Sorry to say but Dell is taking orders on notebooks that have either a 3.4ghz prescott, or a 3.4ghz extreme edition chip. that is a notebook.
http://catalog.us.dell.com/CS1/cs1pa...650&l=en&s=dhs


at 9+ lbs and 2" thick - that is NO notebook, hehe (:

shipping mid to late March from the looks of it.
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post #26 of 88
2/13/04 at 2:49pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Conner
at 9+ lbs and 2" thick - that is NO notebook, hehe (:

True, but Apple needs to drop the bomb and end this game.
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And if the night runs over
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It's just a moment
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post #27 of 88
2/13/04 at 4:02pm
Quote:
Originally posted by oldmacfan
True, but Apple needs to drop the bomb and end this game.

That's just empty rhetoric. Dell won't surrender just because Apple excells at industrial and technical design. If that was the case then Dell would have caved a long time ago. Apple having a faster laptop won't scare Dell either. Dell competes more with HP, Gateway and no-name brands, than does it with Apple. And Dell's preffered means of competing isn't design or even power. Dell competes with price. Something that Apple, for the most part, doesn't.
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post #28 of 88
2/13/04 at 7:20pm
Quote:
Originally posted by KANE
That's just empty rhetoric. Dell won't surrender just because Apple excells at industrial and technical design. If that was the case then Dell would have caved a long time ago. Apple having a faster laptop won't scare Dell either. Dell competes more with HP, Gateway and no-name brands, than does it with Apple. And Dell's preffered means of competing isn't design or even power. Dell competes with price. Something that Apple, for the most part, doesn't.

Not Dell giving up but Apple customers. The PB's are getting too far behind. I bought a PB because it was better than anything I could get on the PC side for the same money. That gap is closed, The PB's look too expensive for what you get comparred to similar priced items on the PC side. I am ready to replace my PB, but I will not replace it with two year old technology at premium prices.
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And if your way should falter
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And if the night runs over
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post #29 of 88
2/13/04 at 8:57pm
This is really exciting!!! What would realistically hold Apple back from dropping a low-power chip into the PowerBooks? I mean, it seems they've built up the PB infrastructure for this since the introduction of the new aluminum chassis last year.

C'ommon PowerBook G5...C'ommon PowerBook G5....C'ommon PowerBook G5! (Hmm...haven't seen Spaceballs in a while, which was actually the first movie I watched on *this* PowerBook).
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"Be entirely tolerant or not at all; follow the good path or the evil one. To stand at the crossroads requires more strength than you possess."

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post #30 of 88
2/14/04 at 5:23am
Quote:
Originally posted by fred_lj
This is really exciting!!! What would realistically hold Apple back from dropping a low-power chip into the PowerBooks?

What holds them back? Hmm, let's see: (1) contract(s) with Motorola--do we know anything on this? All Apple machines have still G4, except one (well, two), after what, 7-8 months from the G5 introduction; (2) stock of G4 processors--again, what do we know? (3) the feeling (in Apple's part) that the Powerbooks are powerful enough and doing well against the competition. Isn't surprising that Apple still reports the performance of the Powerbooks in Quake? What about compare the most powerful Powerbook with the most powerful Athlon-64 or P4@3.4GHz PC laptop in UT2004? Not that it is a fair comparison, but I want simply to say that Quake fps are pointless today (not so of course if we compare with previous generation Powerbooks), and the fact Apple still insits is an indication that they don't get right the performance gap between Powerboks and powerful PC laptops.

It could be whatever from the above, and even something more escaping now my attention, even if a G5 Powerbook is technologically realistic right now.
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post #31 of 88
2/14/04 at 6:35am
Quote:
Originally posted by PB
What holds them back? Hmm, let's see: (1) contract(s) with Motorola--do we know anything on this?

I doubt Apple would feel obliged to stick to this contract in light of Moto's obvious inability to fulfil their part (G4's have not seen a major revision since about 2 years). They'd rather contest the thing in court.

It could also be a marketing decision - reportedly their PowerBook sales have skyrocketed 93% over the last 12 month. We here may think they are outdated and behind their time, but obviously a lot of customers think different. Apple could want not to fuel the desktop-notebook transition even more because their manufacturer might not be able to ramp up production even faster. Or their margin on a G4 PowerBook (with "old" CPU, mainboard and ASICS that have long been paid for) could be higher than on a G5 PowerBook even if this would sell for a premium. So they could have decided to milk the G4 PB design for one last round while sales are high before refreshing the line.
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post #32 of 88
2/14/04 at 8:38am
Stop comparing the PowerBooks to machines based on the latest Athlon64 or high clock rate P4 processors. Those machines are not the target market Apple is after -- the power consumption and heat issues limits their true usefulness. If you want to compare the PowerBooks to something look at the latest Centrino machines.
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post #33 of 88
2/14/04 at 10:41am
Quote:
Originally posted by Programmer
... If you want to compare the PowerBooks to something look at the latest Centrino machines.

Yes, and that's the problem. The latest Centrinos are starting to look pretty good in comparison to the Powerbook.

ThinkPad X Series
from
$1,349.00
IBM_Web_Price*
Ultimate mobility in a versatile ultraportable

Starting at 2.7 lb2 and less than 1" thin
Available with Microsoft®_Windows®_XP
Long standard battery life up to 7.5 hours6 (select models)
Integrated IBM 11a/b/g Wi-Fi®_wireless10 (select models)
Supports optional IBM ThinkPad UltraBase for easy expansion
Select models available with Intel®_CentrinoTM_mobile technology


I have an older ThinkPad T20 and have been impressed with it's build quality and general reliability, even W2K on it has been reliable for it's limited usage, so this is what Powerbooks are up against in the market.

The only reason a Powerbook will be my next purchase is OSX.
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post #34 of 88
2/14/04 at 11:14am
does this mean new powermacs soon?????
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post #35 of 88
2/14/04 at 11:49am
Its the OS! Those who want to run MacOS buy Macs and those brainwashed by MS buy one of the Wintel offerings.
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post #36 of 88
2/14/04 at 3:28pm
Quote:
Originally posted by rickag
my hope a headless iMac

You dare ask for that again? It happened once, and Apple bit the bullet on it. It was called the cube. Everybody cried about a headless Mac. Apple Gave them one, and not enough sold. Bottom line. Forget it. If I were Apple I wouldn't make that mistake twice.
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post #37 of 88
2/14/04 at 3:50pm
  • Leonis
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Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
You dare ask for that again? It happened once, and Apple bit the bullet on it. It was called the cube. Everybody cried about a headless Mac. Apple Gave them one, and not enough sold. Bottom line. Forget it. If I were Apple I wouldn't make that mistake twice.

It was the high price + low performance that killed the product
Mac Pro 2.66, 5GB RAM, 250+120 HD, 23" Cinema Display
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Mac Pro 2.66, 5GB RAM, 250+120 HD, 23" Cinema Display
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post #38 of 88
2/14/04 at 4:00pm
Apple did not attempt to gain market share with the Cube. What they tried to appeal to was that segment of any market that is always willing to pay to much for a prodcut so as to feed their ego. The cube was not marketed as a low cost machine, nor was it a machine that would appeal to people looking for reasnable performance for their computing dollar.

Apple simply has not delivered what its users have been asking for for some time now. The Cube failed for the same reason that the IMac is failing now. It is not a question of people not wanting a small form factor machine - small form factor is the hottest segment of the PC market right now - it is a question of wanting good value for your money. When Apple can deliver such a machine they will sell like hot cakes.

Apples mistakes from my perspective are simply a matter of being out of touch with part of their customer base. To address that issue they need to look at what people want for them and to find a way to deliver it at a reasonable price. Many people have no need for a PowerMac and its expense, find a way to deliver 95% of the compute performance of a single processor PowerMac in a low cost design and it will sell.

Dave


Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
You dare ask for that again? It happened once, and Apple bit the bullet on it. It was called the cube. Everybody cried about a headless Mac. Apple Gave them one, and not enough sold. Bottom line. Forget it. If I were Apple I wouldn't make that mistake twice.
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post #39 of 88
2/14/04 at 4:25pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Leonis
It was the high price + low performance that killed the product

Let me add "it was the high cost". Apple couldn't price it low enough versus the towers because of the cost. I bought one a few months ago, and it's beautiful! The FP iMac is a little like the cube - they are costly to produce, thus their price. If there is a new "Macintosh", I hope it is priced less than the PowerMac. Ives needs to come up with a beautiful low cost design, that can produce a high profit margin Macintosh with a G5 that is <$1000, with at least an upgradeable graphics card.
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post #40 of 88
2/15/04 at 11:00am
soooo...tuesday, then?
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