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I like this Biden fellow  

post #1 of 18
2/14/04 at 5:43pm
Thread Starter 
The New Yorker

Why don't we hear more voices such as his from the Left!?
Your arguments are to reality what the La Brea tar pits were to mammals.
Your arguments are to reality what the La Brea tar pits were to mammals.
post #2 of 18
2/14/04 at 7:39pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Blue Shift
The New Yorker

Why don't we hear more voices such as his from the Left!?

yes

why, then are we letting Afghanistan languish and slip back into its fractured state . . . ?

Why did we embark on a foolhardy endevour that so many people saw right through and that was gauranteed to take our resources away from rebuilding and securing Afghanistan?
When the price of failing to do so would be the spawning of even more taliban adherents and the sure as rain alienation from the rest of the muslim world . . .who are, even now, holding up their arms and saying: "look, you invaded this country supposedly to liberate them and eradicate the Taliban but it really looks like you merely wanted to establich a toehold and let the people continue to suffer"

good quotes from that article:
Quote:
The President [Bush} talks of a Marshall Plan for Afghanistan at the Virginia Military Institute in April, 2002, and then he fails to include any dollars for Afghanistan in his 2004 budget proposal; the President gives a landmark speech at the American Enterprise Institute in February, 2003, proposing a democratic Iraq as a model for the transformation of the entire Middle East, and within two months the Pentagons minimalist planning for postwar Iraq has that country in chaos, its state institutions gutted, its people demoralized; the State Department sets out to improve public diplomacy in the Islamic world, then puts the campaign in the hands of Charlotte Beers, a Madison Avenue executive, who produces a slick video about Muslims in the United States that is widely ridiculed; the Administration vows to get tough on Saudi sources that finance terrorism and the spread of extremist ideology, then suppresses the section of a congressional report on September 11th having to do with Saudi Arabia; after the Iraq war the President vows to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, only to stand aside a few months later.

Quote:
The President speaks idealistically of spreading democracy around the world. [ . . . ] Since Bush took office, favorable views of America have plunged globallyespecially in the Muslim world.

Quote:
n Turkey, our secular Muslim nato ally, favorable opinion of the United States fell from fifty-two per cent three years ago to fifteen per cent last spring.

That's a decent article

. . . did you read the whole thing? . . . its surprisingly liberal of mind for you to post favorably . . .
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

post #3 of 18
2/14/04 at 7:39pm
Right, Delaware is very progressive. Biden is very popular here, I have voted for hime several times.
post #4 of 18
2/14/04 at 9:18pm
Good article. Balanced, giving both Parties a good smack.

Points of interest:
  • Since Vietnam, the Dems have had no foreign policy (other than defaulting to the UN).
  • The neocon thinkers wrongfully see militant Islamists as an extenstion of Cold War era totalitarianism.(1)
  • For the love of... will somebody please fire Rummy:
    Quote:
    Peacekeeping is a dirty word at the Rumsfeld Pentagon: its peacekeeping division was renamed the Office of Stability Operations, and its importance was downgraded, even after war created the need for such an operation in Afghanistan and then again, on an even larger scale, in Iraq.

  • Nice:
    Quote:
    As Lakhdar Brahimi, th former United Nations envoy to Afghanistan recently told the Times, There is now a very well-meaning and welcome Western interest in supporting democracy everywhere, but they want to do it like instant coffee.

  • Quote:
    Success can come only over a period of years, mainly by finding local groups and helping them do what they already want to do.



BTW, the quotes above are not from Biden, but the article's author George Packer.

(1) They aren't. There's no nation, no army. They're cultist. There's more of Jim Jones than Joe Stalin to Bin Laden's ideology.

Screed
MWSF '07: Steve Jobs hates my wallet and my mobile carrier.
MWSF '07: Steve Jobs hates my wallet and my mobile carrier.
post #5 of 18
2/14/04 at 9:53pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
yes

why, then are we letting Afghanistan languish and slip back into its fractured state . . . ?

Why did we embark on a foolhardy endevour that so many people saw right through and that was gauranteed to take our resources away from rebuilding and securing Afghanistan?

What are you hoping to achieve in Afghanistan? 95% of the population doesn't even have a grade 2 education. I think we've done all we could have done with Afghanistan. We deposed the Islamocists there, but the place is lost cause in term of development money. Better to save the funds for future military contingency in the area. Look at the waste of funds sunk into Russia. Same applies here, but even more so.


Anyway. It is a long article. And if the author(s) found it in their heart to say some charitable words regards to left (after all, tiz a lefty magazine if I'm not mistaken) however erroneous, it should not detract from the main thrust of the article: In treating the war on terrorism as a mere military struggle, the Administrations mistake begins with the name itself. Terrorism is a method; the terror used by the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka is not the enemy in this war. The enemy is an ideologyin the German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischers phrase, Islamist totalitarianismthat reaches from Karachi to London, from Riyadh to Brooklyn, and that uses terror to advance its ends.




Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam

When the price of failing to do so would be the spawning of even more taliban adherents and the sure as rain alienation from the rest of the muslim world . . .who are, even now, holding up their arms and saying: "look, you invaded this country supposedly to liberate them and eradicate the Taliban but it really looks like you merely wanted to establich a toehold and let the people continue to suffer"


I don't give a shit about alienating the Islamic word. Like I don't give a shit about alienating the communist world. And neither should you. When are going to understand that it's a zero sum game?! This has proven itself true during the Iraq war when Turkey refused the Americans the Northern flank to attack Iraq and allowed Iraq's WoMD to slip into Syria. In fact, my suspicion is that all our Islamic "allies" are all playing a double game, the most obvious being Pakistan, Saudia, Egypt and Jordan. The enemy is Islam. I know your liberal sensebilities would be offended by me saying so. So let me rephrase it. The war is on the followers of a certain 7th century Arab pedophile and the fascist totalitarian ideology they hold sacred. How's that?


PC^KILLA
Your arguments are to reality what the La Brea tar pits were to mammals.
Your arguments are to reality what the La Brea tar pits were to mammals.
post #6 of 18
2/14/04 at 10:15pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Blue Shift
I don't give a shit about alienating the Islamic word.

Then you missed the whole point of the article
and you apparently posted with regards to it before you even read it.

and now that you signed it it all makes sense . . .
and I now know why it all sounded so familliar
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

post #7 of 18
2/14/04 at 10:25pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
Then you missed the whole point of the article
and you apparently posted with regards to it before you even read it.

and now that you signed it it all makes sense . . .
and I now know why it all sounded so familliar


Obviously I gave you too much credit.

First Rule of Fight Club: never talk about Fight Club.
Your arguments are to reality what the La Brea tar pits were to mammals.
Your arguments are to reality what the La Brea tar pits were to mammals.
post #8 of 18
2/14/04 at 10:33pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Blue Shift
In fact, my suspicion is that all our Islamic "allies" are all playing a double game, the most obvious being Pakistan, Saudia, Egypt and Jordan. The enemy is Islam. I know your liberal sensebilities would be offended by me saying so. So let me rephrase it. The war is on the followers of a certain 7th century Arab pedophile and the fascist totalitarian ideology they hold sacred. How's that?


PC^KILLA

Hoo boy, How to be a Dick 101. It's the very belief that the West is against Islam is what is driving these middle class twenty-somethings into the terrorist camps. Your hhhhhhorrible attitude smacks of that dim stick Coulter: invade them all and convert them to Christianity.

The fight is against poverty and a history completely lacking any democratic impulse. Most religions have been used to push a totalitarian state, bub. Crack open a textbook. Read. Think!

All in all. this article reflects what I thought in the weeks after 9/11. We're not combating a nation or political movement but a mindset. However, we can't expect, by whatever means, a Western democracy to sprout up over there.

Screed
MWSF '07: Steve Jobs hates my wallet and my mobile carrier.
MWSF '07: Steve Jobs hates my wallet and my mobile carrier.
post #9 of 18
2/14/04 at 10:37pm
I have a strong dislike of the Totalitarian ideology of Islamicists and I understand that they are real and a real and constant threat to be battled

So?!

What does tht have to do with our bad handling of post-war Afghanistan?
What does that have to do with the truth spelled out in that article which states that Bush's policy of Foriegn Affairs through military rather than through military as a political weapon?

Just because the Islamicists are knuckling down doesn't mean that we should give the general Muslim population more reason to see our bungling actions as some kind of proof in favor of the Islamicist world-view.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

post #10 of 18
2/14/04 at 10:42pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by sCreeD
Hoo boy, How to be a Dick 101. It's the very belief that the West is against Islam is what is driving these middle class twenty-somethings into the terrorist camps. Your hhhhhhorrible attitude smacks of that dim stick Coulter: invade them all and convert them to Christianity.

The fight is against poverty and a history completely lacking any democratic impulse. Most religions have been used to push a totalitarian state, bub. Crack open a textbook. Read. Think!

All in all. this article reflects what I thought in the weeks after 9/11. We're not combating a nation or political movement but a mindset. However, we can't expect, by whatever means, a Western democracy to sprout up over there.

Screed


Sorry. But you're wrong.

Islam is an imperialist totalitarian movement bent on world domination. Always has been, and always will be. If you can't see that, you've got your head buried in the sand.
Your arguments are to reality what the La Brea tar pits were to mammals.
Your arguments are to reality what the La Brea tar pits were to mammals.
post #11 of 18
2/14/04 at 10:50pm
yes . . it all comes back to me now:

PC Killa = an Israeli, ultra right wing fascist anti-fascist who would gladly shove every muslim in the ovens himself

yep . . that's why your rhetoric sounded so familiar

Why do you come here?
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

post #12 of 18
2/14/04 at 10:52pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
I have a strong dislike of the Totalitarian ideology of Islamicists and I understand that they are real and a real and constant threat to be battled

So?!

What does tht have to do with our bad handling of post-war Afghanistan?
What does that have to do with the truth spelled out in that article which states that Bush's policy of Foriegn Affairs through military rather than through military as a political weapon?

Just because the Islamicists are knuckling down doesn't mean that we should give the general Muslim population more reason to see our bungling actions as some kind of proof in favor of the Islamicist world-view.


The policy should be: Leave them invest in their own future. But let them clearly understand what such an investment in Islamicism will mean. I'm sure the rest will follow.
Your arguments are to reality what the La Brea tar pits were to mammals.
Your arguments are to reality what the La Brea tar pits were to mammals.
post #13 of 18
2/14/04 at 10:52pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Blue Shift
Sorry. But you're wrong.

Islam is an imperialist totalitarian movement bent on world domination. Always has been, and always will be. If you can't see that, you've got your head buried in the sand.

That's funny! Let's play with that:

Quote:
Originally posted by 11th century Muslim
Sorry. But you're wrong.

Chrisitianity is an imperialist totalitarian movement bent on world domination. Always has been, and always will be. If you can't see that, you've got your head buried in the sand.

Quote:
Originally posted by Linux Geek
Sorry. But you're wrong.

Microsoft is an imperialist totalitarian movement bent on world domination. Always has been, and always will be. If you can't see that, you've got your head buried in the sand.

Quote:
Originally posted by Burger King Training Manual
Sorry. But you're wrong.

McDonalds is an imperialist totalitarian movement bent on world domination. Always has been, and always will be. If you can't see that, you've got your head buried in the sand.

I could go on for days... Look, I'm no Muslim, nor do I agree with what their beliefs do to the average Middle East citizen, but you come off as incredibly pigeonholed into your own beliefs.

The millions of Muslims out there are not "under the gun" in the style of Castro or Stalin. They. Just. Aren't.

Screed
MWSF '07: Steve Jobs hates my wallet and my mobile carrier.
MWSF '07: Steve Jobs hates my wallet and my mobile carrier.
post #14 of 18
2/14/04 at 10:56pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
yes . . it all comes back to me now:

PC Killa = an Israeli, ultra right wing fascist anti-fascist who would gladly shove every muslim in the ovens himself

yep . . that's why your rhetoric sounded so familiar

Why do you come here?


Because it's fun. Why do you?
Your arguments are to reality what the La Brea tar pits were to mammals.
Your arguments are to reality what the La Brea tar pits were to mammals.
post #15 of 18
2/14/04 at 10:59pm
Here's something more progressive found from Atrios. An effort to translate American classics, including the works of Jefferson, into Arabic.

Screed
MWSF '07: Steve Jobs hates my wallet and my mobile carrier.
MWSF '07: Steve Jobs hates my wallet and my mobile carrier.
post #16 of 18
2/14/04 at 11:00pm
I guess I get pleasure in amiable discussion . . .
but not spreading the hate around . . . that seems like wallowing in bitter indegestion

I want to avoid misery and an ulcer . . .
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

post #17 of 18
2/14/04 at 11:14pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by sCreeD
That's funny! Let's play with that:







I could go on for days... Look, I'm no Muslim, nor do I agree with what their beliefs do to the average Middle East citizen, but you come off as incredibly pigeonholed into your own beliefs.

The millions of Muslims out there are not "under the gun" in the style of Castro or Stalin. They. Just. Aren't.

Screed


Maybe so. But then I lack your distance from this issue. Still, how far can you ran away from it? There's now almost not a place in the world that's not affeted by it.
Your arguments are to reality what the La Brea tar pits were to mammals.
Your arguments are to reality what the La Brea tar pits were to mammals.
post #18 of 18
2/15/04 at 1:48am
Time to close this thread.

It's not fun for us to see you trolling this thread again .
The staff will decide of your fate.
Until this your privileges are revoked (you where supposed to be ban forever)
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