Over one thousand married queers in San Fran.... - Page 3  

Uh, basically whatever?!?

My aunt and uncle have been openly gay since the 60's. They aren't institutionalized, imprisoned nor even poor.

But you keep conjuring up windmills to attack, ok?

Nick

Just ....

Another prejudice has fallen...

[OT]
No, he is a friend of mine from around where I live, we're different people.
[/OT]

i guess your aunt and uncle are one of the lucky ones then. good for them. the point is that persecution, in it's many forms, does happen, and happens frequently to people because of their sexual orientaion. according to you, being gay must be all bubblegum and roses.

So Matthew Shepard just tripped, right?

I'm glad for your aunt and uncle. I guess the experiences of two people "out since the 60's" are emblematic of the treatment of homosexuals in all corners of the globe in the past couple of centuries, since this was the quote that I was referrring to:


You just keep coming up with insignifigant examples of your personal experiences to try to prop up your arguments, okay?

Isn't it amazing how I don't know a single homosexual who has ever had trouble with the law or even a career due to their sexuality. That must be because, well a whole lot of people don't even ask about it.

I also find it humorous that pfflam speaks of my experience in the past tense. I don't study music at a university any more. But that really shouldn't matter should it since gay people are in all walks of life. Sure they are more likely to congregate in certain cities and fields but I didn't just stop encountering them because I finished college as he suggests. Last I checked I was still a landlord, still an elementary school teacher and still had the same family.

Maybe my aunt and uncle aren't lucky. Maybe people just really aren't that interested in someone's sexuality if it isn't shoved in their face. By that I mean that if I don't care what you do in the privacy of your bedroom, you take care not to get in my face with it. Be you male, female, gay , lesbian or straight. If I want to know, I'll ask.

Nick

If you consider Matthew Shepard to be convincing or even a trend you are wrong.

I could be beat down by a couple of men tomorrow. They could cruelly beat me to death for whatever hateful reasons they care to conjure. The difference is my death wouldn't be front page news because I happen to be a white heterosexual male.

There are people killed everyday for all sorts of reasons. In fact take a look at this FBI Hate Crime Report. It shows that more hate crimes for anti-white than for homosexuals. It also shows many more crimes both for race and religion.

BTW as an interesting side note the "intolerant" state of Texas had fewer hate crimes overall and per capita than the very "tolerant" state of Massachussetts.

Perhaps Pfflam will have to put away the Southern twang and start practicing his "boston-ese" accent.

Nick

Marriage Video Clip

It's Real Video but it is a pretty good clip mentioning many of the points discussed here. Plus if you watch it you can supress your gag reflex at... gasp... Fox News.

Nick

Barney Frank makes a good argument against the federal effort.

It might also be because discrimination in those two categories would be flagrant. In Northampton, MA, a local journalist was invited to spend one day with a lesbian woman, dressed in similar clothing. The harassment was all hostile stares and whispered hate speech and threats in passing, but it was real enough that the journalist couldn't sleep for days afterward.

Cases like Matthew Shepard are rare because most of the harassment consists of attempts by cowards to scare away people they don't want around, not anything that is likely to register on a police report or be subject to a workplace investigation.

And yes, this does happen even in "enlightened" places - that was the point of the invitation above, actually, to prove that even one of the towns rated most friendly toward gays and lesbians can be hellish - and it certainly happens north of Mason-Dixon. Though I suspect that the statistic you cite in a subsequent post is skewed by the fact that it can only track reported crimes, and anti-gay discrimination is far more likely to be reported in a town that's perceived as generally sympathetic.


That's the best case. Your aunt and uncle are quite lucky if they get to enjoy that circumstance, based on what I know.

Well Amorph, again the FBI showed about 1300 crimes for around 250 million people in 1995. (We are pushing 300 million now.)

I don't call those bad odds. If I want hard stares, I'll just drive home since you can get plenty of those in traffic. You've also yet to address how forcing homosexual marriage on the general populace would somehow end these perceived hard stares or whispered hate speech. In fact how can you legislate an end to such things? You can't.

People get hard stares or whispers all the time. It could be because someone doesn't like you writing a check at the supermarket. It could be because you take too long at the ATM machines. I assure you that in an age where all you have to lose sleep over is a hard stare, that is a good thing, no matter what your gender.

BTW, anyone who is a parent gets used to plenty of hard stares thanks to the wonderful joy that children bring into the world.

Nick

As to the "rule of law," the idea that there is either Absolute Respect for the Rule of Law or Total Anarchy is a fallacy of the excluded middle at best, and one that ignores the principles the American government was built around.

The lawmaking process is not perfect, as we all know. That's why the courts have the power to strike them down. But the only way to contest a law in court is to break it and argue that the "illegal" action shouldn't be. Judges can't make those decisions proactively.

In other words, civil disobedience is built into the system as part of the lawmaking process. If Americans were to simply sit back and accept whatever gets rammed through the relevant legislatures and Congress they would be abandoning their role in the lawmaking process, and breaking the system.

To paraphrase a certain wise man, the law exists for man; man does not exist for the law.

perhaps them gay people just know they aint wanted down here Texas way

ever thank O thayt pardner?!

Hell, we'da make life uh livn hayull for um sissee boyz . . . . yayez we-uld!

GET IT?!


but seriously, you still don't answer why you care?

Hmm?!?!

wyzat Trumpt?

your kids yell and scream at you in public?

I wonder why?

We (my family) always seem to get weepy eyed glazed smiles of lovin appreciation and super-goodness

I didn't say my children yell and scream at me nor anyone else in public. As for the weepy eyed glazed smiles, it sounds like you have your kids doped up.

My children are very nice but are just entirely too bright for their own good. Suppose you and I were having a picnic at the park with said respective families. You leave your car keys on the table because, being the homophobe you are, you don't like getting poked by long sharp objects in your lower torso.

My two year old would wait until no one is looking, snag your keys, open your car door (yes even if it is locked), get in, lock the door, and likely start the car.

They get lots of loving stares right up until they start honking your car horn at you, I assure you.

My four year old, well he is four which pretty much sums it up. Pretty much take anything he cares to say and repeat it at least 5 times. It seems all four year olds do this and it is intensely annoying. So while you and I are coaxing my 2 year old son out of your now locked car, he would be telling you that the two year old loves keys. (5 times) He loves cars (5 times). He likes your car (5 times) Can he go for a ride in your car? (5 times) Can we go to your house and type PBSkids into your computer so he can play it... (5 times)

Such intellect has to be directed, not subdued.

Nick

This is a truly bigoted post pfflam

As a native Texan I do take offense to this.

I hope you can refrain from this style of posting.

Fellows

As a native-born Texan, I 100% support Pflamm's characterization of this backwards, Jesus-freak encrusted, hateful former-slave state. There is nothing socially redeeming about Texas, or the South at large. A haven of hatred and prejudice, all wrapped up in the leather cover of a Bible.

For the record I will say that in viewing the Fox news clip provided by Trumptman I find John Cornyn of Texas to be a bigot in regard to gay marriage and / or gay civil unions. In fact I find John Cornyn to be more than simply a bigot in this regard, I find him to be a sellout to a portion of the population (narrow minded control freaks who want to dictate others relationships) over standing up for civil rights of gay individuals. I conversly find Barney Frank of Mass to be right on and well spoken with this issue.

I also completely understand your frustration Kirkland in this heated debate going on in the United States concerning a right that I firmly believe you should have to attain marriage if you were to choose to.

My point in calling pfflam on his post was simply this:

Let me illustrate:

Do all blacks eat watermelon and fried chicken as their two food groups?
Should we think of asians only as "slant-eyed" people?
Are Bostonians all rude by default?
Do all Arabs want to kill westerners?
Are all Blondes dumb?

I could go on and on..... I wish not to with all due respect.

My point is that in each statement above a negative connotation is expressed in a general sense as to bind all members of given "group" as defined by bigoted and misguided hate speech.

I stand by your side of this issue Kirkland and indeed I stand for dignity and respect for all human beings.

Bigotry no matter where it is directed is misguided and people with a spine will point it out.

Am I suggesting we can not have jokes and good humor? No not at all.

I am only suggesting we stay semi-civil as we all deserve dignity not just some.

With complete respect,
Fellows

This isn't true at all. You don't have to broadcast your sexuality in order for your same sex partner to not get health insurance.

I hate to admit that the stereotypes in this thread all except one comes from posters from "my side" of the fence.

This has been a long thread with a lot of good arguments. I would hate to see it degenerate.

To a degree, I do agree with you. I would say the difference I disagree with in this instance is the fact that it is the government officials themselves who are engaging in the civil disobedience. I find absolutely nothing wrong with the various homosexual couple repeatedly going in, asking for marriage licenses and then suing because they cannot get one. If they were to be arrested for asking, I would not think them wrong in being arrested for their cause. If they held a protest, or even held a sit-in at city hall blocking access to the office of marriage licenses claiming that if they can't get married, no one should, and were peacefully acting, and peacefully arrested for doing so, I would think no wrong of them.

So that is an awful lot of civil disobedience I endorse. What I don't endorse is government ignoring it's own laws. That sets a very bad precident in my opinion.

Nick

First of all this is changing, even without homosexual marriage. It would change with civil unions. It is also changing at the request of cohabitating heterosexual couples.

My own married partner isn't guaranteed health insurance. I do have the option of putting her on my plan but I must pay to do so. If I didn't have the money, she wouldn't have the health insurance.

The issue of health insurance affects everyone, not just homosexual couples.

Nick

You are a sad, hateful man. When you keep sending out so much hate, I'm not surprised that plenty of it keeps coming back to you. We all reap what we sow and you sow plenty of hate.

Since you so liken the homosexual rights debate to civil rights, perhaps you can follow the advice of Dr. King.


Fellowship is a white, male, heterosexual Christian living in Texas. You and Pfflam have projected nothing but hate at what you perceive him to be. You've not directed the hate directly at him, just at what he happens to be.

You should choose to hate the people directly oppressing you, not some stereotype. Additionally, you shouldn't hate at all since that will just justify their reasoning. You must find a way to love them.

Nick

Guantanamo Bay.

Kirkland, i would avoid blanket statements like that even if the mojority of texans are ignorant and hateful in this regard. just about everyone i know and work with here in dallas are very open/excepting/tolerant of the gay community, especially towards this particular issue. not everyone's a redneck.

Yes, how dare I expect to be treated equally under the law. Or to not have the religious mores of fundamentalist nonsense sects used as reasons to keep folks such as myself in a limbo of second-class citizenship.

Just like childish Rosa Parks who wanted to sit in the front of a bus.

hey, Trumptman brought up the idea of taking on an accent

Sure its over-the top

But then again he was also the one who called the state of Texas "intolerant" I am illustrating that if it is true that it is intolerant then there may be a reason that there seem to be fewer Hate crimes there
For instance there are probably fewerr hate crimes in Wyoming per capita now because I am sure that either gay people keep it quiet or they move the heck away as fast as possible . . . perhaps to climes that they imagine will be more supportive

My Ex-girlfriend has cousins in Texas and they sit around the dinner table and grill her on what it is like to live in "Soddom" where they literally expect it to go up in God-blessed flames of judgement anyday now
and guess what, they think that it would be the right thing . . . THEY WANT IT TO HAPPEN!!

I might sound biggotted to think the following, but I don't think that her cousins are that out of the ordinary for Texas

BTW, she ended up living there (outside of Denton) for three years while she went to music school, and felt, in her words, as if she was "living on Mars where there isn't a person that I could simply talk to for hundreds of miles around", you see, she is a practicing Buddhist . . . she would probably get rocks thrown at her if she let it be known too (as happened to another Buddhist friend who briefly lived in Mossourri - -rocks thrown at her house, everyday until she moved, after she talked about her beliefs to a person in the public library) . . . (which may speak more aout her than Texas though)


By the way Trumpt: could you please explain your post about your kids . . . it makes no sense to me at all>>> what is this about prodding and homophobia?
And the glassy stares of lovin are from other people not my kid . . . besides that whole post was just a joke . . . I thought it was obviouse . . .

The timing on this is so horrible... its going to make conservative voters come out in throngs... whether its wrong or right, laws are enacted by the majority.

I dissagree . .

I worked out at the local WMCA today . . and there were a bunch of stodgy old men . . I mean OLD . .. obviouse WW2 vets . . some even had their old Marine Tattoos . . . and they werre talking about it and all of them were saying: let em do it, it aint hurtin nobody

I think when Grover originally said that this would bite back for Bush in the election I think that he was right . . . I think more people than might expect are thinking: "SO WHAT?! who does it hurt?"

Kirkland dude you have texas all wrong.. its a fairly democratic state... first female gov, one fo the longest held quorum democratically. Tho right now yeah its a little wierd, its not at all what you say it is, nor was it ever. Except maybe East Texas jk

A whole lot of those crimes go unreported or don't necessarily get classified as hate crimes.

Beating up gays is a hobby to large groups of people, including Texas (violence in the 90's around montrose & westheimer, for instance).

BTW: you can't trust crime stats at all, especially ones from big cities.

Texas is a Republican state, and trending both more Republican and further to the right. Richards was the last gasp of a moderately Democratic electorate which has since collapsed into right-wing fanaticism, sending folks like John Cornyn and Pete Sessions to Washington as homegrown politicos viciously redraw the lines to deny even majority-Democratic areas a Congressional voice.

hehe I'm sure the far right is blowing a gasket over this! love it!

I'm Hetero and married (...happily waiting for a mini-me ;-)

I fully support Gay Marriage.

Marriage is about Love, and should not be a privilege.

For centuries, homosexuality was ignored. Now that it's fully recognised, there is not ANY reason to refuse the best to two person who love each other.

Next step is adoption. (which is also something that's all about love ;-)

In Europe, and particularly in France we have 'PACS' (there's already a thread about that). A civil union that gives any couple, Gay and Heteros the same civil (and fiscal) rights. It's a first step, and it's a huge success here ;-)

But it's an option for heterosexuals, not homosexuals. This issue doesn't affect everyone equally and as long as businesses can decide they'll offer care for marriages and not civil unions it will continue to be an equal rights issue.

BTW, that is absurd . . . I feel warm good feelings for Fellowship . . .he started out on these boards as a punching bag but ended up showing people that he is genuine, warm and good hearted

He also has opened up some since coming aboard, and, well, geez, I like the guy

Now this stereotype was just that, and it should be obviouse . . . if it isn't then maybe you harbor fears of its truth
but, cliches become cliches not because they pinpoint a truth but because they are a form of simplifying a common predjudice
Some predjudices come about because of the repetition of the reality of the issue in question . . . others grow out of ulterior motives (most hate based predjudices are the latter)
Anyway . . . I would bet that my stereotyping is a little of both instances: "intolerance" repeated throughout history forming a stereotype of the Texas redneck pick-up truck driver who drags African Americans around for fun, and, a little redneck bashing based on my sinful bigotry . . .

now of course Texas is not all rednecks . . . . and that is obviouse as well . . .. heck, Hiouston even has an up-and coming art scene . . . with real artists, not just a Thomas Kincaid Gallery in the mall . . pompous arse smirck worthy of a smack