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The Passion of the Christ

post #1 of 513
Thread Starter 
Star Wars was marketed with toy light sabres (I had one) and with Darth Vader figurines.

Harry Potter with fake glasses and wizard hats.

Mel Gibson's upcoming The Passion of the Christ with nails, of course,
and mugs!



I've just been to the website. For a film that prides itself on its historical accuracy it's kind of annoying that Jesus and Mary are both white, but hey.

Anyway.

Discuss!
post #2 of 513
Thread Starter 
For those who ain't acquainted, Mel Gibson's new film is shot entirely in Aramaic, an extinct language that used the Hebrew script, and subtitled. In America and in Europe, Jewish bodies have spoken out against it, saying it takes a too-hard line on Jewish responsibility for the Crucifixion and could even be anti-Semitic.

Mel Gibson is a member of an orthodox Christian sect I don't have time to look up now because I'm meeting my brother for lunch and must run.
post #3 of 513
He belongs to the "I Hate Jews" sect. Just kidding. Some anti-Vatican Catholic splinter group or whatever. He's a nutjob either way.
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post #4 of 513
Quote:
anti-Vatican Catholic

Excuse my ignorance but wouldn´t that be a contradiction?
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #5 of 513
Nope.
The second vatican council is somewhat controversial and lead to the splinter group of which gibson (and his father) are part.
post #6 of 513
Yeah, I think I've heard about enough of this story for the past year.

I don't know about the BBC, or whatever, but in the States this has been beaten to damn death.

Not that I care that you posted about it. I didn't know about the merchandising. That's actually a pretty cool necklace. Too bad I'm an atheist. Maybe I can get one and say it's to scare off vampires. Or Jews. Cause I hate them damn Jews.
post #7 of 513
Quote:
Originally posted by Ganondorf
Yeah, I think I've heard about enough of this story for the past year....

I second that, these talking heads havnt even seen the movie yet (outside of a few rabies and a talk-radio host), so why are they trashing it?
You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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post #8 of 513
Mel Gibson's father dismissed the Holocaust as being 'mostly fiction'.

Am I gonna catch this movie when it hits the cinemas, you ask?

No!

http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/...her/index.html
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post #9 of 513
Quote:
Originally posted by KANE
Mel Gibson's father dismissed the Holocaust as being 'mostly fiction'.

Am I gonna catch this movie when it hits the cinemas, you ask?

No!

http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/...her/index.html

salon? wow thats believable
You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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You can't quantify how much I don't care -- Bob Kevoian of the Bob and Tom Show.
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post #10 of 513
I think it's pretty well-known in the news world that Gibson's father is a Holocaust denier.
post #11 of 513
Guys, we all know that this can turn ugly soon, so before it happens, remember, IT"S JUST A MOVIE, why people make such a big deal out of it...?

KANE, Look at this quote from that article:
Quote:
Hutton Gibson follows a tiny wing of traditionalist Catholicism that views the modernizing reforms of the Second Vatican Council as a conspiracy between Jews and Masons to take over the church.

Or this:

Quote:
In this latest interview, Gibson said Jews want to take over the world. He did not know why Jews would want to achieve that, but said ``it's all about control. They're after one world religion and one world government.''

Do you really think that this is true?

Mel Gibson can direct his movie in any way he likes. Same goes for any Jewish director, do you think that Schindler's List was historically accurate?

truth always lies somewhere in the middle.
Let's not get too carried away
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post #12 of 513
Quote:
Originally posted by Ganondorf
I think it's pretty well-known in the news world that Gibson's father is a Holocaust denier.

Hey i don't think he denies it, he's opinion is that Jews make it bigger than it actually was.
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What contemptible scoundrel has stolen the cork to my lunch? _(W.C. Fields)
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post #13 of 513
Gibson's father does deny the Holocaust, but Mel does not. Mel has the perception that the Jews blame Catholics for the Holocaust because the Vatican didn't denounce it at the time.

Mel Gibson is an ultra-conservative Catholic. I believe he is a member of Opus Dei, a Catholic group that does not follow the teachings of the Vatican II or the pope. One could think of him something like a 'fundamentalist Catholic', which is very different than any other 'fundamentalist Christian'.

The movie (from my understanding) is based heavily on the Gospel of John. The Gospel of John is the fourth Gospel of the New Testament. It was written by a Gentile (as opposed to Mark, Matthew, and Luke who were Jews) at a time when Christianity diverged from Judaism. There is a certain amount of anti-Jewish sentiment in the Gospel of John as it reflects the tensions between Christians and Jews at the end of the first century.

That being said, I'm uncertain if anyone could tell the story of the Passion without some in the Jewish community feeling offended. Some Jews are very easily offended whenever anyone brings up the notion that they put Christ the death while some Christians will use this as fodder for their anti-Semetic views.

The truth is that the actions of the Jewish leadership did coerce the Romans to put Christ to death because Jesus threatened their power. This by no means puts the onus on the entire Jewish race for Christ's death.
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post #14 of 513
Yes but to punish the son, who may be guilty of Shoa-denial, with evidence against his father is shaky. They are not the same person, however close-minded they may really be. There is no tangible evidence against the son... except being guilty by association.

However repulsive the father may be, I can't allow myself to condem the son without evidence they are alike on these matters.
Matvei


"they want to be on 'God's' good side; they want to be saved; want 70 virgins, or raisins, or whatever . . ." -Pfflam
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Matvei


"they want to be on 'God's' good side; they want to be saved; want 70 virgins, or raisins, or whatever . . ." -Pfflam
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post #15 of 513
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
For those who ain't acquainted, Mel Gibson's new film is shot entirely in Aramaic, an extinct language that used the Hebrew script, and subtitled. In America and in Europe, Jewish bodies have spoken out against it, saying it takes a too-hard line on Jewish responsibility for the Crucifixion and could even be anti-Semitic.

Just a quick point: Aramaic isn't extinct - it is widely spoken in parts of Iraq and I have often attended Aramaic mass in the village of Ma'lula near Damascus in Syria, The whole of this village are Christians who speak the same dialect of Aramaic as that spoken by Christ, it is very interesting to investigate their Christianity also which differs widely from the 'decaf' western hellfire versions. It is far more mystical and obviously closer to Jesus' original thought,
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #16 of 513
Quote:
Originally posted by piwozniak
Hey i don't think he denies it, he's opinion is that Jews make it bigger than it actually was.

Actually, you are correct.
post #17 of 513
I can't add anything more to this discussion, Rogue Master's post was especially encapsulatory of my own feelings about this topic. Some other good posts in here as well, civil posts about those who feel that Gibson has ulterior motives. I do not see these motives myself, but can't speak for the man. I personally value the friendships that I have with my Jewish friends and believe that my Faith is fitted squarely atop theirs.

My only criticism of the film's production would be that I think they stopped short of their goal when they hired caucasian actor to play Christ. Jim Caviezel just completed work on a little film shot primarily here in Atlanta (1 week in Scotland) called "Stroke of Genius: The Bobby Jones Story"....yes, he played Bobby Jones. He often flew out of town to speak to various religious organizations, very active in his own church. So anyone who sees the film might consider that he wasn't just doing it for the paycheck.
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post #18 of 513


All I got...

I AM THE Royal Pain in the Ass.
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I AM THE Royal Pain in the Ass.
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post #19 of 513
All I can think of after seeing the nail necklace for sale is...




I want a t-shirt that says "I got nailed at Golgotha".

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post #20 of 513
When did "Jesus" become the son of god historically?
post #21 of 513
Quote:
Originally posted by billybobsky
When did "Jesus" become the son of god historically?

Didn't they start with that business about 100 years after he died? That was around the time the virgin birth was snuck in anyway.
post #22 of 513
Bizarre. That would make the timing of the schism with Judaism more logical.

I really do not understand why people cannot see that this and all sorts of other religious teachings are utter crap -- not their moral sentiments but the back story behind them.
post #23 of 513
Actually, the back story generally has a kernel of reality in it... it's when the story hits smack dab up against the desire to force something down people's throats that it starts to need to be embellished.

Sales marketing, you know.
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post #24 of 513
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
All I can think of after seeing the nail necklace for sale is...




I want a t-shirt that says "I got nailed at Golgotha".


you are soooo going to hell...


g
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it's all fun till somebody loses an eye
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post #25 of 513
do you really think Rebecca (or was it Rachael) was at a well when (whatever the name of her husband was) saw her and fell in love?
post #26 of 513
Quote:
Originally posted by thegelding
you are soooo going to hell...


g

Yes, but I'll have all of you to keep me company!
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post #27 of 513
Well, I for one can't wait to see the movie. I am a big Roman history buff and think that the occupation of Judea is one of the most interesting periods of time. Also the movie is not entirely in Aramaic, it's in Latin too Oh, Gibson's father is a nut job and Mel is only slightly less of a nut job and the Jews didn't kill Jesus, the Italians did.
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post #28 of 513
Quote:
Originally posted by piwozniak
Hey i don't think he denies it, he's opinion is that Jews make it bigger than it actually was.

I gaurantee that you don't take it as BIG ENOUGH!!

it is impossible to concieve of, and retain a sense of such systematic and routinized murder on such a grand scale (all of Europe) where a whole infrastructure was calculated in minute detail simply to irradicate an entire people from the planet . . .
, not simply to irradicate them, but also to squeeze every last possible worth out of them: through slave labour (but fed only enough that they could be worked to death) through appropriation of property, through medical testing, through various body part reappropriation.

Also, I would dare say that Schindler's list is most likely a VERY FAR CRY more historically accurate than any film Gobson has made . . . look at Braveheart . . . a TOTAL travesty of teh history portrayed!!

I gaurantee that you don't know the half of the horror of the Shoa and neither does Gobson!!

. . . that dispicable prick!
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--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

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--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #29 of 513
then again, how many people did Stalin systematically murder? i thought it was something over 9 million.
post #30 of 513
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
I gaurantee that you don't take it as BIG ENOUGH!!

it is impossible to concieve of, and retain a sense of such systematic and routinized murder on such a grand scale (all of Europe) where a whole infrastructure was calculated in minute detail simply to irradicate an entire people from the planet . . .
, not simply to irradicate them, but also to squeeze every last possible worth out of them: through slave labour (but fed only enough that they could be worked to death) through appropriation of property, through medical testing, through various body part reappropriation.

Also, I would dare say that Schindler's list is most likely a VERY FAR CRY more historically accurate than any film Gobson has made . . . look at Braveheart . . . a TOTAL travesty of teh history portrayed!!

I gaurantee that you don't know the half of the horror of the Shoa and neither does Gobson!!

. . . that dispicable prick!

pfflam, i said it was his father's opinion not mine,

And i'm polish and believe me i know what a concentration camps look like.
There are more atrocities in our history. not only Jews were killed there you know, ... Close to 10 million people died of HUNGER when Stalin was around, there were hundreds of thousands of people murdered in Yugoslavia, people are being killed now as well. We all know that Jews suffered and no-one denies it here.

I have read this and that about Schindler, also from people who met him, and what Spielberg portrayed is not accurate in many people's opinions, just as what Gibson does will not be accepted as true.


edit: 10 million casualties includes Ukraine, but i was inaccurate by saying it was in Ukraine alone
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post #31 of 513
Quote:
Originally posted by alcimedes
then again, how many people did Stalin systematically murder? i thought it was something over 9 million.

Yes that is also inconcievable . . . and it has its own variation of strange horrible means . . a country eating itself with nobody stepping up to the challenge, I mean noone: there were no resistance groups at all-!! (that I know of)
They are both horrible genocides . . . each has a form to it that is somehow emblematic of how the civilizations that fostered them have huge blind spots. Blind spots as to their own inherent qualities that partly define that civilization that contributed formation of the genocide: for instance a constituent aspect of the West is its industrial-technological qualities where all of the world is seen as a "standing reserve" which lies at a distance and which is simply to be taken control of and manipulated as our Will would have fit. . .

But anyway, the point is is that people are too facile when they claim that the hollocaust has been missused - (I'm not saying that missuse of history has never happened) but what I am saying is that few who will start to puppet Gobson's claims . . . or even just discuss them, has ANY IDEA of the magnitude and the horror of what took place
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #32 of 513
*walks up to soap box*

I've yet to hear one Jewish commentator come up with specific passages of the movie that are demonstrably "anti-semitic". All I hear is that "the general tone of the movie might evoke feelings of anti-semitism". Yah, and it might not. So what? Can we really hope to control the behavior of ignorant people who are so weak-minded that they are "looking for an excuse"? If we could, would we really want to? Free will?

Are we going to start making or recommending only those movies which contain no scenes or dialogs that could be construed as "offensive" to everyone in the audience?

Is being offended against the law? Would life be better if no one was ever offended by anything? Maybe we should all sequester ourselves away and live in such a way as to be insulated from every word, idea and image that isn't "pleasant" to us. Jewish leaders in this country and Europe seem to be enamored with the idea of a modern-day "Pleasantville" where political or religious discourse are concerned. You can say anything you want about someone or some group that happens to be Jewish, just as long as it's nice.

Any criticism directed at anybody who happens to be Jewish, now or in the past = anti-semitism, apparently. Don't criticize the Sharon government, that's "walking the fine line of anti-semitism"... don't criticize any of the Jewish media moguls who have their hands in today's marvelous television programming, that's hateful. Don't talk in a negative way about the behavior of Jews who were present during Christ's persecution, that's just thinly veiled bigotry.


My preliminary conclusions about the movie:

1) If this movie was made by someone no one ever heard of, it wouldn't yet be news.

2) If we could only pretend that there were no Jews present during the hardships Jesus faced, or that they were all just innocent bystanders, everything would be just peachy.


Enough already. No one is above criticism of any kind, not even Jews, despite the attrocities they've endured. If you are human, you are worthy of criticism, and you will still be worthy of it when you are no longer alive on this earth. It doesn't matter if you're a Jew, a Catholic, a Muslim... gay or straight... light- or dark-skinnned... working man or working woman... a teenager or senior. WHY is that so hard for people to accept? People screw up; it's a part of life.

*steps off soap box*
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post #33 of 513
Couple obeservations and thoughts:

1. The nail necklaces or crosses made out of two pewter nails have been on the market for at least five years (that I've seen) and probably longer. They're now making more of an appearance, probably in part due to the movie. Also, Christian retail has been selling Nail Ornaments for years. No one has a problem of putting Jesus' name on cheap plastic crap to make a buck. At the Christian bookstore where I work, they even have bobble-head Jesus, Moses, Samson, and Noah. Christianity will always be marketed for people who want to make a buck, it has nothing to do with movies, just capitalism at its finest.

2. Stalin is credited with over 20 million deaths during his reign. Mostly he ordered them done, but he liked killing people himself. Many of his targets were Jews and like Hitler he wanted to get rid of them. Hence when Israel established the right of return in the 1950s, the majority who took advantage of it were Russian Jews looking for an escape.

3. As Rogue Master said, The Gospel of John was written during an intense period of hatred and violence between Jewish Christians and the orthodox Jewish leaders (Pharessies and the like) and hence Jesus is portrayed in the Gospel as really lashing out at the leadership and the author makes a big point of painting the Jewish leadership as responsible for the death and crucifixion of Christ. Christians in general really don't pay much attention to the historical background of biblical books and so things can be misinterpreted.

4. Just for fun, it was Rachel at the well when Jacob saw her, fell in love with her, and then married her sister Leah, who had bizzare eyes and when Jacob learned he had been tricked into marrying Leah, he then married Rachel as well. It wouldn't suprise me if it was fairly accurate, since it was common practice for men to marry multiple wives, even for the early Hebrews.

5. It's a movie. There have been scores of films made about the Passion. The only reason this is a big deal is because Mel Gibson is associated with it. If he hadn't been, I doubt anyone would care one way or the other.
post #34 of 513
One aspect of Jesus (actually the very center of christianity) I never understood was this: Jesus died for our sins. Through our belief in he being the son of god we are suppose to be forgiven. And the reason I hear is that his death was so horrible.

But a lot of other have died, knowingly, a much MUCH more horrible death because they tried to save other people. Think about those people on the roof of Chernobyl shoveling material on the open core. How on earth is the pain Jesus suffered so great that it can save billions while theirs are hardly remembered? Jesus death was in anyway you see it a very normal death.

Someone please expain this to me.
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post #35 of 513
Quote:
Originally posted by Moogs
*walks up to soap box*


The thing that bothers me allready about this movie, and which few people are even aware of, is how Gobson started with a PR campaign of "they (read 'Jews') are calling this film Anti-Semitic"

He started this along time ago

Which, as I have said in other places, is itself an Anti-Semitic gesture . . . to stir up false enmity between groups of people (Jews and Christians) inorder to create a hub-bub . . . OR, perhaps he really is paranoid

and the kind of hub-bub would be even more Anti-Semitic if in fact the movie wasn't Anti-Semitic (wrap your head around that paradox, hey\) because the alarm was sounded, supposedly by "them" (read 'Jews') and it was unfounded.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #36 of 513
"Anti-Semitic", "Anti-Semitic", "Anti-Semitic", "Anti-Semitic", "Anti-Semitic", "Anti-Semitic", "Anti-Semitic", "Anti-Semitic", "Anti-Semitic", "Anti-Semitic", "Anti-Semitic".

Here, there should be enough of it for the rest of that thread, so can we drop using this phrase now?
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post #37 of 513
Quote:
But a lot of other have died, knowingly, a much MUCH more horrible death because they tried to save other people. Think about those people on the roof of Chernobyl shoveling material on the open core. How on earth is the pain Jesus suffered so great that it can save billions while theirs are hardly remembered? Jesus death was in anyway you see it a very normal death.

Someone please expain this to me

I wouldn't call Jesus' death (as we know it) to be "normal" by any means, and I wouldn't characterize it as anything but "awful" either. Even so I'm not sure I understand the point of your larger question: "How on earth is the pain Jesus suffered so great that it can save billions while theirs are hardly remembered?"

Are you suggesting that those who have endured more trying deaths in attempts to save the lives of others is more "Christ-like" than Christ's own death, in terms of the sacrifice made? Or that we should recognize his sacrifice less than those who by circumstance chose more difficult deaths to save a few lives?

Not arguing one way or another, just trying to understand what you're asking / implying.
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post #38 of 513
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
The thing that bothers me allready about this movie, and which few people are even aware of, is how Gobson started with a PR campaign of "they (read 'Jews') are calling this film Anti-Semitic"

He started this along time ago


Maybe so (I don't have any information on this one way or another), but if it was that obvious a ploy, why on earth would the leaders in the Jewish community dignify it by the actions they have taken? Better to just ignore it and wave Gibson off as a "quack" in that case. Why cry wolf, if that's what he's trying to bait you into?

Just doesn't make any sense to be ourtaged over something like this. That's another disease Americans in general have: they love to feel outraged and slighted so that they can bitch about it publicly. Either for sympathy or attention... or something. It's really sad. A culture of victims are we....
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post #39 of 513
Quote:
Originally posted by Moogs
I wouldn't call Jesus' death (as we know it) to be "normal" by any means, and I wouldn't characterize it as anything but "awful" either. Even so I'm not sure I understand the point of your larger question: "How on earth is the pain Jesus suffered so great that it can save billions while theirs are hardly remembered?"

Are you suggesting that those who have endured more trying deaths in attempts to save the lives of others is more "Christ-like" than Christ's own death, in terms of the sacrifice made? Or that we should recognize his sacrifice less than those who by circumstance chose more difficult deaths to save a few lives?

Not arguing one way or another, just trying to understand what you're asking / implying.

That Jesus died the then-equivalent of the electric chair. Thousands of criminals died pretty much like he did... so why is his death singled out as one of great suffering? Others have suffered more during their deaths, often precisely to save others, so why make a big deal about *his* suffering? Was it just the public humilation? Honestly, I don't get it either.
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post #40 of 513
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
That Jesus died the then-equivalent of the electric chair. Thousands of criminals died pretty much like he did... so why is his death singled out as one of great suffering? Others have suffered more during their deaths, often precisely to save others, so why make a big deal about *his* suffering? Was it just the public humilation? Honestly, I don't get it either.

Whether one person was crucified or one million, I think we can agree it is a very cruel and unusual way to put someone to death. Imagine if the electric chair didn't kill you in 30 seconds but 30 hours... the effect is the same essentially. So, I don't think we can dismiss what Christ went through out of hand, because many others also went through it. They're having done so doesn't make it any less agonizing or drawn out.

I suspect you might be more satisfied on the matter if not only Jesus' death were talked about so much, but if others like him that have died since were also paid attention to on a regular basis? IOW, I think your real gripe is not to exclude Jesus' death from the discourse, but to INCLUDE the trials and tribulations of others who "died horrible deaths to avert the death of others". You are correct in that sentiment I think. I just wouldn't reduce the significance of Jesus as a solution but rather increase the significance of those who aren't spoken of often.
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