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The Great Flood

post #1 of 258
Thread Starter 
We were talking about population in my Algebra 3 / Trig. Class and my teacher went into how he doesnt really trust carbon 14 dating and that he thinks that the great flood could have happened around only 5000 B.C. Is he crazy or is there possibly any truth to this? My biology teacher laughed and said he is completely wrong. Does anyone have any sites or knowledge about this on comparisons?

My math teachers main points were saying that a the world was a crust around water that acted as a cushion from the center of the earth so there were no earthquakes or volcanoesthat type of stuff. He said a meteor or something hit and broke the crust, and then the water under enormous pressure was shot as high as the atmosphere out at the polls and that is why there are mammoths frozen so perfectly, as the super cooled water came down, it froze instantly and all that stuff. He also said how the Grand Canyon wasnt millions of years of the Colorado carving it, but just days of massive amounts of water/mud. He sighted Mt. St. Helens as an example saying that the same thing happened there only on like 1/40th of the scale or something. He also said they (this freaked me out, conspiracy theory sounding an all) dont want us to know about the other theories and that is why you wont hear about them. He said that a professor at a college in Arizona was fired because of teaching this sort of thing.

He also said carbon 14 doesnt work right, and one of his examples was that rock layers are dated older at the top then at the bottom. He went into the fact that carbon 14 found in coal shouldnt be there if its as old as they say and that you cant use that dating method because it isnt necessarily a good measure due to the fact that it is a measure of how much carbon 14 is lost in our conditions not the conditions of ancient times.

My biology teacher laughed and said how they disagree on those things and that the older dated rocks are sometimes caused by mountainous regions falling over and so it looks inverted when you date it.


So what do you think, I am young and impressionable, so Id like to read up on it, as Im sure we will talk about it tomorrow. My math teacher was pretty convincing but it is probably just because I dont know enoughjust like if someone doesnt have explanations, it is easy to make it look like we didnt land on the moon (not to open up another can of worms).

He said more that I could go into but only will if I need to. So I may have made him sound crazier then I should have or less crazier then he really is.
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post #2 of 258
Sounds like somebody has been listening to the Creationists again.
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post #3 of 258
Check out Zecharia Sitchin's book that have theories close to this. They mention about how Earth was affected by bodies in our solar system - and this is where ancient cultures started with their stories about the gods (which were planets).
post #4 of 258
Wonder how the atmosphere is in the teachers lounge...
"I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" - President Bush
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post #5 of 258
While I know nothing of the dates, it is quite likely that a large flood did in fact happen in Biblical times. The reason for my belief here is that the flood story shows up in a number of Ancient Near East texts. It's in the Old Testament, but it's also in the Epic of Gilgamesh, which leads one to think that some sort of catastrophic flood did happen.

The flood stories are actually rather enlightening because the provide some insight to the relationship that people had with there surroundings. The Mesopotamians (in the Gilgamesh story), are clearly influenced by the unpredictability of the flood, and thus feel that their gods are playing with them, whereas Noah forms a bond with God after the flood, showing a much more pacified association with there surroundings. Just thought I'd share. Carry on with the Creationist bashing.
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post #6 of 258
Yeah, there was a Great Flood 5000 years ago, just a couple of thousand years after God took some dust and made the first human with MAGIC GOD POWERS.

Now that I have taken advantage of an opportunity to crack on religion, I must say that many myths are based in fact, and it is true there are a lot of flood stories. That doesn't necessarily mean that some sort of flood happened, all the flood stories may have just originated with the same lie. But it's still possible.
post #7 of 258
ast3r3x, your teacher has no idea what he's talking about and is just regurgitating some crackpot sci-fi biblical stuff he picked up at the local crystal shop/storefront church.
Quote:
Originally posted by agent302
While I know nothing of the dates, it is quite likely that a large flood did in fact happen in Biblical times. The reason for my belief here is that the flood story shows up in a number of Ancient Near East texts. It's in the Old Testament, but it's also in the Epic of Gilgamesh, which leads one to think that some sort of catastrophic flood did happen.

Maybe it was the flooding of the black sea. Who knows?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea
post #8 of 258
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Wonder how the atmosphere is in the teachers lounge...

Warning of the Surgeon general : smoking carpet is bad for mental health
post #9 of 258
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Maybe it was the flooding of the black sea. Who knows?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea

Yeah. But it also could be that the Noah story was based on the Gilgamesh story. Either way, it's interesting to speculate.

asterex: I don't understand the premise. Your teacher said the flood "only happened around 5000 BC?" Is there some prevailing theory that it happened before then? Is there even a prevailing theory that it happened at all? It sure does sound like he's trying to push some kind of creationist theory - the carbon 14 stuff, the "Grand Canyon wasn't created in millions of years" stuff, the "they don't want us to know the truth" stuff and "a professor in Arizona was fired" stuff. Ask him the name of the professor who was fired. I give 100:1 odds that never happened.

agent302: if anyone deserves bashing, it's creationists.
post #10 of 258
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
agent302: if anyone deserves bashing, it's creationists.

I know. I was endorsing Creationist bashing, not being sarcastic.
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post #11 of 258
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Yeah. But it also could be that the Noah story was based on the Gilgamesh story. Either way, it's interesting to speculate.

asterex: I don't understand the premise. Your teacher said the flood "only happened around 5000 BC?" Is there some prevailing theory that it happened before then? Is there even a prevailing theory that it happened at all? It sure does sound like he's trying to push some kind of creationist theory - the carbon 14 stuff, the "Grand Canyon wasn't created in millions of years" stuff, the "they don't want us to know the truth" stuff and "a professor in Arizona was fired" stuff. Ask him the name of the professor who was fired. I give 100:1 odds that never happened.

And if it *did*, I applaud it just as I would a professor teaching Scientology as a reasonable alternative history.

No wonder our educational system sucks - we're placing our children in the hands of imbeciles incapable of a minimum of rational or critical thinking.
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post #12 of 258
Thread Starter 
Well it was just a side topic going off of how the population growth formula didn't take into account tragedies like that stuff. You know how high school is, it's always fun to get the teacher off topic.

I understand him believing all this stuff though, he is a hard core christian.
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post #13 of 258
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
And if it *did*, I applaud it just as I would a professor teaching Scientology as a reasonable alternative history.

No wonder our educational system sucks - we're placing our children in the hands of imbeciles incapable of a minimum of rational or critical thinking.

Really? I wouldn't go that far. I think you're currently in academia, right? You can't - and shouldn't - fire people for loony ideas. High School is different, but not in universities.
post #14 of 258
Ok, couple of things. There is nothing wrong with carbon dating. The relative levels of isotopes in the atmosphere overtime have been corrected for by looking at both ice deposites in the artic/antartic and stalgmite/tite formation. While this certainly doesn't give an accurate description beyond a few million years ago, beyond that point creationist have no argument and the variation in isotope levels doesn't vary significantly in that time frame (the idea is that the error cited from the method outweighs the error of not knowing the relative isotope amounts)...

There are other dating methods available now which are more popular (i think) inclusive of methods measuring the level of argon in samples which is related to the isotope decay of potassium... this gives you a measure of the last time a rock changed chemical composition (ie a process that would release the stored argon) and cannot be used for fossils...

On the note of floods. There could have been a flood, but I believe the black sea flood thing has been shown to not be possible...
post #15 of 258
Quote:
Originally posted by ast3r3x
Well it was just a side topic going off of how the population growth formula didn't take into account tragedies like that stuff. You know how high school is, it's always fun to get the teacher off topic.

I understand him believing all this stuff though, he is a hard core christian.

I guess you are fortunate he is not your science teacher.
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post #16 of 258
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Really? I wouldn't go that far. I think you're currently in academia, right? You can't - and shouldn't - fire people for loony ideas. High School is different, but not in universities.

True. High school is about imparting facts and (one would *hope*) critical thinking skills to students so that they have a toolset with which to simply get through life.

University is about expanding horizons and looking at possible alternatives.


*HOWEVER* (oh, you knew one was coming ), if a university level professor was teaching random spewage that was indefensible from some basic critiques (and no, 'ineffable mind of God' is not a valid justification), I'd expect them to be yanked out of the classroom and given a nice harmless job doing something else. Students are paying good money to receive a good education. We should strive to give them that, not waste their time, money or neurons.

(And this is coming from the guy that thinks that cold fusion still has some potential unexplained processes that could turn out to be interesting.)
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post #17 of 258
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha

(And this is coming from the guy that thinks that cold fusion still has some potential unexplained processes that could turn out to be interesting.)

Oh and he said he figured out cold fusion as well Haha he is a nice guy and good with math, just...we'll call it a conflict of interests.

I just wanted to make sure he was crazy and it wasn't one of those "columbus found america" type things. I figured it wasn't, but I'd make sure with the enlightened few on these boards
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post #18 of 258
Sounds like a nutter to me. \

Wait... Columbus found America??? Why, was it lost?
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post #19 of 258
I have to point out that anyone that has taken Rocks for Jocks (Geology 101) knows that older rocks can be on top of younger rocks for many different reasons. One of the most common is called folding, it's when the pressures force rocks into cool looking shapes.

Oh, and ask your teacher how he plans to use Carbon-14 testing on inorganic rocks.
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post #20 of 258
Carbon 14 is cross-corroborated with ice cores and underground calcium deposits too. It's not 100% accurate but I don't think anyone seriously contests that it works.

So, er, yes: making science fit to a preconceived world-view derived from a very special sacred text in operation vis-a-vis your maths teacher.
post #21 of 258
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by HOM
I have to point out that anyone that has taken Rocks for Jocks (Geology 101) knows that older rocks can be on top of younger rocks for many different reasons. One of the most common is called folding, it's when the pressures force rocks into cool looking shapes.

Oh, and ask your teacher how he plans to use Carbon-14 testing on inorganic rocks.

Yeah my biology teacher talked about folding after he stopped laughing Well maybe that isn't what he said, but he simplified it a lot and said basically rocks build up and fall over and then the bottom are at the top and the top is at the bottom so it's inverted. Maybe he didn't say folding, but he did laugh a lot.
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post #22 of 258
I would like to add that your math teacher is an idiot, have him stick to math.
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post #23 of 258
The sheer number of "Flood" stories that exist lends credence to the idea that it did happen. Aside from Gilgamesh and the Bible, there are such stories found in remote Asian cultures, Chinese history, North American Indians and Central America's Aztec and Incan empires.

I'm about to go out but I'll research the links in a day or so. I remember reading up on this a couple of years ago during AI's Fellowship Wars.

With such an abundance of stories, most people would normally take the position that something on a global scale in the distant past triggered such narratives.

But, of course, the fact that the story exists in the Bible means that it must be discounted at all costs.
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post #24 of 258
No, just the idea that it covered the world over and it could be used to build a convoluted support for a paranoid creation theory that has neither anything to do with the original spirit of the text, nor any sensitivity to its rhetorical purpose.

Confine yourself to a few Mediteranean low lands and you'll be closer to the truth.
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post #25 of 258
Ah, the great flood.

Let us say the crust of the earth covered a body of underground water and that a giant meteor came in and cracked it... how was there an atmosphere to sustain wooly mammoths without massive and exposed bodies of water? (Hint: There would not be.)

It rained for 40 days and 40 nights, enough to cover the entire earth, 15 cubits over the highest mountain. Everest is ~29,000 feet high (~348,000) inches.
348,000/40=8700inches/day
8700/24=362.5inches/hour
362.6/60=6inches/minute

It had to rain 6 inches per minute to cover Mt. Everest in 40 days. Now, forget the obvious question of where the water came from, just imagine in your brain that kind of rain. For 40 days. 6 inches per minute.
For reference, the heaviest rain I have ever read about or even heard of in my entire life was ~15 inches in one day, during a hurricane.

So we are to believe that the entire earth was subjected to a rainfall 580x greater than the worst recorded hurricane for over a month. We have all seen the mudslides caused by heavy rains... I am no geologist, but would there even be mountains left? What shelter could protect the living things of the world? The ark?

The water stood for 150 days, according to the Bible. That would undoubtedly kill well over 90% of all plant life on the Earth, at least (if they would even survive the brutality of the rain, which I cannot even conceive being possible).

I am prone to think it did not happen. That's just me.
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post #26 of 258
Quote:
Originally posted by Matsu
Confine yourself to a few Mediteranean low lands and you'll be closer to the truth.

That wouldn't account for the widespread "Flood" accounts all over the world though.


Quote:
Originally posted by Groverat
Let us say the crust of the earth covered a body of underground water and that a giant meteor came in and cracked it... how was there an atmosphere to sustain wooly mammoths without massive and exposed bodies of water? (Hint: There would not be.) [/B]

I don't know anything about this guy or his theory, but the "underground water" thing I've come across before. One of the most overlooked passages in the Genesis account is Chapter 2, verse 5.

Basically, there's a bizarre reference to the fact that it had never rained on the Earth before. A "mist" is said came up from the ground and watered the Earth. This explains the reasoning behind Noah not being able to sign up even one convert to his cause. Water falling from the sky seemed silly.

I'm not sure if this is what he's talking about.


[rant] How can I be discussing Genesis in TWO different AO threads? I'm going to bed. [/rant]
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post #27 of 258
Quote:
Originally posted by Kickaha
*HOWEVER* (oh, you knew one was coming ), if a university level professor was teaching random spewage that was indefensible from some basic critiques (and no, 'ineffable mind of God' is not a valid justification), I'd expect them to be yanked out of the classroom and given a nice harmless job doing something else. Students are paying good money to receive a good education. We should strive to give them that, not waste their time, money or neurons.

(And this is coming from the guy that thinks that cold fusion still has some potential unexplained processes that could turn out to be interesting.)

I disagree. Tenured university profs (and, really, the non-tenured as well, although it is not politically wise for them to do so) have the right to spew whatever they want so long as it is related to the subject matter without fear of political, personal, or theoretical/philosophical reprisal or punishment.

Cheers
Scott
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post #28 of 258
the don't have that right actually. perhaps they should have but they don't...
post #29 of 258
Thread Starter 
Just a little more I remembered what he said. Said the trenches that travel along the center of the atlantic and pacific oceans are proof of the crack that traveled the whole way around. He also said I think that it came out more at the polls for some reason I forget what. He said it wasn't rain really it was just the massive amounts of water falling from the sky that were shot up by the tremendous force of the crust on the water under it. That is why you find mammoths frozen in such perfect condition because of how fast it came down.
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post #30 of 258
plate tectonics explains the rift (that giant crack) and by this point in high school you should be aware of this fact.

The whole crust floating on water thing is a bit bizarre... Do you go to a public school?
If so, this man should be fired...
post #31 of 258
I second the notion that this teacher should stick to maths. Maybe you kids should stop derailing him from the subject and let him return to his equations? I always find it the scary when scientists who will not believe in Darwinism and refer to the Bible for answers get to so much attentions simply because they are scientists (and supposed to know better).
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post #32 of 258
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
The sheer number of "Flood" stories that exist lends credence to the idea that it did happen.

that's fallacious reasoning. most of the western world believed for a long time, and many professed that, the sun revolved around the earth. they are all now believed to be wrong. mass acceptence of an idea isn't proof of its truth; just proof of its favorable effect on the believers.

Quote:
Originall posted by KANE
I second the notion that this teacher should stick to maths. Maybe you kids should stop derailing him from the subject and let him return to his equations?

thats one of the most fun things about school. it's what makes it safe for kids like me to sleep in class (knowing that teacher isn't talking about the subject being tested). and for people who aren't sleeping, they can have a class discussion on something they might be interested in, instead of trig, bio or whatever other b.s. they got on the curriculum. we once got our music teacher to go 40 or 50 minutes about why "110%" is a valid amount of effort to give, despite arguments from the galley that it would only seem like "110%" and yet be "100%". it's really funny to watch them when they are so far off topic.
post #33 of 258
Thread Starter 
Well we've gotten my bio teacher on the topic of school vs club sports for the a whole period almost. He even made it a test question!

Basically he was saying that you should do school sports instead of club because the club isn't sponsored by the school and it takes good atheletes away from school sports. He is the track coach

They are good teachers, it's just when you talk about something they believe and are adament about, it's easy to go into that. Just like it's hard to not say something when people are bashing macs or saying how good PC's are.

He gave some names today when we were talking about it if anyone wants them, but we didn't talk about it long because he said he had to teach and tried to tie it in though, about carbon 14 dating and stuff. If you want to know what he said just ask.
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post #34 of 258
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
That wouldn't account for the widespread "Flood" accounts all over the world though.



Sure it does, if the flood was ancient enough that it occurred back when most civilization was in the fertile area that we now call the Black Sea.

There was no global flood. It defies logic and the laws of physics. There is not that much water in the world, and had there ever been, our planet would have been too heavy to maintain our current orbit. Nothing would have survived the event the Bible recounts, and we would not have now the speciation and separation of animal types that we do had this event truly occured (how would we have kangaroos in Australia, how did they get there from the Ark?)

The Bible, particularly Genesis 1 through 10, should only be taken literally in the most minute of ways, lest the literalness of the text strip away its theological value in the modern age.

Kirk
post #35 of 258
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkland
There is not that much water in the world[/B]

You've obviously never seen Kevin Costner's Waterworld.

I've often wondered if a Loving God would really create Canadian Winters.
Maybe he created an entirely tropical world, and the Flood messed up half the planet and the water cycle subsequently created the polar ice caps.

My own crackpot theory to be sure, but anyone who's had to shovel a driveway and sidewalk in -35ºC weather has got to question whether this was part of the Grand Design.
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post #36 of 258
This is an interesting question ... I agree with Kirk.

The Bible stories (OT) are probably all true.

That is, they are metaphorical, allegorical retellings of truths about humanity.

For example, the Cain and Abel story has a sedentary farmer killing a nomad; it's interesting that -- in the very area where the OT was written -- nomadic hunter-gathering people became sedentary farmers, changing the course of human development and society totally. Farming man 'killed' nomadic man.

What are the Bible stories if not true in some way?
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post #37 of 258
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
But, of course, the fact that the story exists in the Bible means that it must be discounted at all costs.

I don't think that's it, I just think that the idea that the entire earth was flooded and killed everything just doesn't make sense and doesn't fit with empirical evidence.

A question: Do you start out with a belief that the Bible must be true, and then reason from that point? That's what it seems like with many religious folk. Does that seem like a reasonable way to try to understand the world?
post #38 of 258
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
What are the Bible stories if not true in some way?

They are stories. Many of them good ones.
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post #39 of 258
Quote:
Originally posted by Frank777
My own crackpot theory to be sure, but anyone who's had to shovel a driveway and sidewalk in -35ºC weather has got to question whether this was part of the Grand Design.

Never occured to me.
post #40 of 258
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
They are stories. Many of them good ones.

I'd say they're often folk memories of the broadest sort too. OK, the Genesis bit is as valid as Malian tales of the world being made by a god high on palm wine, but many of them seem to feel like real history, distorted by oral re-telling a few thousand times. You don't have to believe in God to think that (I don't) and you don't have be a blind believer in obvious impossibility (like ahem some in this thread) either ...
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