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post #121 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by drewprops
It seems to be that Segovius is of the opinion that if you withdraw your standing troops from the Middle East that the mean old Al Queda (in all their permutations) will leave you alone.

That they won't fly airplanes into buildings.
Bomb discotheques.
Blow holes in ships.
Kidnap missionaries in the jungle.
Oppress their women.
Destroy other cultures holy places.

He should be reminded that their grievance is Western Culture, not military occupation. It gives them wide-ranging lateral options with no one "solution" to the problem. They came to play.

Hiding isn't a real option.

Nope.

Segovius is of the opinion that there are a bunch of immoral politicians in power in the west who think nothing of exploiting a real threat like al-Qaeda and utilising the consequent misery, suffering and death that they cause for their own power-seeking ends with hardly a thought for the citizens they are supposed to represent.

He also firmly believes that the line of thinking typified by 'al-Q are evil, our governments oppose al-Q therefore our govts=good' is not only erroneous but dangerous. He also would suggest that this line of reductionist non-thought is inculcated by western politicians for the maleficent purposes alluded to above.

Finally, he would I'm sure, wish to draw attention to the fact that the Spanish people have woken up to this duplicity and that is the primary reason why Aznar and co have had their asses bounced to the kerb.

If the US and UK people do not follow suit then without a doubt we will be here in a years time having deja vu over Iran or Syria, probably both.
Presumably Spain won't now do a u-turn and go into those two guns blazing so perhaps in the fall-out of that little number then perhaps you might consider who exactly will be in the firing line when retaliation comes.
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post #122 of 163
Well, Aznars fate goes to show that in a democracy, you as a elected leader, cannot go against the will of the majority forever. Trying to prod 80% of the population to support a war they regarded as immoral was always a high-risk game. Trying to spread false news about who was the perpetrator was too much as we have seen.

Unfortunately, Al Quaida - as well as certain members of this respectable forum - will now attribute the way the election went to the bombing. It is ironic to see how the hawks on both sides reach the same conclusion - and how this has the potential to be self-fulfilling.

This misperception of the election outcome will surely make future election bombings much more likely - let's hope for the best concerning the presidential election in the US.
post #123 of 163
That's the worst part. There really isn't a fix to this situation.
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Steve Jobs ate my cat's watermelon @ drewprops.com
Oldest Member of AI (Jan 99) until JRC snaps to his senses and starts posting again. (the blackout borked my join date)
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post #124 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Smircle
Well, Aznars fate goes to show that in a democracy, you as a elected leader, cannot go against the will of the majority forever. Trying to prod 80% of the population to support a war they regarded as immoral was always a high-risk game. Trying to spread false news about who was the perpetrator was too much as we have seen.

Unfortunately, Al Quaida - as well as certain members of this respectable forum - will now attribute the way the election went to the bombing. It is ironic to see how the hawks on both sides reach the same conclusion - and how this has the potential to be self-fulfilling.

This misperception of the election outcome will surely make future election bombings much more likely - let's hope for the best concerning the presidential election in the US.

Good points Smircle.

There is another aspect also that is worth thinking about (imo) :

al-Q are just one of many terrorist groups and obviously their aim is to cause terror in the populace. In this sense they have already won - the populace are terrified. But it is good to ask how, how did they win ?

The answer is simple: because of the warheads and right-wingers, whether in govt or on forums like this.

To put it simply, al-Q they have helped al-Q create a brand. That's something that money can't buy. The brand is terror and whenever a terrorist act occurs people say 'al-Qaeda'. Even now, before there is any confirmation people are saying 'al-Qaeda'.

Think about what this means and what it means to the terrorists. Any terrorists:

Any group (Islamic or not) can commit an atrocity and people will say 'al-Qaeda'.

If they are non-Islamic this is good for them - they can stay hidden and move around in peace to do something else.

They can spread much more 'terror' - ie be far more effective if the use the al-Q' brand.

Any tin-pot small time operation can strike it big just by linking in to the al-Q meme.

And every attack whether al-Q or not just looks like the governments are failing to stop one super-criminal octopus.

It's a myth folks. Al-Q were a pretty loose outfit at the best of times - they got lucky once but the head honcho is dead and the cells are scattered to the winds. That's not to say there aren't some nasty outfits out there hatching some seriously nasty plans but all this 'James Bond evil genius' stuff is just sensationalist imo.

And that's before you get into the governments that are helping stoke up this crap.

Enough with the al-Qaeda. Who cares. Terrorism has to be stopped not one subsect of terrorism - terrorism was around before OBL and will be (is) around long after. If we don't focus on the root cause rather than the symptoms it's game over.

(climbs down from soapbox/pulpit/mimbar)
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #125 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by drewprops
That's the worst part. There really isn't a fix to this situation.

I think that terrorist would bomb again - in Europe and elsewhere - regardless of the Spanish electorate's reaction. Spain may have been targetted now because it supported the coalition, but also it may have been a convenient target. France did not support the coalition, but it is very possible that it also could be targetted. In France's case, the terrorists may point to that country's ban on religous symbols in schools - which some Muslims perceive as an attack on them - or France's history in North Africa, or France's strong domestic anti-terrorist efforts - mainly directed at Islamic extremism - that were put in place long before 9/11. Other countries likely will be targetted as well, for any number of reasons. The real extremists need little or no real basis for their actions.

There is no absolute 'fix' to the situation, but there is an appropriate reaction, that of vigilance coupled with political and social engagement. Vigilance includes strong intelligence-based anti-terrorism efforts and, where necessary, military action. (It does not, however, include invasions of countries on the pretext of fighting terrorism while, in fact, pursuing other agendas.)

Political engagement and social engagement includes seeking deeper understanding of what inspires terrorists and reaching out to communities that produce them. Some denounce this as appeasement, but this is quite misguided. Rather, it is always our responsibility to reach out in this manner, regardless of whether there is terrorism from some elements of these communities. Even if it were not to stop a single terrorist, such engagement is a worthwhile and necessary goal in its own right. Furthermore, in the long run, it is the only thing that will actually reduce terrorism. So many people seem to disparage the slow, messy and compromise-ridden job of political and social work at the international level and indeed, these international efforts suffer from all of these flaws and more. These efforts are, however, the only real hope and those who pursue them in good faith are, in my opinion, worthy of very high praise.
tribalfusion?
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tribalfusion?
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post #126 of 163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Smircle
Well, Aznars fate goes to show that in a democracy, you as a elected leader, cannot go against the will of the majority forever. Trying to prod 80% of the population to support a war they regarded as immoral was always a high-risk game. Trying to spread false news about who was the perpetrator was too much as we have seen.

Unfortunately, Al Quaida - as well as certain members of this respectable forum - will now attribute the way the election went to the bombing. It is ironic to see how the hawks on both sides reach the same conclusion - and how this has the potential to be self-fulfilling.

This misperception of the election outcome will surely make future election bombings much more likely - let's hope for the best concerning the presidential election in the US.

Very good post, Smircle, you said in a few words, what i tried to explain.

However, no countrie is bomb proof when it come to terrorists. I doubt that France will avoid such bombing. She has already suffered islam terrorism in the past, there is no reason, that he vanish by magic. Terrorists are nihilist, their goal is to eradicate everything that contradicts themself. You can talk to this kind of people. For them, a good occidental people is a dead people.

That's silly that the miss interpretation of the spanish election, will be traduced for them like a victory. This is very disapointing.
post #127 of 163
I have not read this entire thread but I wanted to say this if it had not been said. Bush was right about terrorism and is correct to be so involved in strengthening defense and initiatives to seek out and destroy terrorists.
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People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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post #128 of 163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Messiahtosh
I have not read this entire thread but I wanted to say this if it had not been said. Bush was right about terrorism and is correct to be so involved in strengthening defense and initiatives to seek out and destroy terrorists.

All european governements agree that strengthening defense is essential. They will try to coordonate their force in a much cooperative manner in the near future.
Defense against terrorism is much more a story of secret intelligence than anything else : an hidden war against hidden ennemies.
post #129 of 163
Al Jazeera loves John Kerry

John Kerry

The choice of terrorists and Euro weenies across the world.

Would be a good TV spot for him.
post #130 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by msantti

John Kerry

The choice of terrorists and Euro weenies across the world.

LOL is this the John Kerry smear campaign? I can't believe this, this is just too much. Kind of Mini-Me McCartyism at work, like "don't trust this guy, he is _rumored_ to be liked by Europeans?

Dude, get a grip. They way you are exploiting the suffering and death of hundreds of people is distasteful, to put it nicely. This is worse than the usual partisan bullshit, this is outright frivolous.

You, sir, should be ashamed of yourself.
post #131 of 163
Well, I think most in Europe would prefer to see Kerry in the oval office.

Am I right?
post #132 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by msantti
Well, I think most in Europe would prefer to see Kerry in the oval office.

Am I right?

No. The rest of the planet would prefer to see Kerry in the Oval Office. Everyone hates Bush, from here to Timbuktoo.

To put this in context- before Bush's state visit to Britain nearly 70% of the population (according to an ICM or a Gallup poll for the Guardian) thought that America was a 'force for good' in the world: but not even 50% of the population thought he should be made welcome. We're not anti-American in Europe.

Like everyone else, we just hate your President.
post #133 of 163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by msantti
Al Jazeera loves John Kerry

John Kerry

The choice of terrorists and Euro weenies across the world.

Would be a good TV spot for him.

Spew your hate elsewhere. Euro weenies : why not ? , but the choice of terrorists is an insult. Unlike you Kerry is a war hero.
post #134 of 163
Quote:
Political Science (Randy Newman, 1972)

No one likes us-I don't know why
We may not be perfect, but heaven knows we try
But all around, even our old friends put us down
Let's drop the big one and see what happens

We give them money-but are they grateful?
No, they're spiteful and they're hateful
They don't respect us-so let's surprise them
We'll drop the big one and pulverize them

Asia's crowded and Europe's too old
Africa is far too hot
And Canada's too cold
And South America stole our name
Let's drop the big one
There'll be no one left to blame us

We'll save Australia
Don't wanna hurt no kangaroo
We'll build an All American amusement park there
They got surfin', too

Boom goes London and boom Paree
More room for you and more room for me
And every city the whole world round
Will just be another American town
Oh, how peaceful it will be
We'll set everybody free
You'll wear a Japanese kimono
And there'll be Italian shoes for me

They all hate us anyhow
So let's drop the big one now
Let's drop the big one now

Take out the obvious Cold War reference to "drop the big one", substitute "declare war on terrorism" (almost a contradiction in terms!) and it doesn't sound all that different to what I'm hearing from some Americans now.
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post #135 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by msantti
Al Jazeera loves John Kerry

John Kerry

The choice of terrorists and Euro weenies across the world.

Would be a good TV spot for him.

The new wingnut mantra:

A vote for John Kerry is a vote for bin Laden.

It doesn't get any more un-American than that.
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #136 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
A vote for John Kerry is a vote for bin Laden.

Priceless.
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post #137 of 163
Quote:
Like everyone else,

Well, I would not go to that extreme.

Bush just refuses to be a terrorist sympathizer.

Sadly, many in the world are.


Quote:
Unlike you Kerry is a war hero.

Well, I might not be a war "hero", but I did serve in the 1st Gulf War in the Army.

Quote:
A vote for John Kerry is a vote for bin Laden.

post #138 of 163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by msantti
Well, I would not go to that extreme.

Bush just refuses to be a terrorist sympathizer.

Sadly, many in the world are.




Well, I might not be a war "hero", but I did serve in the 1st Gulf War in the Army.




Do you imply that Kerry is a terrorist sympathizer ?

If you serve in the army you should have more respect for veterans.
post #139 of 163
I'm checking out Democracy in America for the first time---and it just dawned on me the extent that Amercia's success blew DeTocqueville's mind---and how unexpected it was considering that America simply blew off centuries of political latency.

....Especially after the failure of the French revolution it must have been hard to take knowing how badly his own country had failed.


There has been a long contest for dominance between Europeans and Amercians. Using ancient "screw you" techniques, England should know more than anyone how "helpful" Amercia has been in maintaining it's colonial interests. Other Erupean countries felt America's pinch after WWII as well. To date, America has dominated the west. Europe, sensibly would like that to be otherwise.

Culturally this dominance has been a different story. (except maybe for the rubbish coming out of Hollywood and Microsoft)

Europe (generalizing agian) wants it's world influence back and has played hardball to get America's attention. Iraq was one such round, the recent tariffs thingy was another. In politics you don't get concessions unless you are a motherf**ker, and true to form, there has been a constant stream of invective coming out of Eruope for some time, on why Amercia is inferior, mentally, morally and politically. The mainstream American press, for its own reasons presents this invective to America's citizens as SINCERE CRITISISM of America.

Any Americam who believes any critisism from Europe to be sincere at it's core is being very, very naive.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #140 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by msantti
Well, I would not go to that extreme.

Bush just refuses to be a terrorist sympathizer.

No, trust me: everyone hates your President. They really do. It's unprecedented.
post #141 of 163
Quote:
If you serve in the army you should have more respect for veterans.

I do have ALOT of respect towards veterans. Just not him.

No different than the liberals who disrespect Bush.

Be nice to see Kerry not waffle on an issue.

What Bush is doing is wrong!

What Bush is doing won't work.

Then come on Mr. Kerry, lay out what you are going to do than be critical on Bush.
post #142 of 163
Quote:
everyone hates your President.

Well, "everyone" would then have to include me.

Sorry, its now an inacurate statement.
post #143 of 163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I'm checking out Democracy in America for the first time---and it just dawned on me the extent that Amercia's success blew DeTocqueville's mind---and how unexpected it was considering that America simply blew off centuries of political latency.

....Especially after the failure of the French revolution it must have been hard to take knowing how badly his own country had failed.


There has been a long contest for dominance between Europeans and Amercians. Using ancient "screw you" techniques, England should know more than anyone how "helpful" Amercia has been in maintaining it's colonial interests. Other Erupean countries felt America's pinch after WWII as well. To date, America has dominated the west. Europe, sensibly would like that to be otherwise.

Culturally this dominance has been a different story. (except maybe for the rubbish coming out of Hollywood and Microsoft)

Europe (generalizing agian) wants it's world influence back and has played hardball to get America's attention. Iraq was one such round, the recent tariffs thingy was another. In politics you don't get concessions unless you are a motherf**ker, and true to form, there has been a constant stream of invective coming out of Eruope for some time, on why Amercia is inferior, mentally, morally and politically. The mainstream American press, for its own reasons presents this invective to America's citizens as SINCERE CRITISISM of America.

Any Americam who believes any critisism from Europe to be sincere at it's core is being very, very naive.

The problem with your post is that he is totally out of topic. The subject is the worst bombing of spain history, a countrie who know well the terrorism. Now you transform this thread in the classical and recurrent thread "europe bash america".
Start a new thread about this, if you want, but do not derail this thread.
post #144 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz

....Especially after the failure of the French revolution it must have been hard to take knowing how badly his own country had failed.

The French revolution did not fail. Your post demonstrates a very poor understanding of history and the revolutionary process.
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post #145 of 163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by msantti
I do have ALOT of respect towards veterans. Just not him.

No different than the liberals who disrespect Bush.

Be nice to see Kerry not waffle on an issue.

What Bush is doing is wrong!

What Bush is doing won't work.

Then come on Mr. Kerry, lay out what you are going to do than be critical on Bush.

You have perfectly the right to hate or disrespect Kerry, but i still don't see why, by your own words, he is the choice of terrorists.

Have you any serious arguments about this point ?
post #146 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I'm checking out Democracy in America for the first time---and it just dawned on me the extent that Amercia's success blew DeTocqueville's mind---and how unexpected it was considering that America simply blew off centuries of political latency.

....Especially after the failure of the French revolution it must have been hard to take knowing how badly his own country had failed.


There has been a long contest for dominance between Europeans and Amercians. Using ancient "screw you" techniques, England should know more than anyone how "helpful" Amercia has been in maintaining it's colonial interests. Other Erupean countries felt America's pinch after WWII as well. To date, America has dominated the west. Europe, sensibly would like that to be otherwise.

Culturally this dominance has been a different story. (except maybe for the rubbish coming out of Hollywood and Microsoft)

Europe (generalizing agian) wants it's world influence back and has played hardball to get America's attention. Iraq was one such round, the recent tariffs thingy was another. In politics you don't get concessions unless you are a motherf**ker, and true to form, there has been a constant stream of invective coming out of Eruope for some time, on why Amercia is inferior, mentally, morally and politically. The mainstream American press, for its own reasons presents this invective to America's citizens as SINCERE CRITISISM of America.

Any Americam who believes any critisism from Europe to be sincere at it's core is being very, very naive.

I have a theory - Europe, being ancient, has seen it's constituent nations rise and fall, time and time again. It knows only too well the cyclic nature of the rise of civilizations and their demise.

America has witnessed no such phemomena and as such cannot really be expected to have the wisdom of Europe in these matters. It is perhaps reasonable that America thinks it will always be 'riding high' and cannot concieve of it's own demise - never having witnessed such a thing.

And this is the problem - America thinks it will live forever and thus interprets the European attitude as criticism - it isn't: it's just that we've seen your kind before a million times before, we've been there, bought the teashirt and the special dvd and it was all a laugh at the time: Ancient Greece, the Roman Empire, Spain, the German French and British Empires.....all walked the walk and all are now merely dust fluttering irritatingly in the ozone-depleted irradiated breeze.

I'm afraid the US is just the latest in a long line of 'contenders' crusing for a fall. My advice is get it over with - give it your best shot, go out with your boots on in a blaze of glory and join the rest of the us wiser heads at the back in the cheap seats. It's quite fun really - you should hurry up and get it out of your system and we can all wind-up the next newbie in a couple of hundred years.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #147 of 163
Thread Starter 
Can we stay focused on the topic please
post #148 of 163
jesus sergovius are you my long lost friggin' twin or something. That's my theory, hands off!

Powerdoc I see things are drifting a bit but a lot of this is the topic - just getting to the crux of the problem. The American defintion of democracy seems like a very fluid thing sometimes. But it often seems to boil down to "you're only truly democratic if you agree with us". Riiiight.....

Like so much US foreign policy, some people around here completely fail to grasp that accusing the Spanish people of caving into terrorism is, aside from anything else, incredibly f*cking insulting. (there you go back on topic)
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post #149 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
Can we stay focused on the topic please

Apologies. I got a bit derailed.

Imo - there are two distinct issues here that are not the same thing (though to some people they are):

1) The phenomena of terrorism - an age old problem that Europe (but not the US) has been facing for nearly half a century if not longer.

2) the 'War on Terrorism' which really is no such thing - it is more of a 'war on associated Islamist groups that are in the spotlight post-911'. That is to say it does not essentially encompass groups like the Tamil Tigers, Eta etc and it is (naturally) driven by the US.

I am not condemning approach 2 but saying addressing the issues of 1 would be more effective.

Basically (and this is where I come on-topic ) Europe is approaching from the first of these and US from the second. Spain has now switched horses, that's all that's happened - everyone wants to stop these maniacs, that is not and should not, be in doubt. Spain tried it one way and now they are going to try it a second way. There is no question of anyone 'chickening out' or 'giving in'.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #150 of 163
Well, there are now 201 deaths. A 45 year-old woman died in a hospital. Her condition was severe before.

http://www.tagi.ch/dyn/news/ausland/358022.html (German)

Six suspects are said to be identified. Five men are on the run, one has been caught.

Aznar is said to have been calling newspapers, and pressing them to say that it was ETA. Uh-oh. Major Uh-Oh.

http://www.tagi.ch/dyn/news/ausland/358075.html (German)

\
post #151 of 163
Thread Starter 
Crazychester, Segovius, i derailed this thread too, I admit that i was pissed to see also people accusing spanish people of caving into terrorism. Spanish people have fought against terrorism since 30 years, and they never gave up.

Defiant, thanks for your update, that bring us back on the topic.
post #152 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
I have a theory ...........get it out of your system and we can all wind-up the next newbie in a couple of hundred years.


Good post.

Sorry for the derail attempt.

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and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #153 of 163
I seriously doubt it was ETA.

Al Qaeda has a fascination to kill innocent people.

Why don't they just go after the powers that be.

Oh wait, they can't do that so they will just go for the easy kill.

Way to go Al Qaeda.
post #154 of 163
Quote:
BOMBING DECEPTION EVEN WORSE THAN WE THOUGHT?....It's pretty well established by now that José MarÃ*a Aznar's PP party did its best to mislead the Spanish people about who was responsible for last Thursday's bombing because they thought blaming ETA would help them politically. They have since gotten their reward at the polling booth for this deception.


But it turns out it's even worse. Here's what the Financial Times reports from German authorities:

Quote:
Its federal criminal bureau said the Spanish authorities intentionally withheld information and misled German officials over the explosives used in the Madrid bombings. The Spanish conservative government had insisted the Goma 2 Eco dynamite for the explosives had been frequently used by Eta, the Basque separatist movement. On Monday, it admitted that was not the case.

They didn't just mislead their own people, they also endangered the investigation itself by misleading other crime agencies. Since the group behind the bombings was spread throughout Europe, cooperation with other police forces was essential to quickly cracking the case. Playing games in a case like this really did have the potential to let the bombers get away.


I'd say Aznar and the PP have gotten exactly what they deserved.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/arc..._03/003506.php

So by supporting Bush he went against the will of the vast, vast majority of the country, then he shows himself as an absolute crook in his handling of the bombing.

Yet the american right says that voting him out was a bad thing.

Maybe it will be a problem strategically, but Bush shouldn't rely on crooks to be his strongest allies.
post #155 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
So by supporting Bush he went against the will of the vast, vast majority of the country, then he shows himself as an absolute crook in his handling of the bombing.

Yet the american right says that voting him out was a bad thing.

So what exactly are you implying, or are you just leaving that part blank so people can see whatever they feel fits nicely as your notion? Are you suggesting that the American right says that voting him out was a bad thing because he has "shown" himself as an absolute crook? (seeing as how crooks would like crooks, right?) ...or would there be other (more practical) reasons voting him out was a bad thing?

Should we apply this same leap in logic to say things like anybody who was against the Iraqi war (or votes for Kerry, for that matter) wishes that Saddam was still in power? Saddam was a good ruler? Saddam would never harm anyone?

Seriously, now...
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post #156 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Randycat99
leap in logic

It's your 'logic'* that's doing all the leaping in that post.

*'logic' in this context meaning 'imagination'
post #157 of 163
...not really. I'll take your lack of a response as conceding that you have not a better explanation of "what you meant" than the one given. Consider yourself punked.
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Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
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post #158 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Randycat99
...not really. I'll take your lack of a response as conceding that you have not a better explanation of "what you meant" than the one given. Consider yourself punked.

Maybe Giant is doing something more worthwhile I'm sure he'll respond if necessary.

Meanwhile, I haven't got anything more worthy to do so here's my 0.02:

The US right say voting Aznar out was a bad thing because they want/need as much support as possible to gain/maintain power.

They don't actually care about democracy, justice, WOT, human rights, ending terrorism - they care about maintaining power.

Of course they will expend 1000% effort to give the illusion that they care about these things but only to the degree that the public do - and of course this 'caring' increases exponentially with the enormity of any given issue in the public's mind at any moment.

This is how Rumsfeld's first reaction post-911 can be 'tie this into Iraq' rather than 'find the perps'.

This is how despite all the cant, rhetoric and hypocrisy, the Taleban are back in the ascendancy.

This is how the US can (still) snuggle up to totalitarian despots like Musharaf, the Bin Laden family and the Sauds which is really just a replay of how they originally courted Saddam (though worse in the sauds case because they may be implicated in 911).

They will tell you what you want to hear, what is moral, right and good - then when you believe them and vote them in they will continue to do the opposite and lie to you about it.

Aznar was, of course, a politician of this sort who subscribed to this immoral ideology - which was why he was part of the coalition. He used the same practices and principles Bush and Blair do - he's just the only one caught out at it......

.....so far
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #159 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Randycat99
Are you suggesting that the American right says that voting him out was a bad thing because he has "shown" himself as an absolute crook?

Where did he imply this?

Aznar ignored the will of the people all along and hoped to get away with it. In any functioning democracy this is bound to fail sooner or later. Rather ironically, it fired back right after a murderous attack - which will appear as a victory to AQ.

Nice lesson on how a bad deed is leading to even worse results.

Of course the US right wing has nothing better to do than try to smear it on spanish voters instead of evaluating the strategy they and their allies are using. What are they going to do if more countries are tired of being lied to (in the UN, no less)? Elect themselves new voters?
post #160 of 163
It's a bad deed either way you choose to go. Unfortunately, some people choose to disregard the "alternative" bad deed, with respect to if they are on the left or the right. The real observation to make is which bad deed is the worser.
Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
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Lauren Sanchez? That kinda hotness is just plain unnatural.
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