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Kerry a liar? - Page 4

post #121 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Thoth2
I ask because I wonder if you have Federally subsidized student loans.

I have no such loans, luckily my tuition is only a small amount, since I have academic scholarships and parents that work for the University.
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post #122 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Messiahtosh
The point is to work towards that, by other means than excessive ammounts of do-nothing programs. Equal opportunity is a Republican philosophy, equality is a Democratic dream.

I'm not certain those are meaningful or even accurate distinctions...
post #123 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
I'm not certain those are meaningful or even accurate distinctions...

They are accurate and meaningful, you just dont want them to be.
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post #124 of 163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Wrong Robot
Well the first part should have made enough sense, it is possible to not be affiliated with a party and still have right-wind leanings, or left-wing leanings, or to move back and forth as issues that pertain to your well being favor one or the other....etc...etc.

as for you liking to argue, it was just a mere question/comment, in the past few political threads you have been one of the more outspoken, even in the face of tremendous scrutiny and evidence against your cases, but you've still stayed stalwart to whatever cause you had, people that do this, generally don't ever care to change their mind, or let anything change their mind, they just, as I mentioned, like to argue.

this isn't a knock on you, just something I've noticed from a couple years of participating in internet forums, you may or may not fit this description, as with almost everyone who argues here, arguments on the internet are pretty pointless anyway, it's naive to think you'll actually change anyone's mind on something, the best you can hope for is agreeing to disagree, and even that is petty sometimes. Sure there are exceptions, but most of the time, regardless of what people say ("show me evidence to the contrary and I'll change my mind") they never actually will, ya know?

Well, you are very astute, because I see the same things. However, I have not participated in threads to change anyone's mind, as I too realize that changing minds is virtually impossible. I make a stand when I see spin and dishonesty. Someone needs to point it out, so I do.

I have said many times I feel there is a place for both liberal and conservative views in real life and in politics. But both need to realise it is a checks and balances issue.

I also have never asserted that anyone can change my mind, but the facts can. I will readily admit when I am wrong. I however refuse to accept things base on supposed or assumed authority by anyone on some issue. I like things to make sense to me, I choose the path that makes the most sense to me.
post #125 of 163
But it is not a fun world to live in where people dont believe the facts.
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post #126 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I also have never asserted that anyone can change my mind, but the facts can. I will readily admit when I am wrong. I however refuse to accept things base on supposed or assumed authority by anyone on some issue. I like things to make sense to me, I choose the path that makes the most sense to me.

Just because things make sense to you doesn't make those things right.

Do you have any criteria for determining someones authority on a subject, or which facts to believe? Do you just pick the side that 'feels' right to you?

You seem to have contradicted yourself here.

They're your opinions, I'm just curious.
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post #127 of 163
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by audiopollution
Just because things make sense to you doesn't make those things right.

Do you have any criteria for determining someones authority on a subject, or which facts to believe? Do you just pick the side that 'feels' right to you?

You seem to have contradicted yourself here.

They're your opinions, I'm just curious.

If you mean, do I pick and choose what facts I beleave?

No. That is lala land. But take for instance this whole "bush lied argument", in order to beleive that whole premise you need to assume way to much, IMO. So therefore rather than buy into that line, I choose to give him the benefit of the doubt. That makes more sense to me.

Don't get me wrong, maybe he did lie, I would not put that past any politician, isn't that the ongoing joke anyway? But I am willing to accept the fact that I do not know everything, and this could go either way. For example, a breaking news story could bring to light that SH really did have WMD and all of sudden some will feel very foolish for jumping the gun.

I would rather err on the side of the president whoever he/she may be.
post #128 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Well, you are very astute, because I see the same things. However, I have not participated in threads to change anyone's mind, as I too realize that changing minds is virtually impossible. I make a stand when I see spin and dishonesty. Someone needs to point it out, so I do.

I have said many times I feel there is a place for both liberal and conservative views in real life and in politics. But both need to realise it is a checks and balances issue.

I also have never asserted that anyone can change my mind, but the facts can. I will readily admit when I am wrong. I however refuse to accept things base on supposed or assumed authority by anyone on some issue. I like things to make sense to me, I choose the path that makes the most sense to me.

You and I are very similar to one another methinks, only, what makes sense to you, seems to be right leaning, and what makes sense to me, tends to be left leaning, that's not saying I wouldn't support either, but more often than not, What comes out of the left makes more sense to me, not necessarily case-by-case, but in general over the past few years I've actually raised an ear towards politics.

but more than anything the divide between right and left is what irks me the most, it seems that people get too caught up with disagree with the other side simply because they are the other side.
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post #129 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Messiahtosh
I have no such loans, luckily my tuition is only a small amount, since I have academic scholarships and parents that work for the University.


Ohhh. So THAT is equal opportunity...
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post #130 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
If you mean, do I pick and choose what facts I beleave?

No. That is lala land. But take for instance this whole "bush lied argument", in order to beleive that whole premise you need to assume way to much, IMO. So therefore rather than buy into that line, I choose to give him the benefit of the doubt. That makes more sense to me.

Don't get me wrong, maybe he did lie, I would not put that past any politician, isn't that the ongoing joke anyway? But I am willing to accept the fact that I do not know everything, and this could go either way. For example, a breaking news story could bring to light that SH really did have WMD and all of sudden some will feel very foolish for jumping the gun.

I would rather err on the side of the president whoever he/she may be.

Thanks for the reply. That's the most pragmatic I've ever seen you - no offense intended.

My issue was with the following comment: "I however refuse to accept things base on supposed or assumed authority by anyone on some issue."

Although I think you've somewhat explained that, I'm still interested in knowing if there are any sources that you will accept at face value without question? (Besides any currently elected President, that is. )
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post #131 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Ohhh. So THAT is equal opportunity...

Yeah see, my parents worked their way up into positions where they could afford to be able to do this for their children. You see, my dad was born into a row house in Philadelphia, his father died before he graduated from high school, and his mother soon after. He was put through college from inheritence and eventually met my mother, gave up coaching football, and got a PhD. Now he is a top executive at a University and my mother is a lawyer for the same institution. How's that for the American dream? Oh, and we just built a brand new house. 5 kids, is a lot to support also...the system works. So now they are being compensated for their sacrifices and committment.
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post #132 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Messiahtosh
Yeah see, my parents worked their way up into positions where they could afford to be able to do this for their children. You see, my dad was born into a row house in Philadelphia, his father died before he graduated from high school, and his mother soon after. He was put through college from inheritence and eventually met my mother, gave up coaching football, and got a PhD. Now he is a top executive at a University and my mother is a lawyer for the same institution. How's that for the American dream? Oh, and we just built a brand new house. 5 kids, is a lot to support also...the system works.

So what did YOU do to be born by that wonderful family?
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post #133 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
So what did YOU do to be born by that wonderful family?

I am the product of the system's success. Some people are born as products of the system's failures, but then they have the chance to become the success.
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post #134 of 163
-deleted- must read entire post before replying
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post #135 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Thoth2
By parity of logic, wouldn't poor people/less fortunate people be a product of the system's failures?
Thoth

Please re-read.
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post #136 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Messiahtosh
Yeah see, my parents worked their way up into positions where they could afford to be able to do this for their children. You see, my dad was born into a row house in Philadelphia, his father died before he graduated from high school, and his mother soon after. He was put through college from inheritence and eventually met my mother, gave up coaching football, and got a PhD. Now he is a top executive at a University and my mother is a lawyer for the same institution. How's that for the American dream? Oh, and we just built a brand new house. 5 kids, is a lot to support also...the system works. So now they are being compensated for their sacrifices and committment.

You missed his point.

Equal opportunity exists if the playing field is level. It's not. If your father was a deadbeat dad and your divorced mother worked in the cafeteria at the school, you would not have equal opportunity to be attending the school or living in your 5 bedroom house.
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post #137 of 163
No, the point is to keep compounding upon their successes. You make the most of your given situation, with what is presented to you.

The playing field is not always level, but that is what we need to strive to accomplish. Not equal outcome though, but equal opportunity.
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post #138 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Messiahtosh
No, the point is to keep compounding upon their successes. You make the most of your given situation, with what is presented to you.

The playing field is not always level, but that is what we need to strive to accomplish. Not equal outcome though, but equal opportunity.

That's the rub, though. The opportunities afforded to you are vastly greater than those who may live in the hypothetical situation I described.

Drop 100 people on a island with equal amounts of supplies and you have equal opportunity (discounting the fact that some people are more capable than others). Unfortunately, what you call equal opportunity only exists at the beginning. Opportunity changes as time passes and generations build upon the successes and failures of their progenitors.

I think there's a problem with semantics here.
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post #139 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Messiahtosh
No, the point is to keep compounding upon their successes. You make the most of your given situation, with what is presented to you.

The playing field is not always level, but that is what we need to strive to accomplish. Not equal outcome though, but equal opportunity.


I honestly don't think most Dems, or liberals, or whatever you want to call them, would say that the goal is equal outcome. What I think is the crux of the issue is the means by which the playing field is levelled.
Thoth.
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post #140 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Thoth2
I honestly don't think most Dems, or liberals, or whatever you want to call them, would say that the goal is equal outcome. What I think is the crux of the issue is the means by which the playing field is levelled.
Thoth.

But see, you should not be levelling the field by BRINGING PEOPLE DOWN TO BRING OTHERS UP.
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post #141 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Messiahtosh
No, the point is to keep compounding upon their successes. You make the most of your given situation, with what is presented to you.

The playing field is not always level, but that is what we need to strive to accomplish. Not equal outcome though, but equal opportunity.

So you really think the republicans are doing that right now?

Before you post please do a search for affirmative action and my username here. I don´t believe in that at all. It should be handled on primary and secondary level of education. BUT leveling the playing field at that age isn´t anything I have seen the republicans do at all. Actually I have seen a lot of the opposite.

Proive me wrong and please a bit more qualified than a few catch phrases.
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post #142 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Messiahtosh
But see, you should not be levelling the field by BRINGING PEOPLE DOWN TO BRING OTHERS UP.

I don't think that's what Dems are trying to do - if you refer to the tax system in particular, a flat tax has problems of "bringing people down" just like the graduated system. It just brings down different people than the current system. I think you have to ask which people can best bear the equities or inequities, as the case may be.

Thoth
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post #143 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Thoth2
I don't think that's what Dems are trying to do -

That is exactly what they are trying to do. Kerry = more money taken from the top earners...ouch.
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post #144 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Messiahtosh
That is exactly what they are trying to do. Kerry = more money taken from the top earners...ouch.

I guess I don't understand your point about more taxation = bringing people down. Is it more fair to give a break to the rich b/c of fortuity of birth (I do realize some of them work hard - I do) and increase the proportion of taxes to income paid by the middle class (they are working within the system to make the future brighter for their kids, too)? That's what a regressive ("flat") tax would do. I realize that the current tax cuts don't bring about a "flat tax" but that is where I think conservatives wish to go. Where's the tipping point of fairness?

Thoth
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post #145 of 163
Wait, youre saying the middle class needs this money for sending kids to college? There are already prograaaams that do that, based on income and number of kids, and need.
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post #146 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Messiahtosh
Wait, youre saying the middle class needs this money for sending kids to college? There are already prograaaams that do that, based on income and number of kids, and need.

Why not make college/university fully taxpayer funded and entry would be granted through a lottery system?

That's equal opportunity!

I had no idea you were such a socialist.
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post #147 of 163
Socialist? I was making fun of the fact that you want yet more ways to do something that is already being handled through tax payer dollars.
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post #148 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Messiahtosh
Socialist? I was making fun of the fact that you want yet more ways to do something that is already being handled through tax payer dollars.

I'm not Thoth2.

I'm still playing around with the semantics of 'equal opportunity'.
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post #149 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by audiopollution
I'm not Thoth2.

I'm still playing around with the semantics of 'equal opportunity'.

No, you're not, and even if you were he'd be wrong with what I am attempting to talk about.
I was talking about taxes in general - my recent posts have not said anything about educational programs.
So, what about it, M-tosh? What is fair in taxation?
Thoth2
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post #150 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Thoth2
No, you're not, and even if you were he'd be wrong with what I am attempting to talk about.
I was talking about taxes in general - my recent posts have not said anything about educational programs.
So, what about it, M-tosh? What is fair in taxation?
Thoth2

I do not think the alternative minimum tax is fair.
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post #151 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Messiahtosh
Yeah see, my parents worked their way up into positions where they could afford to be able to do this for their children. You see, my dad was born into a row house in Philadelphia, his father died before he graduated from high school, and his mother soon after. He was put through college from inheritence and eventually met my mother, gave up coaching football, and got a PhD. Now he is a top executive at a University and my mother is a lawyer for the same institution. How's that for the American dream? Oh, and we just built a brand new house. 5 kids, is a lot to support also...the system works. So now they are being compensated for their sacrifices and committment.

So you're dad was put through college on his inheritence, allowing him to get a good education, allowing him to get a good job, allowing you to have choices of your own.

And as a 19 year old, you have decided that all of this is "the system working" and babble on about "equlity of opportunity" and your fantasies of "income redistribution". I'm sure all that sounds very grown up to you, and cooly hard nosed.

22% of America's young children live in households below the poverty line. Two thirds of these are working poor, meaning wage earners that can't get a job that pays enough to get out of poverty. These are people who couldn't go to college even if they had the money, because they have no savings, and certainly no inheritence.

What poverty means in America, the richest country in the world, is that millions of children go to bed hungry. Their parents would put more food on table if they could, but the money from a minimum wage job only goes so far. You know, jobs, the kind that wealthy business owners "down-size" and "off-shore" because, after all, maximizing profits is best for America.

All this contemptible, ignorant bullshit in this thread about welfare queens and bootstrapping and lazy poor folk living off the dole literally makes me ill. And coming from a bunch of white, privledged tech empowered kids it borders on the obscene. You people have no idea what your talking about, and apparently are perfectly happy to parrot the slogans that you've heard without doing any research into the actual faces and facts of poverty.

If it's such a fcking free ride I wish any one of you could trade places with a poor person, because I guarentee you could not handle it. Bootstrap my ass.
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post #152 of 163
Again, what do you think of the alternative minimum tax?
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post #153 of 163
post #154 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ

People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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post #155 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
22% of America's young children live in households below the poverty line. Two thirds of these are working poor, meaning wage earners that can't get a job that pays enough to get out of poverty. These are people who couldn't go to college even if they had the money, because they have no savings, and certainly no inheritence.

They live in households below the poverty line because the government picks a line and calls everything above it "middle class" and everything below it "poverty."

You should also mention that the clear majority of these "households" are single women with children. They also choose to work part time disproportionately and refuse to take jobs with less flexible hours since their priority is children over money. Their income reflects this and it is not a product of some oppression.

The part about college is 100% pure bullshit. Their income would open up an array of grants and loans. They can take a minimum of two years at any community college or (GASP) get a loan to get a well paying trade that then allows them to pay for college in the field they truly wish to study.

Quote:
What poverty means in America, the richest country in the world, is that millions of children go to bed hungry. Their parents would put more food on table if they could, but the money from a minimum wage job only goes so far. You know, jobs, the kind that wealthy business owners "down-size" and "off-shore" because, after all, maximizing profits is best for America.

100% unbackable bullshit. Most middle class and ALL impoverished children qualify for free lunch at public schools where they are served two meals a day for absolutely free. Study after study shows most children, even in impoverished homes eat out two to three times a week and have a growing obesity problem from ever earlier ages.

Minimum wage jobs are predominately held by students or very young people. They hold them in transitionary times when they are gaining the skill or trade to move on up the ladder. I earned minimum wage when I was 16 and some above it all the way through college. The second I was out of college I started earning real wages. I went from earning a maximum of $7000 a year (poverty) to earning a middle class wage and have every year since then. This is NORMAL. My brother earned minimum wage while going to trade school to become an auto and diesel mechanic. He earns a middle class wage and has every since he graduated. Again this is NORMAL.

Regardless of jobs being off-shored, the per capital income is still rising in America. The reason poverty advocates focus on household incomes is because households are getting smaller and thus it looks like their wages are shrinking when in reality they are rising per person. So a generation ago Dad, Mom and three children might have earned $50k a year with Dad working, mom at home and the three children at school. ($10k per person in the household) Now the single mother with her one child might be earning $25k per year. They are classified as a "household" and thus it looks like the household income has declined. In reality though the household income has gone up to $12.5k per person. The household is much smaller.

In an age of 50% divorce rates, we have more and smaller households. However per capita income is and has been rising.

Quote:
All this contemptible, ignorant bullshit in this thread about welfare queens and bootstrapping and lazy poor folk living off the dole literally makes me ill. And coming from a bunch of white, privledged tech empowered kids it borders on the obscene. You people have no idea what your talking about, and apparently are perfectly happy to parrot the slogans that you've heard without doing any research into the actual faces and facts of poverty.

Keep spreading your ignorance. I have worked and LIVED in the poorest neighborhoods. I have dealt with this population for over a decade. Go to any social worker and see how much remorse they have for 95% of the population receiving services. The people on the frontlines know them best and know the scams that occur. BTW assuming welfare recipients must be non-white is probably the most racist thing I have heard so enjoy not only your ignornace, but your racism as well.

This is from the Walter Williams link I posted earlier.

Quote:
From various government reports they find that: 46 percent of poor households actually own their homes; 76 percent have air conditioning; the typical poor American has more living space than the average non-poor individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens and other cities in Europe; nearly 75 percent of poor households own one car, and 30 percent own two or more cars; 97 percent have at least one color television; 62 percent have cable or satellite reception; and 25 percent have cell phones.

A bit more...

Quote:
According to the 1995 Annual Report of the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas, only 5 percent of those in the bottom 20 percent category of income earners in 1975 were still there in 1991. What happened to them? A majority made it to the top 60 percent of the income distribution -- middle class or better -- over that 16-year span. Almost 29 percent of them rose to the top 20 percent.

How many start at the bottom and never move from there? 5%. Of that 5%, how many were drop outs, drug users, lazy, dishonest, criminals, etc?

When you consider that the drop out rate is 25% and somehow only 5% of the population never left poverty, that really says something about the upward pull on income possible in our country if you do pretty much anything more than breath in and out.

Quote:
If it's such a fcking free ride I wish any one of you could trade places with a poor person, because I guarentee you could not handle it. Bootstrap my ass.

Kiss my ass. I don't have to trade places with them. I WAS THEM retard. My father was a mechanic and my mom was a housewife. We had 4 kids in my household and my financial aide application showed over $10k of unmet need every year that the state college did absolutely nothing to meet. (I can't possible be poor, I'm WHITE) My biological father was a drug addict and my stepfather and biological mother are both alcoholics.

I'll be a millionaire before I'm 40 and a multimillionaire before I retire.

Take your wannbe shit sandwich that you portray and enjoy eating it. Being on the bottom doesn't do anything but motivate you to get moving and get better. If you ENJOY being on the bottom, then there isn't a single thing to government can buy you or give you that will change that.

Nick

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post #156 of 163
All I know is that the poor aren't really poor- and even if they are poor, they're poor for a reason!
post #157 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
All I know is that the poor aren't really poor- and even if they are poor, they're poor for a reason!

Ok, ShawnJ--does that J stand for Jimmy Carter? Now go be like him and get out there and DO something about it, since you are so right and passionate about the poor.
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post #158 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
All I know is that the poor aren't really poor- and even if they are poor, they're poor for a reason!

According to income, you are poor.

So you can feel free to show us how "poor" you really are.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #159 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
According to income, you are poor.

So you can feel free to show us how "poor" you really are.

Nick

And he's even posting from a Mac, the most expensive of all computers! haha
People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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post #160 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman

Kiss my ass. I don't have to trade places with them. I WAS THEM retard.

Take your wannbe shit sandwich that you portray and enjoy eating it.
Nick

I plan on more travel abroad in future but simply from my trip to Paris I can say that indeed there are poor in many countries not just the US. Any large city will contain poor people and poor live also in rural areas (again in pretty much all countries)

I would hope comments of the like in the quoted materal above are given rest here in AO.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
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