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Kerry a liar? - Page 2

post #41 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Messiahtosh
How do you know they avoided it? Jesus, you are a total pessimistic cynic.

Because I saw the interviews... Not a pessimistic cynic... A realistic one.
post #42 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by billybobsky
Because I saw the interviews... Not a pessimistic cynic... A realistic one.

Which interviews? That is besides the point, the reason for the US going into Iraq and what people believe are the reasons for our entrance is why people also thought we just wanted oil. It goes both ways.
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post #43 of 163
Cheney, and several other high level administration people were interviewed on tv last year at about the time that these polls came out...
post #44 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by billybobsky
Cheney, and several other high level administration people were interviewed on tv last year at about the time that these polls came out...

Do you see my other point? It goes both ways. People may well have thought Saddam had something to do with 911, when indeed he did not. People also believed that we went to Iraq to seize and abuse oil, which indeed we did not do.
People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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post #45 of 163
Yeah, the whole point is that Republicans want the american public to not be informed especially about things that might directly sway their opinions on policy issues.
post #46 of 163
And we did actually go into Iraq to gain control of some oil supply...
post #47 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by billybobsky
Yeah, the whole point is that Republicans want the american public to not be informed especially about things that might directly sway their opinions on policy issues.

Now it comes clear, your voice now holds little weight with me and it should not with others. "R's want the public to not be informed..." WOW!

So sad that you think in such ways.
People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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post #48 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by billybobsky
Yeah, the whole point is that Republicans want the american public to not be informed especially about things that might directly sway their opinions on policy issues.

Here is some Republican "informing." The door swings both ways, m' boy.

"Stand Up for Chuck"
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post #49 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Messiahtosh
How is this so? Is John Kerry not trying to benefit from the anger wave in some of the classes and bolster himself into a position of power based on emotion and backwards thinking?

"We'll take some from here, move it over here, take that over there and build this up over here-ahhhh it all looks even now."---That is not the America I want to live in.

Yes, yes, and no.

Here are the core problems I have with your analysis:

1) that you believe having money and effecting social change are mutually exclusive. (logic)
2) that you blast "class warfare" only when the oppressed lower and middle classes engage in it. the reality is that your republican party antagonizes the lives of the poor as doctrine... regressive taxes, elimination of social security and welfare, welfare "reform," non-universal health care, elimination of the DOE, etc. (consistency)
3) that you believe a senator must necessarily sponsor "significant" legislation in order to "do anything." (value judgment)
4. that you consider the policies of John Kerry and GWB as "very similar." that's fine- I would certainly agree that the differences between the two major parties are very similar in many regards (both work within capitalism, both seek to maintain power, etc). but i would still not vote for GWB in a heartbeat because his policies have perpetuated and expanded a growing income inequality gap, whereas the presumptive democratic nominee would seek to reduce the gap. (conservative bastard)
post #50 of 163
Messiahtosh, why does that make my voice lose weight? Both parties realistically do it. It is all a part of the current state of spin....
post #51 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by billybobsky
Messiahtosh, why does that make my voice lose weight? Both parties realistically do it. It is all a part of the current state of spin....

Wow, are you going to stop BSing already?
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People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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post #52 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
(conservative bastard)

Excellent retort. Run for office. NOW.
"Stand Up for Chuck"
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post #53 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Jubelum
Here is some Republican "informing." The door swings both ways, m' boy.


CLASS SYSTEM.

We must reduce the growing gaps in income, education, health care, the standard of living, etc. between the rich and the poor.
post #54 of 163
Um, I am not BSing. I am serious.
post #55 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Jubelum


With his friend Tom Daschle, voice-over by HAL

"Hello, electorate... This is Tom..." [/B]

My Red Hell, you're right!

Brilliant!




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post #56 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
1) that you believe having money and effecting social change are mutually exclusive. (logic)
2) that you blast "class warfare" only when the oppressed lower and middle classes engage in it. the reality is that your republican party antagonizes the lives of the poor as doctrine... regressive taxes, elimination of social security and welfare, welfare "reform," non-universal health care, elimination of the DOE, etc. (consistency)
3) that you believe a senator must necessarily sponsor "significant" legislation in order to "do anything." (value judgment)
4. that you consider the policies of John Kerry and GWB as "very similar." that's fine- I would certainly agree that the differences between the two major parties are very similar in many regards (both work within capitalism, both seek to maintain power, etc). but i would still not vote for GWB in a heartbeat because his policies have perpetuated and expanded a growing income inequality gap, whereas the presumptive democratic nominee would seek to reduce the gap. (conservative bastard)

1. Social change stems from education, which leads to money (if that is your choice) and your ability to be able to wisely support initiatives.

2. The "oppressed lower and middle classes" are more uneducated than oppressed. Elimination of Welfare is antagonistic? It is antagonistic for people to be presented with opportunity and then reject it.

3. A Senator that did not support any major initiatives, with 3 pieces of minor legislation to his name is pathetic by and standards or values when considering effectiveness as a politician. Most senators in an equal position have historically had their names attached to a few dozen or more major pieces of legislation.

4. I consider what policy Kerry has set forth, concerning defense and education as very similar to GWB. Kerry talks this grandiose game that has no real backbone or pipeline for delivery.
People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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post #57 of 163
Shawn... Class Warfare is very sexy. But we're all a bit oversexed these days, ya know? Second, Republicans are looking for a FLATTER TAX, where everyone pays equally, not according to their "sin" of being "rich." What the hell is wrong with a millionaire and a single mom paying equal taxes for equal protection and service from our govt.

It's a plank of the Communist Manifesto- Progressive Income Tax.

Quote:
Democracy would be wholly valueless to the proletariat if it were not immediately used as a means for putting through measures directed against private property and ensuring the livelihood of the proletariat. The main measures, emerging as the necessary result of existing relations, are the following:
(i)Limitation of private property through progressive taxation, heavy inheritance taxes, abolition of inheritance through collateral lines (brothers, nephews, etc.) forced loans, etc.
- Frederick Engels, The Principles of Communism
"Stand Up for Chuck"
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"Stand Up for Chuck"
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post #58 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
CLASS SYSTEM.

We must reduce the growing gaps in income, education, health care, the standard of living, etc. between the rich and the poor.

Tell me how, by redistributing the wealth? We must not reduce the gaps to a massive extent or face the extinction of incentive.
People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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post #59 of 163
**sticks head in door**

Don't get into a pissing match with one another. Disagree on points, but don't make it personal.

**pulls out**
post #60 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Yes, yes, and no.

Here are the core problems I have with your analysis:

1) that you believe having money and effecting social change are mutually exclusive. (
logic)
2) that you blast "class warfare" only when the oppressed lower and middle classes engage in it. the reality is that your republican party antagonizes the lives of the poor as doctrine... regressive taxes, elimination of social security and welfare, welfare "reform," non-universal health care, elimination of the DOE, etc. (consistency)
3) that you believe a senator must necessarily sponsor "significant" legislation in order to "do anything." (value judgment)
4. that you consider the policies of John Kerry and GWB as "very similar." that's fine- I would certainly agree that the differences between the two major parties are very similar in many regards (both work within capitalism, both seek to maintain power, etc). but i would still not vote for GWB in a heartbeat because his policies have perpetuated and expanded a growing income inequality gap, whereas the presumptive democratic nominee would seek to reduce the gap. (conservative bastard)

1. Republicans do not hate or even dislike the poor. Their solution is simply not to keep throwing trillions of dollars at poverty.

2. National healthcare is wrong. Wrong.

3. Social Security was never supposed to be permanment. Never.

4. Reduce the income gap? How? Please...go ahead. I'm listening.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #61 of 163
I love your Sig.
People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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post #62 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by BuonRotto
**sticks head in door**

Don't get into a pissing match with one another. Disagree on points, but don't make it personal.

**pulls out**

????????

This is one of the most benign theads I've seen in AO in months!


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post #63 of 163
Twentieth century medicine made its most significant advances after it was realized that the poor, those who couldn't afford medical care, were the most likely to need the care. It was further realized that the afflictions of the poor became the afflictions of all and that by preventing the illnesses in the poor population, you could stave off massive epidemics that would otherwise affect all classes.
Our nation is only as strong as its weakest link.
post #64 of 163
And our weakest link is stronger than most country's strongest.
People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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post #65 of 163
It took a lot of good programs to get to that point. You wouldn't want to live like our weakest link though... And there is very much room for improvement...

BTW, a class system doesn't create incentive....
post #66 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by billybobsky
It took a lot of good programs to get to that point. You wouldn't want to live like our weakest link though... And there is very much room for improvement...

BTW, a class system doesn't create incentive....

No, it took the realization of some of the small number of people on the bottom to come to grips with what they had to do on their own. Programs can only take you so far.

BTW, a class system certainly does support incentive. For some education (teaching others) is stimulating, and money (to have the highest possible quality of life which is afforded to people through our progression in technology, education, and business relations and be able to contribute to things like churches) for others, all sorts of good things can rouse people to action.
People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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post #67 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by billybobsky
It took a lot of good programs to get to that point. You wouldn't want to live like our weakest link though... And there is very much room for improvement...

BTW, a class system doesn't create incentive....

Once again: WHAT IS YOUR SOUTION?

You cannot have free health care in this nation. It will destroy the finest system in the world. We should focus on major tort reform and insurance regulation to lower premiums. Free healthcare will be a disaster.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #68 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by billybobsky
It took a lot of good programs to get to that point. You wouldn't want to live like our weakest link though... And there is very much room for improvement...

BTW, a class system doesn't create incentive....

Yes it does. The desire for wealth motivates. This is why financial-need based welfare is a failure. It removes the incentive to work by providing a saftey net. It should be based on mental and physical ability, not financial need.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #69 of 163
I think our health care system sucks right now. I have a lot of friends who get shitty treatment because their insurance company refuses to pay, or in many cases won't pay until its too late for something to be done.

A lot of the diseases in the country are preventable. Free health education is a start in the right direction...
Why can't we set up a system that pays for a physical every year?
post #70 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Yes it does. The desire for wealth motivates. This is why financial-need based welfare is a failure. It removes the incentive to work by providing a saftey net. It should be based on mental and physical ability, not financial need.

Do you really expect the government to set up the beurocracy needed to asses everyones mental/physical ability?

Aside from that. I work long hours not because I am financially motivated but because I want my current project to get somewhere. Motives exist outside of money. Many motives, most motives, exist outside of money...
post #71 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by billybobsky
I think our health care system sucks right now. I have a lot of friends who get shitty treatment because their insurance company refuses to pay, or in many cases won't pay until its too late for something to be done.

A lot of the diseases in the country are preventable. Free health education is a start in the right direction...
Why can't we set up a system that pays for a physical every year?

Yes, our health care system has its faults. There needs to be some improvements and refinements to how it all happens.

Why are we on this issue again, yes, because we trounced your logic on the others. I'm not saying this to be mean, just to reiterate.

Our health system is considered the best in the world. It needs some help, but it is the best. Just because we are the wealthiest nation does that also mean that every american should be given a free car because transit is a necessity?
People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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post #72 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by billybobsky
Do you really expect the government to set up the beurocracy needed to asses everyones mental/physical ability?

Aside from that. I work long hours not because I am financially motivated but because I want my current project to get somewhere. Motives exist outside of money. Many motives, most motives, exist outside of money...

Motives may not exist for money but they cannot exist in the first place without money. True, a male can go through life never having to reproduce, but what if everyone did that? Again, a very cynical outlook.
People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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post #73 of 163
there exist public transit no?

anyway. my logic wasn't trounced on anything. i like discussing health care reform. i steered the conversation that way.
post #74 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by billybobsky
there exist public transit no?

anyway. my logic wasn't trounced on anything. i like discussing health care reform. i steered the conversation that way.

You certainly did steer it, or veer it.
People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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post #75 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Messiahtosh
True. but they cannot exist in the first place without money. Again, a very cynical outlook.

Again, a very republican outlook.

The funny thing is I can live for two years on what I have in the bank, but I don't give a rats ass. My research's success drives me, learning about new things drives me. I don't go into lab figuring out how much I earn an hour (at this point it is less than minimum wage)... i go into lab figuring out what I am going to do next to get my molecule made...
post #76 of 163
You do not see my point. Motivation certainly does spring up from sources besides money. Without money though, the motivation would never exist in the first place. In order to live, be educated, and pursue a motivation, we must have money.
People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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post #77 of 163
no. no we don't.

bartering. my father sometimes will barter his medical care.

Edit: further in a bartering system, there is no need for a class architecture. perhaps batering is less efficient than money, but the idea is there. money is not an absolute...
post #78 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by billybobsky
no. no we don't.

bartering. my father sometimes will barter his medical care.

Edit: further in a bartering system, there is no need for a class architecture. perhaps batering is less efficient than money, but the idea is there. money is not an absolute...

Beck, Lost Cause

Your sorry eyes, they cut through bone.
They make it hard to leave you alone.
Leave you here wearing your wounds
Waving your guns at somebody new.

Baby you're a lost
Baby you're a lost
Baby you're a lost cause.

There's too many people you used to know
They see you coming they see you go.
They know your secrets and you know theirs
This town is crazy, but nobody cares.

Baby you're a lost
Baby you're a lost
Baby you're a lost cause.
I'm tired of fighting
I'm tired of fighting
Fighting for a lost cause

There's a place where you are going
You ain't never been before
No one laughing at your back now
No one's standing at your door
That('s) what you thought love was for?

Baby you're a lost
Baby you're a lost
Baby you're a lost cause
I'm tired of fighting
I'm tired of fighting
Fighting for a lost cause.
People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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post #79 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by Messiahtosh
True, a male can go through life never having to reproduce, but what if everyone did that?

Yes, what?
post #80 of 163
Quote:
Originally posted by 123
Yes, what?

Cute.
People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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People that are passionate about what they do, truly believe in their good cause, have a clear vision and understanding of what they want, those people are heroes.
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