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Richard Clarke - Page 8

post #281 of 402
I'm DEFINITELY in cut-and-paste mode:


Quote:
[MEET THE PRESS]

RUSSERT: Did you vote for George Bush in 2000?

CLARKE: No, I did not.

RUSSERT: You voted for Al Gore?

CLARKE: Yes, I did.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #282 of 402
Well that proves 2 things...

He's smart... and voted the same way a majority of americans voted in the last election.

Also proves he's not the partisan some are claiming him to be.
A Fair and Balanced Liberal

John Kerry for President
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A Fair and Balanced Liberal

John Kerry for President
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post #283 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
Why can't we lead school children is non-denominational prayer....voluntarily?

Being given the option to either repeat or not repeat the same supposedly one-size-fits-all prayer being mouthed by a crowd of people is hardly the kind of limited choice a government-supported public institution should be foisting upon the public, especially where children and teens are involved, who are typically highly motivated by a desire for conformity with their peers.
Quote:
The Constitution does not guarantee one's right not to be offended.

Of course not, but the converse does not apply that all offensive things are allowed, the particular offense here being a government institution being used to foster or promote particular religious viewpoints.

Any prayer so completely non-denominational as to truly promote no particular religious viewpoint would have to be so watered down that I can't see how you could call what was left a prayer anymore.

Oh, God, Goddess, Gods or other great divine powers that some of us firmly believe in, while others doubt or firmly deny, but may be willing to kindly accept in a poetic ceremonial sense for the moment perhaps, and to whom we mean no offense if they are not so accepting, please grant your Divine Favor, to a degree commensurate with each of our own senses of how appropriate it is to be asking Your Intervention in these matters, upon our Mighty Wildcats in their upcoming match against Westdale High...

There are only three main categories of viewpoint I can see for those wanting government-sponsored institutions to conduct public prayers:

1) Not understanding the difference between a free democratic society and a tyranny of the majority -- thinking that the question goes no further than "If the majority wants to prayer, why can't we have prayer?"

2) Having an active desire to put the imprimatur of the State upon the act of prayer, with disregard (if not outright contempt) for "technicalities" like separation of Church and State.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #284 of 402
You know, I'm starting to dig this multiplexed thread idea.

Twice the ideas in half the space!
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #285 of 402
If you want god in your schools... go to private christian schools.

Can't wait to see this movie.

http://www.apple.com/trailers/mgm/saved/

Great casting.
A Fair and Balanced Liberal

John Kerry for President
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A Fair and Balanced Liberal

John Kerry for President
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post #286 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by chu_bakka
If you want god in your schools... go to private christian schools.

Can't wait to see this movie.

http://www.apple.com/trailers/mgm/saved/

Great casting.

Awesome. Can I put you down in the pro-voucher category?
"Stand Up for Chuck"
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"Stand Up for Chuck"
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post #287 of 402
Nope. If you want your god in education... pay for it yourself.
A Fair and Balanced Liberal

John Kerry for President
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A Fair and Balanced Liberal

John Kerry for President
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post #288 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by chu_bakka
Nope. If you want your god in education... pay for it yourself.

So in other words pay twice. That's crap.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #289 of 402
Why should my tax dollars send your kid to private school?

You can do whatever you want with you own money.

It's your choice to opt out of the public system.
A Fair and Balanced Liberal

John Kerry for President
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A Fair and Balanced Liberal

John Kerry for President
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post #290 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by chu_bakka
Why should my tax dollars send your kid to private school?
You can do whatever you want with you own money.
It's your choice to opt out of the public system.

Why should my tax dollars send my kid to a school I do not agree with?
Why should my tax dollars send checks to people who are able-bodied?
(talk about your "infinite loop" discussion...!)

I CAN'T do what I want with my "own" money. Ask the tax assessor/ school district. I'm required to pay for my kid to be taught things I do not agree with.

It IS a choice, that I should not be penalized for, i.e. paying twice.

"Stand Up for Chuck"
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post #291 of 402
I gotta agree with BR. It kicks my ass to not be part of the public school system and still have to PAY for the privilige of not sending my kids.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #292 of 402
I think we may have lost containment here....somebody tell Geordi to jettison the warp core.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #293 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I think we may have lost containment here....somebody tell Geordi to jettison the warp core.

"Stand Up for Chuck"
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post #294 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by Jubelum
Why should my tax dollars send my kid to a school I do not agree with?
Why should my tax dollars send checks to people who are able-bodied?
(talk about your "infinite loop" discussion...!)

I CAN'T do what I want with my "own" money. Ask the tax assessor/ school district. I'm required to pay for my kid to be taught things I do not agree with.

It IS a choice, that I should not be penalized for, i.e. paying twice.


Thank goodness your kids are getting taught things you don't agree with




By the way . . . you don't want your kids to be part of our civilization and still be part of this civilization? then you pay taxes and pay for a private school yourself
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #295 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
Thank goodness your kids are getting taught things you don't agree with




By the way . . . you don't want your kids to be part of our civilization and still be part of this civilization? then you pay taxes and pay for a private school yourself

Unlike most homes, my kids will receive the majority of their moral education at home, and not in front of a television.

OK.. so "our" (who the hell is "we") civilization is only supported by public school and public school alums. Private school kids need not apply. How very open and accepting.

From now on, I want you to send a check to the Christian Coalition in kind every time you donate to a cause you support. So you can feel how wonderful it is to pay for things you have NO use for personally.

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post #296 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
So in other words pay twice. That's crap.

Move to Zambia then.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #297 of 402
When the chips are down on educating the youth of America, it becomes apparent both where the power of coercion lies---and what forms of ideology that you must pay double to avoid.

Almost like a bribe.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #298 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I gotta agree with BR. It kicks my ass to not be part of the public school system and still have to PAY for the privilige of not sending my kids.

I have no kids at all. Are you going to propose a tax break or a special voucher for me? Why should I have to PAY for the privilege of sending your kids to a private school?
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #299 of 402
I've been to Zambia
And it ain't that pretty at all.

"Stand Up for Chuck"
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post #300 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by shetline
I have no kids at all. Are you going to propose a tax break or a special voucher for me? Why should I have to PAY for the privilege of sending your kids to a private school?

That's not how vouchers work. I get a tax rebate for the amount I paid in for school taxes. You don't pay for MY kid.

I simply get to skip the plasure of pouring money into a failing system, and use that money to send my kid to a school in line with my family's values.
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post #301 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I gotta agree with BR. It kicks my ass to not be part of the public school system and still have to PAY for the privilige of not sending my kids.

That's how taxes work. It kicks my ass to know that the cost of this next year in Iraq is more than the cost of converting our entire national oil system over to a modern system that can handle natural gas and ethanol.

So it goes.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #302 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
Move to Zambia then.

Seriously, I've had enough of this bullshit line. Yes, blah blah blah foreigners don't pay taxes in zambia blah blah blah shut up. When you boil it down you are simply telling me to get the hell out of the country if I don't like your welfare state and I'm fvcking sick of it.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #303 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
IOn Atheism having no rituals, I distinclty remember a friend at work who had a pagan marriage ceremony, performed by a witch, hands tied together with ribbon holding a lit candle, drum circle, the whole bit---pretty surreal.

Pagans believe in gods and spirits. Atheists, by definition, do not believe in God. An atheist would hardly have a witch at his wedding. Atheism is not a religion.
post #304 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
Seriously, I've had enough of this bullshit line. Yes, blah blah blah foreigners don't pay taxes in zambia blah blah blah shut up. When you boil it down you are simply telling me to get the hell out of the country if I don't like your welfare state and I'm fvcking sick of it.

Your taxes pay for the highway system also, but you'll probably not use most of the roads paid for. More importantly, advancements in technology are more of a driving force on an economy than taxes, defecits, or direct government spending. To produce an innovating technologically advanced society we need a good public school system because even with vouchers not all people can pay for private schools. I guarantee YOU benefit from the public school system even if you don't use it. Why should you be allowed to benefit from the public school system if your not going to pay? Did you go to college, or do you plan to send your kids to college? Well killer, the cost of tuition at state universities is mostly subsidized by taxes. Tuition only covers a small portion of the overall cost. So, when your kids go to college, thank your tax dollars hard at work. Even if they go to a private college there are many programs in place that allow tax dollars to be used by students at prive schools.

This idea that "My kid goes to private school why should I pay for public school?" is silly and short sighted. Imagine what economy we'd have if the public school system didn't exist. Countries throughout the world are putting out better students than here in the US and doing so with good public education. Like it or not, you tax dollars are being put to good use and improving your life.

If we didn't have to pay for every little program we didn't like then the government would run out of money faster than it already is. I'm fully against pork barrel polotics except when it benefits me. Vouchers are pork barrel politics that don't benefit me because I don't have kids, and vouchers take money from the public school system that WE ALL benefit from. Complain all you want but realize your car was designed by people publically educated. Your house was built by people who were publically educated. Your internet was developed by people publically educated. The use of vouchers takes money from the public education system just so you can use the private education system.

In most instances I believe the use of public funds for programs outside of national defense are a waste of $$$. The noted exceptions are the infrastructure funds, and the public education funds. We NEED educated people to improve our society. We NEED good roadways, and infrastructure to live the way we are accostomed. Public education is NOT a welfare state because YOU benefit from it like it or not!!!
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #305 of 402
That's all fine and dandy but the problem with public education is that it is for the vast majority of the population a monopoly and as such the product is crap. It needs some healthy competition and vouchers would help provide for that. Anyway, it's not like a voucher system is taking away money from others. It's taking the money that would have been spent on your child in the public schools and putting it towards that child's education in a private institution. I don't see how that is unfair at all.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #306 of 402
An obvious example where some should not be arguing above their pay. We do need educated people to improve our society. Your post is proof positive. Thank you so much for your contribution.
post #307 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by DeManON
An obvious example where some should not be arguing above their pay. We do need educated people to improve our society. Your post is proof positive. Thank you so much for your contribution.

Support your claims.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #308 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
Support your claims.

faust9 already has. The post was addressed to him.

On a related note..
post #309 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
Support your claims.

I'd rather see the people who don't think "their" taxes should be spent on anything that doesn't directly benefit them explain how they think a modern democratic capitalist society functions.
a flirt with mediocrity comes with heavy penalty
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a flirt with mediocrity comes with heavy penalty
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post #310 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by DeManON
faust9 already has. The post was addressed to him.

On a related note..

That's why we have the quote function.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #311 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
Seriously, I've had enough of this bullshit line. Yes, blah blah blah foreigners don't pay taxes in zambia blah blah blah shut up. When you boil it down you are simply telling me to get the hell out of the country if I don't like your welfare state and I'm fvcking sick of it.

Actually I'm just trying to get you to realize that everyone pays some taxes that don't give them direct, or necessarily any, benefits. It would be impossible to run the country if the government only collected taxes for programs that effected everyone.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #312 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
Actually I'm just trying to get you to realize that everyone pays some taxes that don't give them direct, or necessarily any, benefits. It would be impossible to run the country if the government only collected taxes for programs that effected everyone.

Saying what you mean instead of playing games and making inflammatory "get out of my country if you don't like it" statements usually works better. I have no reason to be pissed at you for this statement. And yes, I do realize that but I also believe that exceptions to the rule can be made when it is necessary to foster competition.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #313 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
...but I also believe that exceptions to the rule can be made when it is necessary to foster competition.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Fostering competition with taxes/tax breaks? I don't get what you're referring to.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #314 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Fostering competition with taxes/tax breaks? I don't get what you're referring to.

The public school system blows ass in large part due to it being essentially a monopoly. Forcing them to put together a better product to compete for the tax dollars is beneficial to everyone involved.

I would say the same thing in reference to any shoddy government product. Allow it to be privately outsourced and maybe you might see an improvement in the government product if they want to keep receiving any funds at all.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #315 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
That's how taxes work. It kicks my ass to know that the cost of this next year in Iraq is more than the cost of converting our entire national oil system over to a modern system that can handle natural gas and ethanol.

So it goes.


great point.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #316 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
I'm DEFINITELY in cut-and-paste mode:

Thanks. Shows he has some sense.
post #317 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Pagans believe in gods and spirits. Atheists, by definition, do not believe in God. An atheist would hardly have a witch at his wedding. Atheism is not a religion.


An atheist, by default, has made himself god. The answer for the Atheist to question of unity as the sum of all particulars remains. In politics, the atheist is as neutral as the Christian, the Buddist, the Pagan, the Muslim, etc, etc, etc.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #318 of 402
Could you guys start a new thread?
post #319 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Fostering competition with taxes/tax breaks? I don't get what you're referring to.


I was thinking last night, duh!! Why should the elderly have to pay??

So I guess that calls into question the hypocracy of the American public school system, and why people whould chose to go around it---why, when America, that supposedly has no established religion, teaches both ethics and natural science in ways that directly contradict, and are completely offensive to large segements of Americans?

When these groups protest, they are derided as imbiciles, and told to "deal with it". The free exercise of their religion in the public school system is not permitted---it is actually against the law.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #320 of 402
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Could you guys start a new thread?


Sorry about that, I'm done.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
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