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Bush *jokes* about not finding WMD... - Page 3

post #81 of 287
I find the jokes in bad taste also. There's really no way around it because the subject-matter in question is still very much a serious issue, one which lives are at stake the very moment Bush is making jokes. It's putrid.

You want to joke about economic policy or ties to lobbyists or whatever else, FINE. It's OK. You don't joke about the fact that you started a war for the wrong reasons and people are DYING over it. That's just not funny. Period.

As for Kerry vs. Bush. It's almost as bad as Gore vs. Bush but not quite IMO. I will almost certainly vote for Kerry, whatever his flaws may be. I'll tell you why: because no matter which mistakes he might make during his presidency, his very presence will earn back some of the respect for the position that Bush has lost.

He may or may not be great for the economy, but he won't be worse than Bush.

He may or may not have great foreign policies, but he won't be worse than Bush.

He may or may not help fix healthcare, but.... you get the idea.


Kerry isn't likely to do anything so badly, that I actually consider moving to British Columbia or Ontario, simply because genuinely fear what comes next.
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post #82 of 287
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by ipodandimac
i hate american double standards

post iraq:
"hey everybody make fun of the president for not finding wmd's!!!!!"

after president makes jokes about himself:
"wmd's are not a funny topic. how could our president say such a bad thing about himself regarding them?????"

and another one run into the ground:
"families of the victims of 9/11 blah blah blah...."

9/11 happened and the problems are being fixed--move on and dont dwell on the past.

if youre gonna make fun of the president, dont b**ch about him making fun of himself.

Ridiculing the President is one thing. The President ridiculing himself is fine, but for him to tread lightly on the now defunct premise for going to war is completely unconscionable. You don't *joke* about the fact that your main reason for going to war was wrong- especially when that decision resulted in nearly 600 American soldier deaths, thousands of wounds, and incredibly 9000-10,000 Iraqi civilian deaths.

HAHAHA!
post #83 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
No it's not. Totally different situation, for a ridiculous number of reasons.

Pakistan would not hand over Khan because the US doesn't want him to. The US wants to keep the status quo in pakistan, and that part is not at all particular to the Bush admin.


Sure we do. Here's just one example:

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040308fa_fact

Just because you haven't looked for info and/or found it doesn't mean public channels aren't saturated.

Now, the current admin is to blame for letting it go on as long as it did. The admin's focus was in the wrong place.

Considering the status quo in Pakistan consists of someone who has not lobbed all those nukes, at India, that is probably a good thing.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #84 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
No it's not. Totally different situation, for a ridiculous number of reasons.

Pakistan would not hand over Khan because the US doesn't want him to. The US wants to keep the status quo in pakistan, and that part is not at all particular to the Bush admin.


Sure we do. Here's just one example:

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040308fa_fact

Just because you haven't looked for info and/or found it doesn't mean public channels aren't saturated.

Now, the current admin is to blame for letting it go on as long as it did. The admin's focus was in the wrong place.

yes yes the typical I'm not informed because I disagree bit...

copy and paste.
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post #85 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by giant

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040308fa_fact

Now, the current admin is to blame for letting it go on as long as it did. The admin's focus was in the wrong place.

I agree. The nuclear black market is so dangerous it is not even funny.

Quote:
But I was absolutely struck by what the Libyans were able to buy. Whats on the market is absolutely horrendous. Its a Mafia-type business, with corruption and secrecy.
I.A.E.A. inspectors, to their dismay, even found in Libya precise blueprints for the design and construction of a half-ton nuclear weapon. Its a sweet little bomb, put together by engineers who know how to assemble a weapon, an official in Vienna told me. No question itll work. Just dig a hole and test it. Its too big and too heavy for a Scud, but itll go into a family car. Its a terrorists dream.

So what happens when one of these car bombs goes off in Israel? How will the world react to that?

Quote:
This is a question of survival, the diplomat said, with a caustic smile. He added, Iraq is laughable in comparison with this issue. The Bush Administration was hunting the shadows instead of the prey.

Another nonproliferation official depicted the challenge facing the I.A.E.A. inspection regime as a seismic shiftthe globalization of the nuclear world. The official said, We have to move from inspecting declared sites to Where does this shit come from?

I think it is really strange that we have spent so much time in Iraq for the reasons of "WMD" as said by Bush while in the rest of the world WMD has been spreading so fast it is cause for real concern.

Quote:
At this point, the international official asked me, in all seriousness, Why hasnt A. Q. Khan been taken out by Israel or the United States?

Quote:
Robert Gallucci, a former United Nations weapons inspector who is now dean of the Georgetown University School of Foreign Service, calls A. Q. Khan the Johnny Appleseed of the nuclear-arms race. Gallucci, who is a consultant to the C.I.A. on proliferation issues, told me, Bad as it is with Iran, North Korea, and Libya having nuclear-weapons material, the worst part is that they could transfer it to a non-state group. Thats the biggest concern, and the scariest thing about all thisthat Pakistan could work with the worst terrorist groups on earth to build nuclear weapons. Theres nothing more important than stopping terrorist groups from getting nuclear weapons. The most dangerous country for the United States now is Pakistan, and second is Iran. Gallucci went on, We havent been this vulnerable since the British burned Washington in 1814.

All quotes taken from link provided by giant above.

Fellowship
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Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

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post #86 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Considering the status quo in Pakistan consists of someone who has not lobbed all those nukes, at India, that is probably a good thing.

It probably is a good thing, for a lot of reasons. But we are supporting a dictator who is becoming increasingly unpopular, so there could be some major problems.

Unfortunately, the current administration has been so obsessed with phantoms and fantasies that that haven't been able to focus an quarter of the attention and resources this deserves.
post #87 of 287
Addressing the actual subject of the thread:

I thought the jokes were tasteless and inappropriate for this venue. I'm having trouble thinking of some sort of context where it would be funny, but I'm sure it's possible. Just not the way it was done here.

To joke about the non existence of WMD in Iraq is to joke about the lives lost in Iraq trying to recover those non existent weapons.
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post #88 of 287
I would like to chime-in with my thoughts on WMD, which you might or might not want to discuss.

I believe if there were WMD in iraq, then they would have been found about a week after they captured Saddam. If you assume that Saddam knew the locations of some WMD, the US interrogators would have learned their location using (and here's the controversial bit) any, and whatever means possible, by this I primarily mean truth drugging.

I doubt that such measures in an important face-saving, world changing issue, is beyond comprehension when we are dealing with who we have about what we want to know. It would simply be stupid* not to use whatever means necessary to extract the information, regardless of international law. Period.

There is no argument that will wash with me that would convince me otherwise. They have Saddam, there are still no WMD. Therefore there are no WMD.

*as in logic, not my opinion.
post #89 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
I think it is really strange that we have spent so much time in Iraq for the reasons of "WMD" as said by Bush while in the rest of the world WMD has been spreading so fast it is cause for real concern.

Which is exactly what I was saying a year ago before the war:
Quote:
Originally posted by giant in March 03
Pakistan poses, by many degrees of magnitude, a much greater threat of terrorism (and nuclear at that) than Iraq ever will. Not to mention that Pakistan is the main supplier of nuclear tech to NOKOR. Perhaps the Admin is 'keeping it's friends close and enemies closer,' but the pseudo-hawks in the public apparently have not realized that while all of the accusations thrown at Iraq are shaky at extreme best, they fit pakistan like a glove.

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...tan#post314924
Quote:
Originally posted by giant in Feb 03

Also, what ever happened to pakistan? Last time I chacked, not only did they provide North Korea with the technology for nuclear warheads, but many in the nuclear program are sympathizers to militant islamists. If there is a treat from anywhere, it is from there. ... Kind of shows you how Iraq really isn't our threat, ay?

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...tan#post213637
post #90 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by giant

Very impressive giant

fellows
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Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

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Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #91 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
Very impressive giant

fellows

I'm impressed as well . . .
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #92 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by ipodandimac
i hate american double standards

post iraq:
"hey everybody make fun of the president for not finding wmd's!!!!!"

after president makes jokes about himself:
"wmd's are not a funny topic. how could our president say such a bad thing about himself regarding them?????"

and another one run into the ground:
"families of the victims of 9/11 blah blah blah...."

9/11 happened and the problems are being fixed--move on and dont dwell on the past.

if youre gonna make fun of the president, dont b**ch about him making fun of himself.

These characterizations of what people are saying about the issues you list (post iraq, jokes, etc) are missing the point entirely.

If this was what peole were actually saying and thinking, or the flippant attitude with which they were said, then I would be in agreement with you . . . however, I think it would probably be in your best interest, and the country's as a whole, if you, and the country, were to look reflectively on the reasons why people, (including many Conservatives here and elsewhere) are questioning Bush . . . and questioning him on serious serious serious issues!

get informed!
and don't lick the arse of BushCo simply because you are identidied with that 'party'
many in that party are sick of this manifestation of the party . . . and I should think they would be: look what kind of untrustworthy, calculating, extreme plotters are now representing the GOP
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #93 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
Very impressive giant

Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
I'm impressed as well . . .

Thanks, but I don't deserve any credit. All it's about is digesting public information from varied sources, forming opinions after learning the facts and then always trying to prove your own beliefs wrong to see if they hold water.

That's the great thing about internet, usenet and listserv discussions and blogs. You can get other, more dogmatic people to do that last part for you.
post #94 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
get informed!
and don't lick the arse of BushCo simply because you are identidied with that 'party'
many in that party are sick of this manifestation of the party . . . and I should think they would be: look what kind of untrustworthy, calculating, extreme plotters are now representing the GOP

Good Lord. His post was neither pro conservative nor ill informed.
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post #95 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
Good Lord. His post was neither pro conservative nor ill informed.

Yeah . .. yer right . . but I couldn't help myself . .
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #96 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Thanks, but I don't deserve any credit.

Sure you do, I wish more americans were informed to a higher level.

Fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #97 of 287
The fact that many people supported the idea to fight Iraq, independent of any justifications provided by Bush, does not make them misinformed about the reality of the Pakistani situation.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

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post #98 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
The fact that many people supported the idea to fight Iraq, independent of any justifications provided by Bush, does not make them misinformed about the reality of the Pakistani situation.

If you were a guessing man what percentage of Americans would you guess are familiar with A. Q. Kahn? Extend that farther,,, How many Americans do you believe thought of Pakistan as a problem in feb and mar of 2003 as giant did?

I would bet less than 7% of americans have even heard of Kahn. I would also bet that less than that understand the pinch and the deal Bush "has" with the president of Pakistan.

Bush himself was asked in an interview once who the president of Pakistan was and he said..... "The general" he was asked a followup question as to what the name was if he knew the name and he said again... "The general" and made a face like let's move on with this interview.

Sad really,

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #99 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
If you were a guessing man what percentage of Americans would you guess are familiar with A. Q. Kahn?

Few. But point me to where giant named A.Q. Kahn specifically in any of his old posts.

Quote:
Extend that farther,,, How many Americans do you believe thought of Pakistan as a problem in feb and mar of 2003 as giant did?

Lots. Remember the recent flare up over Kashmir for the umpteenth time?
What about when they were both setting off nukes?

Quote:
I would bet less than 7% of americans have even heard of Kahn. I would also bet that less than that understand the pinch and the deal Bush "has" with the president of Pakistan.

I'll take your bet on that first claim. As for the second, you're probably right. But I'll bet that less than seven percent of the people know how to change their transmission on their vehicle like I do. Does that mean I'm of higher intelligence than them? Certainly not.

Quote:
Bush himself was asked in an interview once who the president of Pakistan was and he said..... "The general" he was asked a followup question as to what the name was if he knew the name and he said again... "The general" and made a face like let's move on with this interview.

Sad really,

okay? relevance?
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

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post #100 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
The fact that many people supported the idea to fight Iraq, independent of any justifications provided by Bush, does not make them misinformed about the reality of the Pakistani situation.

The fact is that the things I was saying with regard to Iraq and pakistan were very unpopular at the time and met with comments that treated them as conspiracy theories. Pakistan was generally viewed in the light the Bush admin portrayed it in: that it was our strong ally in the war against terror and did everything in its power to attack terrorists within pakistan's borders.

There is no denying that almost across the board, Iraq was viewed as the main WMD threat to the US and the world, particularly in terms of terrorists getting their hands on WMDs.

All of this ignored the facts that are now becoming undeniable.

And the biggest problem: while this admin has waged this war against Iraq, nuke parts were getting shipped around the globe in american c-130s and al-qaeda has been relatively left alone in pakistan to regroup and work on future attacks.

There should be no need for justification for a major war in such a volitile global situation to be wholly independent from the one(s) put forward by the governing administration. That in itself is a MAJOR problem.
post #101 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
The fact that many people supported the idea to fight Iraq, independent of any justifications provided by Bush, does not make them misinformed about the reality of the Pakistani situation.

Oh, and I can easily point out that here today you claimed that major information regarding Pakistan was not public, when it is actually extremely out in the open, if one just looks.

Unfortunately, often people do not look and form opinions anyway.
post #102 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
The fact that many people supported the idea to fight Iraq, independent of any justifications provided by Bush, does not make them misinformed about the reality of the Pakistani situation.

I wasn't just talking about the Pakistan situation . . but generally, if people could here the issues rather than just how FOX thinks of the issues . .. or, doesn't even talk of them at all . . .

there is so much information about how BushCo mishandled the country on so many levels, Iraq, Terrorism, as well as in other realms: Environment, Medicair, Spending on and on . . . . and none of it is getting seen or digested or reflected on at all . . .

& people who just IDENTIFY with the PARTY, well, it doesn't matter what comes out about Bush, or from Bush, or from any body that was once in BushCo . . it is all good . . ..
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #103 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
The fact is that the things I was saying with regard to Iraq and pakistan were very unpopular at the time and met with comments that treated them as conspiracy theories. Pakistan was generally viewed in the light the Bush admin portrayed it in: that it was our strong ally in the war against terror and did everything in its power to attack terrorists within pakistan's borders.

There is no denying that almost across the board, Iraq was viewed as the main WMD threat to the US and the world, particularly in terms of terrorists getting their hands on WMDs.

All of this ignored the facts that are now becoming undeniable.

And the biggest problem: while this admin has waged this war against Iraq, nuke parts were getting shipped around the globe in american c-130s and al-qaeda has been relatively left alone in pakistan to regroup and work on future attacks.

There should be no need for justification for a major war in such a volitile global situation to be wholly independent from the one(s) put forward by the governing administration. That in itself is a MAJOR problem.

And I agree with all of that. But what is the point? To reinforce you're own position to yourself, or just an "I told you so"?
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post #104 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
And I agree with all of that. But what is the point? To reinforce you're own position to yourself, or just an "I told you so"?

Let me make it a little clearer:
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
The fact that many people supported the idea to fight Iraq, independent of any justifications provided by Bush, does not make them misinformed about the reality of the Pakistani situation.

Yes it does.
post #105 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
& people who just IDENTIFY with the PARTY, well, it doesn't matter what comes out about Bush, or from Bush, or from any body that was once in BushCo . . it is all good . . ..

And the exact same thing can be said for all those who see only bad all the time. There are very few people who post in these threads with any sort of neutrality.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

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post #106 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
And I agree with all of that. But what is the point? To reinforce you're own position to yourself, or just an "I told you so"?

You are taking this all too personal the way you frame your replies.

In another post above of yours you ask if you are smarter because you know your transmission better than most and you asked does that make you more intelligent. That is not the point.

My point earlier when I said I wish more people had a higher level of understanding was simply so we can ask the right questions of those in our government who should represent we the people. First we the people must be engaged however if we are to preserve our freedom loving democracy. When the people are unaware, deceived, blinded to what is going on we take a steep risk of losing our democracy as we know it.

I am not trying to prove anything, I suspect giant is not trying to prove anything.

I am only saying the world is a dangerous place and we need to do what we can to understand where we stand in this world.

with respect,

fellows
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #107 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Let me make it a little clearer:

Yes it does.

No, it does not.

I'm sure to you this is the case, but in this instance you are simply wrong.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

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post #108 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
I'm sure to you this is the case, but in this instance you are simply wrong.

Well, considering the Bush admin tried every justification in the book, I'm really curious what this mystery justification of your is. Was you favorite candy manufactured there or something and you couldn't get it because of the sanctions?

Because to think that you access to al-hasim gumdrops is somehow more important than the globalization of nuclear tech, particularly to terrorists, is really a big sign of being uninformed.
post #109 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
You are taking this all too personal the way you frame your replies.

Actually I'm not taking any of it personally.

Quote:
In another post above of yours you ask if you are smarter because you know your transmission better than most and you asked does that make you more intelligent. That is not the point.

My point earlier when I said I wish more people had a higher level of understanding was simply so we can ask the right questions of those in our government who should represent we the people. First we the people must be engaged however if we are to preserve our freedom loving democracy. When the people are unaware, deceived, blinded to what is going on we take a steep risk of losing our democracy as we know it.

It is the point. You said giant had some higher knowledge for pointing out things that were quite common knowledge. People disagree about wether we should've went into Iraq or not, wether Pakistan should've been taken into account before Iraq... etc. This doesn't make anyone more or less informed or intelligent. It means people have different opinions on the situations and about the need to deal with those situations.

Quote:
I am not trying to prove anything, I suspect giant is not trying to prove anything.

I don't think you're trying to prove anything, nor do i think giant is. It was that his post of links to former posts where he has "right" was pretty much out of context of the discussion. It was just a reply to your post where he said "You're right. And I was right too a while back. Look and see."

Quote:
I am only saying the world is a dangerous place and we need to do what we can to understand where we stand in this world.

okay, but I'm not really debating that, rather the implication we all need to reach giants level of intellect.
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post #110 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
rather the implication we all need to reach giants level of intellect.

He's not saying that, nor am I. Note my initial post in response.

You have a grudge. Fine.

Thanks anyway, fellowship. I guess it goes to show that you can't say anything nice about anyone on AO without a firestorm.
post #111 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Well, considering the Bush admin tried every justification in the book, I'm really curious what this mystery justification of your is. Was you favorite candy manufactured there or something and you couldn't get it because of the sanctions?

Justification is not the point. The point is that if someone believes it is better to first have Saddam Hussein removed from his position of leadership in Iraq than it is to deal with pakistan, that does not make them misinformed. They simply have a different opinion as to the order in which to approach all the situations that need resolution.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

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post #112 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
[B]He's not saying that, nor am I. Note my initial post in response.[/b

Yes, it's exactly what he said:

Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Thanks, but I don't deserve any credit

Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
Sure you do, I wish more americans were informed to a higher level.

Fellows

Quote:
You have a grudge. Fine.

Why do you say that?

Quote:
Thanks anyway, fellowship. I guess it goes to show that you can't say anything nice about anyone on AO without a firestorm.

Sure he can. If my disagreement with you and him equates to a firestorm, then I guess you're right. But if my opposing viewpoint is respected in the least, then it is not. Notice I have been civil and mature with the both of you. What else should I do?
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

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Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

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post #113 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
Justification is not the point ... They simply have a different opinion as to the order in which to approach all the situations that need resolution.

Justification is entirely the point. We aren't throwing darts at a map. The 'war on terror' and all foreign policy should be calculated in detail.

So where is the justification with neglecting al-qaeda and the situations in pakistan to go after Iraq? The situation in pakistan was and still is urgent. Iraq was not. Saddam was progressively losing his grip on his country. There were no weapons. The top section of his country was already out of his control, we had numerous groups we could have used to unseat him and the massacres that were going on in the 80s and after the first gulf war were not currently being executed.

Contrast that to pakistan, where al-qaeda was and is holed-up and nulcear tech was being spread globally. Afghanistan has had strong internal struggles, so much so that it now looks like Osama, Al-Zawahiri and Omar may have possibly returned.

Normally one would say hindsight is 20/20, but as I pointed out, at least a few of us recognized these things at the time.
post #114 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Justification is entirely the point. We aren't throwing darts at a map. The 'war on terror' and all foreign policy should be calculated in detail.

So where is the justification with neglecting al-qaeda and the situations in pakistan to go after Iraq. The situation in pakistan was and still is urgent. Iraq was not. Saddam was progressively losing his grip on his country. There were no weapons. The top section of his country was already out of his control, we had numerous groups we could have used to unseat him and the massacres that were going on in the 80s and after the first gulf war were not currently being executed.

Contrast that to pakistan, where al-qaeda was and is holed-up and nulcear tech was being spread globally. Afghanistan has had strong internal struggles, so much so that it now looks like Osama, Al-Zawahiri and Omar may have possibly returned.

Giant, please take a deep breath for a second.


Okay, now you asked for my personal justification, and I said my own personal justification was not the point.

My point all along has been that just because someone chooses not think that dealing with Pakistan before Iraq was the way to go does not make them misinformed. It is their opinion and they have every right to come to that opinion and not be considered of lower intelligence for doing so.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
post #115 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
My point all along has been that just because someone chooses not think that dealing with Pakistan before Iraq was the way to go does not make them misinformed. It is their opinion and they have every right to come to that opinion and not be considered of lower intelligence for doing so.

No one is saying that other people can't have opinions, but opinions that do not deal with the facts are wrong.

For example: someone might hold the opnion that the best way to drive a car foward would be to first put it into neutral, turn off the engine and then press on the gas. They are entitled to hold that opinion, but that opinion is not correct no matter which way you slice it.

Just because someone has the right to formulate an opinion absolutely does not automatically make that opinion accurate.

Another example. Hoagland has the opinion that NASA is hiding evidence of alien civilizations on mars, and he has the right to that opinion, but his opinion is clearly not in line with the facts. (see link)

http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc...and/index.html
post #116 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Pakistan would not hand over Khan because the US doesn't want him to.

This is the leap in logic that simply eludes me, Giant.

Aside from the general "Bush is evil" doctrine your side holds to, I can't see how this thinking holds up to scrutiny.

The same crowd saying 'Bush should have acted on this' is the EXACT SAME crowd that's always crowing about why the US should not act unilaterally, and work through UN channels.

Furthermore, you seem to prefer to believe the fiction that Bush is involved in a "conspiracy" here rather than the logical assumption that Musharraf can't touch this guy without setting off a revolution in a country with 150 million people.

With China, India, the Koreas and Russia in the mix, I would say Bush is doing the only prudent thing he can. Which is to keep this thing from spiralling out of control.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #117 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
No one is saying that other people can't have opinions, but opinions that do not deal with the facts are wrong.

For example: someone might hold the opnion that the best way to drive a car foward would be to first put it into neutral, turn off the engine and then press on the gas. They are entitled to hold that opinion, but that opinion is not correct no matter which way you slice it.

Just because someone has the right to formulate an opinion absolutely does not automatically make that opinion accurate.

Another example. Hoagland has the opinion that NASA is hiding evidence of alien civilizations on mars, and he has the right to that opinion, but his opinion is clearly not in line with the facts. (see link)

http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc...and/index.html

And I never claimed a different opinion was automatically correct or of equal value to others. But you must also recognize the fact that despite your obviously well researched opinion on many things political, you are not always going to be correct, or the most accurate interpreter of every situation.

When people are presented with several issues that need dealing with, and decide on different ways of dealing with them, that does not make one person more right than the other. There is more than one road to any given destination.

Quote:
Let me make it a little clearer:

Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
The fact that many people supported the idea to fight Iraq, independent of any justifications provided by Bush, does not make them misinformed about the reality of the Pakistani situation.

Yes it does.

If you think that statement is correct and justified, then I'll just agree to leave it at that.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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post #118 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
Yes, it's exactly what he said:

Fellows said giant was more informed, not more intelligent. There is a difference between knowledge and wisdom and all that. Ignorance and stupidity, genius and learned....etc.
orange you just glad?
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orange you just glad?
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post #119 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by Wrong Robot
Fellows said giant was more informed, not more intelligent. There is a difference between knowledge and wisdom and all that. Ignorance and stupidity, genius and learned....etc.

Yes. I know. Perhaps I have muddled it a bit.
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
Reply
Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. - Albert Einstein

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If that were the case, then Microsoft would...
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post #120 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
Justification is not the point. The point is that if someone believes it is better to first have Saddam Hussein removed from his position of leadership in Iraq than it is to deal with pakistan, that does not make them misinformed. They simply have a different opinion as to the order in which to approach all the situations that need resolution.

Sorry but justifacation is everything. The president had to lie to get the ball rolling on this. That makes it wrong no matter what the outcome.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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