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Power5 based 975 90nm chips to ramp in May? - Page 4

post #121 of 149
Thread Starter 
Well the eMac was not going to get a G5, yet. The iMac/or what ever replaces it, is getting one, but Apple has to wait for IBM. It should have happened in March, but the IBM issues put a stop to that. The PowerMac has to have an upgrade at the same time the iMac gets the G5.

September was Steve's goal for releasing the 3.0Ghz PM. If IBM has the Power5 dirivative ready togo then we look to June. IBM is going to start announcing their Power5 servers today I believe. If I remember correctly they will start shipping in early June.

I believe that Apple will skip a generation of PowerMacs and go with the WOW factor. If one thing is on Steve's mind, it is that Apple will release a 3.0Ghz PM before October 1st.
post #122 of 149
I tend to agree with you.

My take on the portable upgrades is this: Apple didn't have a choice in the matter. Those who found the upgrades to be good are simply gullable. This current rev of the laptop has this machine in the same postion as the old G4 desktop machines. A nice machine that people make excuses for, furhter the machine can not jsutify its price based on performance.

The 970 was certianly a good rescue chip but that is abotu it. Once again if one gets by the hype you see that it really is not an outstanding all around performer based on clock rate. Sure it is a good vector processor but so is the G4. It is not a chip that will allow Apple to maintain performance leadership. The 90nm version was even more of a shock if one expects it to go into Apples high performance lines.

I suspect that this processor has always been targetted at the low end and embedded end of Apples hardware. The cache size and power usage of the 970FX would make for nice iMacs. Since the G5 PowerMac will not maintain market leadership with a speed bumped 970, there has to be an alternative for the near future. So I expect to see a new chip in the next rev of the G5 Towers.

As to G5 PowerBooks to me the question is what can Apple do to deliver high performance and still maintain the PORTABLE aspect of the PowerBook. I suspect that right now Motorola has the best solution for the next rev of the PowerBook. I just don't see the 970FX going into such a machine anytime soon. In any event the Powerbooks realy need to be running processor in the +2GHz range to place well in the market and frankly it doesn't matter if that is a G4 or a G5. What matters is perfromance at the lowest possible power usage.

As to the 100 million mark with the songs I look at that as a goal. Apple did amazingly well in a new market with iTunes and has a considerable portion of the market. This is not the same thing as telling a crowd of people that 3GHz will be here within a year. Steve must have had something up his sleeves with repsect to this statement. Since we have yet to see any back pedalling there must still be something up that sleeve. I just don't think it will be the 970FX.

My thinking right know is that Apple had hoped to have had the 970FX in a greater number of machines already. As is the nature of business something went wrong. How well Apple handles this problem and recovers from it will paint a portait of just how well run the company is.

Quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
Wizard, I think there's something in what you're saying.

>>>>>>>>>>>Sorry about the massive snip

Lemon Bon Bon
post #123 of 149
Quote:
Originally posted by oldmacfan
IBM is going to start announcing their Power5 servers today I believe. If I remember correctly they will start shipping in early June.

Yes, you are correct. Read about the announcement here.
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post #124 of 149
I haven't seen you post in a while so I'm going to go easy on ya

Quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
But...as always...the PC World has moved on while Apple have been static. Don't they ever learn?

Agreed... but apple can't move like amd can. They rely on others to make the chips for them... AMD makes the chips themselves. As far as a battle of processors... that isn't in apple's hands at all.

Quote:
And...considering that the AMD64s can be had for half the price of the dual 2 gig G5 PowerMac then surely it would be prudent to address the consumer range with the G5 as soon as is possible.

Single processor, cheap mem controller, 1/2 the bus speed, 1/2 the ram

Quote:
Personally, considering the G4 debacle(insert word of choice...) I would have thought, hoped that Apple would have co-developed a decent PPC roadmap with the new A.I Alliance. As a catch-up strategy, I would have hoped Apple would have the '975' out for the PowerMacs this Summer and quickly bung the 970fx in everything from eMacs to iMacs to Powerbooks. Do that? And Apple would have a decent chance of breaking the 1 million units per quarter barrier.

The fact that it's May. No iMac update. No G5s in Powerbooks (I was amazed at how the recent G4 Powerbooks were lauded and raved over on these boards...it may be stunningly slim but it's getting whomped in 3d benchmarks and photoshop by latest Wintel laptops and their screens are brighter... But I'm not sure a 1.6 G5 fx would offer compelling performance edge over the 1.5 gig G4. Worth waiting the extra time then and get a 2 gig G5fx or G5 II in there?) eMac updated but no G5.

I take it you haven't been paying very close attention. IBM had major yield problems with the 970fx. They couldn't even keep up with the Xserve update. How would you have expected them to supply for the iMac / powerBook too? The 970 runs WAY too hot to be able to stick it in either of those cases. Its still not perfect in the g5 case for crying outloud.

Quote:
I think Apple have really got to sort out the desktop line above the eMac. (Which, itself must be going LCD soon? It's still the ugly duckling of the Apple line.)

I just hope Steve doesn't have to climb down on the 3 gig promise like he did the Pepsi 100 million promise. Ouch.

It wouldn't be his fault if he had to. I'm about 50/50 on the 3gig talk right now. That is completely up to IBM. Apple definitely needs to do something about 11 month products staying the same damn price. That is insanity. How can someone be in the tech world and say that an 11 month old product is worth JUST as much as the day it came out. Are you kidding me!?!?!? At least slap a 9800 pro in them or something to compensate for the depreciation value.

From everything I've read from IBM and Apple, they had plans to release the PowerMacs with g5s back in March. Also they planned on faster Xserves... again ... not their fault.

 

 

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The reason why they are analysts is because they failed at running businesses.

 

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The reason why they are analysts is because they failed at running businesses.

 

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post #125 of 149
Well it's here!
Power5
post #126 of 149
Quote:
Single processor, cheap mem controller, 1/2 the bus speed, 1/2 the ram

...half the price and half the performance?

Lemon Bon Bon
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post #127 of 149
Quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
...half the price and half the performance?

Lemon Bon Bon

Point was,

If you really want the same performance you pay about the same amount of money.

 

 

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The reason why they are analysts is because they failed at running businesses.

 

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post #128 of 149
...and my point was that you can have much of the PowerMac's performance for alot cheaper?

Lemon Bon Bon
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post #129 of 149
Interesting that IBM's new Power5 is a 130-nm chip.
Or at least interesting to me.

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post #130 of 149
Quote:
Originally posted by tink
Interesting that IBM's new Power5 is a 130-nm chip.
Or at least interesting to me.

This is a server chip and it needs to be reliable. It cannot be based on the latest technology (90 nm), especially if this technology has still issues.
post #131 of 149
Quote:
Originally posted by PB
This is a server chip and it needs to be reliable. It cannot be based on the latest technology (90 nm), especially if this technology has still issues.

I was actually thinking the same thing right as I shot off that last post.

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post #132 of 149
Quote:
Originally posted by PB
This is a server chip and it needs to be reliable. It cannot be based on the latest technology (90 nm), especially if this technology has still issues.

maybe it's just way to difficult to start to produce this chip and its 275.000.000 transistors based on a 90nm process. maybe it has nothing to do with reliability but with can it be done. the difference between the 970fx and the power 5 is what... 220 million transistors for one processor. try to get good yields on that.

they have the processor design ready and are in need to produce and sell them asap. so they choose the cheapest (ie desent yields) way to produce them.

my 2 eurocents
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post #133 of 149
Another thought, IBM needs the 90 nm production line for the 970fx to make it more attractive not only for Apple, but for other customers as well. The G5 goes in a server that sells for a premium, so they can absorb the extra production cost of the larger process easer with these computers.
post #134 of 149
Did IBM ever say the Power5 was a 90nm processor? I don't recall them saying so. I thought they started pre-production on these before fishkill at 130nm, and never even hinted at 90 for this. I'm not saying that's fact. I'm saying I don't remember it being any different.
What I wonder is if IBM can nail down the problems on a 3GHz G5 @ 90nm far enough before WWDC to have a reliable shipping date.
Personally I don't think they'll do it. And I certainly don't see them skipping 3GHz for some WOW factor processor. I would probably be shocked if they got within 500MHz of Intel.
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post #135 of 149
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
And I certainly don't see them skipping 3GHz for some WOW factor processor.

If you reread my post, I never said Apple would skip 3Ghz. I said Apple was going to skip a generation of PM's, and that 3Ghz would be the WOW factor.

Quote:
I believe that Apple will skip a generation of PowerMacs and go with the WOW factor. If one thing is on Steve's mind, it is that Apple will release a 3.0Ghz PM before October 1st.
post #136 of 149
Anybody got any benches on the Power5 line?

ie vs a Power 4

vs an Itannic 2

vs an Opteron?

vs a 970?

Lemon Bon Bon
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post #137 of 149
Quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
Anybody got any benches on the Power5 line?

I haven't seen any, And IBM probably won't release any until they release Power5 based pSeries (p5?) machines.Why? I don't think IBM wants to compare their i5 line to any competitor because as far as IBM's concerned there are none.. On the other hand, there are plenty of competitors to the pSeries line of servers and workstations so I guess we'll see some serious ass kicking comming Itaniums direction as soon as the p5 are released.
post #138 of 149
Quote:
I guess we'll see some serious ass kicking comming Itaniums direction as soon as the p5 are released

That's what I'm hoping...

...and that this will translate into the '975' trouncing the pathologically pipelined Prescott into the ground.

This is Apple's big chance to really close the 'gighz-gap'.

Lemon Bon Bon
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post #139 of 149
It would be intresting to see how 970 and Power 5 compete ´cause that would be a forecast on what we can expect from the Power 5 derivate (975 or whatever).

"Interesting times a head my freinds"

Maclogic
post #140 of 149
Quote:
Originally posted by maclogic
It would be intresting to see how 970 and Power 5 compete ´cause that would be a forecast on what we can expect from the Power 5 derivate (975 or whatever).

"Interesting times a head my freinds"

Maclogic

Oh sure, just like the Power4 forecasts what we can expect from the PPC970.

Not.
"Spec" is short for "specification" not "speculation".
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post #141 of 149
Quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
Anybody got any benches on the Power5 line?

ie vs a Power 4

...

Lemon Bon Bon

No benchmarks yet, but IBM claims that the POWER5 series may be up to four times as fast as POWER4 systems.
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post #142 of 149
Quote:

I probably can, and then some. Take a 1 GHz singe core POWER4 and compare it to a hyperthreaded dual core POWER5 at 2 GHz..
post #143 of 149
Quote:
Sure it is a good vector processor but so is the G4.

Its vector performance is also aided by its much more impressive FSB. A modern interconnect (compared to the G4's MaxBus) and a decent FPU are probably the 970's strong points.
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post #144 of 149
Quote:
Originally posted by Henriok
I probably can, and then some. Take a 1 GHz singe core POWER4 and compare it to a hyperthreaded dual core POWER5 at 2 GHz..

You can probably compare dual core to dual core and still see the 4x performance improvement. On the tasks IBM is measuring their SMT implementation runs 2 threads at full speed, so the POWER5 has 4 threads at double the clock rate plus various optimizations like an on-chip memory controller.
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post #145 of 149
Quote:
You can probably compare dual core to dual core and still see the 4x performance improvement. On the tasks IBM is measuring their SMT implementation runs 2 threads at full speed, so the POWER5 has 4 threads at double the clock rate plus various optimizations like an on-chip memory controller.

4 threads. Twice the clock. Sundry optimisations. On Chip memory controller. (Is that what the Athlon 64 has?)

If the PowerPC variety 9xx has two thirds of that then it will eat the 970 and Prescott and Athlon 64 for breakfast.

I pray to Gawd that Apple's 3 gig busting 9xx is ready by the fall.

Awesome. Could be. (Imagine the snap on X? )

Lemon Bon Bon
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post #146 of 149
Quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
On Chip memory controller. (Is that what the Athlon 64 has?)

I think this is an Opteron feature.
post #147 of 149
Quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
If the PowerPC variety 9xx has two thirds of that then it will eat the 970 and Prescott and Athlon 64 for breakfast.

It wil eat current processors for breakfast.
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post #148 of 149
Quote:
Originally posted by Programmer
It wil eat current processors for breakfast.

I find you comment rather cryptic. Could you elaborate a little more?
post #149 of 149
The CPU market will not stand still is all it means. Of course, there might be some specifics behind it.
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