or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › this is appalling, abuse of Iraqi prisoners
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

this is appalling, abuse of Iraqi prisoners - Page 5

post #161 of 613
In an article by Robert Bastian in today's L.A. Times, the author mentions two experiments conducted in the 1970s mention of which is both relevant and timely.

extracted:

Quote:
In terms of aspirations, Bush is certainly correct: Americans generally do not regard themselves as arrogant, abusive, violent, mean, petty and ignoble. As a matter of empirical, verifiable fact, however, the best social scientific evidence suggests that the president is simply wrong on both counts.

In 1971, for example, Stanford psychology professor Philip G. Zimbardo initiated an experiment in which participating Stanford students were designated either as prisoners or guards, with guards told to maintain order. After only a few days, the project had to be terminated prematurely because the guards were, with no apparent motivation other than fulfilling their roles, becoming uncomfortably abusive toward the prisoners. What does that say about our "nature"?

In another famous experiment, Yale psychology professor Stanley Milgram told subjects to give electric shocks to a victim in a learning experiment. As the victim an actor in another room who was not actually being shocked gave incorrect answers, the participants were asked to turn the voltage up, even to where the dial read "danger," a point at which the victim could be heard screaming. Although often reluctant, two-thirds of the subjects continued to follow orders to administer shocks.

----snip----

No less a figure than Winston Churchill famously said that "treatment of crime and criminals is one of the most unfailing tests of civilization of any country." If Churchill is right, so, at the moment, are America's critics.

Whole article here:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...mment-opinions

if registered

Not the way we do things in America? Wrong. Looks like its the way the entire world does things, another ugly part of human nature.

"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #162 of 613
LA Times user ID from BugMeNot.com

ID: waxyorg
PW: waxyorg
post #163 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
People seem to be ready to shrug off the perpetrators in the pictures as being mere pawns, just because it is sooo much more juicy to be able to instead put the heat on people higher up the chain.

Well, that 'people,' whomever they may be, does not include me.

There are problems with this situation along the whole chain, but the problems are not all the same.

Some of the problems with the highest leadership are discussed here:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/arc..._05/003853.php

As for the individual soldiers, we need to deal with it on an individual basis. Soldiers are out there being ordered to kill, and by nature some of them will get a kick out of it. Normal moral rules don't apply in the same way. And these folks were not trained to deal with prisoners. If they were ordered to do these things to get them ready for interrogation, it is not far-off to expect them to follow orders they don't necessarily understand or agree with.

This isn't to say that nothing should happen to the reservists, but this is much more complex than just blaming them or Bush.

Quote:
But I don't want to let anyone off the hook. If it is systemic, heads roll all over. "Systemic" doesn't mean just Rumsfeld and Bush but not Lynndie England and her ilk.

Those are just the two well-known end links in a long chain of command.

We agree.
post #164 of 613
Quote:
U.S. soldiers who detained an elderly Iraqi woman last year placed a harness on her, made her crawl on all fours and rode her like a donkey, Prime Minister Tony Blair's personal human rights envoy to Iraq said Wednesday.

The envoy, legislator Ann Clwyd, said she had investigated the claims of the woman in her 70s and believed they were true."

...

"She was held for about six weeks without charge," the envoy told Wednesday's Evening Standard newspaper. "During that time she was insulted and told she was a donkey. A harness was put on her, and an American rode on her back."

Clwyd said the woman has recovered physically but remains traumatized.

"I am satisfied the case has now been resolved satisfactorily," the envoy told British Broadcasting Corp. radio Wednesday. "She got a visit last week from the authorities, and she is about to have her papers and jewelry returned to her."

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...buse&printer=1 via tpm
post #165 of 613
We keep hearing from admin officials and media commentators that the torture and abuse of Iraqi POWs are 'isolated incidents' and do not represent the 'way we do things'. The ICRC has now squashed that one flat:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._redcross_dc_1

Quote:
"Our findings do not allow us to conclude that what we were dealing with at Abu Ghraib were isolated acts of individual members of coalition forces. What we have described is a pattern and a broad system,"

Bush also said recently that he was "appalled" by the recent revelations. How odd. There have been articles on Reuters and elsewhere detailing POW abuse from nearly a year back. Either the President is extraordinarily ill-informed, or he is lying, yet again.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #166 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by New
The US has never had lower respect here. not even during Vietnam.

And I can certainly confirm this from the U.K. perspective, and I am not talking Tony Bliar here.

Someone at a big dinner party (mainly professional people, and some intelligentsia) I went to the other day said, "You just can't take the Americans seriously any more", and just about everyone around the table nodded his head. If I were American I would be *very* concerned, as indeed were the Americans present at same party.

- T. I.
post #167 of 613
Quote:
The pictures I've seen depict conduct - behaviour that is so brutal and so cruel and so inhumane that anyone engaged in it or involved in it would have to be brought to justice

Donald Rumsfeld

Some more quotes from Rumsfeld :

Quote:

There were also "many more photographs and indeed some videos" to come, he warned.

Mr Rumsfeld recognised that his department had been slow to notify Congress about the allegations, but denied that there had been any attempt at a cover-up.

He said reports of abuse had been properly investigated and reported by the military.

He added that he had not realised the seriousness of the allegations until pictures were leaked to journalists.

Mr Rumsfeld told senators: "I failed to recognise how important it was to elevate a matter of such gravity to the highest levels, including to the president and members of Congress."

"I wish I had been able to convey to them the gravity of this before we saw it in the media."

BBC link here

I think it's a disaster for the future of Iraq. This events have totally screwed up the reputation of US army in Iraq. It will be very difficult to fix this.
post #168 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
Donald Rumsfeld
I think it's a disaster for the future of Iraq. This events have totally screwed up the reputation of US army in Iraq. It will be very difficult to fix this.


Totally. I listened to the hearings. Donald seemed very, very down and out in the beginning (I know he hates being in these hearings). After Mcain's questioning the ol' Rummy seemed to return...to his embarrassment (CHAIN OF COMMAND? haven't got the charts? Haven't SEEN the other evidence? Haven't a CLUE as to why the Red Cross has been stating that this SHIT has been going on for over a year?!). Even his cronies in the pentagon could help him out of this ever deepening hole.

He was a broken man after these hearings...he's not going to be Secretary for very long and he Goddamn knows it...hear that telling pause in his response to this question as to whether he SHOULD resign? Put a fork in him...he's done. He'll be the first and Powell will be next (he'll just do it to save his righteous ass).

This administration is falling apart (what about Bush/Cheney? That'll be the next turn of the page...in November). This country is falling apart. We are definitely fucked...and nothing...except total withdraw from Iraq will give us some respect from the total embarrassment this incident has caused in the long run.

/goodnight...let's all hope there will be a new, bright day in America's future again...someday...


A good assessment of the hearings...and Rumsfeld's fate...
I AM THE Royal Pain in the Ass.
Reply
I AM THE Royal Pain in the Ass.
Reply
post #169 of 613
I still say the generals that encouraged this, and the soldiers that did this, should all be hanged if they're found guilty. We have capital punishment, we should use it.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
post #170 of 613
All of you people are ridiculous. This is a controversy that is almost 8 months old.

The military has investigated and is prosecuting those that have done these things. The military also made changes to the way things are done there.

I have brought up repeatedly the atrocities committed by SH, only to be dismissed and marginalized by many of the same people raising a fuss of this comparably minor issue.

Maybe I am just oversimplifying here, but I would rather face a broom stick up my ass over the threat of my whole family and all of their friend being wiped out, or getting dipped it flesh eating acid or any of the other sick torture methods that SH and Co. had in store which inevitably ended in death.

Noone in their right mind thought it was right to do those things to these prisoners, but the level of outrage over criminals and terrorists is a little off balance. I have yet to hear any of you cry over the innocent people that are being burned shredded and incinerated to death by the constant bombings in Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel, in the ME in general, yet alone ask for an apology or resignation of anyone in Hamaas, Hesbulla or AQ!

Selective outrage and fake compassion.

You all should be ashamed of yourself. Seriously.
post #171 of 613
rape and murder now by americans...

yes, selective outrage...ha

i was all for a bullet in saddamit's head (read my posts before the war) but not for a war against iraq...and now the argument of "it is better than what saddamit did" is being thrown about by the repugs...

but we say we can nation build, that we can decide what leaders are allowed in this or that country BECAUSE we are just, fair, a "good" nation concerned only with freedom and truth...

but now we say, "yeah, bad things happen, but at least we are better than a mass murderer like saddamit"...

yeah, thank god we are only raping and killing individuals and not wiping out whole families by dropping bombs on them (oh, have we done that too?)

but at least the iraqi people like us more now that we have freed them

this has all (sadly) been one big shitfest...but, hey, no biggie for me...me and my family are safe and happy and have not seen one change or hardship since this has all started...tis great to be american... truly very happy about that...

g
it's all fun till somebody loses an eye
Reply
it's all fun till somebody loses an eye
Reply
post #172 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by thegelding
rape and murder now by americans...

yes, selective outrage...ha

i was all for a bullet in saddamit's head (read my posts before the war) but not for a war against iraq...and now the argument of "it is better than what saddamit did" is being thrown about by the repugs...

but we say we can nation build, that we can decide what leaders are allowed in this or that country BECAUSE we are just, fair, a "good" nation concerned only with freedom and truth...

but now we say, "yeah, bad things happen, but at least we are better than a mass murderer like saddamit"...

yeah, thank god we are only raping and killing individuals and not wiping out whole families by dropping bombs on them (oh, have we done that too?)

but at least the iraqi people like us more now that we have freed them

this has all (sadly) been one big shitfest...but, hey, no biggie for me...me and my family are safe and happy and have not seen one change or hardship since this has all started...tis great to be american... truly very happy about that...

g

The only problem with your logic is that small number of offenders does not in any way represent the US or it's methods or interests. Plus, these people were and are being dealt with swiftly and publicly, something you won't see among the terrorists and thugs. There is no cover up here.

Wise up. Point your anger and disgust at those that would bring the rest of us a bad name, namely those who perpetrated these acts.
post #173 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Noone in their right mind thought it was right to do those things to these prisoners, but the level of outrage over criminals and terrorists is a little off balance. I have yet to hear any of you cry over the innocent people that are being burned shredded and incinerated to death by the constant bombings in Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel, in the ME in general, yet alone ask for an apology or resignation of anyone in Hamaas, Hesbulla or AQ!

Firstly, how do you know that these people are 'criminals and terrorists'? Since they weren't tried.

To the point. This isn't a question of degree. Your country's armed forces got caught out acting like the guy they went in to get rid of. And you're here arguing as a defence, with a straight face, "we're not as bad as Saddam because we don't use plastic shredders."
post #174 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
The only problem with your logic is that small number of offenders does not in any way represent the US or it's methods or interests.

From the BBC (and a million other sources):

"The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said on Friday that the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners in US custody was not limited to isolated cases but formed part of a systematic pattern.

An ICRC spokesman said the committee had been warning the US about such cases for more than a year."

Deal with it.
meh
Reply
meh
Reply
post #175 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Noone in their right mind thought it was right to do those things to these prisoners, but the level of outrage over criminals and terrorists is a little off balance. I have yet to hear any of you cry over the innocent people that are being burned shredded and incinerated to death by the constant bombings in Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel, in the ME in general, yet alone ask for an apology or resignation of anyone in Hamaas, Hesbulla or AQ!

Selective outrage and fake compassion.

Selective outrage and fake compassion, indeed.
I really love those "yeah this is evil, but..."-sentences. They are telltale of the wish to make it go away, cover it up, deny it. Rummie and Bush are spouting them all over the places - makes for a very creditable apology, allright.

However, it is interesting that you are comparing Hamas and the US in this way - so you believe they are basically playing in the same league, only difference is terrorist group leaders don't step down or offer an apology? Obviously it is neither the methods (bombing and incinerating innocents - go ask some Iraquis about the war) nor the body count (estimated to be well in the thousand innocents in the case of Iraq and Afghanistan). So, if Rummie and Bush do not step down, they are leaders of a terrorist bunch?
post #176 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Firstly, how do you know that these people are 'criminals and terrorists'? Since they weren't tried.

To the point. This isn't a question of degree. Your country's armed forces got caught out acting like the guy they went in to get rid of. And you're here arguing as a defence, with a straight face, "we're not as bad as Saddam because we don't use plastic shredders."

According to an article in The Spectator they might not have even used those - perhaps they were as mythical as the WMD.

We'll never know. And we'll never know because there will be no research. And there will be no research because no-one in power gives a ****, all that matter is the meme served its purpose to demonise Saddam and justify the slaughter (although it looks like it could be usefully being pressed into service again with the current scandal)....the truth has nothing to do with it.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #177 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
The only problem with your logic is that small number of offenders does not in any way represent the US or it's methods or interests. Plus, these people were and are being dealt with swiftly and publicly, something you won't see among the terrorists and thugs. There is no cover up here.

Wise up. Point your anger and disgust at those that would bring the rest of us a bad name, namely those who perpetrated these acts.

No, they were not being delt with swiftly. These occurances were noted as early as mid January yet no actions were taken until the photos appeared on 60 minutes 2 last week. Wise up and pay attention to the news. This would never have been delt with because of the negative political ramifications except fot the media coverage. A handful of boots may have eventually been repremanded but this problem goes much higher. Look at McCains questioning of Rumsfeld yesterday FGS. McCaiin asked a simple "Who's in charge" question but Rummy couldn't answer. Why, because of the poor pentagon oversight and merc outsourcing. MI should not have been in charge of a facility already under the oversight of MP yet there they were. This is a systematic problem whether you like it or not. Just as Tailhook showed a systematic treatment of women in the military this shows a systematic disregard for the Geneva Convention concerning the fair treatment of prisoners.

Wise up there killer. Those that would bring us a bad name currently reside in the WH. Look at our name since March 2003.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #178 of 613
Story in the Gaurdian on systemic abuse.

Quote:
The sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison was not an invention of maverick guards, but part of a system of ill-treatment and degradation used by special forces soldiers that is now being disseminated among ordinary troops and contractors who do not know what they are doing, according to British military sources.

The techniques devised in the system, called R2I - resistance to interrogation - match the crude exploitation and abuse of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib jail in Baghdad.

One former British special forces officer who returned last week from Iraq, said: "It was clear from discussions with US private contractors in Iraq that the prison guards were using R2I techniques, but they didn't know what they were doing."

The evidence, though scattered for now, really does seem to indicate that these "interrogation" techniques were installed, if haphazardly, by MI and CIA personnel and administered by under or untrained regular army.

Apparently the "9/11" Gitmo model-- everyone is a terrorist until proven otherwise, the honor of the US grants it a "beyond the law" status, "breaking down" detainees is crucial to saving American lives-- was brought wholesale into Iraq. Perhaps the administration believes its own lies about the connections between Iraq and al Qaeda, and just figured there would be no problem with really stomping on "terrorists".
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #179 of 613
You did not here me say this was not bad. I have asked you guys not to put words in my mouth (or post) that are not there. As a matter of fact, my post actually says exactly opposite of that. But why worry about the technicality of actually reading and comprehending?

Anyway, I will reply to all of you in one post. OK?

You all seem to think that you know what is best for the world and that your vision is pure as driven snow and anything that America does is wrong. Some of you here more than others.

Once again, all I here is US bad, everyone else good.

That is what you are all promoting here and in other threads.

I think you need to examine your viewpoints to see what side you consistently come down on. It is pretty scary stuff, I know, but you might want to consider it.

Of course, many of you do not want to differentiate right and wrong, so in your case, I am not even sure what motivates you.

For all of you political parrots, it is really becoming monotonous and you will find that more and more people will ignore you because of it. I guess if you say it is Bush's fault enough it will become true. Keep telling yourself that, if you must.

This place needs an enema. Badly.
post #180 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
You did not here me say this was not bad. I have asked you guys not to put words in my mouth (or post) that are not there. As a matter of fact, my post actually says exactly opposite of that. But why worry about the technicality of actually reading and comprehending?

Anyway, I will reply to all of you in one post. OK?

You all seem to think that you know what is best for the world and that your vision is pure as driven snow and anything that America does is wrong. Some of you here more than others.

Once again, all I here is US bad, everyone else good.

That is what you are all promoting here and in other threads.

I think you need to examine your viewpoints to see what side you consistently come down on. It is pretty scary stuff, I know, but you might want to consider it.

Of course, many of you do not want to differentiate right and wrong, so in your case, I am not even sure what motivates you.

For all of you political parrots, it is really becoming monotonous and you will find that more and more people will ignore you because of it. I guess if you say it is Bush's fault enough it will become true. Keep telling yourself that, if you must.

This place needs an enema. Badly.

Listen you: I'm only going to say this once.

I am a patriot and a citizen. I expect my country to live up to the values it holds most dearly, and when it fails to do so, I expect that there should be an outcry and an honest appraisal.

What has happened at the prison camp in Iraq one of the most egregious betrayals of American values in my lifetime.

The evidence at hand suggests that this is a far worse problem than "a few bad eggs" running amuck. The evidence at hand suggests that somewhere in the chain of command the abuse of foreign prisoners has become normalized, and the "breaking" of detainees has become a matter of policy. I'm afraid that the post 9/11 mindset, that anyone who even could be a "terrorist" has no right to be treated as a human being, has come home to roost.

It doesn't f*cking matter what Saddam did.

We're talking about America now, not a brutal dictatorship. WE ARE OBLIGED TO ADHERE TO A MUCH MUCH HIGHER STANDARD THAN "NOT AS BAD AS A BUTCHER".

To dismiss the dismay at these developments as "blame America first" or defeatism or "hatred of Bush" is to betray American values.

Let me say that again: you Naples, are the one speaking in the traitor's voice. The voice that apparently hates America. That hates our values. That hates our justice. That hates our open society and its rule of law.

You've thrown it all over and signed up with an ideology instead. The ideology of "liberals are always wrong". So that no matter how appalling the lapse, you can be counted on to defend, not the core beliefs of the country I love, but the core beliefs of an angry minority that cannot allow for criticism coming from "the left" to be right, ever, ever, ever.

Your ideology is a cancer on my country. i refuse to allow this distorted and craven indifference to betrayal of our values parade itself as "patriotism" any longer. It is not.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #181 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Listen you: I'm only going to say this once.

I am a patriot and a citizen. I expect my country to live up to the values it holds most dearly, and when it fails to do so, I expect that there should be an outcry and an honest appraisal.

What has happened at the prison camp in Iraq one of the most egregious betrayals of American values in my lifetime.

The evidence at hand suggests that this is a far worse problem than "a few bad eggs" running amuck. The evidence at hand suggests that somewhere in the chain of command the abuse of foreign prisoners has become normalized, and the "breaking" of detainees has become a matter of policy. I'm afraid that the post 9/11 mindset, that anyone who even could be a "terrorist" has no right to be treated as a human being, has come home to roost.

It doesn't f*cking matter what Saddam did.

We're talking about America now, not a brutal dictatorship. WE ARE OBLIGED TO ADHERE TO A MUCH MUCH HIGHER STANDARD THAN "NOT AS BAD AS A BUTCHER".

To dismiss the dismay at these developments as "blame America first" or defeatism or "hatred of Bush" is to betray American values.

Let me say that again: you Naples, are the traitor. You are the one that apparently hates America. You hate our values. You hate our justice. You hate our open society and it's rule of law.

You've thrown it all over and signed up with an ideology instead. The ideology of "liberals are always wrong". So that no matter how appalling the lapse, you can be counted on to defend, not the core beliefs of the country I love, but the core beliefs of an angry minority that cannot allow for criticism coming from "the left" to be right, ever, ever, ever.

Your ideology is a cancer on my country. i refuse to allow this distorted and craven indifference to betrayal of our values parade itself as "patriotism" any longer. It is not.

I worry about those that constantly profess to be patriots. I think i have read you stating this far too many times.
post #182 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
You did not here me say this was not bad. I have asked you guys not to put words in my mouth (or post) that are not there. As a matter of fact, my post actually says exactly opposite of that. But why worry about the technicality of actually reading and comprehending?

Here, I'll cut and paste. You tell us were you said these incidents were bad.

Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX All of you people are ridiculous. This is a controversy that is almost 8 months old.

The military has investigated and is prosecuting those that have done these things. The military also made changes to the way things are done there.

I have brought up repeatedly the atrocities committed by SH, only to be dismissed and marginalized by many of the same people raising a fuss of this comparably minor issue.

Maybe I am just oversimplifying here, but I would rather face a broom stick up my ass over the threat of my whole family and all of their friend being wiped out, or getting dipped it flesh eating acid or any of the other sick torture methods that SH and Co. had in store which inevitably ended in death.

Noone in their right mind thought it was right to do those things to these prisoners, but the level of outrage over criminals and terrorists is a little off balance. I have yet to hear any of you cry over the innocent people that are being burned shredded and incinerated to death by the constant bombings in Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel, in the ME in general, yet alone ask for an apology or resignation of anyone in Hamaas, Hesbulla or AQ!

Selective outrage and fake compassion.

You all should be ashamed of yourself. Seriously.

I highlighted what you probably consider a mention of these incidents and how wrong they were, but you also peppered your respons with administration apologies and offhand explanations. No one put words in your mouth you put them there your self when you said a broomstick up the but wasn't as bad as we think it is. Get off your "you guys are not reading my post" high horse and read what you posted yourself.

Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX Wise up. Point your anger and disgust at those that would bring the rest of us a bad name, namely those who perpetrated these acts.

Again, no real mention of wrongdoing on the part of the US.

How many times are you going to apologiz for this war and this administration?
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #183 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I worry about those that constantly profess to be patriots. I think i have read you stating this far too many times.

This is the first time I have ever described myself as such on these boards, and only do so now because I want to reclaim the language from the nasty company it has been keeping as of late.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #184 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I worry about those that constantly profess to be patriots. I think i have read you stating this far too many times.

I worry about those who blindly apologize for the actions of a corrupt group of ideologs that are not in touch with reality. We will be greeted with flowers say Pearle...
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
Reply
post #185 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
Here, I'll cut and paste. You tell us were you said these incidents were bad.



I highlighted what you probably consider a mention of these incidents and how wrong they were, but you also peppered your respons with administration apologies and offhand explanations. No one put words in your mouth you put them there your self when you said a broomstick up the but wasn't as bad as we think it is. Get off your "you guys are not reading my post" high horse and read what you posted yourself.



Again, no real mention of wrongdoing on the part of the US.

How many times are you going to apologiz for this war and this administration?

I have been very consistent and clear. Parse away if you must.

How many times will you apologize for terrorists and murderers? How many time will you side with them? How many times will you hold views that benefit their interests? How many times will you attack yourself?

You do realize that we are a government of for and by the people. You constantly down your own community and family when you attack this government.

Equating what this handful of sick bastards did with the entire US philosophy is just insulting. I personally do not know anyone that would do these kinds of things. Nor would I personally let anyone I know get away with it if they did. My friends and family are in no way like these people who committed these offenses. Are you saying your circle does these things?

You can try to say that this is US way of doing things but you are insulting a myriad of US citizens when you do, and I am sick of it.

Your attitude toward my fellow humans and family sickens me. You are in no way looking out for this country, world or anyone else by hiding behind some self appointed patriotism.

Excuse me while I throw up!
post #186 of 613
This post should win an award.

Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Listen you: I'm only going to say this once.

I am a patriot and a citizen. I expect my country to live up to the values it holds most dearly, and when it fails to do so, I expect that there should be an outcry and an honest appraisal.

This bit should win a cash prize.

Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
What has happened at the prison camp in Iraq one of the most egregious betrayals of American values in my lifetime.We're talking about America now, not a brutal dictatorship. WE ARE OBLIGED TO ADHERE TO A MUCH MUCH HIGHER STANDARD THAN "NOT AS BAD AS A BUTCHER".

To dismiss the dismay at these developments as "blame America first" or defeatism or "hatred of Bush" is to betray American values.
post #187 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
How many times will you apologize for terrorists and murderers? How many time will you side with them? How many times will you hold views that benefit their interests? How many times will you attack yourself?

No.

How many times will you apologise for torturers and murderers?

Addabox doesn't think that torture and murder are compatible with American values and you have the sauce to call him anti-American.

Nice.
post #188 of 613
I guess peope like NaplesX couldn't give a damn anyway, 'cos he'd just as soon have everyone as an enemy as acknowledge when his country is wrong...but I'm about one Addabox post from joining the ranks of the Anti-American.

Quote:
I am a patriot and a citizen. I expect my country to live up to the values it holds most dearly, and when it fails to do so, I expect that there should be an outcry and an honest appraisal.

Please keep posting Addabox. We need to hear what you have to say.
post #189 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by Zarathustra
I guess peope like NaplesX couldn't give a damn anyway, 'cos he'd just as soon have everyone as an enemy as acknowledge when his country is wrong...but I'm about one Addabox post from joining the ranks of the Anti-American.



Please keep posting Addabox. We need to hear what you have to say.

The US does plenty of things wrong. So what is your point? Don't you?

As a rule here we tend to correct issues when they come up. It is the nature of a democracy. If bush was wrong then he will be removed and Kerry will have a chance to set it right and so on and so on.
post #190 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Listen you: I'm only going to say this once.

I am a patriot and a citizen. I expect my country to live up to the values it holds most dearly, and when it fails to do so, I expect that there should be an outcry and an honest appraisal.

What has happened at the prison camp in Iraq one of the most egregious betrayals of American values in my lifetime.

The evidence at hand suggests that this is a far worse problem than "a few bad eggs" running amuck. The evidence at hand suggests that somewhere in the chain of command the abuse of foreign prisoners has become normalized, and the "breaking" of detainees has become a matter of policy. I'm afraid that the post 9/11 mindset, that anyone who even could be a "terrorist" has no right to be treated as a human being, has come home to roost.

It doesn't f*cking matter what Saddam did.

We're talking about America now, not a brutal dictatorship. WE ARE OBLIGED TO ADHERE TO A MUCH MUCH HIGHER STANDARD THAN "NOT AS BAD AS A BUTCHER".

To dismiss the dismay at these developments as "blame America first" or defeatism or "hatred of Bush" is to betray American values.

Let me say that again: you Naples, are the one speaking in the traitor's voice. The voice that apparently hates America. That hates our values. That hates our justice. That hates our open society and its rule of law.

You've thrown it all over and signed up with an ideology instead. The ideology of "liberals are always wrong". So that no matter how appalling the lapse, you can be counted on to defend, not the core beliefs of the country I love, but the core beliefs of an angry minority that cannot allow for criticism coming from "the left" to be right, ever, ever, ever.

Your ideology is a cancer on my country. i refuse to allow this distorted and craven indifference to betrayal of our values parade itself as "patriotism" any longer. It is not.

Bravo and thank you - you have shown that there is still hope and that truth and decency will win out.

A voice of sanity. Keep going and don't let it get you down...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #191 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
I am a patriot and a citizen. I expect my country to live up to the values it holds most dearly, and when it fails to do so, I expect that there should be an outcry and an honest appraisal.

What makes you a patriot?
posting on AO is not a requirement the last i checked.

Citizen of what?

I also expect values to be lived up to, but I do not blame political opponents for things that were not in their control.

Honesty based on what standard?

That statement was full of wiggle room.

Help me out and clarify.
post #192 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
The US does plenty of things wrong. So what is your point? Don't you?

As a rule here we tend to correct issues when they come up. It is the nature of a democracy. If bush was wrong then he will be removed and Kerry will have a chance to set it right and so on and so on.

This reminds me of something George Bush said during his interview with al-Arabya television this week. He said "Its also important for the people of Iraq to know that in a democracy, everything is not perfect, that mistakes are made."

My first reaction, of course, was to think -what's he talking about? Iraq's not a democracy since its governor is unelected and these actions weren't committed by Iraqi police who might lose their jobs, but by American soldiers, since last time I saw the news Iraq's still under occupation.

So why did he say it? Was it for the Arabic-speaking viewers? For the electorate at home? Or was it because, for him, 'democracy' means 'not a dictatorship', in which case he genuinely doesn't know what the word means?

I don't know why this made me as... not upset, but something as it did.
post #193 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
This reminds me of something George Bush said during his interview with al-Arabya television this week. He said "Its also important for the people of Iraq to know that in a democracy, everything is not perfect, that mistakes are made."

My first reaction, of course, was to think -what's he talking about? Iraq's not a democracy since its governor is unelected and these actions weren't committed by Iraqi police who might lose their jobs, but by American soldiers, since last time I saw the news Iraq's still under occupation.

So why did he say it? Was it for the Arabic-speaking viewers? For the electorate at home? Or was it because, for him, 'democracy' means 'not a dictatorship', in which case he genuinely doesn't know what the word means?

I don't know why this made me as... not upset, but something as it did.

IRAQ is under US control all operations and people there are under the umbrella of the US democracy. That is why he said that.

Come on.
post #194 of 613
Quote:
I am a patriot and a citizen. I expect my country to live up to the values it holds most dearly, and when it fails to do so, I expect that there should be an outcry and an honest appraisal.


Can anyone here help me? Where, exactly, is the 'wiggle room' in this statement? I'm confused.

I thought to call oneself 'a patriot' and 'a citizen' was pretty damn fucking unequivocal, but now I'm not so sure. NaplesX is forcing me to re-evaluate my position over the definition of a word.

Hey ho. I guess even a word like 'is' might have any number of nuanced definitions.

Patriot.
Citizen.
Twat.

Oh I don't know.
post #195 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
What makes you a patriot?
posting on AO is not a requirement the last i checked.

Citizen of what?

I also expect values to be lived up to, but I do not blame political opponents for things that were not in their control.

Honesty based on what standard?

That statement was full of wiggle room.

Help me out and clarify.

"Wiggle room"? Like if my post doesn't "hold up" I can claim that I meant I was a citizen of Sri Lanka?

I can't help you out and I can't see that anything needs clarification.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
post #196 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah

Can anyone here help me? Where, exactly, is the 'wiggle room' in this statement? I'm confused.

I thought to call oneself 'a patriot' and 'a citizen' was pretty damn fucking unequivocal, but now I'm not so sure. NaplesX is forcing me to re-evaluate my position over the definition of a word.

Hey ho. I guess even a word like 'is' might have any number of nuanced definitions.

Patriot.
Citizen.
Twat.

Oh I don't know. [/B]

Patriot - One who loves his country, and zealously supports its authority and interests. According to webster's.

We are all citizens of something.

His statement could apply to anyone of any number of people from any number of countries. There is where the wiggle room is.

It is extremely vague while seeming just the opposite. Maybe I am wrong.

What is wrong with some clarity?
post #197 of 613
Um. Yeeees.

Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Patriot - One who loves his country, and zealously supports its authority and interests. According to webster's.

We are all citizens of something.

His statement could apply to anyone of any number of people from any number of countries. There is where the wiggle room is.

It is extremely vague while seeming just the opposite. Maybe I am wrong.

What is wrong with some clarity?

When I read his post, in which he was talking about upholding the values - American values - he held so dearly, I must admit I wondered at first if he was an American citizen.

And when he wrote, in the same post:

Quote:

We're talking about America now, not a brutal dictatorship. WE ARE OBLIGED TO ADHERE TO A MUCH MUCH HIGHER STANDARD THAN "NOT AS BAD AS A BUTCHER".


my immediate reaction was "Ah. He's a Swiss citizen."

And then I banged my head against the corner of my desk until I broke open the front of my skull, to, you know, let the demons out, and then it was clear.
post #198 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Let me say that again: you Naples, are the one speaking in the traitor's voice. The voice that apparently hates America. That hates our values. That hates our justice. That hates our open society and its rule of law.

Swiss.

Definitely.
post #199 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Swiss.

Definitely.

Oh so you guys read a post thoroughly and strive to comprehend it and put it into the proper context when it agrees with you, but when it does not, screw it.

I did this little exorcize to demonstrate your own tactics and how transparent you are all being.

Live and learn.
post #200 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I did this little exorcize to demonstrate your own tactics and how transparent you are all being.

Of course you did.

My, er, total bad.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Discussion
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › this is appalling, abuse of Iraqi prisoners