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this is appalling, abuse of Iraqi prisoners - Page 6

post #201 of 613
This man

is pretending to be a space rocket.

ppppppppssssssssssss cccccccccchhhhhhhhh CHCHCHCHCHCHCHCHCHCHCCHCHCHCHCHCHCCH!!!!!!!
lift off!!!!
post #202 of 613
These men

are playing 'Twister'.

Wheeee!
post #203 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Oh so you guys read a post thoroughly and strive to comprehend it and put it into the proper context when it agrees with you, but when it does not, screw it.

I did this little exorcize to demonstrate your own tactics and how transparent you are all being.

Live and learn.

What now? Something about exorcising and transparency.... is there a ghost in your machine?
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #204 of 613
This man

is having a nap after a hearty lunch -but he'd better get home before his wife and kids miss him!

There'll be trouble!
post #205 of 613
This man

is having a goooood stretch before he turns in for the night.

Nightynight Ahmad.
Nightynight Bashir.
post #206 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
These men

are playing 'Twister'.

Wheeee!

I don't know if you've seen Limbaugh's response, but he's actually not far from "oh, come on, they were just playing games".

Simple "hazing" in his book, nothing worse than what you would expect from a fraternity.

Which I guess would be an interesting point if fraternities were in the habit of driving around armed in black vans, snatching potential recruits off the streets without telling them what was up, confining them to a cell for a few months while forcing them to a wear a black hood, assuring them they would be beaten and killed if they didn't confess what they knew about rival fraternities, and occasionally dragging them out of their cells for a festive round of sexual humiliation and or physical abuse.

Rush must have gone to a really really harsh school.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #207 of 613
NaplesX,

Would you be in favor of the death penalty for the generals that were responsible for encouraging the torture? If not, why not?
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #208 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Rush must have gone to a really really harsh school.

It's the drugs.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #209 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
It's the drugs.

Hmmm.....

You may be on to something there....

Maybe the extremes of Rush's world-view are entirely informed by bad drugs and withdrawal symptoms:

"Ladies and Gentlemen, isn't it time we called the liberal winged crocodile monsters for what they really are? Demons from the fifth dimension with mind control rays and really really long hideous claws? Hideous claws that seem to pop out at you from an otherwise perfectly pleasant plate of fried chicken, chicken which, could it speak, would certainly tell you horrible horrible things about yours truly's very own childhood, ladies and gentlemen, things that the winged crocodile monster media will never tell you because their mouths are like gaping holes, holes that carry you down, down, down......"
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #210 of 613
This woman

is fighting to uphold the core American values of decency, tolerance and justice.

And anyone who disagrees hates America. Hates George Bush, who is making America loved and respected throughout the world. Hates democracy itself, yes, and the right to a fair trial, and all of those other things that even fucking sandnigg, er, Arabs deserve.

Now, who wants to come and play Twister with me?
post #211 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Now, who wants to come and play Twister with me?

I'll be in London in a week.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #212 of 613
Looks like the 'additional photos' that Rumsfeld referred to in his testimony are expected to hit the public domain this week according to The UK Independent newspaper.

According to the article "Senior officials have warned that the new images and details of the abuse and torture at the prison west of Baghdad will be even more shocking than those already released" and may show:

Quote:
US soldiers having sex with an Iraqi woman prisoner, troops almost beating a prisoner to death, and the rape of young boys by Iraqi guards at the jail.

NBC News has quoted military officials as saying that the new photographs also show US soldiers "acting inappropriately with a dead body"........(and) reported that the rape of young boys by Iraqi guards, apparently in a special section of the prison, had been filmed by US soldiers.

I wonder how the 'blowing off steam' Rush supporters are going to spin their support for this one. Looks like Bremer is already stepping up to the plate though and is playing down the abuse and insisting that "Iraq is benefiting from the occupation despite the publicity given to the abuse of prisoners by US guards" and that "the work of troops to rebuild Iraq together with its people showed the 'true spirit of America'".

What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #213 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Equating what this handful of sick bastards did with the entire US philosophy is just insulting.

Ops..Turns out it isn't just a handful of bastards... They had their orders from above. High above.

And they're doing some of the same stuff in Guantanamo...

(Washington post link, registration requried)

Quote:
he Defense Department approved interrogation techniques for use at the Guantanamo Bay prison that permit reversing the normal sleep patterns of detainees and exposing them to heat, cold and "sensory assault," including loud music and bright lights, according to defense officials.

The classified list of about 20 techniques was approved at the highest levels of the Pentagon and the Justice Department, and represents the first publicly known documentation of an official policy permitting interrogators to use physically and psychologically stressful methods during questioning.

In other news,Prisoners were hidden from the Red Cross (the Guradian) and The british were involved in Abu Ghraib interogations. Also in this article: the Red Cross is suspecting that prisonars may have been moved from afghanistan to iraq.
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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post #214 of 613
Well, at least Bremer hasn't lost his sense of humor:
Bremer said the abuse has done "enormous damage to the U.S. Army, but U.S. soldiers also rebuild schools and hospitals."

After all, what's a little torture among friends as long as you are rebuilding schools?

Bush finally seems to get a grip on the dimensions of the human rights violations:
In his weekly radio address, Bush called the abuse "a stain on our country's honor and reputation."

Better late than never, I guess.

And Amnesty Internationals is moving fast these days: Lynndie-England.com

Their statement makes for a chilling read, too:
Abuses have not been restricted to Abu Ghraib. Numerous people held in the US Air Bases in Bagram and Kandahar in Afghanistan say they were subjected to torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment in US custody, and the administration has failed to comply with the Geneva Conventions with regard to the Guant√°namo detainees.
post #215 of 613
Looks like they just announced the first court martial: Specialist Jeremy Sivits, 24 year-old MP, will go on trial in Iraq on 19 May.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #216 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Um. Yeeees.

When I read his post, in which he was talking about upholding the values - American values - he held so dearly, I must admit I wondered at first if he was an American citizen.

And when he wrote, in the same post:


my immediate reaction was "Ah. He's a Swiss citizen."

I don't get the bit about the Swiss citizen

However, both, the U.S. and the U.K. ambassador were *called* into the Swiss Foreign Office the other day to receive, what can only be described as an allmighty bollocking, especially when one considers the normal "niceness" of the diplomatic language:

Switzerland is disgusted and enraged with what has been happening. The Geneva Convention (but then, did Bush not rather conveniently say right at the start of the "liberation" campaign that the U.S. would not recognise the G.C.?) particularly safeguards the rights of prisoners of war. Problems of the kind of Iraq are impossible to be solved alone by a super power, and with force, no matter how large that power. We cannot remain silent confronted with what is happening in Iraq. Switzerland (and just about everyone else too, apart from the totally clueless Bush adminstration, of course) has, since the beginning of the military operation, expressed fears about the destabilisation of the region, which sadly is now becoming apparent. Power must be handed over to the Iraqui people as soon as possible, within the agreed framework of the international community and the United Nations. (well, but we are on course there, aren't we, 1st June, no? Bush said so)



Here, for your convenience, is a quick Babel Fish translation, but then again, I am sure that Fox will have by picked up the story by now:

Bundesraetin me LINE Calmy Rey has the Ambassadors of the USA and Great Britain because of the prisoner abusing in Iraq in the State Department _ such tortures is quoted inakzeptabel, said it on weekend in interviews and gave their abhorrence over the occurrences expression.

She explained to the Ambassadors, the tortures are unacceptable, said Swiss Foreign Minister on Saturday in "Tagesschau" Swiss of the television. This behavior opposite prisoners hurts humanitarian international law. Switzerland reminded the two states of the fact that those protected Geneva conventions in particular prisoners of war and to be kept are. Switzerland as Depositarstaat that Geneva conventions has a special moral obligation to use itself for their observance.

With this step Switzerland wanted to express also their concern, said a spokeswoman of the Swiss federal Departementes for foreign affairs (EDA). Switzerland pointed itself contently over the promised clearing-up of all cases of prisoner abusing to Iraq. Such crimes might not remain unpunished. "Das are procedures, to which we are not silent koennen", said opposite to Calmy Rey "SonntagsBlick". Personally it with abhorrence and rage reacted to these abusing, explained the Foreign Minister. So one cannot treat humans.

To the situation in Iraq said Calmy Rey, problems of this kind could from a weltmacht - and it might have been still so strong - not by force and in the single-handed attempt be solved. Switzerland feared the destabilization of the whole region since beginning of the military operations in Iraq. "Ich it regrets much that our Anaylse obviously erweist" itself as correct;, the Foreign Minister in "SonntagsBlick" said; further. Power in Iraq must turn into as rapidly as possible to the Iraqis, in whom of the UN and the international community marked out framework is _ much blocked, because Iraq is an occupied country, said the Foreign Minister. Switzerland cannot go beyond humanitarian assistance, so for a long time this condition andaure. _ concern over Middle East policy _ to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict said opposite to Calmy Rey "SonntagsBlick" among other things, Switzerland is anxious over the announced one-sided retreat of Israel from the Gaza Strip, which is rejected by the Palestinians. The Geneva peace initiative supported by Switzerland is the only alternative. She suggests clear principles in the spirit of the dialogue and brings solutions, which were negotiated. It is deeply convinced that a process offers like those Geneva initiative the possibility of finding an generally acceptable solution for the region said the EDA boss.


http://www.swissinfo.org/sde/swissin...05&sid=4923050

In a way I am bit puzzled by the surprise expressed by so many, when the writing was quite clearly on the wall ever since Guantanomo Bay.



Rumsfeld during the hearing the other day: "And here we are, operating within the law, and then there are these people with their digital cameras taking these terrible pictures that we haven't even seen yet (or words to that extent)". Can't someone just shoot the guy?

- T. I.
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post #217 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Equating what this handful of sick bastards did with the entire US philosophy is just insulting.

Please enlighten me as to what the US philosophy is. Maybe you can split it up between the philosophy of the people and the one of the adminstration(s), unless they are one and the same, that is.

- T. I.
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post #218 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by Smircle
And Amnesty Internationals is moving fast these days: Lynndie-England.com

They have always moved fast. It's just that certain governments have found it prudent to ignore them. But with a bit of luck, this may change now.

- T. I.
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post #219 of 613
Any American who does not speak out about the abuse this thread covers is a shameful individual.

Period.

There is no excuse for this and those who carried out these criminal acts no matter how far up or down the chain of command should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

I am not a proud american.

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #220 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by Fellowship
Any American who does not speak out about the abuse this thread covers is a shameful individual.

Period.

There is no excuse for this and those who carried out these criminal acts no matter how far up or down the chain of command should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

I am not a proud american.

Fellowship

You have an enormous amount to be proud of and the reactions to these photographs I've read are a reminder of everything that's supposed to make your country so cool.
post #221 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
All of you people are ridiculous. This is a controversy that is almost 8 months old.

The military has investigated and is prosecuting those that have done these things. The military also made changes to the way things are done there.

I have brought up repeatedly the atrocities committed by SH, only to be dismissed and marginalized by many of the same people raising a fuss of this comparably minor issue.

Maybe I am just oversimplifying here, but I would rather face a broom stick up my ass over the threat of my whole family and all of their friend being wiped out, or getting dipped it flesh eating acid or any of the other sick torture methods that SH and Co. had in store which inevitably ended in death.

Noone in their right mind thought it was right to do those things to these prisoners, but the level of outrage over criminals and terrorists is a little off balance. I have yet to hear any of you cry over the innocent people that are being burned shredded and incinerated to death by the constant bombings in Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel, in the ME in general, yet alone ask for an apology or resignation of anyone in Hamaas, Hesbulla or AQ!

Selective outrage and fake compassion.

You all should be ashamed of yourself. Seriously.

If you were at my home I would kindly show you the door.

Fellowship
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
Reply
May the peace of the Lord be with you always

Share your smile, Have respect for others, and be loving to all peoples

Paul in Athens: Acts 17 : 16-34
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post #222 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
Donald Rumsfeld

Some more quotes from Rumsfeld :

BBC link here

I think it's a disaster for the future of Iraq. This events have totally screwed up the reputation of US army in Iraq. It will be very difficult to fix this.

Maybe not a bad thing that, if, in future, it stops them from just walking into other countries. I know, I know, they were only following orders...

Did you notice how upset Rumsfeld seemed when he, as a damage limitation exercise, promised more pictures? Upset as in, how dare they come out with yet more pictures? Anyway, that was my take on it.

The guy is *totally* out of his depth, and has been right from the start. The "Rumsfeld Doctrin" (as opposed to the "Powell Doctrin")? Not very successful, is it? Generals have been fired for less. At the very least he should be court marshalled.

- T. I.
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post #223 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
I'll be in London in a week.

Bring a hood.
post #224 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
You have an enormous amount to be proud of and the reactions to these photographs I've read are a reminder of everything that's supposed to make your country so cool.

That is a *very* good point you are making, but at the same time I find it very depressing that the chances that, according to the latest opinion polls, Bush will get re-elected, and I use the term elected lightly, are very high. By contrast, Tony Bliar's position looks more shaky with each passing day.

- T. I.
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post #225 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by The Installer
That is a *very* good point you are making, but at the same time I find it very depressing that the chances that, according to the latest opinion polls, Bush will get re-elected, and I use the term elected lightly, are very high. By contrast, Tony Bliar's position looks more shaky with each passing day.

- T. I.

Don't believe Opinion Polls. If you do look at them though notice Bush and Kerry are neck and neck with a 6% undecided still out there. The lions share of undecided votes usually go for the challenger. Also, look at Bush's job satisfaction numbers--very low which doesn't bode well for reelection. Another thing, Kerry has been doing a stump speech a week which isn't really campaigning. His first round of commercials is being released. Kerry will step up the campaigning after the DNC I dare say. Kerry is also more articulate thus wait for the debates if and when they happen. Kerry has a lot going for him right now. Kerry can run on his own platform (which he has been) or on "I'm not GWB". Either case will garner the democratic vote and probably the swing vote as well. GWB has to run on his record thus far.

It's much too early to hand the election to Bush. There are a lot of conservatives out there upset with the budget situation and the expanding government programs under Bush thus www.conservativesagainstbush.com . The conservative voters upset with Bush are planning on abstaining this election year. The Log Cabin Republicans have not officially turned away from the repubs this election cycle but many of them are very upset with the proposed constitutional amendment which will lead some to not vote and others to vote for Kerry. I could go on but you probably get the picture. Bush is by no means a shoe-in for the presidency.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #226 of 613
I think we could try to find a positive angle - difficult as it is.

But it may be that some good can come of this for Iraq. Basically this issue has transcended partisan positions for all but the most hopeless cases, as such it has a certain unifying effect, or will do when the dust settles.

What I mean is, even my mother who is a dyed in the wool conservative is starting to see the Iraqis as human in a way that wasn't evident before. I don't mean this in a patronising way, just that before the abuse pics the 'Iraqi resistance = terrorists' meme was something she couldn't come to question. Now she sees that these guys are people just like us.

In a way, the world view of a large part of the 'war support base' (for want of a better word - I know many 'pro-war' people who are now questioning their position because of this) has imploded under its own weight. It's almost like a kind of justice.

I know some will think this is a partisan point but I just would like to say that people are starting to see through this that we are all human and no-one is less human than anyone else. Even the abusers.

Maybe we can all (even them) learn from this to reject dehumanising stereotypes (that are always necessary for abuse to occur) and to move on to something more. Maybe this can be a turning point for some amazing leap if the US (ie Bush) can grasp it or maybe we just carry on descending as before.

Anyway - end of sanctimonious pontificating...carry on......
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #227 of 613
good point Segovius, of course, it's sad that things like this have to happen for people to see that though.
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post #228 of 613
My hope would be that these images bring home the reality of these interrogation techniques so that we can actually have a national conversation about what we, as Americans, are willing to tolerate in the name of "the war on terror".

I have been dismayed to realize that post 9/11 there has been a sort of tacit approval of torture as a way of getting information, something I never thought I'd see in this country. Of course, it all happened off-stage, with euphemisms to spare the faint of heart, but I think most Americans sort of "got it" and sort of thought it was "OK". After all, terrorists are inhuman monsters so the rule of law and standards of international justice need not apply.

The problem, as I have seen it, is that once you breach that taboo, you may find it hard to go back. Torture becomes normalized as a legitimate way to "protect the homeland". And as we have seen with the war on terror, there is a constant diffusion outward of these extralegal techniques and "extraordinary measures" into more general processes (as in the Patriot Act turned against drug offenders or "homeland security" cited as a reason to harass activists).

Now that we have seen these images, and any to come, perhaps it will be more difficult to blur over what we really mean when we say that information must be collected by "any means necessary". Perhaps there will be some light shed on how things are run at Guantanamo. Maybe it will be possible to point out that just because someone is in custody, they aren't necessarily scheming terrorist fiends (as in the case of the apparently many Afghani villagers who were swept up in the early days of that war and are languishing at Guantanamo without recourse to any form of legality whatsoever).

I doubt that all of that will be put on the table, but if any of this becomes overt in the national conscience, as opposed to that sort of convenient vagueness that shields us from the ugly business of what our government does in our name, then at least some good will have come from this.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #229 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
NaplesX,

Would you be in favor of the death penalty for the generals that were responsible for encouraging the torture? If not, why not?

No. Torture does not equal death. This was not necessarily torture. I can't say what happened though, nor can you.

However, if death of one of these prisoners was a result of the torture, I would want those responsible prosecuted to the full.
post #230 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by The Installer
Maybe not a bad thing that, if, in future, it stops them from just walking into other countries. I know, I know, they were only following orders...

Did you notice how upset Rumsfeld seemed when he, as a damage limitation exercise, promised more pictures? Upset as in, how dare they come out with yet more pictures? Anyway, that was my take on it.

The guy is *totally* out of his depth, and has been right from the start. The "Rumsfeld Doctrin" (as opposed to the "Powell Doctrin")? Not very successful, is it? Generals have been fired for less. At the very least he should be court marshalled.

- T. I.

I think it's the end of Rumsfeld doctrin, and that's a good thing. If Bush is reelected Rumy will be not in the oval office anymore. The election are only 6 months away : i doubt that he will be fired now.
post #231 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
I could go on but you probably get the picture.

Yes, I do. Thanks for filling me in, faust9.

As to Kerry being more articulate, not difficult that and thank God.

- T. I.
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post #232 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
I think it's the end of Rumsfeld doctrin, and that's a good thing. If Bush is reelected Rumy will be not in the oval office anymore. The election are only 6 months away : i doubt that he will be fired now.

I actually do think that as a measure of desperation he will (have to) be sacrificed. Remember where you heard it first, Powerdoc

- T. I.
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post #233 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by Powerdoc
I think it's the end of Rumsfeld doctrin, and that's a good thing. If Bush is reelected Rumy will be not in the oval office anymore. The election are only 6 months away : i doubt that he will be fired now.

That may be true, I am not sure, but what makes you jump to that conclusion.
post #234 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Maybe we can all (even them) learn from this to reject dehumanising stereotypes (that are always necessary for abuse to occur) and to move on to something more. Maybe this can be a turning point for some amazing leap if the US (ie Bush) can grasp it or maybe we just carry on descending as before.

I seriously doubt that the Bush will grasp it.

The prison, for instance, as a symbolic gesture, should have been raised to the ground in the first place, but that would of course not have been as photogenic as tearing down the statue of Saddam. I understand that it was actually suggested some time ago, but the idea was vetoed by the adminstration, just as much as it was suggested the other day at the hearing, with the result of Rumsfeld saying, yes that might be a good idea, illustrating that he still doesn't get it

It's been about media manipulation all along. Embedded reporters (oh yeah, very objective, that), the embarrassing presentation of a plastic turkey after landing on an aircraft carrier where, one might say, we got two turkeys for the price of one. That was pure pantomime (in the English theatrical sense). Forbidding anyone to show the soldiers (God rest their souls) "coming home", conveniently ignoring the Freedom of Information Act that Americans are rightly so proud of. And then there was Bush's visit to the U.K. that cost the British tax payer millions of £'s, but which at least provided nice pictures for the voters back home. The fact that nobody got the chance to wave to the most powerful man in the world, because all the roads being blocked off was, naturally, omitted from the TeeVee reports. He certainly ain't too popular with the Londoners, and that's a fact.

On top of which we had/have endless and pious preaching of how grateful the Iraquis (and the free world) is/should be.

And just in case anyone has forgotten, just where are those WMD's, that were the reason for liberating the Iraquis in the first pace?

Good points in your post BTW, segovius.

-T. I.
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post #235 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
NaplesX,

Would you be in favor of the death penalty for the generals that were responsible for encouraging the torture? If not, why not?

You apparently do. So the real questions to be asked are:

1. do you favor the death penalty only for US officials or should the same standard be applied to SH and his crew and other nations that do it?

2. Is capital punishment to be doled out in such an inequitable way?

3. Are you still a liberal? Death penalty?
post #236 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
You apparently do. So the real questions to be asked are:

1. do you favor the death penalty only for US officials or should the same standard be applied to SH and his crew and other nations that do it?

2. Is capital punishment to be doled out in such an inequitable way?

3. Are you still a liberal? Death penalty?

The United States' standards of behavior are her own. Pegging them to the behavior of criminals is grotesque.

He is asking about the death penalty as a probe into your reasoning, not endorsing it.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #237 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
The United States' standards of behavior are her own. Pegging them to the behavior of criminals is grotesque.

He is asking about the death penalty as a probe into your reasoning, not endorsing it.

I would like to hear it from him if you don't mind.

I answered his questions directly. it would be nice to get the same.
post #238 of 613
Hassan, your satire is amazing...
post #239 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I answered his questions directly.

Really? It looks to me like you "answered" his question with another question (or series of questions).
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eye
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post #240 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
You apparently do. So the real questions to be asked are:

1. do you favor the death penalty only for US officials or should the same standard be applied to SH and his crew and other nations that do it?

2. Is capital punishment to be doled out in such an inequitable way?

3. Are you still a liberal? Death penalty?

I'm against the death penalty, but as long as we use it I feel like this is a better cause than killing what's-his-name who blew up the Federal Building in O.K.C.

As for SH and his crew, I'll defer to international law. Our laws don't matter when dealing with crimes committed in another country.

Why would using it here be inequitable?
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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