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this is appalling, abuse of Iraqi prisoners - Page 7

post #241 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
No. Torture does not equal death. This was not necessarily torture. I can't say what happened though, nor can you.

However, if death of one of these prisoners was a result of the torture, I would want those responsible prosecuted to the full.

Institutionalized violence of this fashion is a far greater crime than murder even if we only killed a few Iraqis in the process of torturing them.
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post #242 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
I'm against the death penalty, but as long as we use it I feel like this is a better cause than killing what's-his-name who blew up the Federal Building in O.K.C.

As for SH and his crew, I'll defer to international law. Our laws don't matter when dealing with crimes committed in another country.

Why would using it here be inequitable?

Punishment should be equal to the crime. Since when does torture equate to death?

In the OKC case, the crime was killing many people and the death penalty is appropriate.

The burden of proof is overwhelming in this situation.

You are also assuming that higher up encouraged these things specifically.

You are also forgetting the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing that we here pride ourselves in.
post #243 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
Institutionalized violence of this fashion is a far greater crime than murder even if we only killed a few Iraqis in the process of torturing them.

Once again you are assuming a lot.
I would be careful.
post #244 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
You are also assuming that higher up encouraged these things specifically.

Only in the way that he assumes the Empire State Bldg is in NY and that cats are furry things with claws.
post #245 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
This was not necessarily torture.

Check out how nice I am.

Torture as defined by the dictionary, UN and US Code.
post #246 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Check out how nice I am.

Torture as defined by the dictionary, UN and US Code.

By those definitions, those acts could be defined as torture, maybe. But once again I highly doubt they were sanctioned by the Military.

We are talking about a handful of people acting outside of common decency.

Once again, I personally wait to see all of the facts before jumping to conclusions.
post #247 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I personally wait to see all of the facts before jumping to conclusions.

Good. Maybe you should start digging into the immense mountain of info on the subject to catch up.
Quote:
But once again I highly doubt they were sanctioned by the Military.

We are talking about a handful of people acting outside of common decency.

Well, golly. I thought you were going to wait to see the facts before jumping to conclusions. See what happens when you don't? You end up making ridiculous statements.
post #248 of 613
NaplesX,
I have avoided this thread because I thought most people would concur that these inhuman acts tarnish not only those responsible but the US military and by default the United States itself. A handful of individuals who represent this nation (and they are told that they do) who commit such crimes are in the unique position to tarnish the reputation of the individuals tortured and the US. These acts, while perhaps the acts of individuals, cannot be tossed aside as simply acts of a few bad apples because of the position these individuals hold in representing the us...
post #249 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Punishment should be equal to the crime. Since when does torture equate to death?

Institutionalized and systematic violence and torture of political prisoners who are protected by the Geneva Conventions. Do you condemn or condone acts such as this that I have described? And if you condemn them, how would capital punishment not fit this crime that I (and the media) have described?

And no, I'm not forgetting innocent until proven guilty. Obviously I expect those charged to be found guilty before any punishment could be addressed. I'm discussing the penalty for a crime, only applicable once someone is found guilty in a court of law. Any reasonable and rational person should be able to tell that's what's being discussed.
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post #250 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Good. Maybe you should start digging into the immense mountain of info on the subject to catch up.

Well, golly. I thought you were going to wait to see the facts before jumping to conclusions. See what happens when you don't? You end up making ridiculous statements.

Once again, "innocent till proven guilty" is an assumption that we are bound to make:

"The principle that there is a presumption of innocence in favor of the accused is the undoubted law, axiomatic and elementary, and its enforcement lies at the foundation of the administration of our criminal law."

Coffin v.l United States, (1895)
post #251 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
By those definitions, those acts could be defined as torture, maybe. But once again I highly doubt they were sanctioned by the Military.

We are talking about a handful of people acting outside of common decency.

As reports, evidence, statements, and other relevant facts (along with, apparently, many more photos and even videos) are coming out, it doesn't look like you can call these isolated incidents.
Quote:
The torture and sadism at the Abu Ghraib prison were spawned at another Iraqi jail called Camp Bucca.

And it may have been allowed to flourish by inept officers and inadvertently encouraged by a policy that urged the prison guards to perform jobs they weren't trained to do.

Some of the U.S. soldiers who were photographed sexually humiliating prisoners at deposed dictator Saddam Hussein's most notorious prison were also at Camp Bucca last year, when the facility was rocked by allegations that detainees were beaten.

But instead of throwing the book at the four soldiers caught abusing Iraqi detainees, the military gave them the boot with less-than-honorable discharges, according to a scathing report into the shocking sadism prepared by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba.

Their commanding officer, Lt. Col. Jerry Phillabaum, was transferred to Abu Ghraib, where the actions of soldiers supposedly under his command have shamed the nation and outraged the Arab world.

"The information in the Taguba report links the atrocities at Abu Ghraib to Camp Bucca," Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-N.Y.) said at a Senate hearing Friday into the explosive abuse charges. "In fact, some of the same people, some of the same command, some of the same MPs [military police] were involved apparently.

Gen. Janis Karpinski, who as head of the 800th Military Police Brigade - based in Uniondale, L.I. - oversaw all the U.S. detention facilities in Iraq and supervised Phillabaum, told Army investigators their failure to properly punish the soldiers at Camp Bucca led to the outrages at Abu Ghraib.

"The decisions were made to give the guilty people at Bucca plea bargains," Karpinski said in the report. "So, the system communicated to the soldiers, 'The worst that's gonna happen is you're gonna go home.'"

Karpinski, who is back home in Hilton Head, S.C., could be stripped of her command because of the abuses that happened on her watch. Her lawyer, Neil Puckett, said "the abuses at Abu Ghraib are related to what happened at Camp Bucca."

"Some of the MPs who were up at Camp Bucca were indeed transferred to Abu Ghraib," Puckett said. "I believe there were relationships between the folks charged now and folks who were separated from the military back then. I wonder if there is a more widespread problem."

Phillabaum, commander of the 320th Military Police Battalion, based in Ashley, Pa., faces official reprimands for what Taguba called his "extremely ineffective" leadership.

Troops told Taguba that they rarely saw Phillabaum or Karpinski.

Phillabaum did not return calls to his Lansdale, Pa., home.

Other top commanders in the unit also received scathing assessments by Taguba, with two majors called "essentially dysfunctional" and another top officer "unwilling to accept responsibility."

In addition, the military police were told to "'set the conditions' for MI [military intelligence] interrogations," the report said.

Taguba said the tactic that "military police actively set the favorable conditions for subsequent interviews runs counter to the smooth operation of a detention facility."

LINK
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post #252 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by billybobsky
NaplesX,
I have avoided this thread because I thought most people would concur that these inhuman acts tarnish not only those responsible but the US military and by default the United States itself. A handful of individuals who represent this nation (and they are told that they do) who commit such crimes are in the unique position to tarnish the reputation of the individuals tortured and the US. These acts, while perhaps the acts of individuals, cannot be tossed aside as simply acts of a few bad apples because of the position these individuals hold in representing the us...

Well then, if we are to go along with that, we must all be guilty by association, because of US citizenship.

Extremely tortured logic.
post #253 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
Institutionalized and systematic violence and torture of political prisoners who are protected by the Geneva Conventions. Do you condemn or condone acts such as this that I have described? And if you condemn them, how would capital punishment not fit this crime that I (and the media) have described?

And no, I'm not forgetting innocent until proven guilty. Obviously I expect those charged to be found guilty before any punishment could be addressed. I'm discussing the penalty for a crime, only applicable once someone is found guilty in a court of law. Any reasonable and rational person should be able to tell that's what's being discussed.

If this was a court of law, you would be shot down smartly for lack of evidence for your accusations.

Institutional?

Systematic?
post #254 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Well then, if we are to go along with that, we must all be guilty by association, because of US citizenship.

Extremely tortured logic.

I'm not sure I get your point.

Police officers in uniform are held to a higher standard than ordinary citizens. They can be fired for whistling at a cute girl. Does that make us all guilty of sexual harassment?

People in uniform are held (or should be held) to a higher standard when they are in uniform. It's that simple. Continuing to deny that this paints the US occupation in a less than favorable light is absurd.
post #255 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by torifile
I'm not sure I get your point.

Police officers in uniform are held to a higher standard than ordinary citizens. They can be fired for whistling at a cute girl. Does that make us all guilty of sexual harassment?

People in uniform are held (or should be held) to a higher standard when they are in uniform. It's that simple. Continuing to deny that this paints the US occupation in a less than favorable light is absurd.

Being held to a higher standard is one thing. What we are talking about here is another.

A policeman does not get the death penalty for beating someone in an interrogation, he gets fired, fined and/or jailed. By such he is held to a given standard.

Those responsible will be dealt with in a similar way, and will be ousted from the Military, thus being held to that higher standard you mention.

I am not sure where the death penalty fits in here, unless a lot of factors apply.

Also, I never said that this is not a black eye to the effort, at any point.
post #256 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
You are also forgetting the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing that we here pride ourselves in.

That "innocent until proven guilty thing" that doesn't apply to Arabs in Cuba, Afghanistan and Iraq, you mean? That "innocent until proven guilty thing" that wasn't enough to prevent this man from being beaten to death by American soldiers in American custody?

That's exactly the point. American values aren't supposed to apply to Americans alone.
post #257 of 613
Time magazine have come into possession of a Pentagon Email memo that clearly states that the leaked Tugabe report into the abuses was classified.

Strangely, the memo is underlining that dissemination of this report is an offence which will result in prosecution.

Question time:

Why was a report into these abuse classified ?

What would have happened if it had not leaked and the pictures not come out ? Would we even know of these abuses ?

Why is/was the memo more concerned with prosecuting disseminators of the leaked report than the abuse ?
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post #258 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Why was a report into these abuse classified ?

Because someone thought it would be damaging to the US, its administration and the war on terror if reports of war crimes by US soldiers were known to the public. Obviously the same person felt the reputation of the country carried more weight than the suffering of Iraqis under american hand.

To be completely fair, things like this happen anywhere. There is always a tendency to cover up uncomfortable truths. And this is why an independent press and investigative journalism are so important parts of democratic countries.

Quote:
What would have happened if it had not leaked and the pictures not come out ? Would we even know of these abuses ?

It would have been declassified some decades into the future. More interesting: would anyone have cared if only reports and no photos would have leaked?
post #259 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
We are talking about a handful of people acting outside of common decency.

I've come to the conclusion that you are a Bush doctrine supporter tooth and nail. No matter what the situation, you will defend this corrupt administration. You refuse to dig into situations to find facts.

This situation was not isolated. If it were isolated it would be localized to a handfull of guards at a single prison but that simple was not the case. This involves multiple incidents at multiple facilities involving prisions run by both British and US troops. The military leadership have had knowledge of these pictures and acts in one form or another since mid January yet nothing was done until 60 minutes broke the story. Point of fact is there was a concerted effort to keep these acts from the public eye in an effert to maintain support for this conflict.

Quote:
SMITH:_Sir, we knew that there were photos on June 14th because that's how the investigation started -- I mean January 14th._When the soldier...

source

If you read the entire transcript (or watch the proceedings) you'll see that CBS was contacted about this story and asked not to air it. This was a cover up of a systematic problem, not an isolated incident.

Jesus Damn man, Bush didn't even find out about these photos until he saw them on TV!!! This was a coverup of a systematic problem.
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post #260 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Well then, if we are to go along with that, we must all be guilty by association, because of US citizenship.

Extremely tortured logic.

You are stalling and dodging simple questions. Again:
Quote:
Do you condemn or condone acts such as this that I have described? And if you condemn them, how would capital punishment not fit this crime that I (and the media) have described?

If you don't feel fit to answer those questions, please state so instead of trying to sidetrack the thread. Thanks.
post #261 of 613
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post #262 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
If this was a court of law, you would be shot down smartly for lack of evidence for your accusations.

Institutional?

Systematic?

"ICRC spokesman Roland Huguenin-Benjamin said the treatment of Iraqi prisoners "is not acceptable, and we are very worried that this might have been done in the full knowledge of the people in charge, and eventually condoned."

"This has to be investigated and responsibility has to be taken," he added."

Link
post #263 of 613
Apparently the soldiers in the new batch of photographs belong to a different unit.

Which scuppers the 'few bad apples' theory right there.
post #264 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
That "innocent until proven guilty thing" that doesn't apply to Arabs in Cuba, Afghanistan and Iraq, you mean? That "innocent until proven guilty thing" that wasn't enough to prevent this man from being beaten to death by American soldiers in American custody?

That's exactly the point. American values aren't supposed to apply to Americans alone.

That picture shows a dead man, but does not point to how he died. If you think that flashing a picture of a dead arab is going to make anybody join AQ with you, you are fooling yourself.

I know that if this man died at the hands of his captors and through torture those responsible will be punished quickly and appropriately.

However, if he was part and parcel of the old regime, maybe he deserved it. This is what the old regime did:

http://www.kdp.pp.se/chemical.html
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/27000.htm
http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/feat.../gallery7.html

More than 300,000. That is roughly the population of Tampa Florida!

Unlike the military that murdered innocent civilians at Halabja and all over Iraq, with blessing of their president and at will, the soldiers that committed these comparably minor offenses will be held to task, you can bet on it.
post #265 of 613
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post #266 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
However, if he was part and parcel of the old regime, maybe he deserved it.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #267 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge

Why do you parse my words from the whole post?

Insane.
post #268 of 613
Stop parsing NaplesX he doesn't like that.
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post #269 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Why do you parse my words from the whole post?

Insane.

Because these little quotes show your true color. You said these thing so don't bitch when people bring them up again. If you don't like being parsed then make sure you're not saying crazy shit like "However, if he was part and parcel of the old regime, maybe he deserved it."

[edit]

Or, "Maybe I am just oversimplifying here, but I would rather face a broom stick up my ass over the threat of my whole family and all of their friend being wiped out, or getting dipped it flesh eating acid or any of the other sick torture methods that SH and Co. had in store which inevitably ended in death."
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #270 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by faust9
Because these little quotes show your true color. You said these thing so don't bitch when people bring them up again. If you don't like being parsed then make sure your not saying crazy shit like "However, if he was part and parcel of the old regime, maybe he deserved it."

I put a little bit of thought into the word I post. These are complicated issues with questions and answers that require more than one word either way.

I think that my entire post points out what my true colors are. I think this matter should be looked at in a balanced manner and sorted through, considering all sides.

The thing that really makes me wonder about motivations here is that there is no real outcry over killing and torture and needless deaths that happen at the hands of any other government but the US.

It seems a little off kilter, no?
post #271 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I put a little bit of thought into the word I post. These are complicated issues with questions and answers that require more than one word either way.

I think that my entire post points out what my true colors are. I think this matter should be looked at in a balanced manner and sorted through, considering all sides.

The thing that really makes me wonder about motivations here is that there is no real outcry over killing and torture and needless deaths that happen at the hands of any other government but the US.

It seems a little off kilter, no?

This thread is about OUR actions with respect to Iraqi prisoners. If you want to discuss the responses and actions of other governments then I suggest you start another thread.

I will say this again. If you make crazy statements then don't bitch when these crazy statements are rehashed. These little blurbs hidden in your well thought out post are very telling like it our not. When you make statements like "...maybe he deserved it." then you are showing your true colors regardless of the rest of the post. We are Americans. We don't torture (capital punishment aside) inmates here or abroad whether they deserved it or not.

If you say crazy shit then don't bitch when it is brought up again. Don't complain about motives because you seem to be the only olne defending these actions which raises questions about your motives.

If you make statements about broomsticks in the ass being preferred as a means of lessening the weight of this atrocity then expect to be parsed.

[edit]

These are your words. You said them.
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post #272 of 613
New posted this picture on January 4, 2003.

It isn't difficult to find evidence of systematic maltreatment of Iraqi prisoners and it's not difficult to see how we ended up where we have.

Incidentally, just for our amusement, when New posted it, trumptman replied:

Quote:
Well my comment is that he had put on this hood of some short and is free to take it off. If you look it doesn't look as if he hands are tied, cuffed, or secured in some manner.



pscates, ironically enough, posted this:

Quote:
Well, compared to how OUR POWs are being treated, we actually are, aren't we?

You don't actually think/believe U.S. soldiers are torturing, raping and mutilating the Iraqi soldiers we're holding? You don't, do you?



One mrmister said this:

Quote:
I still don't know about the picture: did he hood himself? What's going on? In the lack of other data, I suspect maybe he's tired of reporters takling his picture.



Aww.
post #273 of 613
Just made this...



Please don't link to it, though.
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post #274 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX

More than 300,000. That is roughly the population of Tampa Florida!

This is why the old regime was called a dictatorship and was internationally isolated, invaded, and members of all ranks captured or shot on sight.

So, do you or don't you believe that constitutional democracies are free to "get away" with war crimes as long as the body count stays reasonably low or do you believe that war crimes need to be punished without making silly excuses?
post #275 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
New posted this picture on January 4, 2003.

It isn't difficult to find evidence of systematic maltreatment of Iraqi prisoners and it's not difficult to see how we ended up where we have.
Incidentally, just for our amusement, when New posted it, trumptman replied:
Quote:
Well my comment is that he had put on this hood of some short and is free to take it off. If you look it doesn't look as if he hands are tied, cuffed, or secured in some manner.

pscates, ironically enough, posted this:
Quote:
Well, compared to how OUR POWs are being treated, we actually are, aren't we?

You don't actually think/believe U.S. soldiers are torturing, raping and mutilating the Iraqi soldiers we're holding? You don't, do you

One mrmister said this:
Quote:
I still don't know about the picture: did he hood himself? What's going on? In the lack of other data, I suspect maybe he's tired of reporters takling his picture

Aww.

Amazing, too, that after everything that's happened we still see posts like these on a daily basis.
post #276 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
That picture shows a dead man, but does not point to how he died. If you think that flashing a picture of a dead arab is going to make anybody join AQ with you, you are fooling yourself.

I know that if this man died at the hands of his captors and through torture those responsible will be punished quickly and appropriately.

Get yourself up to speed

You do realize that there is a mountain of info concerning Abu-Ghraib, don't you?

Here is just one passage from the most famous of the articles (do you know where to find it?) written on these prisoners:
Quote:
In November, Frederick wrote, an Iraqi prisoner under the control of what the Abu Ghraib guards called O.G.A., or other government agenciesthat is, the C.I.A. and its paramilitary employeeswas brought to his unit for questioning. They stressed him out so bad that the man passed away. They put his body in a body bag and packed him in ice for approximately twenty-four hours in the shower. . . . The next day the medics came and put his body on a stretcher, placed a fake IV in his arm and took him away. The dead Iraqi was never entered into the prisons inmate-control system, Frederick recounted, and therefore never had a number.

That's from Staff Sgt. Ivan L. Frederick's diary.

From an ABC story:
Quote:
The photographs show a 52-year-old former Baath Party official, Nadem Sadoon Hatab, who died at the detention center last June after a three-day period in which he was allegedly subjected to beatings and karate kicks to the chest and left to die naked in his own feces.

Abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Camp White Horse was allegedly carried out by U.S. Marine reservists. The accused reservists have told their lawyers they were given orders to "soften up" the men in their custody for interrogation by what were known as human exploitation teams from military intelligence.
...

According to testimony in the case, Hatab was targeted for especially harsh treatment because he was believed to be in possession of Jessica Lynch's 507th Army Battalion weapon and suspected of involvement in the ambush of her unit.

There is a ton of info out there about all of this. We are reading it. I suggest you do yourself a favor and read it as well before coming in here making clearly uninformed comments.
post #277 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Well then, if we are to go along with that, we must all be guilty by association, because of US citizenship.

Extremely tortured logic.

I didn't say we are guilty, I said that these men and women tarnished our international reputation. Yes, you do have tortured logic...
post #278 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
However, if he was part and parcel of the old regime, maybe he deserved it.

Any maybe he deserved to have had a trial before he was executed.

Maybe he was. Maybe he wasn't. Maybe he was a torturer and maybe he was completely, spotlessly innocent. We won't get the chance to find out now, will we?

Maybe he shouldn't have been beaten to death in American custody without a trial.

Maybe American soldiers shouldn't be beating Iraqi prisoners to death without first establishing their guilt in a fair and impartial way.

Maybe you think it's OK for American soldiers to beat an Iraqi man to death in custody because "he might have deserved it." Or because it's OK: you have the greatest Constitution in the world.

Maybe "he might have deserved it" is a defence that will hold up in court in America.

"Mr Sabeh, do you deny that you killed Johnny MacTavish, a perfect stranger to you, on the night in question?

"No, your honour, I don't. But he might have deserved it."
post #279 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
join AQ with you

I just noticed what you said to hassan here. If this says what I think it does, you need help.
post #280 of 613
Guys you're parsing again. NaplesX is simply trying to say the US is great, can do no wrong, don't question the war, all is right in the world, and Bush is number 1. Rember, bad things only happen to bad people. These tortured Iraqis MUST have deserved what they got so why bother investigate beyond the administrations assertions. Jeez people.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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