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this is appalling, abuse of Iraqi prisoners - Page 8

post #281 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah

being the father of a three year old girl, this picture just makes me want to cry...
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
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Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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post #282 of 613
The picture of the naked Iraqi prisoner cowering in front of the guard dogs is only the first of a series. They actually let the dogs attack the man, of which there are apparently more photos. From the New Yorker article:

Quote:
One of the new photographs shows a young soldier, wearing a dark jacket over his uniform and smiling into the camera, in the corridor of the jail. In the background are two Army dog handlers, in full camouflage combat gear, restraining two German shepherds. The dogs are barking at a man who is partly obscured from the cameras view by the smiling soldier. Another image shows that the man, an Iraqi prisoner, is naked. His hands are clasped behind his neck and he is leaning against the door to a cell, contorted with terror, as the dogs bark a few feet away. Other photographs show the dogs straining at their leashes and snarling at the prisoner. In another, taken a few minutes later, the Iraqi is lying on the ground, writhing in pain, with a soldier sitting on top of him, knee pressed to his back. Blood is streaming from the inmates leg. Another photograph is a closeup of the naked prisoner, from his waist to his ankles, lying on the floor. On his right thigh is what appears to be a bite or a deep scratch. There is another, larger wound on his left leg, covered in blood.

This is my first post in this thread - although I have read most of the posts along the way. This whole matter has left me so depressed and enraged that I feel I can add very little of use to the discussion here. I do thank those who have stuck with this thread and made numerous thoughtful comments.
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tribalfusion?
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post #283 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Oh so you guys read a post thoroughly and strive to comprehend it and put it into the proper context when it agrees with you, but when it does not, screw it.

I did this little exorcize to demonstrate your own tactics and how transparent you are all being.

Live and learn.

Dude, you are fucking priceless.
post #284 of 613
How can you do such a thing..?

War/no war, whatever, but how can you as a human do such a thing to another person...
What contemptible scoundrel has stolen the cork to my lunch? _(W.C. Fields)
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What contemptible scoundrel has stolen the cork to my lunch? _(W.C. Fields)
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post #285 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX:
That picture shows a dead man, but does not point to how he died. If you think that flashing a picture of a dead arab is going to make anybody join AQ with you, you are fooling yourself.

I have made friends for life in al'Qaeda. I admit that some of those lives will be shorter than others but we will all meet again, inshallah, in gardens full of kohl-eyed houris drinking lime juice and water.

Seriously, the time I spent in the camps in Afghanistan will stay with me for the rest of my life. (Whenever that may or may not end, I'm not really at liberty to say, suffice it to say that this may well be one of the last posts you will read from me.) I remember prom night, how I nervously took Jamilla (I think) to the well in the company of her brothers and uncles; my valedictorian speech treating with the correct method of sealing explosives into new Reeboks, oceans of Zionist blood, whether George Shaitan Bush was correctly a 'pig', a 'dog' or a 'monkey' ('monkey' I believe is correct.)

Happy days.
post #286 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
I have made friends for life in al'Qaeda. I admit that some of those lives will be shorter than others but we will all meet again, inshallah, in gardens full of kohl-eyed houris drinking lime juice and water.

Seriously, the time I spent in the camps in Afghanistan will stay with me for the rest of my life. (Whenever that may or may not end, I'm not really at liberty to say, suffice it to say that this may well be one of the last posts you will read from me.) I remember prom night, how I nervously took Jamilla (I think) to the well in the company of her brothers and uncles; my valedictorian speech treating with the correct method of sealing explosives into new Reeboks, oceans of Zionist blood, whether George Shaitan Bush was correctly a 'pig', a 'dog' or a 'monkey' ('monkey' I believe is correct.)

Happy days.

I am not sure what to make of this post...

But it definitely isn't humorous (i feel like crying actually)...
post #287 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by billybobsky
I am not sure what to make of this post...

But it definitely isn't humorous (i feel like crying actually)...

NaplesX said I was posting pictures of "dead Arabs" to try and get people to join me in al'Qaeda. So I thought I'd reminisce about my times in the mountains.

Ignore these posts, people, sorry. Address the topic. I'm thread death right now.
post #288 of 613
ah... my satire meter must be on ultra low sensitivity...
post #289 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
NaplesX said I was posting pictures of "dead Arabs" to try and get people to join me in al'Qaeda. So I thought I'd reminisce about my times in the mountains.

Ignore these posts, people, sorry. Address the topic. I'm thread death right now.

You see, that's what happens when you parse words instead of taking the time to "...stive to comprehend..." the entire post.
"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #290 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Why do you parse my words from the whole post?

Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
[Because] you are...forgetting the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing that we here pride ourselves in.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #291 of 613
I'm just wondering what exactly has to be revealed for some people to see a problem here. Thankfully most people of any political perspective seem to be seeing that something is very, very wrong.

According to an article in the London Evening Standard, Amnesty will tomorrow release a report detailing the worst abuses yet.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #292 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
NaplesX said I was posting pictures of "dead Arabs" to try and get people to join me in al'Qaeda. So I thought I'd reminisce about my times in the mountains.

Ignore these posts, people, sorry. Address the topic. I'm thread death right now.

Additionally, I don't think posting pictures here on AI will recruit more AQ operatives. I think the photos are more readily available from actual news sources. Wouldn't you agree Naples?

"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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"[Saddam's] a bad guy. He's a terrible guy and he should go. But I don't think it's worth 800 troops dead, 4500 wounded -- some of them terribly -- $200 billion of our treasury and counting, and...
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post #293 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
All of you people are ridiculous....

[...]

Noone in their right mind thought it was right to do those things to these prisoners, but the level of outrage over criminals and terrorists is a little off balance.

[etc., etc.]



Regarding the "criminals and terrorists" angle, it is worth taking note that a recent international Red Cross report cites coalition intelligence officers estimates that 70-90 percent of Iraqi detainees were arrested by mistake. Think of that when considering this whole matter. Consider, for example, how you would feel - picked up by mistake in the middle of the night - not seeing family or friends for months on end - not having any legal right or means to even question your detention - and being subject to such treatment.

Further, regarding the criminal and terrorists angle, it is important to note, of course, that basic human rights to be free of torture and other abuse apply with respect to those detained even on well-founded suspicion. Those who violate such standards are themselves committing serious crimes.
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tribalfusion?
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post #294 of 613
The disturbing aspect of this thread, apart from the material itself, is the attitude of several of the board's conservatives, who imply approval of the abuse, act as apologists for those who did it, or deny that such stuff could happen in the first place.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #295 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
The disturbing aspect of this thread, apart from the material itself, is the attitude of several of the board's conservatives, who imply approval of the abuse, act as apologists for those who did it, or deny that such stuff could happen in the first place.

sjo, I actually find most disturbing the fact that some of the posters (well, just Naples X, as he seems alone in this thread... the other Bush apologists, SDW, Scott, trumpt, et al are conspicuously absent ) seem to think that the Americans accused of this abuse are "innocent until proven guilty" and those being tortured/abused/raped/sodomized/murdered/whatever "deserved it."

I think this double standard is sickening and speaks to why much of the world dislikes the US.
post #296 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by torifile
I think this double standard is sickening and speaks to why much of the world dislikes the US.

I'm not sure they do. The Middle East is a lost cause, OK, but for the most part everyone dislikes your leaders, not the people who voted for them.

When Bush came to London last year, a newspaper poll found that something just less than %70 of Britons thought that the US was a 'force for good' (or something like that) and less than %50 of Britons thought that Bush should be made welcome. Can't remember the exact figures, but I'm pretty sure that's accurate.
post #297 of 613
From Hersh's latest article:
Quote:
When [Rumsfeld] did [view the photos], they were hard to believe, he said. There are other photos that depict . . . acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel, and inhuman. Later, he said, Its going to get still more terrible, Im afraid. Rumsfeld added, I failed to recognize how important it was.

NBC News later quoted U.S. military officials as saying that the unreleased photographs showed American soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi prisoner, and acting inappropriately with a dead body. The officials said there also was a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys.
post #298 of 613
Bear in mind that Naples is of the "time will tell if there are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq" school.

Now he councels patience and open mindedness in the face of these attrocities.

I guess when reality intrudes on one's ideology, it is always possible to defer judgement forever, thereby striving to appear "reasonable" while refusing to face facts.

You know, like the Bush administration and its constant calls for "more evidence" in the face of things like ecological degradation.

When combined with a willingness to jump right in when the water suits you, ala the evidence thin attack on Iraq or Naples intimations of "guilty until proven innocent" when it comes to Iraqis, you get the moral incoherence and weirdly shifting rationales displayed here.

Now combine that with the self righteous "with us or against us" rhetoric of unquestioned American innocence and you get just plain old stupid, which would be kinda funny if it wasn't the dominate ideology of the day.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #299 of 613
Quote:
Red Cross delegates saw U.S. military intelligence officers mistreating prisoners under interrogation at Abu Ghraib and collected allegations of abuse at more than 10 other detention facilities, including the military intelligence section at Camp Cropper at Baghdad International Airport and the Tikrit holding area, according to the report.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040510/D82FUT9O1.html

Systemic, not necessarily systematic.
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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post #300 of 613
You people are funny, yet not in a ha ha way.

First, let me say this and make it clear, I do not apologize for, condone, support or favor what these cowards and exploiters did to those prisoners. If you say that I do, you are a liar and coward of the worst kind. Make no mistake about it.

Second, I as always am supporting that everyone chill and let the evidence come out. Time makes things clear. Too many of you jump to conclusions way too soon and help encourage hatred and bad feelings toward this country, and more impotently it's citizens IMO. I is also my opinion that those that do this are actually helping those wish to harm us. I for one, will speak out against it, for the sake of at least my wife and kids. So get used to it. Name calling and trying to marginalize me will not make me stop.

I have been very clear on my stance on this and other matters. You do not show any mental strength or debating ability or intellectual honesty by parsing tidbits of my or anybody's posts and projecting some special knowledge of my motivations.

I think that I always answer direct questions as to my opinions and explain why I feel the way I do. So just ask me and when I check my email and have the time I will reply.

I thought that is how this whole thing was supposed to go.

Maybe I am wrong.
post #301 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
You people are funny, yet not in a ha ha way.

First, let me say this and make it clear, I do not apologize for, condone, support or favor what these cowards and exploiters did to those prisoners. If you say that I do, you are a liar and coward of the worst kind. Make no mistake about it.

Second, I as always am supporting that everyone chill and let the evidence come out. Time makes things clear. Too many of you jump to conclusions way too soon and help encourage hatred and bad feelings toward this country, and more impotently it's citizens IMO. I is also my opinion that those that do this are actually helping those wish to harm us. I for one, will speak out against it, for the sake of at least my wife and kids. So get used to it. Name calling and trying to marginalize me will not make me stop.

I have been very clear on my stance on this and other matters. You do not show any mental strength or debating ability or intellectual honesty by parsing tidbits of my or anybody's posts and projecting some special knowledge of my motivations.

I think that I always answer direct questions as to my opinions and explain why I feel the way I do. So just ask me and when I check my email and have the time I will reply.

I thought that is how this whole thing was supposed to go.

Maybe I am wrong.

Naples, I generally stay out of political discussions here and I don't want to get into an inflamed argument with you about this. But, I'd like for you to reconcile couple things for me:

1) You preach "innocent until proven guilty" about the American soldiers allegedly engaging in this abuse yet you say "maybe he deserved it" regarding the dead Iraqi posted above.

and,

2) You favor "chilling" and waiting for "evidence to come out" yet you approved of a preemptive strike against Iraq rather than waiting for the weapons inspectors to do their job.

Could you help me out in understanding your beliefs regarding these inconsistencies? This is a direct question that I'd like for you to answer. Thank you very much.
post #302 of 613
On-topic update. CNN tells us that
Quote:
a report completed in February by the International Committee of the Red Cross and leaked to media outlets Monday found that up to 90 percent of Iraqis held by U.S. and allied troops have been arrested by mistake.

So. Up to %90 of the people in this here prison might be there for no reason at all. The dead guy was probably a baker called Raed.
post #303 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX

Second, I as always am supporting that everyone chill and let the evidence come out. Time makes things clear. Too many of you jump to conclusions way too soon and help encourage hatred and bad feelings toward this country, and more impotently it's citizens IMO. I is also my opinion that those that do this are actually helping those wish to harm us.

Oh, hell - quick, someone lock this thread! I had no idea that we were helping terra-wrists by expressing our outrage at the behavior of American soldiers and their commanders (all the way up to the Chief one) that allowed (and in some cases encouraged) this behavior that even you, Naples, agree is very wrong.

Hey, do you think that maybe those soldiers and their commanders, are the ones helping the cause of the terra-wrists instead of us? Maybe it's their actions that are encouraging hatred and bad feelings for their country, instead of our reaction to them? NAAA - couldn't be!! The patriotic thing to do is to stick your head in the sand and ignore it!! I like your line of thinking Naples.
Quote:
I for one, will speak out against it, for the sake of at least my wife and kids. So get used to it. Name calling and trying to marginalize me will not make me stop.

You continue to speak out against those who have a problem with the actions of these soldiers and commanders, and those of us not wearing partisan blinders will continue to disagree with you. Feel free to "parse" my response (also known as "replying directly to specific points").
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post #304 of 613
OK, its now been boiled down to this:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...soner_abuse_19

Bush says that the abuse is just "a few isolated cases"...but the Red Cross maintains that it is "widespread, routine" and up to 90% of the detainees had been arrested "by mistake".

There is a yawning chasm between the two stories: someone is lying.

I wonder who?
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #305 of 613
I was watching the news tonight and some congressman (don't know who) explicitly said he doesn't blame the soldiers, but the internet for this. :!!!: I wish I caught his name.
post #306 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by torifile
Naples, I generally stay out of political discussions here and I don't want to get into an inflamed argument with you about this. But, I'd like for you to reconcile couple things for me:

1) You preach "innocent until proven guilty" about the American soldiers allegedly engaging in this abuse yet you say "maybe he deserved it" regarding the dead Iraqi posted above.

and,

2) You favor "chilling" and waiting for "evidence to come out" yet you approved of a preemptive strike against Iraq rather than waiting for the weapons inspectors to do their job.

Could you help me out in understanding your beliefs regarding these inconsistencies? This is a direct question that I'd like for you to answer. Thank you very much.

Thank you for being civil, there is a serious lack of it these days.

1) The statement was my way of pointing out that no-one here knows who it is they are defending. As a matter of fact, no-one knows the true story surrounding that picture. He may very well be a lowly baker, as just stated, but then again he just as easily could be a SH loyalist directly involved in the crimes of that regime, or even a terrorist from Pakistan. Or then again he could be both. Who knows. Maybe a better choice of words was in order.

2) I know that many will accuse me of repeating talking points, but this is how I feel about the Iraq war issue:

13 years of sanctions and resolutions, and now we know, corruption, not to mention the constant and unrelenting acts of war and noncompliance, did not give the US or the world much choice. I see that as being fairly patient.

I also feel that 9/11 changes the whole landscape with regard to diplomacy and war. Iraq and SH proved to be a threat to the US. Invading Iraq removed a known enemy state to the US and it's citizens, not to mention a relative oasis for terrorist types. It also removed a possible WMD supplier to the outlaw groups all around there. It also gave the US a strategic stance in the ME, a long standing problem for the US.

Most people on both sides agree that SH an Co. had to be dealt with sooner or later. I am a person that tries to take care of problems asap, so I do not see a problem with the action.

Don't get me wrong, war sucks, but I don't see that the President had much of a choice. I feel that the success that AQ had on 9/11 mobilized, emboldened and motivated terrorist groups and rogue nations around the globe. Bush/US had to show some real strength, Iraq afforded them the opportunity to do so.

This is my thinking on those questions. I make no claim to know anything more than anyone else on these subjects, but this is the way I see things, and this is how it makes sense to me. I could be wrong.
post #307 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by New

being the father of a three year old girl, this picture just makes me want to cry...

I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks the Iraq abuse was just a few bad apples in some isolated incidents is just not thinking. This was just another example of the "ends-justifies-the-means" approach of the Bush administration. The same General Miller who ran Gitmo advised that Iraqi prison on how to "exploit detainees" (direct quote).
post #308 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
OK, its now been boiled down to this:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...soner_abuse_19

Bush says that the abuse is just "a few isolated cases"...but the Red Cross maintains that it is "widespread, routine" and up to 90% of the detainees had been arrested "by mistake".

There is a yawning chasm between the two stories: someone is lying.

I wonder who?

If someone were to ask you, it would be your president and any elected officials that happen to have a (R) behind their name.

We will see right?
post #309 of 613
Naples.

Try to wake up.

Just try....
What contemptible scoundrel has stolen the cork to my lunch? _(W.C. Fields)
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What contemptible scoundrel has stolen the cork to my lunch? _(W.C. Fields)
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post #310 of 613
...Red cross reports abuses systemic...

big surprise there... actually, i wish it wasn't true but everything the bush administration has allowed with guantanamo bay etc...
post #311 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by piwozniak
Naples.

Try to wake up.

Just try....

What does that mean, exactly?

Wake up to what?
post #312 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Thank you for being civil, there is a serious lack of it these days.

1) The statement was my way of pointing out that no-one here knows who it is they are defending. As a matter of fact, no-one knows the true story surrounding that picture. He may very well be a lowly baker, as just stated, but then again he just as easily could be a SH loyalist directly involved in the crimes of that regime, or even a terrorist from Pakistan. Or then again he could be both. Who knows. Maybe a better choice of words was in order.

In our American system of justice, it doesn't matter at all what these people "might" have been. They are entitled to a certain level of treatment.
That's the whole point of the "rule of law"; it doesn't allow for "feelings" to be acted on, it requires process and evidence.

So IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO WE ARE DEFENDING because we are not "defending" individuals but the whole edifice of justice, as ostensibly adhered to by the US.

I'll remind you, again, that "that whole edifice of justice" is a lynch pin in the "American way of life" that we are holding up as the alternative to murderous despots.

By musing about the possible culpability of the abused prisoners, you are in effect at least allowing for the notion that foreign detainees are subject to torture if a local military authority judges them to be "bad guys". There is no other way to read this, it's pretty much an either/or concept. Either you think justice must applied every single time via the rule of law, without recourse to notions of proximate "badness", or you are implying that American justice means little to you, that it is a situational notion that can be discarded if you feel the accused are really really bad.

I think that is a horrible way to think, and I think it does real harm to very fabric of liberty and democracy.



Quote:
2) I know that many will accuse me of repeating talking points, but this is how I feel about the Iraq war issue:

13 years of sanctions and resolutions, and now we know, corruption, not to mention the constant and unrelenting acts of war and noncompliance, did not give the US or the world much choice. I see that as being fairly patient.

I also feel that 9/11 changes the whole landscape with regard to diplomacy and war. Iraq and SH proved to be a threat to the US. Invading Iraq removed a known enemy state to the US and it's citizens, not to mention a relative oasis for terrorist types. It also removed a possible WMD supplier to the outlaw groups all around there. It also gave the US a strategic stance in the ME, a long standing problem for the US.

Most people on both sides agree that SH an Co. had to be dealt with sooner or later. I am a person that tries to take care of problems asap, so I do not see a problem with the action.

Don't get me wrong, war sucks, but I don't see that the President had much of a choice. I feel that the success that AQ had on 9/11 mobilized, emboldened and motivated terrorist groups and rogue nations around the globe. Bush/US had to show some real strength, Iraq afforded them the opportunity to do so.

This is my thinking on those questions. I make no claim to know anything more than anyone else on these subjects, but this is the way I see things, and this is how it makes sense to me. I could be wrong. [/B]

I dunno, dude. If you can still say things like " Iraq and SH proved to be a threat to the US. Invading Iraq removed a known enemy state to the US and it's citizens, not to mention a relative oasis for terrorist types. " I suppose there is precious little point in debating it any further. It's not like the information is hard to come by.

I will say that there can be a real problem building a world view based on a foundation of lies, since it leads to false conclusions. Such as assuming that the people imprisoned in Iraq are likely "terrorists", since you start with the (false) assumption that Iraq was a haven for terrorists in the first place.

And I think it pretty much goes down hill from there, but we have your posts to look to to decide that.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #313 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
Oh, hell - quick, someone lock this thread! I had no idea that we were helping terra-wrists by expressing our outrage at the behavior of American soldiers and their commanders (all the way up to the Chief one) that allowed (and in some cases encouraged) this behavior that even you, Naples, agree is very wrong.

Hey, do you think that maybe those soldiers and their commanders, are the ones helping the cause of the terra-wrists instead of us? Maybe it's their actions that are encouraging hatred and bad feelings for their country, instead of our reaction to them? NAAA - couldn't be!! The patriotic thing to do is to stick your head in the sand and ignore it!! I like your line of thinking Naples.
You continue to speak out against those who have a problem with the actions of these soldiers and commanders, and those of us not wearing partisan blinders will continue to disagree with you. Feel free to "parse" my response (also known as "replying directly to specific points").

Is english your first language?

The reason I ask is, you seem to be getting a totally different translation of what I am saying.

I specifically said I am not defending these actions. And yes these actions, helped those who want to harm us. I agree with you on that totally.

If any of these soldier's superiors were supporting these kinds of things, they should also be held to task, as far up as it goes. So, I think we can agree on that. Right?

I just don't see any benefit for anyone to presume the guilt of everyone all the way up the long chain of command, to the president. Which by the way, he has taken the responsibility that is his and apologized for these actions, to the world.

I also am pretty sure it does not help the morale of soldiers to know that a huge chunk of this country has fallen into the trap of partisan politics and thinks they are all of that kind of people, that would do these things.

i personally like to believe that people are good and make the right decisions.

You can believe what you want.
post #314 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
In our American system of justice, it doesn't matter at all what these people "might" have been. They are entitled to a certain level of treatment.
That's the whole point of the "rule of law"; it doesn't allow for "feelings" to be acted on, it requires process and evidence.

So IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO WE ARE DEFENDING because we are not "defending" individuals but the whole edifice of justice, as ostensibly adhered to by the US.

I'll remind you, again, that "that whole edifice of justice" is a lynch pin in the "American way of life" that we are holding up as the alternative to murderous despots.

By musing about the possible culpability of the abused prisoners, you are in effect at least allowing for the notion that foreign detainees are subject to torture if a local military authority judges them to be "bad guys". There is no other way to read this, it's pretty much an either/or concept. Either you think justice must applied every single time via the rule of law, without recourse to notions of proximate "badness", or you are implying that American justice means little to you, that it is a situational notion that can be discarded if you feel the accused are really really bad.

I think that is a horrible way to think, and I think it does real harm to very fabric of liberty and democracy.





I dunno, dude. If you can still say things like " Iraq and SH proved to be a threat to the US. Invading Iraq removed a known enemy state to the US and it's citizens, not to mention a relative oasis for terrorist types. " I suppose there is precious little point in debating it any further. It's not like the information is hard to come by.

I will say that there can be a real problem building a world view based on a foundation of lies, since it leads to false conclusions. Such as assuming that the people imprisoned in Iraq are likely "terrorists", since you start with the (false) assumption that Iraq was a haven for terrorists in the first place.

And I think it pretty much goes down hill from there, but we have your posts to look to to decide that.

Here is the funny thing about this whole conversation:

I will go along with just about everything you just posted.

The problem that i have is tied into what you proclaim to embrace, namely proof. Our justice system is based on provable facts. Not innuendoes and rumors and political conjecture.

You and many others have accepted things that are not proven, nor likely ever to be so, based on your political bias. You have already accepted that these practices are accepted and encouraged by all in the military.

Just like the whole death penalty for generals in command, I hear a lot of opinions based on opinions and political bias and stretched logic. Not solid facts.

I did not say, by the way, that those in prisons in Iraq were terrorists, only that you nor I know what or who they are.
post #315 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I specifically said I am not defending these actions. And yes these actions, helped those who want to harm us. I agree with you on that totally.

You did say that you didn't defend those actions. But you also said about the dead Iraqi that "maybe he deserved it." That seems to be defending the actions, or at least leaving open the possibility that they could be defensible.
Quote:
I just don't see any benefit for anyone to presume the guilt of everyone all the way up the long chain of command, to the president. Which by the way, he has taken the responsibility that is his and apologized for these actions, to the world.

I blame the president and the civilian leaders in the administration because they have clearly set a tone in which the means is subordinate to the end. The Geneva Convention is optional. They put POWs in a legal no-man's-land in Cuba. They argue that they can imprison people, including American citizens, with no legal counsel and no charges. They believe their cause is more important than any faggy legal or procedural issues. As George Bush said in his 2003 state of the union, "America's purpose is more than to follow a process -- it is to achieve a result."

Quote:
I also am pretty sure it does not help the morale of soldiers to know that a huge chunk of this country has fallen into the trap of partisan politics and thinks they are all of that kind of people, that would do these things.

Has anyone said that all the soldiers are sadistic? I personally don't think any of them are bad, even the specific individuals involved. I even feel kind of bad for them in a way. To dehumanize others like that has to have a negative effect on them, too. I don't think they're necessarily bad, I just think the administration is bad. They've been bad all along. The difference is that we have pictures now.
post #316 of 613
I'll just echo BRussell here.

The abandonment of the rule of law is exactly the underpinning of what we see now. It started as soon as the Bush administration decided that "a war on terrorism" was somehow a different conflict from any in the history of man and therefore mooted every notion we may have had about the restraints of a democratic society.

These pictures are the result, not the cause, of this line of thinking.

Nobody has said that all the soldiers are sadistic.
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
Reply
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #317 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
What does that mean, exactly?

Wake up to what?

The R E A L I T Y
What contemptible scoundrel has stolen the cork to my lunch? _(W.C. Fields)
Reply
What contemptible scoundrel has stolen the cork to my lunch? _(W.C. Fields)
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post #318 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Is english your first language?

The reason I ask is, you seem to be getting a totally different translation of what I am saying.

It's not a very good, insult when you try to explain it.
post #319 of 613
Does anyone remember how Bush and his cronies vetoed U.S. membership of the International Criminal Court a couple of years back? Now perhaps we know why.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #320 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
It's not a very good, insult when you try to explain it.

It was not an insult.

A valid question. IMO.
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