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this is appalling, abuse of Iraqi prisoners - Page 2

post #41 of 613
Welcome to the internet.

It's hard to keep secrets---I know people who are tangentially involved with supply and I get PowerPoint presentations of photos that, are a bit off the beaten track, but not like these photos.

If ALL or ANY of these photos are genuine, the UMCJ will be more than suffiecient to handle the perpetrators (all of whom basically just ruined their lives.)

It's pretty for easy gallows humor to get carried away---as Robert E. Lee said:

"It is well that war is so terrible, else we should grow too fond of it."

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #42 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
If ALL or ANY of these photos are genuine,

What's the TV news equivalent to RTFA?

Kimmett also stated that these incidents were in no way isolated.

Anyway, the big issues are:

. How it is perceived in the arab world
. That this is exactly what we were supposedly there to stop
. Our troops do exactly what our propagandists say makes our 'enemies' barbaric and deserving of defeat and death. Remember the concerns about the treatment of US POWs by Iraqis? Turns out it was the Iraqis that should have feared us.

The US had to fabricate a story of prisoner mistreatment. If you need some help realizing how seriously ****ed up this is, imagine the roles reversed.

So you guys can have your little courts, but they are irrelevant.
post #43 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by stupider...likeafox


They'll probably not be too impressed by being pissed on either.

Yes and this story is a shame for the reputation of the royal army, who was very proud of their management in Iraq.

After that, will they say, that they are superior to the cow-boys *?


* cow-boys : the name they gave in private to US Soldiers.
post #44 of 613
I can honestly say that I never knew of ANY such horrendous abuse of any POWs during my time in country. However, a big difference in the "perceived" way we went to war the first time against Saddam. We had him then, we let him go.

Not to excuse this abhorrent behavior on the part of American and British troops, there is NO excuse for this. Particularly for the American troops, look at the situation they have been put into. Now many of them have to stay longer than they originally thought they would.

This is going to push many into acting out their frustrations on the "enemy". This in turn of course, will turn many more possibly moderate Iraqis against the coalition.

Time for Nightline...
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You know, what's interesting about our country is that for years we were isolated from the world by two great oceans, and for a while we got a false sense of security as a result of that. We...
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post #45 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by Artman @_@
Just so you know...that is a British soldier...can't have the Americans have all the fun...

Not the first time for the Brits either, there's a similar story from last May. This guy was not only stupid enough to abuse prisoners, he also took photos and then tried to get them developed at a local camera shop when back in the UK:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2951888.stm
a flirt with mediocrity comes with heavy penalty
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a flirt with mediocrity comes with heavy penalty
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post #46 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Welcome to the internet.

...

If ALL or ANY of these photos are genuine, the UMCJ will be more than sufficient to handle the perpetrators (all of whom basically just ruined their lives.)

...

"It is well that war is so terrible, else we should grow too fond of it."

What has the internet got to do with this? These photos are mainly screencaps from TV.

...

UMJC sufficient? Hello? "One civilian contractor was accused of raping a young male prisoner but has not been charged because military law has no jurisdiction over him"

The only life this guy has ruined is that of the Iraqi teenage boy he raped.

...

To me the troops in those photos look like they have grown "too fond" of war/mental, physical and sexual abuse of helpless prisoners. In fact it looks like they're having a whale of a time.
a flirt with mediocrity comes with heavy penalty
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a flirt with mediocrity comes with heavy penalty
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post #47 of 613
I saw the BBC report on it last night. They showed that tabloid as well and President Bush speaking about it. Was hoping for a different perspective and got it, when they noted that the images were now being aired and condemned throughout the Arab world. God we look like such hypocrits; makes me want to puke up last night's dinner.

And no, I'm not saying this is Bush's fault; I'm just saying it makes me want to puke, especially since some civilian contractors were involved (which IS the administration's fault, as far as their being there... hopefully they'll pull these losers out of Iraq and send them back to their militia clubs back home).
Aldo is watching....
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Aldo is watching....
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post #48 of 613
Here are all of the photos:

http://www.albasrah.net/images/iraqi-pow/iraqi-pow

I can't find the source for the rape photos
post #49 of 613
Really, giant are you trying to tell us that ALL of those photos are genuine? Also, the US doesn't "have to cook up" anything---anyone with a couple of extras, a copy of Photoshop, and a spare pair of BDUs could produce this crap. (I don't hear much about the "this soldier killed my dad and knocked up my sister photo anymore.) Some of those are genuine, I doubt all are---but it feeds anti-war zeal all the same.

What the "internet has to do" with this is how the photos "got out" in the first place. If ANY of ALL of these photos are genuine, it is most likely somebody emailed them out of Iraq and they found their way out into the light.

And as for private contractors engaging in rape, I had no idea there was recruiting for the University of Colorado's football program going in Iraq.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #50 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq
Hello? Can we please read the sources?

The "kid" is Brigadier General Janice Karpinski, the commander of the 800th Military Police Brigade which oversees all the U.S. detention centers in Iraq.

So it's worse on many levels, moreso than were it a mere "kid".

Err... No... The pictures does not show the Brigadier General... just some of the jerks she was in charge of...
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Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
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post #51 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Really, giant are you trying to tell us that ALL of those photos are genuine?

RTFA (or WTFC in this case)

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/Nomad667/iraq.wmv
post #52 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Some of those are genuine, I doubt all are---but it feeds anti-war zeal all the same.

It doesn't matter if ALL of them are genuine, even if only a small amount are real, the case still stands that this shit *is* happening.
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post #53 of 613
.....aaaaannnnnnnd the people in question will get a dose of UMCJ.

(Unless you are working for the U of Colorado)

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #54 of 613
Thread Starter 
the people who took and posed for the pictures should get an dishonorable dischage for putting americans more at risk for even more hatred and attacks
post #55 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by burningwheel
the people who took and posed for the pictures should get an dishonorable dischage for putting americans more at risk for even more hatred and attacks

Hell, if they're putting Americans at more risk of attack, they should be charged as terrorists. Capital Punishment. If we're not going to use it, we might as well get rid of it.
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post #56 of 613
If they are convicted of violating the Geneva conventions, they will get WAY more than a DD.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #57 of 613
I'm repeating the premise of my earlier post, but I heard a military spokesperson explain that the people running the prison had not been trained in the particulars of the Geneva Convention, and that such training would commence immediately so as to minimize the possibility of this kind of thing ever happening again.

Which again begs the question, why does it require training in the Geneva Convention to inhibit American service personnel from humiliating and abusing prisoners? Isn't that sort of.... I don't know...... part and parcel of being not a horrible person and a shitty soldier?

I keep getting this image of a soldier gong "Ohhhh, we're supposed to not use them as props for our funny pictures? So, let me get this straight, that's a bad thing? Well, hell, why didn't you just tell us? How were we supposed to know?"
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #58 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by New
Err... No... The pictures does not show the Brigadier General... just some of the jerks she was in charge of...

I stand corrected. (She's more fugly than the "kid")
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post #59 of 613
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
If they are convicted of violating the Geneva conventions, they will get WAY more than a DD.

true. i totally forgot about that. but i suspect they'll get the DD as well
post #60 of 613
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Here are all of the photos:

http://www.albasrah.net/images/iraqi-pow/iraqi-pow

I can't find the source for the rape photos

sh!t. i didn't know thet abused women as well
post #61 of 613
This kind of stuff happens in all wars. And..it's probably the tip of a very large and ugly iceberg, most of which we will never be aware of.
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #62 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by burningwheel
true. i totally forgot about that. but i suspect they'll get the DD as well

Probably spend some time making big rocks into little rocks.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #63 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Here are all of the photos:

http://www.albasrah.net/images/iraqi-pow/iraqi-pow

I can't find the source for the rape photos

That's because 16-24 are not photos of real rape but simulated rape PORN.

Some asshole added screen grabs from whatever porno movies he could find on the Net that had soldiers in it and put it into the context of the CBS photos. (Also note, the U.S. military uses desert camouflage in Iraq, not woodland or jungle camouflage.)

Albasrah.net is making a bad situation worse via disinformation. They do so elsewhere with shoddy "jounalistic" (if I dare use the word for that blatant propaganda site) practices of showing pictures with no context or incorrect context.
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post #64 of 613
Nick, Scott?

I say kill them. Why not? It's the only thing Bush does right imho. I say if someone kills or does such horrific acts to someone else they just forfeited their right to live. If they did it once they can and probably will do it again. Off with their head!!!
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post #65 of 613
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact



Another article. This seems to be getting worse.
post #66 of 613
Update:

After a thorough Google, I found this site:

(Warning: Uncensored porn images)

http://www.sexinwar.com/bac516/13/t_index.html

http://www.sexinwar.com/bac516/13/t_tour.html

The woman in Albasrah picture 16 (and others) is the same woman in:

http://www.sexinwar.com/bac516/13/images/t_11.jpg

as is the camo of the "soldiers".

The others are either also from this site or culled from similar fetish sites.

Again, they are staged, fake-rape porn. It is a specific genre of porn. The grittier the video and zero-production value, the more real it seems, i.e. the "better" it is.

--

Now, if you want to argue that the sad commentary of 1. rape, 2. soldiers raping and 3 iraqi women being raped by soldiers being erotic fetishes people seem to have (enough to warrant a pay site) we can start another thread.

But my point is don't believe everything you see as being real on the internet.

Yes, I believe the current U.S. torture stills from 60 Minutes are real. But Albasrah and similar conspiracy/propaganda sites just further degrade our ability to argue real problems by injecting lies into the facts.

Similar things are being done all the time with regards to civilian deaths, birth defects and searching/arresting/detaining civilians. Pictures are presented with no context and juxtaposed in ways to present a one sided argument.

Debunking these has -nothing- to do with my stance on any issue, one way or another, by the way.

I find this kind of deliberate tampering with facts to be as reprehensible as whatever crimes they allege to depict. And no, just because the U.S. government spins, lies, alters, hides facts doesn't make it right for others to do, especially if they are trying to garner support. You fight lies with truth, not more lies.
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post #67 of 613
If I check out those links johnq , IT security will be at my door
post #68 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by Beige_G3
If I check out those links johnq , IT security will be at my door

Ok, for those in a similar situation:

(I mosaic'd the porn site's image)



Left is the albasrah page, right is the porn site page.
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post #69 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq The "kid" is Brigadier General Janice Karpinski, the commander of the 800th Military Police Brigade which oversees all the U.S. detention centers in Iraq.

I wonder if we will have one of the TeeVee networks announce, any minute now, a mini-series on her, as was done on heroine Jessica?

- T. I.
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post #70 of 613
Quote:
Albasrah.net is making a bad situation worse via disinformation. They do so elsewhere with shoddy "jounalistic" (if I dare use the word for that blatant propaganda site) practices of showing pictures with no context or incorrect context. [/B]

If Fox News, CNN, NBC etc hadn't been licking the butt-end of the Bush Administration in the 8 months before the war started, feeding disinformation, propaganda and lies to the American people, none of this crap would have ever happened, 740 US troops and 11,000 Iraqi civilians would still be alive, we wouldn't have lost respect in the rest of the world and maybe, we could have used some of the $200 billion wasted to smash up then rebuild Iraq to go into catching bin Laden etc. The damage caused to America and the world by our own corporate media's complicity makes the any Arab media disinformation seem less than insignificant in comparison.
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post #71 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Anyway, the big issues are:
. How it is perceived in the arab world

Now that is an interesting question...

But I don't think that, in the scheme of things, the answer really matters, because in less than a couple of months the coalition forces will pull out, having, after careful planning, accomplished what they set out to do, and thus the world will be a safer place, and nations everywhere will be very grateful.

- T. I.
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post #72 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
If Fox News, CNN, NBC etc hadn't been licking the butt-end of the Bush Administration in the 8 months before the war started, feeding disinformation, propaganda and lies to the American people, none of this crap would have ever happened, 740 US troops and 11,000 Iraqi civilians would still be alive, we wouldn't have lost respect in the rest of the world and maybe, we could have used some of the $200 billion wasted to smash up then rebuild Iraq to go into catching bin Laden etc. The damage caused to America and the world by our own corporate media's complicity makes the any Arab media disinformation seem less than insignificant in comparison.

Ah, the predicted "the U.S. military/media/government did it first" argument has arrived.

I still say that there is probably ample true evidence of U.S. military injustices/crimes/atrocities without fabricating any.

The Albasrah page is intentionally designed to enrage Muslims over and above the already volatile true pictures from 60 minutes. At least they could say that "look at how Americans delight in pornographic simulations of Iraqi women being victimized" and certainly that can stand by itself as outrageous, instead of suggesting (via juxtapositioning), that they are real rape photos.

Why lie? Merely because your enemy does? Sad.

There is the slightest chance that Albasrah didn't know they were fakes. They skirted around actually saying anything about them merely that they got them via email. I hesitate to defend them, but that is a possibility.
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post #73 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by The Installer
I wonder if we will have one of the TeeVee networks announce, any minute now, a mini-series on her, as was done on heroine Jessica?

- T. I.

I've been corrected that that woman in the 60 minute pictures is not Brigadier General Janice Karpinski. The boyish woman in the pics is some other woman. I apologize for the apparent misreading.

But your point remains valid, regardless of the woman.
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post #74 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by sammi jo
If Fox News, CNN, NBC etc hadn't been licking the butt-end of the Bush Administration in the 8 months before the war started...

You see, I wonder why you, the Americans at large, let them get away with it in the first place? Where are your critical facilities?

Just look how long it's taken before you/the media woke up to the fact that it may in fact be unconstitutional not to be allowed to show the coffins arriving back home. I can't think of any other nation apart from the ones ruled by dictators where it would have been possible to be gagged in such a way (to preserve the dignity of the soldiers... yeah sure) by "the adminstration". And yet, everyone swallows it.

Part of the problem is of course that in the eyes of too many Americans, like 90% I'd say, the President is revered as God on Earth and *has* to be supported no matter what, which is, of course, very unhealthy. Now combine that with an exaggerated national pride, and you have a problem.

I was in the U.K. when Bush's poodle Bliar, was elected. Now just about everyone in the country, including about 80% of the media were in favour of him becoming Prime Minister. It was, in fact, time for a regime change. Hmmm, that rings a bell... And duly elected he was. Now did the media start crawling up his backside straight away? No. There is, by tradition, something of a month's honeymoon period, and then, if neccessary, the knives will come out. Which they duly did. Very healthy that because that way issues surface.

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- T. I.
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post #75 of 613
I don't know or care what americandaily.com's agendas might be, if any, but there is an article that I Googled on their site regarding the sexinwar.com rape fantasy site mistakenly being taken as truth in various places.

http://www.americandaily.com/item/5361

The article seems fairly factual and largely unbiased.

Apparently this website has caused trouble prior to just now.

Just linking to it for further information for discussion, not making any points.
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post #76 of 613
I have seen those porn shots before also. But it doesn't refute what 60 minutes obtained and reported.

But now it seems that in Britain they are doubting their photos...BBC ...

"However the BBC's defence correspondent Paul Adams says sources close to The Queen's Lancashire Regiment believe many aspects of the photographs are extremely suspicious.

He says they believe the pictures may not have been taken in Iraq.

- They believe the rifle is an SA80 mk 1 - which was not issued to troops in Iraq.

- They say soldiers in Iraq wore berets or hard hats - and not floppy hats as in the photos.

- They also believe the wrong type of Bedford truck is shown in the background - a type never deployed in Iraq.

Mr Blair said if there had been any abuse it was "exceptional", and should not detract from the good work being done by UK armed forces in Iraq.

However he stressed if the photos were genuine it was totally unacceptable.

"We went to Iraq to get rid of that sort of thing, not to do it," he added."

Has Britain's spin-cycle started?

I don't know how our Administration is going to explain/spin-off any of 60 Minutes report away. And a lot of the Middle East who hasn't doubted or hated us before...sure as Hell do now.

OBL - "Told ya so..."

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post #77 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by Artman @_@
I have seen those porn shots before also. But it doesn't refute what 60 minutes obtained and reported.

I in no way whatsoever implied or said that the 60 minutes photos were not real. I'm repeating that regardless as to whether or not you meant to suggest that.

People seem to only skim threads and seldom read the full context.

Once again, in case anyone is skimming, I was only refuting the pictures 16-24 on http://www.albasrah.net/images/iraqi-pow/iraqi-pow

I insist that muddying the issue by using fakes amongst the real photos only causes more harm than good.

I urge nothing more than patience before jumping to the gun and believing everything you see the first time you see it, be it Pentagon , Bush admin, or Al Qaeda or Iraqi Information Ministry or Sadr or anyone else.

It is far too easy to fake things. Doing so only distracts resources away from true incidents of abuse, which are real and are waiting to be exposed, and more importantly believed. If people become jaded with fakes, it HURTS the real cases of abuse.
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post #78 of 613
None of this seemed right---Woodland Camo in Iraq??? WTF???

But when there is so much hatred of Bush and the Iraq war---any propaganda is good propaganda.


Facts are better---I'd look to see if the pics of the stacked bodies are for real.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #79 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by dmz
Facts are better---I'd look to see if the pics of the stacked bodies are for real. [/B]

Yes, they are real, and depict real soldiers with real names who are really under arrest and facing charges. Have you even read any of the news reports, or just the headlines?

Quote:
The photographs tell it all. In one, Private England, a cigarette dangling from her mouth, is giving a jaunty thumbs-up sign and pointing at the genitals of a young Iraqi, who is naked except for a sandbag over his head, as he masturbates. Three other hooded and naked Iraqi prisoners are shown, hands reflexively crossed over their genitals. A fifth prisoner has his hands at his sides. In another, England stands arm in arm with Specialist Graner; both are grinning and giving the thumbs-up behind a cluster of perhaps seven naked Iraqis, knees bent, piled clumsily on top of each other in a pyramid. There is another photograph of a cluster of naked prisoners, again piled in a pyramid. Near them stands Graner, smiling, his arms crossed; a woman soldier stands in front of him, bending over, and she, too, is smiling.

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post #80 of 613
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by sammi jo
If Fox News, CNN, NBC etc hadn't been licking the butt-end of the Bush Administration in the 8 months before the war started, feeding disinformation, propaganda and lies to the American people, none of this crap would have ever happened, 740 US troops and 11,000 Iraqi civilians would still be alive, we wouldn't have lost respect in the rest of the world and maybe, we could have used some of the $200 billion wasted to smash up then rebuild Iraq to go into catching bin Laden etc. The damage caused to America and the world by our own corporate media's complicity makes the any Arab media disinformation seem less than insignificant in comparison.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Interesting..... Conservatives in the US harp 24 hours a day about how the mainstream media is anti-Bush, anti-troops anti-war and anti American.
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