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this is appalling, abuse of Iraqi prisoners - Page 12

post #441 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by pfflam
I must say that you quoting is kind of misleading, it seems to say that they killed the prisoners when she was saying that the prisoners died from Sand Viper bites.

I never read that - my source for this is the link I posted. The only reference to sand vipers was:

Quote:
The guard also catalogues other dangers in the jail: "This is a sand viper. One bite will kill you in six hours."

And see New's comment above also.
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post #442 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
I never read that - my source for this is the link I posted. The only reference to sand vipers was:



And see New's comment above also.

Its in the video . . . the 'Sand Viper' phrase is the first part of the sentence about the two deaths.
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--Franklin Miller.

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

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post #443 of 613
Two very good posts:
Quote:
"A Failure of Leadership" - Part II

James D. Villa, an attorney in Washington DC who used to command the now-infamous 372d MP Company, has an excellent op-ed in Wednesday's Washington Post. He makes a number of solid points in this column, and I imagine these abuses would have been caught much earlier had he been in command in late 2003. Here's the part of his argument resonated the most with me:
Quote:
These actions were the result of huge command failures. The senior person charged thus far is Ivan L. Frederick, a staff sergeant. In an MP company, a person of his rank is normally placed in charge of a squad of 11 soldiers. I refuse to believe that no leader above Frederick was aware of or complicit in the abuses that were apparently widespread throughout the prison. While certain officers were relieved of their commands and other leaders were given letters of reprimand, the failure of unit leaders, from company to brigade, is stunning.

The 372nd has approximately 150 soldiers and is divided into five platoons, four of which consist of MPs. The company commander is directly responsible for all actions taken by his soldiers, or those that they fail to take. The 372nd's commander and the relevant platoon leader either knew or should have known of the actions of their subordinates, as should have their noncommissioned officers. All these leaders failed in their most basic responsibilities of supervising their soldiers in the performance of their duties.

Brig. Gen. Janis L. Karpinski, commander of the 800th MP Brigade, which ran the prison, has spent most of the past week on television telling the same story: that she never knew about this, that her MPs were working for military intelligence people, that she was not to blame. Had she spent as much time leading her troops as she apparently has preparing for appearances on MSNBC (with her lawyer in tow), the Army might have stemmed these incidents early on. I was taught in ROTC that a leader is responsible for what his or her unit does or fails to do. I was also taught that a leader takes responsibility for his or her soldiers. Either by commission or omission, Karpinski and her chain of command have failed those soldiers in her brigade and, ultimately, this country.

Right... but until we see charges preferred against these senior officers and NCOs, the message is that the Army condones and tolerates this derelict behavior by the commanders in the 800th MP Brigade. I'm not really sure what the Army is waiting for. It seems like there's plenty of material in MG Taguba's 6,000-page report upon which to substantiate criminal charges, especially where we're talking about such a clear leadership failure.
posted by Phillip at 22:10

--------

"A Failure of Leadership"

The New York Times has the full transcript of today's Senate Armed Services Committee hearing online, and the L.A. Times has a good report on the hearing too. But all you really need to read is the following excerpt from the transcript, involving an exchange between Sen. John Warner and Army MG Antonio Taguba:
Quote:
SEN. WARNER: I ask the same question to you. In simple laymen's language, so it can be understood, what do you think went wrong, in terms of the failure of discipline and the failure of this interrogation process to be consistent with known regulations, national and international? And also, to what extent do you have knowledge of any participation by other than U.S. military, namely Central Intelligence Agency and/or contractors, in the performance of the interrogations?

GEN. TAGUBA: Sir, as far as your last question, I'll answer that first. The comments about participation of other government agencies or contractors were related to us through interviews that we conducted. It was related to our examination of written statements and, of course, some other records. With regards to your first question, sir, there was a failure of leadership --

* * *
SEN. WARNER: Can you give us a quick synopsis of participation by other U.S. government agencies?

GEN. TAGUBA: Sir, they refer to them as OGAs or MIs. And when I asked for clarification it's because of the way they wore their uniforms. Some of them did not wear a uniform, and so how would I ask them to clarify further if they knew any of these people? And they gave us names, as stipulated on their statements. They also gave us names of those who are MI, uniformed MI in personnel in the U.S. Army, and that was substantiated by the comments made to us by other witnesses as we conducted our interviews.

SEN. WARNER: Right. In simple words, your own soldiers' language, how did this happen?

GEN. TAGUBA: Failure in leadership, sir, from the brigade commander on down; lack of discipline; no training whatsoever; and no supervision. Supervisory omission was rampant. Those are my comments.

Roger that. The brigade commander, BG Janis Karpinski, has become quite proficient at pointing fingers downwards, sideways, and anywhere else but her own chest. So has the battalion commander, LTC Jerry Phillabaum. I have yet to see a military officer in this chain of command fall on his or her sword by taking command responsibility. A military commander is responsible for all that his/her unit does or fails to do. Period. End of discussion. Admirably, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld took this to heart with his opening statement to SASC last week. Unfortunately, the key leaders in the 800th MP Brigade still don't get it. They still blame others, from the CIA to their own troops, for the things that happened in their units on their watch.

The burden of command is very heavy; it's not an easy job. Commanders must do more than set standards -- they must enforce them too. You can't just tell soldiers to conduct Preventive Maintenance Checks & Services ("PMCS" in Army-speak), you have to physically visit the motor pool to make sure they're doing it. You don't just tell your soldiers to fill their canteens with water; you check them before a patrol to make sure they did. Soldiers do what leaders check. Over time, you may develop trust in a unit that lets you back off some aspects of direct supervision. But even then, you still go down to the motor pool during PMCS, even if it's just to shoot the breeze with your troops. That's what leadership is all about. It's not enough to simply pass on policy guidance from higher HQ about the Geneva Conventions and prisoner treatment. Leaders must physically check their soldiers' performance to ensure the standards are being met. Higher level commanders must also physically inspect what's going on, to ensure that the right thing is being done.

Soldiers do what leaders check. It's a fundamental principle hammered into every lieutenant at the National Training Center, Joint Readiness Training Center, Ranger School, and countless other leadership-training courses. But it wasn't followed here. The leaders in this MP brigade slacked off. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt -- they probably did establish some standards of behavior for their MPs. But they failed to enforce them. They failed to get up and make midnight spot-checks on their troops. They failed to establish supervisory systems to ensure the standards were being met. And the result was that this behavior went on for far too long, undetected and unchecked.

Ultimately, these leaders must be held accountable for these failures. Administrative reprimands, like the ones given so far, are wholly insufficient in my opinion. The Army is prosecuting soldiers for criminal conduct at Abu Ghraib; it should prosecute their leaders as well. What sort of a messages does it send to the average soldier in the field when you hammer these junior troops but let their officers off with a slap on the wrist? Not a good one, in my opinion.
posted by Phillip at 18:20

http://philcarter.blogspot.com/2004_...33889009465923
post #444 of 613
New abu Ghraib photo may show intelligence officers in charge of abuse.
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post #445 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
New abu Ghraib photo may show intelligence officers in charge of abuse.

More interesting information, including some I've not seen mentioned or discussed before:
Quote:
Meanwhile, U.S. troops_ who served at Abu Ghraib said Thursday that sex and alcoholism were commonplace among guards even though they were forbidden. Soldiers even set up a candle-lit room for sex shows, they said.

There was lots of affairs. There was all kinds of adultery and alcoholism and all kinds of crap going on, Dave Bischel, a National Guardsman with the 870th Military Police unit, told Reuters. Bischel returned home last month after service at Abu Ghraib.

The statements added to the reactions of lawmakers who viewed the hundreds of photos and video clips shot at Abu Ghraib. The New York Post quoted a member of Congress as saying on condition of anonymity that among the materials were numerous images showing England having sex with numerous partners.

It appeared to be consensual, the lawmaker said. The newspaper quoted another lawmaker as saying, Almost everybody was naked all the time.

Bischel told Reuters: There was a bed found in one of the abandoned buildings. There was a mattress on the ground. They had chairs all circled around it and candles all over the place. Chairs [were] around it obviously for an audience.

Sex rumors were rampant among those serving in Abu Ghraib. One of the female soldiers supposedly had sex in a gang bang, said Terry Stowe, another California MP who has since returned home. From time to time, things like this would happen.
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post #446 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
...America's sex mad and godless culture...

Maybe they do have a point?
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post #447 of 613
The editor of the Daily Mirror, publisher of the British abuse photos, has just resigned. Presumably because the photos of UK soldiers pissing on people were faked.

... Donald looks to heaven ...
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post #448 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by New
Maybe they do have a point?

nah, they just don't know how puritan we really are...
post #449 of 613
This picture shows the same behavior by apparently all black men jumping up and down on caucasian naked pyramids in art studios every where. This is a systemic problem and should be dealt with, soon.

Where is the outrage.

Models and photographers are messed up and should have never learned how to pose or take picture in the place.

https://www.phaidon.com/images/spreads/0714843652_6.jpg
post #450 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
This picture shows the same behavior by apparently all black men jumping up and down on caucasian naked pyramids in art studios every where. This is a systemic problem and should be dealt with, soon.

Where is the outrage.

Models and photographers are messed up and should have never learned how to pose or take picture in the place.

https://www.phaidon.com/images/spreads/0714843652_6.jpg

a) They willingly posed, the prisoners didn't.
b) It's not a pyramid.
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post #451 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
This picture shows the same behavior by apparently all black men jumping up and down on caucasian naked pyramids in art studios every where. This is a systemic problem and should be dealt with, soon.

Where is the outrage.

Models and photographers are messed up and should have never learned how to pose or take picture in the place.

https://www.phaidon.com/images/spreads/0714843652_6.jpg

at least you have a sense of humor.
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post #452 of 613
I just wanna see the pics of England having sex with multiple partners.

I'd comment on your post NaplesX, but I cant tell if you're being serious or taking the piss? Is England at the bottom of that pile?
post #453 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
This picture shows the same behavior by apparently all black men jumping up and down on caucasian naked pyramids in art studios every where. This is a systemic problem and should be dealt with, soon.

Where is the outrage.

Models and photographers are messed up and should have never learned how to pose or take picture in the place.

https://www.phaidon.com/images/spreads/0714843652_6.jpg


At least one of those so-called caucasians is black, bringing into question both you ability to decipher and the significance of race in that image...
post #454 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by FormerLurker
quote:
Meanwhile, U.S. troops_ who served at Abu Ghraib said Thursday that sex and alcoholism were commonplace among guards even though they were forbidden. Soldiers even set up a candle-lit room for sex shows, they said.

There was lots of affairs. There was all kinds of adultery and alcoholism and all kinds of crap going on, Dave Bischel, a National Guardsman with the 870th Military Police unit, told Reuters. Bischel returned home last month after service at Abu Ghraib.

The statements added to the reactions of lawmakers who viewed the hundreds of photos and video clips shot at Abu Ghraib. The New York Post quoted a member of Congress as saying on condition of anonymity that among the materials were numerous images showing England having sex with numerous partners.

It appeared to be consensual, the lawmaker said. The newspaper quoted another lawmaker as saying, Almost everybody was naked all the time.

Bischel told Reuters: There was a bed found in one of the abandoned buildings. There was a mattress on the ground. They had chairs all circled around it and candles all over the place. Chairs [were] around it obviously for an audience.

Sex rumors were rampant among those serving in Abu Ghraib. One of the female soldiers supposedly had sex in a gang bang, said Terry Stowe, another California MP who has since returned home. From time to time, things like this would happen.

Clearly its Satanic Ritual Abuse
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--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #455 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
I just wanna see the pics of England having sex with multiple partners.

I'd comment on your post NaplesX, but I cant tell if you're being serious or taking the piss? Is England at the bottom of that pile?

I thought it was funny the abuse that took place in Iraq look hauntingly like the art in that picture. I thought it was humorous.

Maybe they used the same photographer or they went to the same school, who knows. Maybe its a trend.
post #456 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I thought it was funny the abuse that took place in Iraq look hauntingly like the art in that picture. I thought it was humorous.

Maybe they used the same photographer or they went to the same school, who knows. Maybe its a trend.

I read an article about an art show openning in Baghdada that has sculptures based on the 'pyramid' . . . its about the US abuse of Iraq
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #457 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I thought it was funny the abuse that took place in Iraq look hauntingly like the art in that picture. I thought it was humorous.

Maybe they used the same photographer or they went to the same school, who knows. Maybe its a trend.

Those damned Egyptians, huh? Throw some blame the Aztec way, too, I suppose. Friggin' pyramids. What did they start!!

Have you compared Nic Berg's execution to any films you've seen recently and found humour in that, too?
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post #458 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
I thought it was funny the abuse that took place in Iraq look hauntingly like the art in that picture. I thought it was humorous.

Absolutely fucking hilarious
post #459 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
Absolutely fucking hilarious

Some call it abusive and embarrassing, some call it art.
post #460 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Some call it abusive and embarrassing, some call it art.

... and some find it hilarious, but just the sociopaths.
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post #461 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by audiopollution
Those damned Egyptians, huh? Throw some blame the Aztec way, too, I suppose. Friggin' pyramids. What did they start!!

Have you compared Nic Berg's execution to any films you've seen recently and found humour in that, too?

You seem to place the value of the abuses of prisoners on the same level with the brutal killing of Nick Berg IMO.

I don't see them as even being close, so no I haven't compared the two.

But that is another thread.
post #462 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Some call it abusive and embarrassing, some call it art.

Whatever it is, the participants had a choice to receive a broom in the anus.
post #463 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Some call it abusive and embarrassing, some call it art.

In another context, you may have a point. But that's just such an off-topic and untenable connection you're trying to make between willing participants in an artwork and the coerced prisoners at abu ghraib. Those prisoners didn't choose to subject themselves to various forms of torture. So let's leave it at that and move on-- let's focus on the actual topic at hand-- and not try to hijack the thread.
post #464 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
You seem to place the value of the abuses of prisoners on the same level with the brutal killing of Nick Berg IMO.

For what its worth, I see the abuse of prisoners as worse than Bergs death, For the simple reason, we did it, and we have lowered ourselves to the kind of level we'd expect from low-life scum of the earth. That IS worse.
post #465 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Some call it abusive and embarrassing, some call it art.

Hey, who remembers those two security contractors who got killed in Fallujah and strung up on that bridge? Remind anyone of Damien Hirst's meat sculptures?

Heh.

Oops. Bad comparison. They were American. Not Iraqi.

Their dignity actually matters. Sorry.
post #466 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
You seem to place the value of the abuses of prisoners on the same level with the brutal killing of Nick Berg IMO.

I don't see them as even being close, so no I haven't compared the two.

But that is another thread.

No, let's have it in this thread.

Why is the brutal killing of an American (with images) worse then the brutal killing of Iraqis (with images)?
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post #467 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
You seem to place the value of the abuses of prisoners on the same level with the brutal killing of Nick Berg IMO.

I don't see them as even being close, so no I haven't compared the two.

But that is another thread.

You seem to find humour in the suffering of others. I figure it's likely, as a sociopath, you'll be able to find some humour in the execution of Nic Berg and find a fitting googled picture to prove just how funny you are.

Your own moral indignation is far superceded by the indignation felt by the Iraqi detainees.
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post #468 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
For what its worth, I see the abuse of prisoners as worse than Bergs death, For the simple reason, we did it, and we have lowered ourselves to the kind of level we'd expect from low-life scum of the earth. That IS worse.

Who is we?

Not me or anyone I know.

I would personally confront anyone I know for such things.

Don't say we, those guys are not WE!

They will be taken care of in a fair and quick manner. They do not represent all of the good and upright people that I know.
post #469 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
You seem to place the value of the abuses of prisoners on the same level with the brutal killing of Nick Berg.

Considering that at least two (and possibly as many as ten) of the prisoners who have died in US custory are being treated as having been murdered...I'd say that yes, the abuse of prisoners is on the same level. Murder is murder.
post #470 of 613
My response to Luca in the Nick Berg thread (modified slightly)

Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
You seem to place the value of the abuses of prisoners on the same level with the brutal killing of Nick Berg IMO.

I don't see them as even being close, so no I haven't compared the two.

But that is another thread.



Not even close?

I think you forget that we killed this guy-- and other undocumented prisoners who never received numbers. Right now, the Army is investigating 25 suspicious deaths at Abu Ghraib. Again, the scale of abuses at that camp is much worse than you and other Americans may realize. Conversely, it's something that many vengeful, militant Arabs clearly understand. I would read the indispensable Seymour Hersh's latest piece, "Chain of Command" for a good background.
post #471 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by audiopollution
You seem to find humour in the suffering of others. I figure it's likely, as a sociopath, you'll be able to find some humour in the execution of Nic Berg and find a fitting googled picture to prove just how funny you are.

Your own moral indignation is far superceded by the indignation felt by the Iraqi detainees.

Oh please get off the pulpit.

I found that picture in a magazine called Creativity that we get at where I work. Everyone here found at least a little humor in the similarity, not the original acts. This included some left leaners.

Lighten up.
post #472 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
Considering that at least two (and possibly as many as ten) of the prisoners who have died in US custory are being treated as having been murdered...I'd say that yes, the abuse of prisoners is on the same level. Murder is murder.

You should know if not from watching all of the cop shows, that all deaths are treated by investigators as murders until that is ruled out. That is a very misleading statement like many others made in AO.
post #473 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
My response to Luca in the Nick Berg thread (modified slightly)




Not even close?

I think you forget that we killed this guy-- and other undocumented prisoners who never received numbers. Right now, the Army is investigating 25 suspicious deaths at Abu Ghraib. Again, the scale of abuses at that camp is much worse than you and other Americans may realize. Conversely, it's something that many vengeful, militant Arabs clearly understand. I would read the indispensable Seymour Hersh's latest piece, "Chain of Command" for a good background.

We?

Who is we?

Not me or anyone I know, check beck a few posts.
post #474 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
You seem to place the value of the abuses of prisoners on the same level with the brutal killing of Nick Berg IMO.

I don't see them as even being close, so no I haven't compared the two.

Now we're getting close. Come on NaplesX, you can do it. Just come out and say it. Hell George Orwell has even written the script for you.

"All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."

All you gotta do is substitute humans for animals and we're there.
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post #475 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Oh please get off the pulpit.

I found that picture in a magazine called Creativity that we get at where I work. Everyone here found at least a little humor in the similarity, not the original acts. This included some left leaners.

Lighten up.

What's funny is that you see similarity where there is none.

Funny in the 'laugh at' not 'laugh with' way.
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post #476 of 613
There certainly is an essential difference between the horrendous acts abuse perpetrated on prisoners in Abu Ghraib, and an act of prememditated cold-blooded murder by beheading. Taking a human life is a more grave offense from most civilised perspectives.
In any case, both the abusing jailers and the beaheaders are bipedal beasts who should be prosecuted and punished with the fullest harshness a society of law permits.
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post #477 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Who is we?

Not me or anyone I know.

I would personally confront anyone I know for such things.

Don't say we, those guys are not WE!

They will be taken care of in a fair and quick manner. They do not represent all of the good and upright people that I know.

I am mature enough to realise the context of 'We'. And I personally say we, because although I was not there in person to commit this, I am ashamed to be associated to the countries 'we' belong to that produces the morals of the people who did this. 'We' all have some collective responsibility however apparently small in this, and 'we' must ensure that it is rectified. The fact that you seem to have abstracted yourself from 'We' to 'nothing to do with me' quite clearly illustrates to me that If I were to describe your selfishness in appropriate terms, I'd have Fellowship all over my back.
post #478 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by crazychester
Now we're getting close. Come on NaplesX, you can do it. Just come out and say it. Hell George Orwell has even written the script for you.

"All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."

All you gotta do is substitute humans for animals and we're there.

We are dealing with several different issues that some want to lump into one:

1.) Prisoner abuse (alleged)

Not much different to the hazing that goes on in colleges, hell my own cousins abused me and embarrassed me when we were kids. Not that it is right but these kind of things happen. We don't know but maybe these prisoners did something to provoke it. Once again wrong but we don't know all of the details. Some like having those things done to them. S & M anyone?

2. Prisoner murders (alleged)

If proven true, very bad, of course. But no video was taken of the murder and if it can't be proven, it can't be prosecuted. If it can then it should be prosecuted.

Like I said this is yet another issue, even if the same people involved in the abuse are part of it.

Abuse is way different than murder.

3. Cold blooded Murder.

Terrorists committed murder for the world to see, no question if or how they did it, the proof is on the tape. It is hard to question it, unless you want to conjure up some conspiracy thing.

I agree, death is death, but causes differ and so does culpability.
post #479 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by MarcUK
I am mature enough to realise the context of 'We'. And I personally say we, because although I was not there in person to commit this, I am ashamed to be associated to the countries 'we' belong to that produces the morals of the people who did this. 'We' all have some collective responsibility however apparently small in this, and 'we' must ensure that it is rectified. The fact that you seem to have abstracted yourself from 'We' to 'nothing to do with me' quite clearly illustrates to me that If I were to describe your selfishness in appropriate terms, I'd have Fellowship all over my back.

You are wrong IMO. We as responsible humans have the obligation to condemn certain actions and make sure they do not happen if "we" can help it.

However "We" are not responsible for the action taken by a few (I don't care if it is 7 or 100, don't bother with that ridiculous angle).

I certainly will take no, none, zero responsibility for what those idiots and exploiters did other than to say I would or will not let that kind of thing take place in my presence, if I could at all help it.

We are not obligated to take on blame for those actions. For in that case everything is everyones fault everywhere at any given time.
post #480 of 613
Quote:
Originally posted by audiopollution
What's funny is that you see similarity where there is none.

Funny in the 'laugh at' not 'laugh with' way.

I said humorous.

Come on let's not fight about this retarded thing. I thought it was interesting and kinda funny, you didn't. No big deal.
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