this is appalling, abuse of Iraqi prisoners - Page 13

Ok. So at last we see what you are, without the equivocation. No more need be said.

I see no reason to respond to another post of yours, ever. I would urge my fellow AOers to do the same.

There are limits of human decency that transcend "everybody has an opinion.
You are either brain damaged, or, as has been suggested, a sociopath.

You are technically correct, Dr Spock.

Wow, if that is the way you feel, but I am not sure how you came to that conclusion from what I said.

But if that is the way it has to be, it has to be.

Ive been here for over 3 years now, and had a fair share of arguments, some Im not too proud of, and some have gotten well out of hand, I've pretty muched laughed them all away, but for the first time ever, I actually feel totally disgusted by the insensitivity and lack of compassion of another human. To say

1.) Prisoner abuse (alleged)

Not much different to the hazing that goes on in colleges, hell my own cousins abused me and embarrassed me when we were kids. Not that it is right but these kind of things happen. We don't know but maybe these prisoners did something to provoke it. Once again wrong but we don't know all of the details. Some like having those things done to them. S & M anyone?

is probably the most disgusting thing I have ever read in my entire life. NaplesX is the 1st person ever on my ignore list. I actually hope you meet the same fate as the iraqis, and live - to realise how much of a cunt you are.

ahh, the wonders of fuzzy logic

iraq has WOMD (alledged)
iraq has ties to al quida (very loosely alledged and denied by just about everyone except cheney)

so lets attack


prisioners are abused (alledged? lots of photo evidence)
prisioners are murdered (alledged..but photos and whispers and even so not so whispers)
the few being court martialed are all saying they were told to do these things from high above

so lets do nothing


g


ps it is not hazing when you have absolutely no ability to say no or to leave...if it was you or your family being treated like that while held in your own country against your will by occupation forces, beaten, humilated, starved, attacked by dogs etc, i'm sure you would think of it as "blowing off steam", as "horseplay" etc

While I disagree with addabox about not responding to you, maybe it's the part about the prison actions being just like hazing or S & M that's got his goat.
I mean come on, ever hear of the term consent? Hazing and S & M are both consensual. What happened in Abu Ghraib was obviously not. You really are diminishing those actions with your post, whether you see it or not. Why not just say both are wrong, but murder is worse than abuse? I think most people would agree with that. Why go through the apologetics?

Hell, guys---does this mean we can stop homosexual gang rape in US prisons?

Maybe prisons are a bad thing.\

You guys are very, what is the word I am looking for?.... sensitive.

Yeah, that's the word. I know that the truth hurts (as has been said all too often here) my words are as truthful in that they present other possibilities to what others put forth. I did not assert anything as fact other than what i know personally. It's hard, I know, just breath. It will be fine.

Again, read a little slower if you must, I said these things are bad, and let me add, should be condemned if they are proven to be true. But unlike the terrorist types that killed Nick Berg and hundreds of thousands all over the globe, we have a justice system, even inside our war machine to fairly try legal cases and dole out fair punishment not revenge.

I have faith in that system, and wish that people would let it work. If not then I am not sure what some of you are pushing for.

Did Nick B. deserve his fate. Was it a fair punishment for his "wrongdoings"? Was that really the purpose of that showing? Are we now even with AQ and the terrorists?

These are things I would like to hear some answers on.

Maybe that is where the contention is. I feel that anything you can walk away from is better than death.

How many times have i posted in this thread alone that I think these thing are bad, wrong. Abuse in any form is wrong. That includes the constant verbal abuse found here. But one must separate the abuse by degree. Verbal abuse is less wrong than physical, physical abuse is less wrong than murder, and all degrees in between. Then you have to factor in mitigating circumstances.

This is not really that difficult a thing to grasp IMO.

Of I was to follow some of the logic presented here, a lot of the people would be deemed no better then the terrorists by that definition.

i simply fighting for context over emotion. And like many things discussed here in AO we don't know the whole story, yet many are jumping to far fetch conclusions, while based on logic, may not be based on the true facts.

wrong thread, but i will answer


of course the berg thing was awful, of course he didn't deserve it...i said so in the other, correct thread...i even wished the people a long trip to hell for it

but we didn't use our justice system against iraq, we used our warriors

we did not haze these prisioners, we systematically abused them

and though i really do feel for the berg family, i also really feel for the families of the 10's of thousands of iraqi people that bushie has had killed in iraq...

what they did to berg is brutal and inhuman, but so is dropping bombs on pregnant women and children...yet that happens in war almost every day

g


quote:
i simply fighting for context over emotion. And like many things discussed here in AO we don't know the whole story, yet many are jumping to far fetch conclusions, while based on logic, may not be based on the true facts.

sort of like going to war because iraq was a direct threat to america...kinda like going to war with iraq because they had WOMD

last bit...as i see you are from the school of "if you're going to get raped, you might as well lay back and enjoy it"

you say abuse is wrong here, but then you liken it to hazing and your cousin being mean to you...that is what scares us "sensitive" people here...either addabox is correct and you are a sociopath who doesn't know right from wrong, or you are merely a mean spirited 13 year old...either way it is not very interesting to hear from either...so perhaps adding to the ignore list is the best path...

g

And you reached that conclusion how?

Perhaps you should put me on your ignore list, because you are ignoring what I say and have said when you post accusations and assertions about what I am or what I beleive, especially when I have said exactly the opposite of what you are asserting.

I am simply putting forth my beleifs and thoughts here, that happen to differ from yours, rightly or wrongly.

I won't take the sociopath thing personally, because you did not directly call me that, but I will remind you that people have suggested and asked that I be banned for telling someone to "wise up". But you are not me, and your posts show that you are probably glad about that, and that is cool, I guess.

Perspective and balance is key when trying to understand these kinds of things. Take these statistics into account:

Stories by the big 3 news outlets (CBS, ABC, NBC):

Since January about the mass graves of 300,000+ Iraqis: 5 stories

Since prisoner abuse story broke: 58 stories and counting.

Maybe, I say maybe this is being blown out of perportion a bit. Then again, I am probably just a 13 year old psycopath.

Hmm?!?!?

let me see . . . complete ignorance of how what he sees might be objectionable . . .

yeah, my bet is some sort of 'condition'

perhaps NaplesX should look up 'sociopath' while also trying introspection and pondering human decency


. . . not to say considering the standards to which America is supposed to hold itself up to . . .

How about a quick vote on this one?

Sociopath or mean spirited 13 year old?

Which fits better?

Edit: why bother

Considering a lot of those beasts are prison wardens in civil life, I think I'd rather not know what is going on in US prisons day after day. They obviously had some experience...

In my view the difference between AlQuaida and US troops is in numbers, not quality.

*Sigh* Don't make me lock another thread.

the republican pundits on fox news mocked the concept that this treatment would be shocking...

yeah, way to go fox news... any one else think that this treatment wasn't shocking?

Link

Original german link

I guess this is what Naples and other apologist are talking about when they talk about "less evil". I'd rather be beheaded quickly than tortured to death slowly...

Oh yeah right, it is only "alleged" - nice to know the torturers are forbidding Iraqis to find facts, so much more convenient.

hey buon, i know tempers can get heated around here, but having just left a guestbook/message board of a radio personality i used to listen (back when all he did was sports... now he's trying to channel hannity) to now talk with fans about how the "ragheads had it coming to them" and "yahweh, not allah!", i just want to say that appleinsider is SANE by comparison. i think watching 9-11 on continuous loop for weeks on end made some people truly mental.

there are some truly terrifying nutjobs out there, but at least the people i disagree with here seem to have a brain and a logic to their opinions.

Hey! That's either a great photoshop job, or leftovers from Hussiens regiem!!

But Seriously, the glowsitck abuse will end. The people who abused the prisoners will get their Asses kicked by UCMJ, not to mention those involved in the adultery cases and orgies.

The "torture" will probably continue. Waterboarding, tempature treatments, and the Rick James 24/7 at 120 decibels looks to be rough treatment. In the US (and Europe?), where you can get your kids taken away from you for spanking them; it shouldn't be suprising that there are many on these boards that don't have the stomach for this type of coercion.

I guess the alternative is to ask captured bad guys nicely for intel, then simply through more bodies at al Qeada, er, I mean the insurgents. But then I guess we should not be Iraq at all, or even Afganistan---business as usuall has worked so well in the ME, why change policy that's not broken? After all it's not as if that tension has boiled over to Amercian shores. We should clone superhuman intellects such as Richard Clark, people who can do no wrong, install them in homeland security and simply intercept attack after attack defensivley for the indefinite future.

Back on topic:

This is a must read article in the New Yorker, by Seymour Hersh:
http://newyorker.com/fact/content/?040524fa_fact

Rumsfeld has got to be toast after this. It doesn't reflect too well on Bush, who recently called him "the best defense sec. America has ever had", or words to that effect. For the sake of the Bush presidency, Rummy should resign.

Right on, bro!

And why leave it at that? Isn't time we started getting really tough with the accused in America? I mean, "innocent till proven guilty" but, c'mon, we all know the score!

Water boarding and sleep deprivation ought to skyrocket conviction rates among inner city nig..... er, I mean blacks. Sure, the pampered pussies of "liberal" America won't have much stomach for it, but we all know which way their gate swings, am I right?

After all, it's either make torture a regular part of how we get business done or resign ourselves to ongoing crime, "investigating" case after case for the indefinite future.

America! Somewhat better than the worst people in the world! IT MAKES ME FUCKING PROUD, I GOTTA SAY.

Before responding to any more of my posts, find your irony detection knob and give it a nudge to the right.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/inter...217973,00.html

Appalling abuse of Afghani prisoners too.

Laughing in the face of Death

As this article says: why were teh people responcible for the death of the man in the photograph not held as accountable as the photographer that snapped the photo?

What photo?

A new photo shown on TV yesterday of a dead Iraqi, who died in custody, and two smiling Americans faces, laughing with thumbs up signs over the bodies.

It is certainly not a 'frat hazing'

and why stop at the obviouse token trials with the people who were following orders and/or were merely following what was obviously part of 'the climate' of the place?

And for the sake of the Western World Bush should too, but that's another story.

And as to Rumsfeld, if ever I have seen someone who is drunk with the power that so erroneously was handed to him, then it's him. Can you ever forget the spectacle he made of himself on his recent visit to the troops in Iraq, when he exclaimed that his answer to all the criticism levelled against him was, "I don't read the papers", looking around the room, turning his head, grinning insanely, and milking the applause from the soldiers (just what on earth were they thinking?) at the same time. Well that's all right then, Donald

Once again, he proved how totally inept he is in his job.

Sigh... this is just so depressing

- T. I.

[edit: corrected grammatical error]

Guardian article on women prisoners in Abu Ghraib.

Apparently women have been systematically raped and filmed and photographed in various sexual positions. It seems that General Taguba's infamous report confirms the truth of many of these allegations.

The article goes on to say:


And rape them it seems......

Yet more revelations of Abu Ghraib abuses.




Washington Post photos link - may need registering.

This is really fucked up.

I hope this hasn't already been posted, but it includes some new commentary from some of the guards.

A good article that lists incedents that point to institutional abuse:

"James Inhofe, the Oklahoma senator from the Neanderthal wing of the Republican Party, may still believe that the only practitioners of degradation and torture in the U.S. military were seven isolated misfits at Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison. However, stories suggesting something much different continue to pile up:

* Three Iraqi employees of Reuters and one NBC staffer, also an Iraqi, were detained by U.S. forces in January. They claim they were beaten and humiliated in various ways. After three days, they were released without charges.

* The former commander at the Guantanamo prison camp, Brig. Gen. Rick Baccus, says he was relieved of his duties because the Pentagon believed he was too soft on the prisoners. His insistence on humane treatment did not please interrogators who wanted to use harsher methods.

* Thursday, NBC News reported allegations that, at several secret detention facilities in Iraq operated by Delta Force commandos, torture of prisoners is routine and robust.

* Sgt. Samuel Provance, a member of an intelligence battalion stationed at Abu Ghraib, told ABC News the use of torture was not limited to a few renegade MPs. The Army is trying to cover up the fact that abuses are widespread, he said.

* And this from the Los Angeles Times: "Three key witnesses, including a senior officer in charge of interrogations, refused to testify during a secret hearing against an alleged ringleader of the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal on the grounds that they might incriminate themselves."

These and many other reports indicate that treatment of prisoners in violation of the Geneva Conventions is common among U.S. forces dealing with captives in the war on terror. The apparent efforts to hide these activities would lead to the conclusion that somebody knows they are doing something wrong. But somebody also must think it is a necessary wrong or why else would it be such a pervasive practice?

Here's a Burning Question that needs to be answered by all of us, not just our warriors:

Is torture always a betrayal of American values or are there times when it is justified?"

Now clearly, the Imhoffs of this world, and on these baords, think that betraying American values to get some information (in order, ultimately, to keep American 'Values' safe) is worth it . . . I think that America should strive for higher standards . . . or at least make sure that the prisoners that you are going to interogate are really the sort to have information and even then use only means that are not physically harmful or psychologically long term harmful.

One cannot betray something and expect to retain it.

June 30th handover: There's no way it's going to happen is it ?

Another issue just came up - and this is the killer - it seems the US and UK are stipulating their troops have immunity from prosecution by the new Iraqi government.

I guess there are worse things to come out that the Iraqis might find post June 30.

Basically all this abuse lost the US the war. Right there. Just remains to be seen what the fallout is. Can't be less than years of civil war.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2...2/132018.shtml

I find it very interesting the a civil libertarian like Alan Dershowitz seems to not be so troubled about the U.S. torturing terror suspects. Please don't make it out that conservative Republicans are the only people who feel that there are times when such tactics are necessary.

It is a tough world out there and you cannot say with any certainty that such tactics haven't prevented new terrorist attacks from occurring. We are quickly approaching the three year mark in which we have had no new terrorist attacks on U.S. soil and I think the President deserves considerable credit for that. Now you all here aren't so naive as to think that this is the first time that the U.S. has used questionable tactics in wartime do you? This is not some new Bush Administration idea. All through history we can find examples of things that we can be less than proud of - the internment of Japanese-Americans in World War II, the Bay of Pigs, My Lai, etc. - and the list by no means ends there. I think people are being way too quick to judge this whole situation. It is a big story to be sure but there is a lot of other stuff going on that should be reported as well and it is time that some of the more positive aspects of this war be told. The American people deserve no less than the complete truth - not just what the liberal press wants us to hear.

In any case, it is not as easy as you think to identify who is a high value terrorist target and one who is not. Things can get pretty murky over there. I mean look at this whole Chalabi deal. He is just another example in a long line of people the U.S. has befriended through the years that turned out to be a snake. That is the way life can be sometimes - the world is a big place and it operates quite differently in places like the Middle East or Asia. If you think corruption is big here in the U.S. then think again. I mean, it is pretty clear that South Vietnamese President Ngo Dinh Diem was assassinated as part of a U.S. backed coup in 1966 - so don't think for a minute that what has happened in Iraq is something we have not seen before. Clearly the U.S has a history of sometimes being too naive - they don't realize when somebody is using them personal gain rather than for more altruistic reasons. The key is learning from those mistakes and supporting the right people in the future.