this is appalling, abuse of Iraqi prisoners - Page 3

Meanwhile in a further development Brigadier General Janis Karpinski has claimed that the reservists and lower ranking officers under investigation are taking the fall for military intelligence operatives who were in charge of the cells where the abuse took place and were "in and out of the cells 24 hours a day"

Not to be an ass, but 1 Euro = 100 (Euro)Cent. Only the French can use "Centimes" because "cent" is also the translation of "hunderd".

Not only are those pictures from 60 minutes, but kimmitt, in the interview discussing the photos, said it was not isolated.

Then we have the fact that it's front page news just about everywhere and Hersh's new article.

You know, you could get your info from somewhere other than AO and then come back here to discuss it like the rest of us are doing.

No, no, the beauty of living the EU is that you can use anything you like, because we are all one big happy family now

And also, maybe I was in France (with Powerdoc) when I posted

- T. I.

That's what I figured. Many articles mentioned them and it concerned me because I didn't think they were real.

However, I've also heard there are photos of women prisoners forced to simulated or take part in sex acts on male prisoners, but have not been able to find them.

Having now seen the "Daily Mirror" and closely studied the published pictures, I have serious doubts as to the authenticity of them. They look too posed and still, and too well exposed, lacking any kind of dynamics that would occur in such a situation.

They do in fact look as if someone had "perfectly" set them up: "Just hold your foot in front his face." CLICK.

No. I don't buy it.

I wonder what other people who have seen the originals in the papers as opposed to on the Net think. Not that it makes any difference, the damage having been done already.

- T. I.

Any american who does these atrocious things should be hung by their balls.

would that include you then? or would you not do the hanging?

While the female rape shots are clearly fake, it is hard to believe that woman have not been abused as well as men.

I wish that the American people cared about these violations, but I am afraid that they do not. Perhaps if the victims were white Europeans, but Africans, asians, latin americans and Arabs really do not count to mainstream America. Just my opinion of course.....

Alleast we can be sure these abuses were not wide spread. The US gov would never lie....

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...d=542&ncid=716

ooh me, me... I'll volunteer and since I'm Dutch the above doesn't apply to me


..or better put them on trial in The Hague.... I'd would like to see a US invasion of the Netherlands

They weren't "clearly fake" to giant or burningwheel, who took them as real (because it so neatly fit their view of the world).

Anyway, we can't play a game of "it is hard to believe that such and such isn't happening". That is endless and unfair mental masturbation and gets us nowhere. We can all imagine a lot of things, but it doesn't mean we can present them as fact or assume them to be real and make decisions based on fantasy.
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Everyone in the U.S. cares. There is no defense. No one wants this. Even if only for selfish practical reasons, if not moral ones. Even the most right wing people want them hanged because it jeopardizes the entire war. Some things transcend party politics and are simply wrong and not tolerated.

Don't confuse America's tolerance of torture for gathering terrorist information (which this wasn't) with tolerance of doing needlessly humiliating things to prisoners "for fun".
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Seymour Hersh is on CNN making excuses. Interrogation my ass. And he's saying the soldiers were made to do this by higher ups? Bullshit. (Sorry, I'll read the transcript later, I might be wrong)

Or maybe they're not as used to seeing porn as some others...

I'd be too distracted by factual errors to enjoy that site.

"Hey, she's Italian, not Iraqi, and why are they all in woodland camouflage in Iraq? ARRRRRGGHHH!"

The British troops, who have been (suposedly) far more tolerant of Iraqis, their customs and religious beliefs than their American counterparts are also implicated in more cases of torture and murder:
http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/tm_...name_page.html

And here is Seymour Hersh's article in The NewYorker:
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

How to make friends and influence people....

Are we ever going to start getting abuse data from sources other than the MIRROR and MAIL UK tabloids? I'll feel a lot better about it when there aren't giant bikini photos/Page 3 girls juxtaposed next to the abuse photos.

What next, Bat Boy Sodomizes Iraqi Prisoners??

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And he's saying the soldiers were made to do this by higher ups? Bullshit.
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Why?

Because you can't deny the glee and joy these soldiers are expressing. They are doing this willingly. Maybe they were told to do it but they are as guilty as their superiors then.

Are you asking that because you want the higher ups to also be implicated? I'm not excluding the higher ups from being involved, I'm merely trying to not be dismissive of the actions of the people actually in the photographs.

Did you think I was trying to defend the higher ups?

I can't glean what your point is if you are only going to post single words.

johnq:


Then it's not "bullshit".


You said, "And he's saying the soldiers were made to do this by higher ups? Bullshit."

Try reading the article that started all this:
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

Taguba backed up his assertion by citing evidence from sworn statements to Army C.I.D. investigators. Specialist Sabrina Harman, one of the accused M.P.s, testified that it was her job to keep detainees awake, including one hooded prisoner who was placed on a box with wires attached to his fingers, toes, and penis. She stated, "MI wanted to get them to talk. It is Graner and Fredericks job to do things for MI and OGA to get these people to talk."

This isn't some wacky show about teenagers playing pranks on each other behind the principles back.

The inquiry widens.

Brig. Gen. Janis L. Karpinski, the commanding officer at the facility, says military intelligence ran the cell block where this stuff occurred.

At least there is an investigation and outrage. For a while there it was starting to look like one of the things "9/11 changed forever" was America's appetite for torture.

All you had to do was yell "terrorist" and all bets are off, cause, after all, if one guy in the 100 you are interrogating knows something that could conceivably lead to thwarting a terrorist attack, then God understands if you attach electrodes to the the testicles of the whole group. Certainly Mr. and Mrs. America understand, because to attack the "homeland" is the most grievous thing that ever happened in the history of the planet and permits literally anything in response.

I think maybe MI got a little ahead of the curve.

Ok, this is an issue of semantics based on my poorly chosen sentence structure.

"Bullshit" is referring to the obvious fact that the soldiers in the photographs were clearly enjoying the abuse, amused by it and even (stupidly) boldly proud of it (to not be ashamed to be in pictures where they are identifiable). The "Bullshit" was meant to deny that they were reluctantly doing something they were "forced" or "ordered" to do. "Bullshit" that they did not gleefully participate.

Not "Bullshit" that someone told them to do this stuff. I said "Bullshit" to not let the participants in the pictures get off the hook not "Bullshit" in the sense that "no one told them to do this".

Ordered or not, their obvious enjoyment negates any sympathy they might have gotten were they "forced" to do it by higher ups.

backpedal folks---face it giant, you got suckered by a few facts buried in some hysteria---useful hysteria for the left, but hysteria all the same. Hysteria used and spun for maximum effect agianst the Bush and the Iraq war. Nothing more--nothing less. You people are so hyped up you were willing to look at porn and take it as "evidence."

(As for lapping up "60-minutes" "reporting"---I'll pass on being suckered for Viacom's ideology and bottom line.)

Honestly, use some discretion! Thank the Lord, the Universtiy of Colorado wasn't in Iraq doing any recruiting.

You obviously did not see either paper.

- T. I.

For the love of God, follow some of the links that have been posted. A full blown investigation is underway. Bush himself has said he is shocked and dismayed. The military is assuring our allies that this isn't representative of US policy.

Sort it out, then come back.

I said from my first post that the people who did this are up a creek. It's a crime---it will be handled by UMCJ (and more harshly than for a civilian BTW).

Minus the whipped-up frenzy---what's to sort out?

Take a peak at my last link. The investigation is broadening to include the practices of the Military Intelligence apparatus in Iraq. There is some evidence that torture and inhumane treatment has been systematic, that the MI has carried forward the techniques from Guantanamo, broadly tolerated as part of "The War on Terror", into Iraq, where suddenly people seem to be remembering that torture didn't use to be part of the American tool kit.

I guess you seized on the porn stuff as somehow rendering the whole affair the stuff of liberal hysteria, something that will quickly dispatched by dealing with "a few bad eggs".

Implying (oh hell, outright claiming) that when the news is carried on a Viacom outlet it is dismissible (because of, well, I'm not sure what, liberal bias and irrational hatred of the president, I guess), isn't really an effective rhetorical technique, in that it makes you sound like a crazy shut-in with "theories".

I wouldn't be suprised if MI is using breaking out the rubber hose on the hard cases----it wouldn't suprise me one bit. But this nonsense that the Iraqi prisons are one big rerun of Deliverance isn't rational.


Try going a month without TV of any kind and tell me who is hooked (and on what).

(or maybe I've read to one-to-many marketing books)

I read both websites, not papers. What I said was hyperbole - intentional exaggeration to make a point.

I don't care how factual they are, how credible the actual sources are, those two papers are mostly lowbrow tabloid junk, and that I'll wait, thank you, for other more credible sites/papers/channels to report such things before believing it.

But then I am always skeptical, in some percentage, as it should be.

Straw man. Not being claimed. The claim is that abuse of prisoners is more than a few isolated incidents, but rather a strategy of information gathering techniques implemented by MI.

As you seem to allow for by "not being suprised if MI is using breaking out the rubber hose on the hard cases". Which begs the question, what does it take to surprise you, since that would be a clear violation of the Geneva convention and an appalling betrayal of the promise of American justice.



Not quite sure what.... never mind.

johnq:

Do you really think most Americans care about this? I don't think that most Americans care at all what happens to a bunch of Arabs nor do they care what the Arab world thinks. We are in a "the hell with them kill them if they don't like it" state of mind in this country right now. World opinion matters little to the American voter and "W" knows it


Also:

My comment that the female rape images were "clearly fake" was based on the fact that you pointed out where they came from.

....piles of naked prisoners?

.....a 105-pound female soldier in a prison (handling prisoners--What?!)?


this is much different that point to porn and implying that the troops are, en mas, raping Iraqi prisoners---which, I think, all too many on this thread were willing to accept.


And also, you guys are ruining the only three hours a week I get to spend playing Halo---a crime, in and of itself.

*grabs sniper rifle and leaves thread*

Albasrah.com's lies are spreading. I've seen several forums now go needlessly off-track, with people becoming thoroughly enraged over the PORN pics, mistakenly believed as real.

There is now no way to put out the fire of these Albasrah.com lies now, once the idiot on the street hears about it from word-of-mouth via 1000 people's distorted tellings.

It will be as distorted and propagated as the Susan Block "Rape of Iraq" column whose metaphorical "rape" was misunderstood by the all-too-literal, too-credulous Arab/Muslim/Middle Eastern/South Asian/Islamists/whatever else you want to call them.

Thankfully each forum eventually has someone debunk that site. I certainly can't chase them all down.

What a waste of outrage, when so many real things are going on. Waste of focus. Waste of effort. And only makes people even more jaded and leery and skeptical of real cases.

Neither did preemptive war.

You tell me. (Pardon the rhetorical questions).

Year: 2000
Voting Age Population (VAP): 205,815,000
Total Vote: 105,399,313
% VAP Voted: 51.2

Did "Most Americans" (eligible to vote), in fact vote? (Yes)

Gore: 50,996,116 (48 %)
Bush: 50,456,169 (48 %)
Other: 3,874,040 (4 %)

Did "most Americans" vote FOR Gore? (Yes)
(or put the other way)
Did "most Americans" NOT vote for Bush? (Yes)

Can we assume that most Democrats do "care about this" (Iraqi abuse)? (Yes)

Can we assume that most Democrats do care "what happens to a bunch of Arabs"? (Yes)

Can we assume that most Democrats do care what the Arab world thinks? (Yes)

Can we assume that at least some Republicans also care (just to be fair to them)? (Yes)

Can we assume that most Democrats are not in a "the hell with them kill them if they don't like it" state of mind in this country right now"? (Yes)

Can we assume that to most Democrats, "world opinion" does matter? (Yes)

Can we assume that the Naderites also mostly have similar opinions as the above Democrats? (Yes)

Even in the most biased, fantasy-based, cynical view of Republicans, in which 100% of all Republicans are indifferent to even hostile to the above issues, we are still left with a majority of Americans that do at least theoretically care about those issues, if only based on their voting choice.

I'm sorry many didn't vote or couldn't. But I'd say that a majority of the votes (despite not being what actually elects our President) at least suggests that most voters have a Democratic viewpoint and we can further assume that that viewpoint does not condone such abuse, nor is it indifferent to world/Arab/Muslim affairs.

It is a sickness of the mind to paint all of America as flag waving Bush clones. It simply isn't true. Bad habit to get into. That's collective punishment. That leads to extremist "All Americans are evil because of what Bush does" mindsets.

I just think it's overly cynical to say things like "World opinion matters little to the American voter and 'W' knows it". There is outrage on every channel. Every blog. Every news site.

Call me cynical, but for every "shocked and outraged" opinion, there is an equal and opposite "kill those fzcking sand-niggers" type of reaction. After all, a majority of Americans still know that Saddam and Iraq did 9-11, and Iraq is the centerpiece of Bush's "war on terror".

Fox News told them, so it must be true.

Fox News tells you that "a majority of Americans still know that Saddam and Iraq did 9-11, and Iraq is the centerpiece of Bush's 'war on terror'" and it's true?

Why is Fox News so reliable ( ) for polling if they are so unreliable for reporting?

One the one hand, Fox News "lies" to Americans, yet, on the otherhand, when they do a poll that reflects negatively on Americans, they are suddenly a useful resource?

Everything Fox News does is to be viewed a leery eye and taken with a grain of salt the size of Crawford, including/especially their polls.

Picking and choosing from Fox News resources to prove a point, especially if you think or know the data is likely flawed, skewed, incorrect or biased is just dishonest.

I DON'T have TV. I am much happier (eh, whatever) for it.

I think that since we have been "delivering" this shit on Iraqi's for so long (seems to be over a year or even back all the way to Afganistan) this HAS to have been passed on into the general Iraqi population and insurgents of these abuses...hell, if it has been...ok, I'll say it...the attack and mutilations of those contractors was justified...I learned from experience that if you keep poking a wasps nest enough...you get your ass stung and stung a lot.

Military Intelligence...two words that shouldn't be said together in one sentence.

Maybe Fox has conducted polls? Can you point me to one? I didn't quote a Fox poll. The ones I recall were CNN, and others...*not* Fox. Quit misquoting me please!


Again...I wasn't quoting any Fox poll. But America's support for the war was largely as a result of (especially) Fox perpetual linking of 9-11 with Iraq, as well as a boatload of other garbage ...for example Saddam Hussein's drones loaded with bio weapons which could reach America and had everyone and their cousins scared sh¡tless, stripping the hardware store shelves of duct-tape and plastic sheeting.


Yes, there I agree! But Cheney has other ideas! He commented on Fox the other day, saying that they were "the most reliable" media source!!!!! (yikes)


Your point is moot. I wasnt quoting any Fox poll. Try again.

And....when I said: "but Fox told us, so it must be true"....that was sarcasm...and pretty obvious I would have thought.



And from Artman:


Contractors...thats a generality. It could mean anyone who is in Iraq doing a job of work. In this case, these guys were supposedly mercenaries (read thugs), paid for by private enterprise, doing the work of soldiers, but without having to keep to the military codes of conduct and professional discipline expected from troops in the US Army. The mercenaries are the 2nd largest military contingent in Iraq, outnumbering the British forces there.

And the SPIN has begun!

""There is no -- no -- evidence of systematic abuse in this system at all. We've paid a lot of attention, of course, in Guantanamo, as well," Myers said, referring to the U.S. detention facility in Cuba for suspects captured in connection with the war on terror. "We review all the interrogation methods.

"Torture is not one of the methods that we're allowed to use and that we use. I mean, it's just not permitted by international law, and we don't use it."

STOP LYING GODAMMITT!

You obviously got the notion that "a majority of Americans still know that Saddam and Iraq did 9-11, and Iraq is the centerpiece of Bush's 'war on terror'" from somewhere, and since you are mocking that notion, I was left to assume that the source was also being mocked. Since everyone's favorite whipping boy is Fox News (with good reason, btw, I detest it), it's hardly a stretch to think you were referring to something like this Fox News poll:

Poll: Steady Support for Action Against Iraq

...or similar.

I apologize for assuming my way through your vagueness. I stand corrected.



Largely??? Fox?? Fox News Channel reaches around 3 million or so viewers prime time. (CNN a bit less than 2 million).

Talk to me about ABC (8m), NBC (8m) and CBS (7m) first, (approx. for the big 3 network news shows) where Americans do "largely" get their TV news from. The hottest shows going rarely get above 20 million viewers. You act like all 217.8 million people age 18 and over all watch Fox News Channel.



Something like 20% of Americans don't even get cable or have satellite. Fuzzy figures, but still, kinda hard for Fox News to be so influential that way. Fox News is not the U.S.A.



Why do you assume I didn't think you were being sarcastic? I knew you were. Hence my argument. But it is moot, agreed, since you weren't citing any particular poll. But I did know it was sarcasm, otherwise it wouldn't have been remarkable.